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Gunsmith Test Weapons: Why are they all so bad? (Destiny)

by Kahzgul, Wednesday, May 18, 2016, 16:53 (2908 days ago)

In every video game ever, the experimental prototype weapon is always the best most amazing awesomest gun evar. Until now. Bungie has made the gunsmith a purveyor of pretty decent weapons, but his test weapons are pretty clearly crap. I'm not sure what he's testing. There's not a new damage matrix, no new weapon archetype, no new unheard of effect (though when the gunsmith started, some of the weapon perks like enhanced radar were new)... Bungie has a built in platform for testing weapon design changes in a limited capacity (just make the weapons expire on a timer or when they hit 100% and you won't even have to worry about whether or not a gun is OP since it'll just disappear after a while) and they're not using it *at all*.

The crucible test weapons are the most obviously bad guns. Does the gunsmith really want to test to see if a rocket launcher that only holds one rocket and only gets one rocket per brick of heavy ammo is any good in the crucible? Or is he actually testing to see just how willing we are to stab ourselves in the dick in order to get those 250 rep points?

Or that shotgun. Point blank it still doesn't always 1-shot. The test is failed - this is a shitty gun.

Personally, I'd love to see the weapons actually seem like they were testing something. Either a perk that doesn't normally land on that archetype (shotguns with explosive rounds, a full auto hand cannon, or maybe a sniper rifle with a Sureshot IS instead of a scope), or something even more extreme (a shotgun with vortex, "find more special ammo", and performance bonus, as well as full auto, for example, or a bullet hose auto rifle with minimal stability that uses skip rounds and has a massive clip... Stuff like that.

My point is, in the realm of the game world, no gun manufacturer would ever need to test to see if a shittier shotgun was any good, or if a rocket launcher that holds less ammo is worth using. In the realm of the player world, these weapons simply are not fun to use; they're just chores. Chores suck.

I hope the future brings test weapons that actually test something in order to make both the game logic behind their existence make sense, and the experience of using them fun for the players.

On a game balance note: It would be pretty easy to make test weapons for the crucible be meta-shifting in their design in order to see if they bring K/Ds to a balanced point, or shift the meta in ways that Bungie likes. The current system of them always being crap, combined with SBMM in crucible means using them always hurts your team. That really shouldn't be the case. You don't want disincentives for your players encouraging them *not* to use your game's mechanics.

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Prototypes

by Blackt1g3r @, Login is from an untrusted domain in MN, Wednesday, May 18, 2016, 18:40 (2908 days ago) @ Kahzgul

Personally, I'd love to see the weapons actually seem like they were testing something. Either a perk that doesn't normally land on that archetype (shotguns with explosive rounds, a full auto hand cannon, or maybe a sniper rifle with a Sureshot IS instead of a scope), or something even more extreme (a shotgun with vortex, "find more special ammo", and performance bonus, as well as full auto, for example, or a bullet hose auto rifle with minimal stability that uses skip rounds and has a massive clip... Stuff like that.


It would be really interesting to have prototypes with new gun features, but that would require adding new content to the game. So far, that's been more difficult than it should be for Bungie. That said, I'd really like it if the prototype weapons had interesting features that could make them very powerful, but since they are prototypes they should also have significant problems. Maybe a shotgun with firefly occasionally damages the player as much as their opponents? (Actually, that's the tradeoff ice breaker should have had. Infinite ammo, but sometimes the gun "misfires" and damages you instead or pehaps it overheats and if you don't watch your shots you'll take damage?) Perhaps a sidearm that hits targets behind your targe but is extremely unstable and has a tiny clip.

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What about blinking bullets?

by BeardFade ⌂, Portland, OR, Wednesday, May 18, 2016, 23:51 (2908 days ago) @ Blackt1g3r

An interesting prototype would be bullets that could shoot through walls, not armor piercing though. You have to shoot through a wall to get them to hit their target :) Think a sidearm would be good for this too.

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What about blinking bullets?

by Blackt1g3r @, Login is from an untrusted domain in MN, Thursday, May 19, 2016, 13:27 (2907 days ago) @ BeardFade

Maybe instead of requiring that you shoot through a wall the bullets are only effective if your target is at least X distance away and any shots at them would ignore walls?

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I've always thought a gun that teleported objects would be..

by Kahzgul, Thursday, May 19, 2016, 14:56 (2907 days ago) @ BeardFade

I've always thought that a "gun" that just teleported small pieces of metal into people's heads would be pretty awesome in a sci-fi movie or game. Lock on target, drop a penny in the hopper, and they fall over dead. You could even teleport air in there and give them a massive stroke. Or (slightly messier) reverse the weapon and remove chunks of their grey matter.

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I've always thought a gun that teleported objects would be..

