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What makes a good raid? (Destiny)

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, June 30, 2016, 23:11 (2828 days ago)

What makes a good raid? What would it be nice to see in September?

1. Quiet and Intense.

I think a good raid has a good mix of quiet and intense. Moments of intense action, interspersed with quieter more exploratory sections. Crota's end didn't really do this so much, but VoG and King's Fall did wonderfully.

2. Mix of bosses and encounters.

VoG did this pretty well with a mix of encounters with regular enemies and bosses. Crota had basically no bosses, and King's Fall feels like a boss rush to an extent. Having more sections with alternate goals besides burning a boss is pretty fun.

3. Flexibility

I think a good raid should be challenging, yet flexible. The encounters and bosses should lend themselves to variation and experimentation, and be more open ended. One thing I didn't like about King's Fall was that for half the bosses, the strategy and required actions were very rigid, and one small mistake would ruin it with no way to recover. Both VoG and Crota were all about this.

4. Juggler

The encounters where you have to keep track of and manage multiple elements are generally the most fun I think. The gatekeeper section is an example where you have to juggle keeping the portal open, getting the relic from the portal, and keeping the minotaurs from sacrificing. Combined with #3, these types of encounters are very enjoyable. Crota suffered a bit for being relatively straightforward, without the need to really have the team manage multiple things.

5. Mystery and Awe

The raid should make you feel a sense of wonder, awe, and mystery. It should feel lie you are going somewhere forbidden.

6. Timed sections

I don't like timed sections like the Confluxes in VoG. We should progress based on propulsive actions on our part. The totem section in King's Fall is a good way to do this: you progress by depositing the deathsinger's power onto the plate. So while it's more or less technically a timed event due to the timer on the buff, in actuality it's you actions that drive it through to completion.

7. Listed level requirements:

This is a nitpick, but it'd be nice if Bungie listed the real level requirements. Every raid has scaled beyond the initial recommendation, to the point where it was extraordinarily difficult to beat if your entire team was at the listed level. A raid at 320 light should mean the top tier enemies are also 320 light.

Let's see how the fallen raid stacks up.

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What makes a good raid?

by Funkmon @, Thursday, June 30, 2016, 23:54 (2828 days ago) @ Cody Miller

1. Being able to be carried as long as you're fine at the general game.
It's very very difficult to get through King's Fall without 100% of the team being good, and I tend to get bored after a half hour and start screwing around. I need this option. Like most encounters in VoG and Crota's End, if you suck, no problem, people can help you, or you get the job of shooting bad guys.
2. VoG rewards.
I want to be able to get elemental primaries from the final boss, hit max level from running the normal raid, and have the best guns come from the hardest parts at truly random intervals.

That's what I want. If it was literally a series of corridors, I'd be fine with it, but I guess your other stuff like inspiring awe is important as well. And the letdowns, too. I do like those run through mazes after a boss sections.

15% chance of this post getting through the spam filter.

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What makes a good raid?

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Tuesday, July 05, 2016, 15:28 (2823 days ago) @ Funkmon

1. Being able to be carried as long as you're fine at the general game.
It's very very difficult to get through King's Fall without 100% of the team being good, and I tend to get bored after a half hour and start screwing around.

...which makes it that much harder to succeed. I know I'm not as good as most of the regulars, but I don't want to play if my playing is frustrating people. I'll be direct with this question, though: When does the half hour of Funkmon being focused on the game begin? I can't tell a lot of the time.

I'm bad enough that I HAVE to focus to succeed during a raid, and unfortunately I'm easily distracted by chatter. I breezed through three rounds of the Warpriest the other week without you, and maybe that's a sign that we shouldn't raid together. You're an entertaining guy and I like you, but I don't want to play if I feel like I'm forcing everyone to concentrate such that it's interfering with a listening session of the Detroit Home Companion starring Funkmon.

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What makes a good raid?

by ProbablyLast, Tuesday, July 05, 2016, 19:46 (2823 days ago) @ Kermit
edited by ProbablyLast, Tuesday, July 05, 2016, 19:53

That's where King's Fall fails in my opinion. Video games are supposed to be fun. When people start snapping at each other because they are so worried about a single misstep, it isn't fun. I won't even sign up for an Oryx challenge mode run because of how serious people take it.

That said, I think failing at Warpriest repeatedly is some weird thing that just happens randomly. The fight is so dull and repetitive that people get careless.


Of course, I'd rather run the raid while listening to music.

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What makes a good raid?

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Tuesday, July 05, 2016, 20:04 (2823 days ago) @ ProbablyLast

That's where King's Fall fails in my opinion. Video games are supposed to be fun. When people start snapping at each other because they are so worried about a single misstep, it isn't fun. I won't even sign up for an Oryx challenge mode run because of how serious people take it.

