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Something that Bungie (and all devs) could learn from DE... (Destiny)

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Tuesday, May 03, 2016, 15:24 (2908 days ago)
edited by Korny, Tuesday, May 03, 2016, 15:46

Even if you have zero interest in Warframe, Digital Extremes' bi-weekly Devstream is a great watch, as it gives a ton of insight into game development, developer relationships with the community, the addressing of issues within the game (and the difficulties that cause delays), and other great behind-the scenes looks into what has been done (and what is to come).

One thing that really stood out to me this past stream was the introduction of the "Bourbon List" (<Creative Director> Steve Sinclair starts explaining it at 23:10 in the video), which is the list of the ten most common issues that the community has brought up since the last major update (along with some lingering issues). Not only are they putting the list up for display (which Bungie could learn to do, in order to let the fans know that their concerns really were being addressed), but they go into detail about how they're going to address these issues, and that is what really got my attention, because they get it. Instead of punishing players, they're fixing things on their own end, which is something that Bungie hasn't done (or has taken far too long to do). "Dracoville" is probably the most pertinent one for Destiny fans, but they are all relevant.

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  • Onboardin'
    One of the game's biggest problems is that it overwhelms new players. Despite many tutorials and the in-game Codex (Grimoire of sorts), much of the game is left for players to figure out on their own. There is a steep learning curve, and with over a dozen different mission types, it can get confusing. In response to this, DE plans to make things easier for everyone, which includes a handful of quality-of-life tweaks and an overhaul of the game's Director in order to make it easier to find players to join (and stay with) your Fireteam.

    How it could be applied to Destiny:
    An in-game Grimoire has always been the obvious answer, but more importantly, an opt-in feature for matchmaking. One of the biggest issues with Destiny has always been that if you're not in a pre-made fireteam, you're mostly SOL when it comes to finding people to play with. If you don't have existing friends or an LFG, Destiny can be a very lonely experience, and folks don't stick with the game for too long because of it. One of the things that I love about Warframe is that you can sit in the Director and look for specific people to play with. One of the things that I love to do is look for low-level players who need help, and hopping into their Fireteam, or inviting them to taxi them around the higher-level stuff. One of our real-world friends started playing Warframe last week, and because Sammy and I got him up to speed and helped him out, he already has two extra Warframes being constructed (including an end-game-tiered Prime version of his starting one), a handful of loot, and has become familiar with lots of the game's mechanics, and he only has time to play for a few hours a week. Imagine if you could help get a new Destiny player set up that quickly.


  • Cheese Pizza, 3 minutes and it's free!
    One of the biggest things that separates Warframe from other games is that you are super overpowered by design. You are a space ninja supersoldier, so of course you need to be overpowered... The only problem is that people have become so powerful, that it can be possible to one-hit-kill bosses and other special enemies, making them boring. Instead of nerfing the players, they want to address the bosses themselves (likely adding combat mechanics). They've already overhauled a few bosses, but will likely expand the battles themselves.

    How it could be applied to Destiny:
    This is where Bungie falters. They punish the players for outwitting the design or being too good, and though they've definitely learned a few lessons when it comes to bosses, Guardians have steadily gotten nerfed since the game launched. Bungie could instead focus on the enemies themselves rather than hurting players in order to add challenge. Imagine if your Bladedancer could actually kill a decent number of enemies with a single super. Imagine if instead of nerfing Gjallarhorn, they had made it so that enemies could counter it (Taken Vandals already do a good job of it with their expertly-timed drop shields).


  • Grindin'
    There was a time when one of the valuable resources in the game (Oxium) only had a chance to drop form a specific enemy (Oxium Ospreys) with a Kamikaze attack. It was a rarely-encountered enemy, and you had to kill it before it struck with its divebomb attack in order to have a chance at getting 1 or 2 Oxium from it. The problem? One of the Warframes that needed Oxium to be constructed required 900(!) Oxium... It was a painful grind. DE fixed that by making the Ospreys more common, with a 100% drop chance when killed, and with 8-12 Oxium dropped per drop. Now, players can quickly rack up the Oxium.
    DE will soon be applying that same philosophy elsewhere, such as the Void (special high-end missions). While you always know what the loot table is for each mission, it can often take a dozen runs of the same mission to get the thing you're looking for, and they want to address the fatigue that this causes players by giving you alternate paths to the gear, as well as reshuffling the loot pools.