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Thursday, May 19, 2016, 15:02 (2907 days ago) @ Kahzgul

I've always thought that a "gun" that just teleported small pieces of metal into people's heads would be pretty awesome in a sci-fi movie or game. Lock on target, drop a penny in the hopper, and they fall over dead. You could even teleport air in there and give them a massive stroke. Or (slightly messier) reverse the weapon and remove chunks of their grey matter.

Teleport In: Live shark.
[image]


Teleport Out: Innards.

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Was that Nightcrawler? And Blob?

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Thursday, May 19, 2016, 15:21 (2907 days ago) @ Korny

Jesus, that's brutal

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Dammit Jim, I'm a Doctor not a Mortician!

by Blackt1g3r @, Login is from an untrusted domain in MN, Thursday, May 19, 2016, 16:59 (2907 days ago) @ Korny

- No text -

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Amazing. On all counts.

by Kahzgul, Thursday, May 19, 2016, 21:56 (2907 days ago) @ Korny

- No text -

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Yeah, it's a complete disappointment.

by CyberKN ⌂ @, Oh no, Destiny 2 is bad, Wednesday, May 18, 2016, 18:43 (2908 days ago) @ Kahzgul

Personally, I'd love to see the weapons actually seem like they were testing something. Either a perk that doesn't normally land on that archetype (shotguns with explosive rounds, a full auto hand cannon, or maybe a sniper rifle with a Sureshot IS instead of a scope), or something even more extreme (a shotgun with vortex, "find more special ammo", and performance bonus, as well as full auto, for example, or a bullet hose auto rifle with minimal stability that uses skip rounds and has a massive clip... Stuff like that.

When I first heard about the concept, I thought it would all be stuff like this. And the fact that you have to kill specific enemies (usually majors) just makes it feel like a total chore.

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To be fair...

by slycrel ⌂, Wednesday, May 18, 2016, 18:55 (2908 days ago) @ CyberKN

It was great at the beginning of Y2 to test out weapons from the different manufacturers you didn't have experience with. So you could get a "feel" for new classes of weapons.

But I'm not sure how that held up past actually getting real weapons of those types -- it feels like an intro kind of thing, but they also used it for rep grinding which is not ideal.

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The "negative nancy" answer

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Wednesday, May 18, 2016, 18:57 (2908 days ago) @ Kahzgul

I'm going to come off as a bit overly negative here, but I truly believe what I say. The simple answer to your question, IMO, is that Bungie didn't put much though into it. Like many of the peripheral systems in Destiny, the gunsmith is nothing more than yet another repetitive activity to keep us grinding yet another rep meter in the hopes of yet more RNG-based rewards.

I bet there was a small amount of conversation within Bungie at some point where a couple designers said "we don't want to make the Gunsmith weapons OP, right?" "no, just make them all crappy to be safe". They came up with a handful of test weapons (how many are there? 10? I don't actually know) and designed a small set of corresponding bounties, and threw it in the game. All of it is under-developed, makes very little sense in terms of how it fits into the fiction of the game world, and adds virtually nothing in terms of unique or rewarding gameplay experiences.

All that said, I think there is plenty of potential in there somewhere... the Gunsmith could certainly be worked into the game in interesting ways in the future. For example, what if the prototype weapons functioned like true prototypes: Awesome and creative new features, but they don't always work quite right. A rocket launcher with a DEVASTATING payload, but once in a while a projectile will fail to detonate. A new machine gun that has a super-fast reload, except that it jams every now and then.
How about new weapons that don't fit into the current archetypes? A flamethrower? A laser-gun? Grenade Launcher?

As Blackt1g3r already pointed out, these kinds of additions would require more substantial work from Bungie. It seems to me that Bungie has entered "The fans need content, lets get stuff out the door no matter how underwhelming it is!" mode. Personally, I'd much rather have longer waits between updates and get genuinely substantial stuff added to the game.

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The "negative nancy" answer

by Kahzgul, Wednesday, May 18, 2016, 19:41 (2908 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

I think you're absolutely right about how it all happened. I'm more just sounding off that it could have been fantastic and ended up disappointing.

The be fair, the special, class-specific guns do have the feel that I'm looking for; I just wish that the prototyping was more procedural and ongoing than the current very disappointing rep weapons.

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Probably.

by Funkmon @, Wednesday, May 18, 2016, 20:02 (2908 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

It doesn't help that none of the guns are any good now, either.

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The "negative nancy" answer

by cheapLEY @, Wednesday, May 18, 2016, 21:53 (2908 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

All that said, I think there is plenty of potential in there somewhere... the Gunsmith could certainly be worked into the game in interesting ways in the future. For example, what if the prototype weapons functioned like true prototypes: Awesome and creative new features, but they don't always work quite right. A rocket launcher with a DEVASTATING payload, but once in a while a projectile will fail to detonate. A new machine gun that has a super-fast reload, except that it jams every now and then.

