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The Forsaken Grind (Destiny)

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, September 17, 2018, 09:29 (2236 days ago)

There's been a lot of talk about the grind and leveling in Forsaken, so I thought I'd look into exactly how much time its taking me to progress towards raid level.

Using this website, I did a little number crunching and determined that since the launch of Forsaken, I've spent slightly more than 75 hours playing Destiny 2 on the Xbox One. So, basically a 2nd full time job. This is way more time than I usually spend playing videogames, but the release of Forsaken happened to coincide with my daughter going away on a trip, so I found myself with a lot more spare time than usual.

So, while I'm nowhere near the kinds of hours that the professional streamers put in to the game, it's safe to say I've sunk a lot more time than the average player.

Here's where I'm at so far:

Titan: 531

Hunter: 531

Warlock: 519


These are all the max potential level of each of my characters (meaning they each need to equip my 3 highest-level weapons to hit these ranks).


I ran my Titan pretty much exclusively during the first week of Forsaken, then ran Titan and Hunter most of the 2nd week. I only just ran my Warlock through the campaign over the past couple days... she's already 519, so getting up to the 500-520 range has clearly gotten faster with each successive character, but then seems to slow down to a crawl around 520-530.

Most of my time has been spent doing activities that can increase the light level of my characters, with a few little detours here and there. I certainly haven't done every single daily and weekly milestone on every character. I did them all with my Titan during the first week, but as I've spread my playtime across multiple characters, its meant missing a few opportunities for powerful engrams on each character because there just aren't enough hours in each day for me to get everything on every character.

It also appears that the act of leveling up is not as simple as it first appears. Not all "powerful rewards" are equal, so to speak. Powerful engrams from different sources appear to have different "soft caps" tied to them. In short, they'll all have the potential to increase your light level, but some drops will provide more of an increase than others, depending on your current level at the time of attaining these drops. This is all quite complicated, and not explained explicitly through the game's interface. These nuances, combined with good old fashioned RNG, could lead to substantially different rates of power increase for different players.

So, what target Light Levels are important in this expansion? Most of the activities within the Dreaming City are 540-560, although we've already encountered at least one enemy who is 585. There's also the Nightfalls, which I believe are 540. And then there's the raid. I believe the final boss is 580.

With all this in mind, and with the expectation that I won't be putting in the kinds of hours going forward that I have in the past 2 weeks, I'll be surprised if I hit 565 before Halloween. Just an estimate, obviously. RNG could swing in either direction. I mention 565 specifically because that's about where I'll probably feel comfortable raiding. I could certainly beat the first encounter or 2 long before that, but I don't like starting activities that I can't finish.


For the purposes of this post, I'm not going to voice any judgements on whether any of this is good or bad. Just wanted to illustrate the amount of time it is taking for a "hardcore player" (<- not a term I like, but I think we all know what I mean by it) to climb up this level grind. I might reply to this post with some thoughts on the nature of the grind, but for now, I'll leave it at that.


*edit: formatting

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The Forsaken Grind

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, September 17, 2018, 09:32 (2236 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY
edited by Cody Miller, Monday, September 17, 2018, 09:36

For the purposes of this post, I'm not going to voice any judgements on whether any of this is good or bad.

I will. It's bad.

I've always said Destiny was fun with bullshit mixed in. Forsaken's fun is more fun, but the bullshit is stinkier. Why can't we just have the fun?

FYI I am 20 hours played, and at 512.

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The Forsaken Grind

by Blackt1g3r @, Login is from an untrusted domain in MN, Monday, September 17, 2018, 09:57 (2236 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

I'm 528 now and I think I've spent a similar amount of time. Personally, I'm annoyed because it's going to take so long for people to want to do the new raid since we're normal people around here, not streamers. I don't want to be locked out of fun activities. I think Bungie wants the grind to be long though and I don't think it's because they want everyone to spend the same amount of time the streamers spend each week in Destiny. I think they want the content to stretch out for the average person up until the next set of DLC comes out so people can't complain about running out of things to do. Personally, I don't think stretching the grind out is the right way to accomplish that. The better way is to build enough content to keep people engaged and make sure what is there is fun to do more than once.

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The Forsaken Grind

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Monday, September 17, 2018, 10:22 (2236 days ago) @ Blackt1g3r

I'm 528 now and I think I've spent a similar amount of time. Personally, I'm annoyed because it's going to take so long for people to want to do the new raid since we're normal people around here, not streamers. I don't want to be locked out of fun activities. I think Bungie wants the grind to be long though and I don't think it's because they want everyone to spend the same amount of time the streamers spend each week in Destiny. I think they want the content to stretch out for the average person up until the next set of DLC comes out so people can't complain about running out of things to do. Personally, I don't think stretching the grind out is the right way to accomplish that.

I do think it's annoying it's going to be awhile to do the raid... but I'm also kinda okay with that. Honestly, I jump in to have fun and burning though the fun just to play the raid doesn't seem fun to me. I'm still very much enjoying all the content of Destiny. I'm sure once I slow down and still don't have the Light level to play the raid then maybe I'll change my mind.

The better way is to build enough content to keep people engaged and make sure what is there is fun to do more than once.

I agree! In an ideal world it would be great if there was more content, but content is the hardest and has the most cost out of anything they can do. Content takes a TON of hours to do. More hours or employees means more money and that has to fall on someone...