    How it could be applied to Destiny:
    Imago Loop. How many runs of the same strike have you done without getting a Loop, and when you finally get one, was it the roll you wanted? And that's just one of the things that you know how to get, as most everything else is completely RNG. This equals grind on top of grind, which can be exhausting for most players. Three of Coins help a lot in this regard, but even they have a low chance at giving you what you want. And how many raids have you run without getting a helmet? Bungie did great by adding the Challenge mode and the revamped Prison of Elders, but the game is still far more grind than it needs to be. There is a balance between having players work towards something, and forcing them to play slots for hours on end.


  • Samey-Same
    Missions are always more or less the same. Despite a randomly-generated environment, each piece of the tileset is always the same, which eventually leads to repetitive environments and the same strategy for each room. Although they are constantly adding new pieces to the tilesets (as well as entirely new environments, such as the recently-added Orokin Moon) DE will address the issue for their existing environments by refreshing them to include new things (enemy turrets, new reward containers, interactive elements).

    How it could be applied to Destiny:
    The environments in Destiny are painfully stale. Other than the enemies (and the rare, but mostly pointless turret), there is nothing interactive about the environments. Bungie somewhat addressed this by making Taken variants of existing strikes, but for the most part, a mission will always play out exactly the same. The only exceptions are the final knights in the Sunless Cell strike if you're doing the sword quest, and the Pikes that might show up on the moon if someone brought one into your instance. There aren't enough interactive elements to the levels, and the game would be better if there were.

  • Dracoville
    Essentially Warframe's Loot Cave, Draco is where players go to quickly grind and level their gear (small map, enlessly spawning enemies that can be killed nearly as fast as they spawn. Instead of getting rid of the mission, DE wants to address the issue of WHY players want to do this instead of playing the game. Instead of punishing the players, they acknowledge that it is the symptom of a bigger problem, and one that they want to fix. So they're wanting to change the way the leveling system works, rewarding higher-level players by reducing the amount of Grind that they have to do, allowing them to make the most of their new gear faster instead of worrying about having to level it. They are also changing the ways that you level your gear, in order to reward you for using it, rather than just having you level it in your backpack. They want to make the Loot Cave less appealing, rather than getting rid of it.

    How it could be applied to Destiny:
    Imagine if Bungie had increased the amount of loot drops in Destiny instead of just closing off the loot Cave and nerfing Three of Coins.
    Letting players use Motes of Light to level gear was a great step towards reducing grind, but imagine if leveling your gear was directly tied to your level? If you're 335, all of your gear's Nodes could be filled in, letting you experiment with different loot instead of leaving you with more grind/Mote+Resource consumption. You'd be rewarded for being a higher level, and your incentive to play with the loot you got would only go up. I'm reminded of all of the Doctrines that I dismantled because I wasn't impressed with the unleveled weapon, and I didn't want to waste my Motes and Resources leveling it. You could focus more on wearing the gear you like, rather than dismantling an Exotic armor because you don't want to burn through 50+ motes to get that extra point of Discipline.


  • Mo' Money Mo' Boring
    Endgame content. Once players are super powerful and with the optimized gear, playing the game can get boring (1HK bosses and the like). True for any game, but they want to take some cues from MMOs that let you continue to build and refocus your attention in order to keep the game fun for you. They added Sortie missions, which are great (and which I plan to make a separate post about), and they're working on their third Raid, but they want to have more options available for the Endgame players. Some of this new content isn't even gameplay related. They'll soon be adding the ability to invite people onto your ship, and they want to give players stuff that they can spend their resources on once they have all of the gear and weapons that they want.