I'm all for the Gunsmith prototypes being creative and with major drawbacks that allow them to be fun and maybe even a bit OP at times, but misfiring rockets and jamming weapons sounds absolutely terrible and unfun. If it happened too often, it'd be really annoying and not fun. If it didn't happen often enough, there wouldn't be a point to it happening at all. And let's not forget that most people would just be confused that their gun isn't working.

The Gunsmith should be revamped for sure, with crazy weapons. But misfiring, jamming weapons shouldn't even be on the table in my opinion.

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The "negative nancy" answer

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Wednesday, May 18, 2016, 23:00 (2908 days ago) @ cheapLEY

All that said, I think there is plenty of potential in there somewhere... the Gunsmith could certainly be worked into the game in interesting ways in the future. For example, what if the prototype weapons functioned like true prototypes: Awesome and creative new features, but they don't always work quite right. A rocket launcher with a DEVASTATING payload, but once in a while a projectile will fail to detonate. A new machine gun that has a super-fast reload, except that it jams every now and then.


I'm all for the Gunsmith prototypes being creative and with major drawbacks that allow them to be fun and maybe even a bit OP at times, but misfiring rockets and jamming weapons sounds absolutely terrible and unfun. If it happened too often, it'd be really annoying and not fun. If it didn't happen often enough, there wouldn't be a point to it happening at all. And let's not forget that most people would just be confused that their gun isn't working.

The Gunsmith should be revamped for sure, with crazy weapons. But misfiring, jamming weapons shouldn't even be on the table in my opinion.

Those specific "drawbacks" might be bad examples, but I do think it would be cool to have gunsmith prototypes that "go wrong" in some hilarious way. These aren't weapons that we earn or are invested in... We pick them up, take them out on patrol for 15 minutes to complete a bounty, then scrap them. There's room for Bungie to have some silly fun there in ways they don't with the rest of the game. Of course these ideas would be problematic for PvP, but what else is new ;)

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The "negative nancy" answer

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, May 18, 2016, 23:14 (2908 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

Of course these ideas would be problematic for PvP, but what else is new ;)

Ding Ding.

More reason to completely separate the weapon set of PvE and PvP.

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The "negative nancy" answer

by cheapLEY @, Wednesday, May 18, 2016, 23:18 (2908 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

Yeah I think that's fine in concept. Having silly drawbacks that potentially harm the player is fine, and potentially funny. But misfires, jamming, or just plain not working just doesn't sound like a fun or interesting drawback.

I'd actually like to see weapon perks that are great, but come with specific drawbacks. Introduce a nice risk/reward mechanic. I feel like they need to revamp perks and make them more interesting or just remove them. As it is, I can barely tell the difference when I switch up the stat boosting perks. Those are boring, in my opinion.

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It's on purpose.

by narcogen ⌂ @, Andover, Massachusetts, Thursday, May 19, 2016, 23:50 (2907 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

I'm going to come off as a bit overly negative here, but I truly believe what I say. The simple answer to your question, IMO, is that Bungie didn't put much though into it. Like many of the peripheral systems in Destiny, the gunsmith is nothing more than yet another repetitive activity to keep us grinding yet another rep meter in the hopes of yet more RNG-based rewards.

I bet there was a small amount of conversation within Bungie at some point where a couple designers said "we don't want to make the Gunsmith weapons OP, right?" "no, just make them all crappy to be safe".

I'd have thought they were made crappy on purpose. It is supposed to get you to go into usual activities with a gun that is much worse than you'd usually have, and that has no interesting perks whatsoever, to force you to compensate by just being better at the basic gameplay loop. When your gun refunds missed shots, chains lightning damage, gives you bonus ammo, and all manner of other crazy things, it means you don't necessarily have to be 100% on the ball with the basics of dodging and shooting. The crappy gunsmith guns don't do that, have low light levels and bad stats. In return for making your ordinary activities more difficult, it rewards you with reputation that allows you to order more guns.

On balance I think you're expecting too much at this point to see the in-game reasons for things match the design parameters. They pretty much don't anywhere else, why would it apply to the gunsmith?

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He gave a bunch of shitty weapons in Y1 as well.

by ProbablyLast, Wednesday, May 18, 2016, 23:46 (2908 days ago) @ Kahzgul

They just weren't tied to a reputation system that eventually gives you more shitty weapons.

It encouraged variety in user choice.

by DEEP_NNN, Thursday, May 19, 2016, 01:06 (2908 days ago) @ Kahzgul

I'm pretty sure Bungie wanted people to try different weapon styles. The whole Gunsmith thing was the reward system to encourage testing a variety of guns.

It was exactly this testing that led me to the HAKKE D series of weapons. Ultimately I found the Arminius-D to be my favorite gun. Co-incidentally it was so powerful they had to nerf it (not enough to make me switch though).

I continue to test the gunsmith's weapons. Bungie seems to make changes in the line up. I like being reminded why I do or don't like a weapon's characteristics.

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