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The Forsaken Grind

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, September 17, 2018, 10:26 (2236 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

I'm 528 now and I think I've spent a similar amount of time. Personally, I'm annoyed because it's going to take so long for people to want to do the new raid since we're normal people around here, not streamers. I don't want to be locked out of fun activities. I think Bungie wants the grind to be long though and I don't think it's because they want everyone to spend the same amount of time the streamers spend each week in Destiny. I think they want the content to stretch out for the average person up until the next set of DLC comes out so people can't complain about running out of things to do. Personally, I don't think stretching the grind out is the right way to accomplish that.


I do think it's annoying it's going to be awhile to do the raid... but I'm also kinda okay with that. Honestly, I jump in to have fun and burning though the fun just to play the raid doesn't seem fun to me. I'm still very much enjoying all the content of Destiny. I'm sure once I slow down and still don't have the Light level to play the raid then maybe I'll change my mind.

The better way is to build enough content to keep people engaged and make sure what is there is fun to do more than once.


I agree! In an ideal world it would be great if there was more content, but content is the hardest and has the most cost out of anything they can do. Content takes a TON of hours to do. More hours or employees means more money and that has to fall on someone...

One might argue that the length of the grind should be based around the amount of content they have to work with. If you finish the campaign, and the only thing between that point and the raid is a patrol zone with a few unique little missions and a strike, then perhaps a player should be roughly raid-ready by the time they've seen and done everything the new zone has to offer.

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The Forsaken Grind

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Monday, September 17, 2018, 10:36 (2236 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

I'm 528 now and I think I've spent a similar amount of time. Personally, I'm annoyed because it's going to take so long for people to want to do the new raid since we're normal people around here, not streamers. I don't want to be locked out of fun activities. I think Bungie wants the grind to be long though and I don't think it's because they want everyone to spend the same amount of time the streamers spend each week in Destiny. I think they want the content to stretch out for the average person up until the next set of DLC comes out so people can't complain about running out of things to do. Personally, I don't think stretching the grind out is the right way to accomplish that.


I do think it's annoying it's going to be awhile to do the raid... but I'm also kinda okay with that. Honestly, I jump in to have fun and burning though the fun just to play the raid doesn't seem fun to me. I'm still very much enjoying all the content of Destiny. I'm sure once I slow down and still don't have the Light level to play the raid then maybe I'll change my mind.

The better way is to build enough content to keep people engaged and make sure what is there is fun to do more than once.


I agree! In an ideal world it would be great if there was more content, but content is the hardest and has the most cost out of anything they can do. Content takes a TON of hours to do. More hours or employees means more money and that has to fall on someone...


One might argue that the length of the grind should be based around the amount of content they have to work with. If you finish the campaign, and the only thing between that point and the raid is a patrol zone with a few unique little missions and a strike, then perhaps a player should be roughly raid-ready by the time they've seen and done everything the new zone has to offer.

True! But people approach content very differently. You might also argue that your statement is already true for some people. As I haven't explored all the content and I'm not raid ready yet I can't actually say that either is true or not! So maybe by the time I am raid ready I haven't completely explored the content up to the raid. Will people say that I grinded out content I've already done? Or will I still be enjoying the content I have? In my mind it's all relative to the person and the content.

So far, I honestly am not worried about a content drought while I'm leveling for the raid. This is because every time I hop in to level up, I am enjoying the content regardless of whether I've done it before or I've never seen it before. The only time I would be worried is if I was required to do the same boring thing over and over again. That to me is the definition of a grind.

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The Forsaken Grind

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, September 17, 2018, 10:40 (2236 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

I'm 528 now and I think I've spent a similar amount of time. Personally, I'm annoyed because it's going to take so long for people to want to do the new raid since we're normal people around here, not streamers. I don't want to be locked out of fun activities. I think Bungie wants the grind to be long though and I don't think it's because they want everyone to spend the same amount of time the streamers spend each week in Destiny. I think they want the content to stretch out for the average person up until the next set of DLC comes out so people can't complain about running out of things to do. Personally, I don't think stretching the grind out is the right way to accomplish that.


I do think it's annoying it's going to be awhile to do the raid... but I'm also kinda okay with that. Honestly, I jump in to have fun and burning though the fun just to play the raid doesn't seem fun to me. I'm still very much enjoying all the content of Destiny. I'm sure once I slow down and still don't have the Light level to play the raid then maybe I'll change my mind.

The better way is to build enough content to keep people engaged and make sure what is there is fun to do more than once.


I agree! In an ideal world it would be great if there was more content, but content is the hardest and has the most cost out of anything they can do. Content takes a TON of hours to do. More hours or employees means more money and that has to fall on someone...


One might argue that the length of the grind should be based around the amount of content they have to work with. If you finish the campaign, and the only thing between that point and the raid is a patrol zone with a few unique little missions and a strike, then perhaps a player should be roughly raid-ready by the time they've seen and done everything the new zone has to offer.


True! But people approach content very differently. You might also argue that your statement is already true for some people. As I haven't explored all the content and I'm not raid ready yet I can't actually say that either is true or not! So maybe by the time I am raid ready I haven't completely explored the content up to the raid. Will people say that I grinded out content I've already done? Or will I still be enjoying the content I have? In my mind it's all relative to the person and the content.

So far, I honestly am not worried about a content drought while I'm leveling for the raid. This is because every time I hop in to level up, I am enjoying the content regardless of whether I've done it before or I've never seen it before. The only time I would be worried is if I was required to do the same boring thing over and over again. That to me is the definition of a grind.