    How it could be applied to Destiny:
    Prison of Elders 2.0 is great, but it's not endgame content because of how easy it is. It's also pretty short. King's Fall is a breeze now, and Trials no longer gives you incentive to get to the Lighthouse (unless you want that Scarab Heart). Destiny lacks any sort of persistent content for Endgame players, and I'm surprised that Destiny didn't come with a "Wilderness" area common in MMOs (the "Dark Zone" in The Division is pretty much a Wilderness area). Bumping the Light Level every once in a while does nothing for players who want an actual challenge, and so we're left running Raids HUDless, or with specific weapons only, or other stuff, which is fun, but there is no content in the game that recognizes playing with such handicaps or anything. Again, the Sortie Missions in Warframe are a great way to address this problem, and Destiny would do well to add something similar. Stay tuned for that post. Another bit of stuff for the endgame-fatigued crowd? Guardian Apartments. Wish those 100 Exotic Shards sitting in your Vault could be used for purchasing rare decorations for your apartment? Wouldn't that be neat?

  • Sounds of Silence
    General stuff to do. The past few months haven't had many events (outside of the excellent Shadow Debt event), so they're working to have more options available for all players, as opposed to just the endgame content. An upcoming overhaul to the factions will further flesh out the missions and rewards available to them, and that's starting with the current event (Rathuum), which overhauls one of the bosses and tracks Clan scores (for Clan rewards).

    How it could be applied to Destiny:
    Prison of Elders 2.0 was a great addition, but it's just one new thing added. Iron Banner just passed, but that's a common PvP event that really doesn't add new or limited-time stuff to the game in the same way that Queen's Wrath did. Sparrow Racing and Crimson Doubles are long-overdue for a return, and there are no active events, such as the loads-of-fun House of Wolves patrol encounters that you could do as a fireteam of Six (if you were clever). Destiny needs more small stuff to do while we wait for the big stuff. Hopping on to go through the motions for loot can't be how they wanted the game to be played. Also, Destiny really doesn't implement Clans into the game proper, which makes them somewhat pointless.


  • Flies with Chopsticks
    Warframe is primarily a PvE co-op game, but they have added (and are working on) a number of PvP modes to it. The problem is that because the Warframes are ridiculously fast and agile, it can be frustrating for the more casual crowd that isn't skilled at hitting moving targets with a bow while flying through the air... This is being addressed in a number of ways, one of the biggest is the addition of a specialized "Lunaro" gametype separate from the normal gameplay (They compare it to the Mayan ball game featured in "The Road To El Dorado"). It adds the ability for more causal players to reap the rewards and satisfaction found in normal PvP, but with a more balanced playing field. On top of that, they're looking for ways to improve the PvP networking by working with community folks in order to implement dedicated servers.

    How it could be applied to Destiny:
    It can be frustrating to hop into Crucible when you don't have a MIDA or 1000YS, and you're repeatedly cut down by the folks with all of the god-rolls that wreck your low-ROF Auto Rifle. Instead of constantly nerfing the guns and Guardians, Bungie could add a specialized playlist with preset loadouts and gear, providing unique/guaranteed rewards to promote people hopping onto the playlist. This could even be where they apply more traditional gametypes, such as CTF and Super-less, Special Weapon-less Slayer. Bungie's philosophy of the same guardian and gear across all game modes is admirable, but has led to a weakened PvE experience because of so much focus on balancing for PvP. As far as networking goes, there could be solutions to help reduce stuff like IB lag, and some of that could be limited dedicated servers.

  • Musty Smell
    A Faction of enemy that has been hinted at since the game's Closed Alpha (the Sentients), and has been slowly trickling in in the past year is going to be brought in as a full-blown enemy faction. Apart from that, the most recent major update added an all-new feature to the game, and they are going to give players incentive to use and improve upon the new gameplay elements while they wait for the next major questline that will take advantage of it.

    How it could be applied to Destiny:
    The new subclasses had some interesting story missions to go with them, but after obtaining your subclass, the storylines flat-out stopped. The characters and neat mission strings are nowhere to be seen, and the missions themselves aren't replayable. To add to that, there aren't any missions or gameplay elements that take advantage of the range of subclasses. Storylines (such as the Warmind and Exo Stranger) are dropped left and right in favor of a focus on the Hive/Oryx. There are hints of what's to come, but historically those hints go nowhere in favor of closed storylines (House of Wolves) that ultimately underwhelm. Nothing is really persistent or meaningful.


  • Gang of New 'Yolk'
    Clan Dojos haven't been updated in a long while, and after an Armistice was declared last year, Clans and Alliances haven't been able to fight each other for control of planetary Rails (Two nodes on each planet with high credit payouts that can tax people playing on the missions, with the tax going to the winning Clan/Alliance for further Dojo projects), so they plan to work on Clan stuff/events.

    How it could be applied to Destiny:
    Clans aren't really implemented in any way. No competitions, no interactions, nothing. Just a clan name on your emblem and that's it. Other than a couple of Trophies, there's no incentive to be in a clan. People might not want to log on to the website just to use it as an LFG when there are more efficient LFG sites around.
    Again, if we aren't getting Guardian Apartments, a Guardian Safehouse could be implemented that we could decorate and add to (as well as sell unique gear and such that could benefit the clan). There could even be clan-based Bounties similar to the Bungie Bounties that we could participate in.

Bonus: at 44:25 in the Video, they start talking about (and showing off) the community-created content that they're adding to the game. I really wish that Bungie would allow stuff like this, since some of the fan-made stuff is amazing, and Destiny's cosmetic options are often underwhelming.



But yeah, tl;dr, Bungie could be more open about their creative process, and they could let us know that they acknowledge Destiny's problems, and how they plan to address them, even if it's down-the-road solutions.

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Something that Bungie (and all devs) could learn from DE...

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, May 03, 2016, 16:14 (2908 days ago) @ Korny

How it could be applied to Destiny:
An in-game Grimoire has always been the obvious answer, but more importantly, an opt-in feature for matchmaking. One of the biggest issues with Destiny has always been that if you're not in a pre-made fireteam, you're mostly SOL when it comes to finding people to play with. If you don't have existing friends or an LFG, Destiny can be a very lonely experience, and folks don't stick with the game for too long because of it.

The could be a kind of player connector sure. What about a kiosk in the tower where you can, if you choose, list yourself as looking for friends? You can leave your information such as skill level, desired play time, when you can play, etc. You could then search for other players fitting your criteria and send them a friend request and start playing together.

How it could be applied to Destiny:
This is where Bungie falters. They punish the players for outwitting the design or being too good, and though they've definitely learned a few lessons when it comes to bosses, Guardians have steadily gotten nerfed since the game launched. Bungie could instead focus on the enemies themselves rather than hurting players in order to add challenge. Imagine if your Bladedancer could actually kill a decent number of enemies with a single super. Imagine if instead of nerfing Gjallarhorn, they had made it so that enemies could counter it (Taken Vandals already do a good job of it with their expertly-timed drop shields).

First of all, game rules should be consistent, so having an enemy that has a counter to a specific gun would just feel cheap. If it can counter all rockets, than I guess that could work. But singling out particular weapons just does;t feel like a good solution.

In most games, the problem of badassery is solved by making alternate or secret areas or optional bosses and the like that require you to have completely mastered your insane set of skills, then force you to use them perfectly or in an unusual way. This works because the games have an end. But each expansion, Destiny continues. You have all your skills and your personal skill at the game. Every mission in each new expansion would just have to be insane to keep up. There is no solution to this problem the way Destiny is designed other than by limiting players and toning down overpowered skills.

How it could be applied to Destiny:
The environments in Destiny are painfully stale. Other than the enemies (and the rare, but mostly pointless turret), there is nothing interactive about the environments. Bungie somewhat addressed this by making Taken variants of existing strikes, but for the most part, a mission will always play out exactly the same. The only exceptions are the final knights in the Sunless Cell strike if you're doing the sword quest, and the Pikes that might show up on the moon if someone brought one into your instance. There aren't enough interactive elements to the levels, and the game would be better if there were.

Given that the game has such strong FPS elements, it makes sense that the environments are conducive to shooting elements. Destiny is not an RPG like Deus Ex. Such a game requires more sophisticated types of interactions with the environments. I'm not really sure Destiny needs much interaction beyond what would enhance the shooting since it's not that type of game.