Well said. I'm in the same place as you in terms of how much I'm enjoying the new content. At the same time, I have this feeling in my head something along the lines of "I'm ready for the next activity", but that activity (the raid) is a loooooooooong way out of my reach. I don't yet know how that will shake out over the next few weeks/months.

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The Forsaken Grind

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Monday, September 17, 2018, 11:22 (2236 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

I'm 528 now and I think I've spent a similar amount of time. Personally, I'm annoyed because it's going to take so long for people to want to do the new raid since we're normal people around here, not streamers. I don't want to be locked out of fun activities. I think Bungie wants the grind to be long though and I don't think it's because they want everyone to spend the same amount of time the streamers spend each week in Destiny. I think they want the content to stretch out for the average person up until the next set of DLC comes out so people can't complain about running out of things to do. Personally, I don't think stretching the grind out is the right way to accomplish that.


I do think it's annoying it's going to be awhile to do the raid... but I'm also kinda okay with that. Honestly, I jump in to have fun and burning though the fun just to play the raid doesn't seem fun to me. I'm still very much enjoying all the content of Destiny. I'm sure once I slow down and still don't have the Light level to play the raid then maybe I'll change my mind.

The better way is to build enough content to keep people engaged and make sure what is there is fun to do more than once.


I agree! In an ideal world it would be great if there was more content, but content is the hardest and has the most cost out of anything they can do. Content takes a TON of hours to do. More hours or employees means more money and that has to fall on someone...


One might argue that the length of the grind should be based around the amount of content they have to work with. If you finish the campaign, and the only thing between that point and the raid is a patrol zone with a few unique little missions and a strike, then perhaps a player should be roughly raid-ready by the time they've seen and done everything the new zone has to offer.


True! But people approach content very differently. You might also argue that your statement is already true for some people. As I haven't explored all the content and I'm not raid ready yet I can't actually say that either is true or not! So maybe by the time I am raid ready I haven't completely explored the content up to the raid. Will people say that I grinded out content I've already done? Or will I still be enjoying the content I have? In my mind it's all relative to the person and the content.

So far, I honestly am not worried about a content drought while I'm leveling for the raid. This is because every time I hop in to level up, I am enjoying the content regardless of whether I've done it before or I've never seen it before. The only time I would be worried is if I was required to do the same boring thing over and over again. That to me is the definition of a grind.


Well said. I'm in the same place as you in terms of how much I'm enjoying the new content. At the same time, I have this feeling in my head something along the lines of "I'm ready for the next activity", but that activity (the raid) is a loooooooooong way out of my reach. I don't yet know how that will shake out over the next few weeks/months.

Really, I think it's just a "Time will tell" I can debate over what is the worst case and best case scenario, but I can't really equate it to Forsaken yet because, for me, it neither case has happened yet :D

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The Forsaken Grind

by breitzen @, Kansas, Monday, September 17, 2018, 13:49 (2236 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

I'm 528 now and I think I've spent a similar amount of time. Personally, I'm annoyed because it's going to take so long for people to want to do the new raid since we're normal people around here, not streamers. I don't want to be locked out of fun activities. I think Bungie wants the grind to be long though and I don't think it's because they want everyone to spend the same amount of time the streamers spend each week in Destiny. I think they want the content to stretch out for the average person up until the next set of DLC comes out so people can't complain about running out of things to do. Personally, I don't think stretching the grind out is the right way to accomplish that.


I do think it's annoying it's going to be awhile to do the raid... but I'm also kinda okay with that. Honestly, I jump in to have fun and burning though the fun just to play the raid doesn't seem fun to me. I'm still very much enjoying all the content of Destiny. I'm sure once I slow down and still don't have the Light level to play the raid then maybe I'll change my mind.

The better way is to build enough content to keep people engaged and make sure what is there is fun to do more than once.


I agree! In an ideal world it would be great if there was more content, but content is the hardest and has the most cost out of anything they can do. Content takes a TON of hours to do. More hours or employees means more money and that has to fall on someone...


One might argue that the length of the grind should be based around the amount of content they have to work with. If you finish the campaign, and the only thing between that point and the raid is a patrol zone with a few unique little missions and a strike, then perhaps a player should be roughly raid-ready by the time they've seen and done everything the new zone has to offer.


True! But people approach content very differently. You might also argue that your statement is already true for some people. As I haven't explored all the content and I'm not raid ready yet I can't actually say that either is true or not! So maybe by the time I am raid ready I haven't completely explored the content up to the raid. Will people say that I grinded out content I've already done? Or will I still be enjoying the content I have? In my mind it's all relative to the person and the content.

So far, I honestly am not worried about a content drought while I'm leveling for the raid. This is because every time I hop in to level up, I am enjoying the content regardless of whether I've done it before or I've never seen it before. The only time I would be worried is if I was required to do the same boring thing over and over again. That to me is the definition of a grind.


Well said. I'm in the same place as you in terms of how much I'm enjoying the new content. At the same time, I have this feeling in my head something along the lines of "I'm ready for the next activity", but that activity (the raid) is a loooooooooong way out of my reach. I don't yet know how that will shake out over the next few weeks/months.

Same. I'm ready content-wise to play the Raid. But the Power Level is so high and RNG is RNG... so at least my team is OK waiting another couple weeks.

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The Forsaken Grind

by cheapLEY @, Monday, September 17, 2018, 10:43 (2236 days ago) @ Blackt1g3r

I actually think extending the grind IS a decent way to lengthen content . . . if it’s done right.