How it could be applied to Destiny:
Bumping the Light Level every once in a while does nothing for players who want an actual challenge, and so we're left running Raids HUDless, or with specific weapons only, or other stuff, which is fun, but there is no content in the game that recognizes playing with such handicaps or anything.

I think once you have to resort to things like that to keep things interesting, you've pretty much mastered the game. At which point it's fine to just stop. There's nothing wrong with that. 100 days!

How it could be applied to Destiny:
Destiny needs more small stuff to do while we wait for the big stuff.

I thought I agreed at first. The big stuff is the stuff worth playing. So why spend the time to make stuff that's not as cool before we get cool stuff? Why play the not as cool stuff, instead of just waiting for the big stuff?

How it could be applied to Destiny:
It can be frustrating to hop into Crucible when you don't have a MIDA or 1000YS, and you're repeatedly cut down by the folks with all of the god-rolls that wreck your low-ROF Auto Rifle. Instead of constantly nerfing the guns and Guardians, Bungie could add a specialized playlist with preset loadouts and gear, providing unique/guaranteed rewards to promote people hopping onto the playlist. This could even be where they apply more traditional gametypes, such as CTF and Super-less, Special Weapon-less Slayer. Bungie's philosophy of the same guardian and gear across all game modes is admirable, but has led to a weakened PvE experience because of so much focus on balancing for PvP. As far as networking goes, there could be solutions to help reduce stuff like IB lag, and some of that could be limited dedicated servers.

Agree completely. I think Bungie could have ranked and unranked PvP, with unranked allowing you to bring in your PvE guns, and ranked having a set pool of guns from which to choose (like a special crucible armory). CTF would be great, but there has to be some fundamental problem with that game type in Destiny or else it would be in by now.

But yeah, tl;dr, Bungie could be more open about their creative process, and they could let us know that they acknowledge Destiny's problems, and how they plan to address them, even if it's down-the-road solutions.

I'm kind of hoping they just start fresh with Destiny 2 and fix / eliminate the problems all at once with significant changes.

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Something that Bungie (and all devs) could learn from DE...

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Tuesday, May 03, 2016, 17:00 (2908 days ago) @ Cody Miller

How it could be applied to Destiny:
An in-game Grimoire has always been the obvious answer, but more importantly, an opt-in feature for matchmaking. One of the biggest issues with Destiny has always been that if you're not in a pre-made fireteam, you're mostly SOL when it comes to finding people to play with. If you don't have existing friends or an LFG, Destiny can be a very lonely experience, and folks don't stick with the game for too long because of it.


The could be a kind of player connector sure. What about a kiosk in the tower where you can, if you choose, list yourself as looking for friends? You can leave your information such as skill level, desired play time, when you can play, etc. You could then search for other players fitting your criteria and send them a friend request and start playing together.

Or you could opt-in to matchmaking for stuff like Story missions and the like. It'd be great if you could see how many active fireteams were in a game/looking for a game in any particular mission that you already completed, and join in on them to help them out. They could even review your participation (if the people in the game all declared you as "friendly" and "helpful" it could help you work towards some rewards, even (similar to the refer-a-friend).

How it could be applied to Destiny:
This is where Bungie falters. They punish the players for outwitting the design or being too good, and though they've definitely learned a few lessons when it comes to bosses, Guardians have steadily gotten nerfed since the game launched. Bungie could instead focus on the enemies themselves rather than hurting players in order to add challenge. Imagine if your Bladedancer could actually kill a decent number of enemies with a single super. Imagine if instead of nerfing Gjallarhorn, they had made it so that enemies could counter it (Taken Vandals already do a good job of it with their expertly-timed drop shields).


First of all, game rules should be consistent, so having an enemy that has a counter to a specific gun would just feel cheap. If it can counter all rockets, than I guess that could work. But singling out particular weapons just does;t feel like a good solution.

I definitely meant that they could counter all rockets. Something to give you incentive to try other methods and such. What if a special heavy Cabal enemy had a gravity gun that could catch and return rockets and other projectiles, but not energy-based weapons (Fusion Rifles, IceBreaker, etc.). You'd have less incentive to use Gjallarhorn, as it would lead to the wolfpack hunting you, but Fusion Rifles would have a definite advantage.

How it could be applied to Destiny:
The environments in Destiny are painfully stale. Other than the enemies (and the rare, but mostly pointless turret), there is nothing interactive about the environments. Bungie somewhat addressed this by making Taken variants of existing strikes, but for the most part, a mission will always play out exactly the same. The only exceptions are the final knights in the Sunless Cell strike if you're doing the sword quest, and the Pikes that might show up on the moon if someone brought one into your instance. There aren't enough interactive elements to the levels, and the game would be better if there were.


Given that the game has such strong FPS elements, it makes sense that the environments are conducive to shooting elements. Destiny is not an RPG like Deus Ex. Such a game requires more sophisticated types of interactions with the environments. I'm not really sure Destiny needs much interaction beyond what would enhance the shooting since it's not that type of game.

I don't see how it couldn't be. What if you used your Ghost to activate an old crane that you could climb to get a better vantage point if you like Sniping and want to hit enemies hiding in cover while your teammates push up? What if a swarm of Vandals broke through a sewer behind you, making you surrounded, but giving you a new alternate path through the area that would benefit shotgun-wielding players? There are tons of ways to add interactivity that would help Destiny as a team-based shooter.

How it could be applied to Destiny:
Bumping the Light Level every once in a while does nothing for players who want an actual challenge, and so we're left running Raids HUDless, or with specific weapons only, or other stuff, which is fun, but there is no content in the game that recognizes playing with such handicaps or anything.


I think once you have to resort to things like that to keep things interesting, you've pretty much mastered the game. At which point it's fine to just stop. There's nothing wrong with that. 100 days!

Or you can keep playing because you like the game, and you like working towards cosmetic stuff.

How it could be applied to Destiny:
Destiny needs more small stuff to do while we wait for the big stuff.


I thought I agreed at first. The big stuff is the stuff worth playing. So why spend the time to make stuff that's not as cool before we get cool stuff? Why play the not as cool stuff, instead of just waiting for the big stuff?

Maybe because the game is fun, and it's fun to play with friends.
If you like the game's mechanics, and you enjoy playing with your friends, doing lots of little stuff is perfectly fine. You're essentially saying "why bother playing Reach once you've beaten it on Legendary? You've mastered the game, there's no point to keep playing it!"
People like to play for different reasons, and smaller stuff gives folks lots of reasons to hop on and play with friends, as well as helping the overall value of the game. You seem to wish that Destiny only launched with a Tutorial, a Raid, and then nothing until the next Raid came out. Where's the fun/value in that?

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Something that Bungie (and all devs) could learn from DE...

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, May 03, 2016, 17:23 (2908 days ago) @ Korny

Maybe because the game is fun, and it's fun to play with friends.
If you like the game's mechanics, and you enjoy playing with your friends, doing lots of little stuff is perfectly fine. You're essentially saying "why bother playing Reach once you've beaten it on Legendary? You've mastered the game, there's no point to keep playing it!"

I mean, once you can beat Reach on Legendary with your hand behind your back, and there is no sense of challenge or discovery left, I probably would not keep playing it. My Xbox 360 is in my closet right now :-/

People like to play for different reasons, and smaller stuff gives folks lots of reasons to hop on and play with friends, as well as helping the overall value of the game. You seem to wish that Destiny only launched with a Tutorial, a Raid, and then nothing until the next Raid came out. Where's the fun/value in that?

You're right, but the smaller stuff should come with big stuff at the same time. An update with small stuff sooner is not as satisfying as an update with small + big stuff later on. On its own, small stuff doesn't really hit that critical mass.

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Something that Bungie (and all devs) could learn from DE...

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, May 03, 2016, 21:34 (2908 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I mean, once you can beat Reach on Legendary with your hand behind your back, and there is no sense of challenge or discovery left, I probably would not keep playing it. My Xbox 360 is in my closet right now :-/

And then you have people like Rockslider who are still playing the original Halo. It's fine to be "finished" with a game, and move on to other things. It's also okay to really enjoy one particular game and play it endlessly. One size does not fit all.