I love Destiny. I’m totally in for the grind. I will hit the cap eventually.

They shouldn’t have the Raid be the goal of that grind, though. If they had put the Raid at 520, it would have been so much better. That allows most people to experience the Raid in a timely manner. Then hard mode could be 560 or 570 to fill in that final gap, with Iron Banner (and Trials, if it was still around) also being at the top due to level advantages.

If the Raid was 520, it’s not like I’d do the raid then quit playing. I’d do the raid, then keep climbing that ladder. This also ties in to my post about Y1 armor—the more gear and stuff you have to grind for, the longer they can make that part of the game last and have folks feeling like there’s worthwhile stuff to do.

As it is now, I bet tons of people realize how much of a grind it is to get to the raid and just quit playing. I don’t think having to grind to get to thevraud is going to keep people playing, but putting the raid lower would let more people play cool content. This honestly leads me to question Bungie’s motive. It no longer feels like they give a shit if people do the raid. They’ve done a complete 180 on their stance at D2’s launch, where they actively recognized that they want more people to get on there and get it done.

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Can you imagine a REAL race for "World's First?"

by DiscipleN2k @, Edmond, OK, Monday, September 17, 2018, 11:22 (2236 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I actually think extending the grind IS a decent way to lengthen content . . . if it’s done right.

I love Destiny. I’m totally in for the grind. I will hit the cap eventually.

They shouldn’t have the Raid be the goal of that grind, though. If they had put the Raid at 520, it would have been so much better. That allows most people to experience the Raid in a timely manner. Then hard mode could be 560 or 570 to fill in that final gap, with Iron Banner (and Trials, if it was still around) also being at the top due to level advantages.

Imagine this:

*Normal mode starts at 530.

  • Completing the campaign and the first two weeks of activities gets players to 520+ without "grinding"
  • Raid encounters progress as normal (530, 540, 550) so even the enemies in the final encounter are killable, though they are VERY tough (+30 is skulls, not "??", right?).

*The raid launches early Saturday morning (Pacific time, probably).

  • A larger portion of the player base is available at launch time.
  • Players who don't get to play games for a living see a chance to claim the title.
  • Even players who aren't normally the raiding type say, "F it. Why not?" and jump into the race.

If Bungie can keep the servers from melting, the player population surges, people who might typically pass on the grind to reach end-game content get to experience the raid, and Bungie says, "If you liked that, you'll want to get yourself ready for the Prestige raid launching in six (eight, twelve, whatever) weeks. Oh, and because all of you bad-asses took out the threat at the heart of the city, you've shaken things up and there's new stuff to do in the city to prepare for bigger challenges. You kids have fun!"

-Disciple

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That’d be sweet :)

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, September 17, 2018, 11:43 (2236 days ago) @ DiscipleN2k

- No text -

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I like this idea

by breitzen @, Kansas, Monday, September 17, 2018, 13:38 (2236 days ago) @ DiscipleN2k

I approve. I'd even be cool with bumping it out one more week and up another 10 levels. Giving people more time to explore the world and less time power grinding.

The Forsaken Grind

by TheeChaos @, Monday, September 17, 2018, 10:46 (2236 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY


For the purposes of this post, I'm not going to voice any judgements on whether any of this is good or bad. Just wanted to illustrate the amount of time it is taking for a "hardcore player" (<- not a term I like, but I think we all know what I mean by it) to climb up this level grind. I might reply to this post with some thoughts on the nature of the grind, but for now, I'll leave it at that.


I don't mind the grind. We needed a more gradual grind IMO. I don't mind slowly creeping up, so long as the game is fun and keeping me entertained. Most of the MMOs I have played follow this suit: Majority of players aren't grinding the raid on Day 1. To me that's OK!


Understandably, Everyone is excited and eager to get onto the new raid. I know I am!

SO, Lets imagine we were all "raid-ready" light levels this past weekend with the hours you, I and several others have put in thus far. By the end of this weekend we would have either beaten the raid, or played it long enough to get irritated/tired of banging our heads against it. See "The Taken King" raid. Then what?

Forsaken dropped 2 weeks ago tomorrow and alot of people are complaining they can't try the END GAME activity. If you have ever played a different game with Raiding, it takes time to be ready. Yes you can grind your days away to do it, but then what do you have to do until the next content drop? I feel like some people I have talked to just want to check the raid complete box and then go back to wanting more stuff to look forward to. Not everyone feels this way, and I am not even complaining, Destiny is YOUR game, play how you want. I just cant call it an END GAME activity if majority of active players are ready to raid on Day 1. Any other Non-Destiny MMO raiders that can back me up on that?

I am just trying to understand, whats the rush? Why do some people feel that just because they have put in ALOT of time these past 2 weeks, they should be able to do the raid? Maybe it is because that is how it felt in D1 and Destiny 2 expansions. I never really remember much of a grind to be able to do the raids prior to this one, maybe everyone liked that better?

I totally understand the "World's First" bologna Bungie is pushing, but that's all just for money/publicity. I imagine is just big whig corporate execs saying "hey if we push this, we get more attention and therefore more money/advertising. If we do not we "lose" out on all that". It has not made me feel the need to get there any faster. If we can go into END GAME activities 2 weeks into the expac, I would feel somewhat robbed of my money.

These are just my 2 cents, and in no way directed at anyone/group. Help me understand.