People like to play for different reasons, and smaller stuff gives folks lots of reasons to hop on and play with friends, as well as helping the overall value of the game. You seem to wish that Destiny only launched with a Tutorial, a Raid, and then nothing until the next Raid came out. Where's the fun/value in that?


You're right, but the smaller stuff should come with big stuff at the same time. An update with small stuff sooner is not as satisfying as an update with small + big stuff later on. On its own, small stuff doesn't really hit that critical mass.

I don't personally disagree with you, but at this point, they could get away with recycling old, small stuff to give those that are still playing Destiny just another small thing in the mix. Bring back Queen's Wrath in some way, throw SRL out there every other month, same with Crimson Doubles. There's enough things they've done previously that could probably be re-instated with very little work. Every month you could have Iron Banner and one other event set a week apart, with those other events coming once every three months. It wouldn't be enough to bring someone like you back into the game, but that's not the point right now. The fall expansion is what will bring people back. At this point they just need to (or should) give those that are still playing more to do. I haven't played the strike playlists in a while, but have those even been updated to bring the old strikes back in, or is it still just the Taken King ones with the Taken versions of a few old ones in rotation?

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Something that Bungie (and all devs) could learn from DE...

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Tuesday, May 03, 2016, 16:16 (2908 days ago) @ Korny

[*]Dracoville

Essentially Warframe's Loot Cave, Draco is where players go to quickly grind and level their gear (small map, enlessly spawning enemies that can be killed nearly as fast as they spawn. Instead of getting rid of the mission, DE wants to address the issue of WHY players want to do this instead of playing the game. Instead of punishing the players, they acknowledge that it is the symptom of a bigger problem, and one that they want to fix. So they're wanting to change the way the leveling system works, rewarding higher-level players by reducing the amount of Grind that they have to do, allowing them to make the most of their new gear faster instead of worrying about having to level it. They are also changing the ways that you level your gear, in order to reward you for using it, rather than just having you level it in your backpack. They want to make the Loot Cave less appealing, rather than getting rid of it.

How it could be applied to Destiny:
Imagine if Bungie had increased the amount of loot drops in Destiny instead of just closing off the loot Cave and nerfing Three of Coins.

They actually did address the loot cave like that. The number one reason people were using it was because when you did get a legendary engram 50% of the time it would end up being a blue item, the patch where they nerfed it was also the patch that guaranteed legendary items from legendary engrams. They also increased the chances of getting engrams from activities. People just seem to forget all of that.

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New names for the same old problems

by Durandal, Tuesday, May 03, 2016, 16:35 (2908 days ago) @ Korny

I think many of these same problems were in RPGs and MMOs like WoW for a long time. The Shooters are just catching up as they go through the same growing pains of adding the "investment systems" to the classic shooter archetype.

I confess i quit Warframe after a few hours of playing, it seemed to me to be very similar to Vanilla Destiny at the time and I recognized that both would make heavy demands for grind. I personally didn't like their art style as much nor the C3P0 main ship, so I opted for Destiny instead.

I think Bungie's approach to these problems is following a similar trajectory, but I have less experience with the end game mechanics of Warframe to truly comment. From a business perspective Warframe, like other F2P style games thrives on constant small content bumps and feedback to players. Thus they have lots of incentive to actively work on very frequent communication with fans and turn around incremental changes quickly.

Bungie is on a far more regimented plan. I just don't see them set up to react that way and it shows with their communication. It isn't easy for them to go this rout because they are not structured to do so.

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Something that Bungie (and all devs) could learn from DE...

by MacGyver10 ⌂, Tennessee, Tuesday, May 03, 2016, 17:21 (2908 days ago) @ Korny

I think the 'bourbon list' is one of the most ingenious things I've seen a developer do, and honestly something I feel Bungie from 10 years ago would have been doing had they thought of it.

The simple acknowledgement of any game community's gripes would go a long way into endearing the public to the developer, even if they explained why they weren't fixing something. It's just building up relationship equity, and seemingly smart business.

- MacGyver10

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