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The Forsaken Grind

by cheapLEY @, Monday, September 17, 2018, 10:53 (2236 days ago) @ TheeChaos

I am just trying to understand, whats the rush? Why do some people feel that just because they have put in ALOT of time these past 2 weeks, they should be able to do the raid? Maybe it is because that is how it felt in D1 and Destiny 2 expansions. I never really remember much of a grind to be able to do the raids prior to this one, maybe everyone liked that better?

Because we want to do it blind, and every day that passes now is just more opportunity to be spoiled, for a raid crew to fall apart. The whole notion of an “end game” is asinine. It’s all just the game. End game is arbitrary. They could put the Raid first and make Nightfalls at 580 and then they would be the end game activity.

The Forsaken Grind

by TheeChaos @, Monday, September 17, 2018, 11:04 (2236 days ago) @ cheapLEY


Because we want to do it blind, and every day that passes now is just more opportunity to be spoiled, for a raid crew to fall apart. The whole notion of an “end game” is asinine. It’s all just the game. End game is arbitrary. They could put the Raid first and make Nightfalls at 580 and then they would be the end game activity.

The Blind part I get. Blind Raids are easily the BEST part of my Destiny Experience. I definitely felt just as robbed as others by the spoilery cutscene when you head to the Dreaming City the day after the raid. I still feel that its OK to be a little further away than Day 1 or even Week 1. I'm not sure that there is a middle ground, I know am contradicting myself here.

I disagree its all "asinine". There has to be a higher tier to work towards or whats the point. I do not think just making a "story-mode" level raid and then having a higher light variant is the same. Its like saying Trials should be like Crucible. Not much to work towards if everyone is easily getting there... Maybe I am too competitive. I hope I am at least making sense, if you don't agree with the points.

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The Forsaken Grind

by cheapLEY @, Monday, September 17, 2018, 11:18 (2236 days ago) @ TheeChaos

Honestly, I don’t get it.

Halo didn’t have an endgame, and it was fine. The Witcher 3 doesn’t have an endgame, and it’s fine. There are absolutely better ways to accomplish want Bungie wants, but they’ve chosen the most player unfriendly way to do so.

I get that people like the grind. Hell, I like the grind. I don’t like the best activity in the game being locked behind a huge one. There are other things they could have players work towards, the ability to even attempt the best activity in the game shouldn’t be one of them.

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The Forsaken Grind

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, September 17, 2018, 11:33 (2236 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Honestly, I don’t get it.

Halo didn’t have an endgame, and it was fine. The Witcher 3 doesn’t have an endgame, and it’s fine. There are absolutely better ways to accomplish want Bungie wants, but they’ve chosen the most player unfriendly way to do so.

I get that people like the grind. Hell, I like the grind. I don’t like the best activity in the game being locked behind a huge one. There are other things they could have players work towards, the ability to even attempt the best activity in the game shouldn’t be one of them.

It strikes me that this is the first time that a Destiny raid has been so directly woven into the story of the campaign (with the possible exception of King's Fall), and that seems to make the gap feel even bigger. You arrive at the dreaming city, and Petra says "assemble a team!", and I'm like "... I can't!" lol.

The Forsaken Grind

by TheeChaos @, Monday, September 17, 2018, 11:45 (2236 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Honestly, I don’t get it.

Halo didn’t have an endgame, and it was fine. The Witcher 3 doesn’t have an endgame, and it’s fine. There are absolutely better ways to accomplish want Bungie wants, but they’ve chosen the most player unfriendly way to do so.

I get that people like the grind. Hell, I like the grind. I don’t like the best activity in the game being locked behind a huge one. There are other things they could have players work towards, the ability to even attempt the best activity in the game shouldn’t be one of them.

The Witcher 3 is a great game, but it was a single player experience. You never had to rely on others to accomplish the mission. That is the difference between an MMO and a single player experience. Destiny is right in the middle, or at least tries to be.

I think the issue is more like you said: grinding towards the ability to play the best activity in the game. People feel locked out of fun. The Raids are the best part of Destiny for me. But I also understand its a raid, and apply non-Destiny experience to that. For several people, I think Destiny Raids were their first intro to raids, so I understand why they feel they are being locked out. They never had WoW Raid level experiences.

I'm not comparing WoW to Destiny. I think people think raid=the fun stuff at the end whereas before/outside of Destiny a raid was the hard stuff at the end.

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The Forsaken Grind

by cheapLEY @, Monday, September 17, 2018, 12:41 (2236 days ago) @ TheeChaos

I'm not comparing WoW to Destiny. I think people think raid=the fun stuff at the end whereas before/outside of Destiny a raid was the hard stuff at the end.

The issue is that Bungie keeps moving the damn goalposts. Getting to the raid is different every single time the put one out, so no one has a freaking clue what to expect. They need to find some consistency. At this point I don’t care which direction, just make it clear from the get go what it will take so I can judge whether I want to commit to a blind raid or not. If they want it to be a grind, fine. Make that clear and tell us what the light level will be to start on day one.

+1

by TheeChaos @, Monday, September 17, 2018, 12:58 (2236 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Can't disagree with that. Expectations and communication are something Deej and Bungie have said they will work to get better on. But then come all the hidden mechanic changes to leveling.

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The Forsaken Grind

by Harmanimus @, Monday, September 17, 2018, 16:27 (2236 days ago) @ TheeChaos

I think most people do equate it to “hard stuff” but mechanical complexity or efficiency of execution are a very different kind of hard than fighting to get up to try them. The Raid also is definitely the fun stuff at the end, but that comes from working with a team to overcome a challenge. The problem, as discussed, is everything else around it and how that negatively impacts the overall experience of the community.

Even looking at it from the perspective of other games, I think those games all fail, too, when their initial bar to entry is too severe.

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The Forsaken Grind

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, September 17, 2018, 11:07 (2236 days ago) @ TheeChaos


For the purposes of this post, I'm not going to voice any judgements on whether any of this is good or bad. Just wanted to illustrate the amount of time it is taking for a "hardcore player" (<- not a term I like, but I think we all know what I mean by it) to climb up this level grind. I might reply to this post with some thoughts on the nature of the grind, but for now, I'll leave it at that.

I don't mind the grind. We needed a more gradual grind IMO. I don't mind slowly creeping up, so long as the game is fun and keeping me entertained. Most of the MMOs I have played follow this suit: Majority of players aren't grinding the raid on Day 1. To me that's OK!


Understandably, Everyone is excited and eager to get onto the new raid. I know I am!

SO, Lets imagine we were all "raid-ready" light levels this past weekend with the hours you, I and several others have put in thus far. By the end of this weekend we would have either beaten the raid, or played it long enough to get irritated/tired of banging our heads against it. See "The Taken King" raid. Then what?

Forsaken dropped 2 weeks ago tomorrow and alot of people are complaining they can't try the END GAME activity. If you have ever played a different game with Raiding, it takes time to be ready. Yes you can grind your days away to do it, but then what do you have to do until the next content drop? I feel like some people I have talked to just want to check the raid complete box and then go back to wanting more stuff to look forward to. Not everyone feels this way, and I am not even complaining, Destiny is YOUR game, play how you want. I just cant call it an END GAME activity if majority of active players are ready to raid on Day 1. Any other Non-Destiny MMO raiders that can back me up on that?

I am just trying to understand, whats the rush? Why do some people feel that just because they have put in ALOT of time these past 2 weeks, they should be able to do the raid? Maybe it is because that is how it felt in D1 and Destiny 2 expansions. I never really remember much of a grind to be able to do the raids prior to this one, maybe everyone liked that better?

I totally understand the "World's First" bologna Bungie is pushing, but that's all just for money/publicity. I imagine is just big whig corporate execs saying "hey if we push this, we get more attention and therefore more money/advertising. If we do not we "lose" out on all that". It has not made me feel the need to get there any faster. If we can go into END GAME activities 2 weeks into the expac, I would feel somewhat robbed of my money.

These are just my 2 cents, and in no way directed at anyone/group. Help me understand.

I can't say one way or the other with regards to this new expansion... its too new. But I can say with regards to previoius Destiny releases that the Raids were usually the most fun to replay activities in the game for me, by miles. It wasn't even close. I spent months playing VoG and CE multiple times per week, and loved it. In theory, it's the idea of being required to constantly replay a bunch of content that I'm not excited about replaying, just to reach the content that I will actually enjoy replaying, that rubs me the wrong way.
But game is in a very different state now. So I'm not going to make any judgements at this time as to how its all shaking out. Too soon for me to say.

The Forsaken Grind

by TheeChaos @, Monday, September 17, 2018, 11:19 (2236 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY


I can't say one way or the other with regards to this new expansion... its too new. But I can say with regards to previoius Destiny releases that the Raids were usually the most fun to replay activities in the game for me, by miles. It wasn't even close. I spent months playing VoG and CE multiple times per week, and loved it. In theory, it's the idea of being required to constantly replay a bunch of content that I'm not excited about replaying, just to reach the content that I will actually enjoy replaying, that rubs me the wrong way.
But game is in a very different state now. So I'm not going to make any judgements at this time as to how its all shaking out. Too soon for me to say.


Definitely agree, I loved running multiple raids a weekend alongside Trials in Destiny 1(RIP). The replay-ability is important. To me there is reward in it taking some work/time to get there THEN beating it. Along with Kermit and some of his previous posts, there is personal reward after figuring out tough raid fight while being underleveled. I recall my first time trying to get the knights on Kingsfall Raid during the Oryx encounter. First couple times through this was a real dealbreaker if you couldnt get the right DPS on them. Fine-tuning the loadouts and strategy was half the fight. It felt good to finally beat Oryx under these circumstances.

I agree about replaying content you aren't excited to replay, but I am not there yet. 2 more weeks maybe that will change, but for now there is not much I am not enjoying doing, even if repetitive. It rubs me the wrong way too, it just has not played out that way yet with Forsaken.

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That's where I'm at too :)

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, September 17, 2018, 11:22 (2236 days ago) @ TheeChaos

- No text -

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The Forsaken Grind

by cheapLEY @, Monday, September 17, 2018, 17:40 (2236 days ago) @ TheeChaos

I agree about replaying content you aren't excited to replay, but I am not there yet. 2 more weeks maybe that will change, but for now there is not much I am not enjoying doing, even if repetitive. It rubs me the wrong way too, it just has not played out that way yet with Forsaken.

For what it's worth, that's where I am, too. I am loving everything I can do in Forsaken. The annoyance comes in because I want to do the raid, and I'm committed to do so on the 27th. That is actively at odds with trying to play the game for enjoyment. I have to forego continuing to do some activities that I'd rather do in order to chase down Powerful Engrams to make sure that I am leveled enough to do the raid. It helps that I enjoy those activities too, but it makes it feel that anything not rewarding a Powerful Engram is a waste of time, even if it's something I want to be doing.

Sure, that's partly a problem of a my own making, but the alternative is skipping out on this blind raid group and hoping another one just happens to come along when I'm ready, and we both know that's not very likely. The other alternative is for all of us to just agree to take it as slow as we want and do it when we're all ready, whenever that happens to be, but that's also not a real solution. That will end with someone either getting tired of waiting and getting frustrated, or someone getting spoiled, or any other number of things that might split the group up.

Bungie's secrecy implies that they feel the raid is best experienced blind, but their game design implies they couldn't give a shit less, at least about us common folk.

The Forsaken Grind

by TheeChaos @, Tuesday, September 18, 2018, 06:06 (2235 days ago) @ cheapLEY

They definitely do contradict themselves with this, you are correct.

With Iron Banner starting today, they should have put off the Raid release 2 more weeks. I think with the current system of light leveling, 2 more weeks of powerful engrams would have made it less grindy and the put the raid within reach of more people. But would still require some work to get there, keeping it somewhat END GAME

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The Forsaken Grind

by Harmanimus @, Tuesday, September 18, 2018, 16:08 (2235 days ago) @ TheeChaos

I’ve never understood the insistence by some that incremental releases aren’t superior to dumping everything at once.

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The Forsaken Grind

by breitzen @, Kansas, Tuesday, September 18, 2018, 06:30 (2235 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I agree about replaying content you aren't excited to replay, but I am not there yet. 2 more weeks maybe that will change, but for now there is not much I am not enjoying doing, even if repetitive. It rubs me the wrong way too, it just has not played out that way yet with Forsaken.


For what it's worth, that's where I am, too. I am loving everything I can do in Forsaken. The annoyance comes in because I want to do the raid, and I'm committed to do so on the 27th. That is actively at odds with trying to play the game for enjoyment. I have to forego continuing to do some activities that I'd rather do in order to chase down Powerful Engrams to make sure that I am leveled enough to do the raid. It helps that I enjoy those activities too, but it makes it feel that anything not rewarding a Powerful Engram is a waste of time, even if it's something I want to be doing.

Preach it! I'm there too. I'd love to just play a bunch of Gambit, or explore the Dreaming City, but I don't feel like I can. That sucks.

Bungie's secrecy implies that they feel the raid is best experienced blind, but their game design implies they couldn't give a shit less, at least about us common folk.

Yeah. The fact that some of the Developers are straight up posting thoughts/comments on mechanic spoilers on Twitter makes me think they do not actually care about those of us who want to run it blind, but can't chase worlds first. And that's a real bummer.

On the bright side, I am still enjoying pretty much everything. Crucible took a little longer to adjust (freaking shotguns), but my handy hand cannon and intelligent movement (don't just run around corner ya'll) mean I can clean them up before they're in range to kill me.

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Different kinds of "Grind"

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, September 17, 2018, 11:05 (2236 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

One thought that sticks out in my mind when I think about this topic is the idea that there are different kinds of grinds, and they lead to very different experiences for me.

Unlocking my Whisper catalyst was a sort of Grind. It involved completing a very difficult mission, then completing a harder version of that mission, then going back in every weekend to beat it again and/or collect materials from hidden chests.

I loved every minute of it.

First of all, I loved the mission itself. I've probably run through it between 20-30 times at this point, and most of those runs were done helping other players beat the normal mode, which didn't count towards my catalyst progression.

On top of that, I knew exactly what I was working towards, and I could track my precise progress the whole time.

Finally, this "grind" was not locking me out of other activities that I might have wanted to do. There were no power-level gains involved. It was all about taking this awesome weapon that I love to use, and making it a little more powerful. This entire quest, IMO, is Destiny's "power fantasy" at its absolute best.

I would put "grinds" like the Ace of Spades quest in a similar boat. It has nothing to do with power level. It's all about chasing a specific reward that expands your power "outward" rather than "straight up". Same with Sleeper, Polaris Lance... even the new subclass missions.

I'm thoroughly enjoying the Dreaming City, in no small part because I'm chasing the Reverie Dawn armour, based purely on the asthetic. I'm constantly repeating the same patrols and public events, looking for chests and high value targets... just enjoying the atmosphere and the scenerie and the fun combat, all while working towards this goal of a complete set of armour. There are some bumps in this road (like getting my 6th pair of Titan boots before getting a single helmet), but that's a minor annoyance in an experience that I'm generally loving.

But then there's another kind of grind: what I would call a "vertical" grind. This is typically where power level comes into play, and certain activities are locked behind a power-level barrier. This is the kind of grind that I'm generally not a fan of (although it very much depends on the details). But regardless, I think it can be helpful to keep in mind the idea that there are different types of grinds when we talk about this stuff, because simply saying "I want more grind" or "there's too much grind" is actually quite vague.

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+1

by DiscipleN2k @, Edmond, OK, Monday, September 17, 2018, 12:49 (2236 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY
edited by DiscipleN2k, Monday, September 17, 2018, 13:25

One thought that sticks out in my mind when I think about this topic is the idea that there are different kinds of grinds, and they lead to very different experiences for me.

Unlocking my Whisper catalyst was a sort of Grind. It involved completing a very difficult mission, then completing a harder version of that mission, then going back in every weekend to beat it again and/or collect materials from hidden chests.

I loved every minute of it.

First of all, I loved the mission itself. I've probably run through it between 20-30 times at this point, and most of those runs were done helping other players beat the normal mode, which didn't count towards my catalyst progression.

On top of that, I knew exactly what I was working towards, and I could track my precise progress the whole time.

Finally, this "grind" was not locking me out of other activities that I might have wanted to do. There were no power-level gains involved. It was all about taking this awesome weapon that I love to use, and making it a little more powerful. This entire quest, IMO, is Destiny's "power fantasy" at its absolute best.

I would put "grinds" like the Ace of Spades quest in a similar boat. It has nothing to do with power level. It's all about chasing a specific reward that expands your power "outward" rather than "straight up". Same with Sleeper, Polaris Lance... even the new subclass missions.

I'm thoroughly enjoying the Dreaming City, in no small part because I'm chasing the Reverie Dawn armour, based purely on the asthetic. I'm constantly repeating the same patrols and public events, looking for chests and high value targets... just enjoying the atmosphere and the scenerie and the fun combat, all while working towards this goal of a complete set of armour. There are some bumps in this road (like getting my 6th pair of Titan boots before getting a single helmet), but that's a minor annoyance in an experience that I'm generally loving.

But then there's another kind of grind: what I would call a "vertical" grind. This is typically where power level comes into play, and certain activities are locked behind a power-level barrier. This is the kind of grind that I'm generally not a fan of (although it very much depends on the details). But regardless, I think it can be helpful to keep in mind the idea that there are different types of grinds when we talk about this stuff, because simply saying "I want more grind" or "there's too much grind" is actually quite vague.

Your idea of our power expanding outward vs upward is spot on. I love this game. I love nearly every activity in the game. I'm even starting to hate Crucible a little less. But I'm not a fan of chasing that vertical power grind.

I enjoy the gunplay and movement abilities enough to not mind grinding patrols for bounties, and I like most of the story missions and strikes enough that I don't mind running those a few times a week to knock out that milestone (though I could stand to see "Savathun's Song a bit less). But even if it seems like I dump a ridiculous amount of time into this game, my time isn't limitless. In order to play the content I enjoy most, I have to do a stupid amount of optimization to make sure that the time I spend in game is pushing that vertical power climb in the most efficient way possible.

(This part is dumb. You may want to skip from here...

Right now my daily/weekly grind involves running to the tower to talk to every vendor to collect bounties, knocking out crucible (if there's still a powerful reward on the table), then Gambit (again, if there's a powerful reward), if there are no more powerful engrams to be gained from them, all PvP bounties that will expire in the next 12 hours are dumped so that I've got room to collect wanted bounties (starting with any on Tangled Shore) and patrol bounties from Spider. I complete patrol bounties while bouncing between public events (occasionally ducking into a lost sector to nab an escapee), and returning to Spider every time I max out my Ghost Fragments stack so I can collect ALL of the wanted bounties. When the Tangled Shore bounties are done and local Prisoners are detained, I move to the flashpoint map.

On the flashpoint map, I collect my three bounties there (these are mostly important for the Ikora bounty, but planetary mats are at a premium now and the XP pushes gets me bright engrams which work toward completing this seaon's collect-a-thon), then jump into the daily heroic (unless a PE is about to start within running distance to any fast travel point), then back to doing patrols while bouncing between PEs and dipping into Lost Sectors to claim more runaway prisoners for Spider. When your flashpoint milestone is done, it's on to strikes...but only after hitting EVERY OTHER PLANET to collect their bounties as they can be completed during strikes that occur on that planet. Fun, right?!

Strikes are pretty straight forward as long as I keep an eye out for any weird loadout requirements for bounties, and check the roster to make sure at least one of the other players I'm matched with has the same elemental subclass, because it's really fun to keep players from earning progress on their milestones because neither of the players you matched them with are running arc subclasses during arc singe week.

Once things are handled in the real world, it's on to the Dreaming City. Petra needs me to complete two days worth of patrols and spend an hour running from bubble to bubble in the Well before she'll give me the gear I need to kill the thing she wants me to kill.

And this whole list doesn't even take into account that I now have to try and make sure to do the things that give me the less powerful powerful engrams before doing the things that give me more powerful powerful engrams because I didn't realize that was a thing until a few days ago because WHY THE FUCK WOULD BUNGIE DO THAT AND NOT TELL PEOPLE?!?!

...to here)

And while all of this sounds like a ridiculous slog, I actually enjoy all of these activities individually. But rather than have my checklist that has to be run in such a way that every thing I'm doing is making progress on at least three items on the list if I have any hope of completing said list, do you know what I'd rather do? I'd rather sign onto Destiny (appearing ONline), see what my friends are doing and play with them. Maybe every fifth engram gives me an item that is my current power level +1. It'll be a slow climb, but I'll get there by just playing and enjoying the game with friends.

On the other side of that, I love chasing new weapons and gear to expand my power. Everything that went into getting the Whisper and Polaris Lance and the Ace of Spades (even if they did try really hard to make me hate Gambit) made me appreciate those weapons that much more. This is the kind of stuff I want to do to expand my power. I mean, I've already killed a Hive god, the Hive god's dad, then the Worm god that created the Hive god. My power can't go upward much more before I'm using entire galaxies for platforming. I don't need more power. I need better tools to channel that power.

-Disciple

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Post is must read. (Contains a Gurren Lagann reference) :)

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Monday, September 17, 2018, 13:12 (2236 days ago) @ DiscipleN2k

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