That said, I think failing at Warpriest repeatedly is some weird thing that just happens randomly. The fight is so dull and repetitive that people get careless.


Of course, I'd rather run the raid while listening to music.

I guess I hear what you're saying in that one player dying is usually a wipe. I wouldn't put too much blame on KF, though. I regularly play with a group where no one really snaps at anyone, after hours of failing to kill the Warpriest, for example. That's not to say no one gets frustrated. It's just that any expressed frustration is self-directed.

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What makes a good raid?

by ProbablyLast, Tuesday, July 05, 2016, 21:28 (2823 days ago) @ Kermit

FWIW, you are on a short list of people I genuinely enjoy raiding with. Overall, DBO is a fun group of people to play with whenever you guys have room for me.

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That's nice to hear.

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Wednesday, July 06, 2016, 00:06 (2823 days ago) @ ProbablyLast

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What makes a good raid?

by Phoenix_9286 @, Tuesday, July 05, 2016, 20:34 (2823 days ago) @ ProbablyLast

That's where King's Fall fails in my opinion. Video games are supposed to be fun. When people start snapping at each other because they are so worried about a single misstep, it isn't fun. I won't even sign up for an Oryx challenge mode run because of how serious people take it.

That said, I think failing at Warpriest repeatedly is some weird thing that just happens randomly. The fight is so dull and repetitive that people get careless.


Of course, I'd rather run the raid while listening to music.

Running King's Fall makes me want to eat glass.

The Vault is just straight up fun.
Crota is like a strike on steroids considering how fast it can be run.
King's Fall is awful.

It's a brutal bitch of endless mechanics that all have nearly zero tolerance for any deviation or failure. One person died? Wipe. Not enough damage done on a round because everyone was just a few seconds slow? Wipe. Miss a jump trying to take out the sisters? Wipe. It doesn't help that the bits in between the precision clockwork madness that are the boss fights are largely platforming, and I hate and suck at platforming. And rewards? What rewards? Yay! Primary ammo synths and motes and Moldering Shard... things... Oh, and occasionally an actual high light piece of gear that I don't like the look of, or don't much care to use, and so immediately use for infusion fodder. At least when I run the Vault or Crota I feel like I'm getting something valuable, despite the fact it's all garbage at this point. I also dislike how pigeon holed I feel when it comes to the gear one should ideally be running. It isn't fun when one doesn't particularly enjoy sniping, yet the best way to take out every boss is to blow them away with Black Spindle repeatedly. Also, you know, god help you if you haven't managed to trudge through the shitshow that is GETTING Black Spindle (even if I had one, and I don't, it'd be another weapon I'd have to infuse the crap out of to be useful, which is a waste for a gun I have no desire to use 99% of the time).

Ugh.

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Good rewards.

by ProbablyLast, Friday, July 01, 2016, 00:50 (2828 days ago) @ Cody Miller
edited by ProbablyLast, Friday, July 01, 2016, 01:20

King's fall is obviously a really good raid, but since the rewards are overall pretty underwhelming the raid lost it's appeal to me pretty early on in Year 2.

I'd rather have a Found Verdict drop for me today than any of the current Raid weapons.

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Challenge versus Fun versus Rewards

by cheapLEY @, Friday, July 01, 2016, 02:50 (2828 days ago) @ ProbablyLast

I loved doing King's Fall the first time, with the challenge of figuring things out.

I hate doing King's Fall now. I haven't done it recently--I think the last time I ran it was the week before Challenge Mode launched. I'm sure it's changed and is probably much easier now.

It's still not as fun to do repeatedly while bullshitting with friends as Vault of Glass. And that's ultimately what I want out of a Raid. If they're going to continue to rely on folks raiding week after week to get the drops they want, then it needs to be fun and relaxed enough to do it without the timing and execution that King's Fall requires. Or at least that's what needs to happen for me to care. I'll join Kermit's blind team for the new Raid, and probably run it a few more times afterwards, but if it's as demanding as King's Fall is, I'll forget about it, just like I did with King's Fall after the first month.

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Challenge versus Fun versus Rewards

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, July 01, 2016, 04:01 (2828 days ago) @ cheapLEY

The Tuesday raid was not only pretty smooth, but we had plenty of time for bullshitting. I had a really good time. Might make me want to do a flawless...

When Cody Miller doesn't mess it up

by TheeChaos @, Friday, July 01, 2016, 14:02 (2827 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Just kidding. I had to.

I got a good laugh.

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When Cody Miller doesn't mess it up

by Speedracer513 @, Dallas, Texas, Friday, July 01, 2016, 17:09 (2827 days ago) @ TheeChaos

Just kidding. I had to.

I got a good laugh.

And you gave a good laugh to others :-)

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When Cody Miller doesn't mess it up

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, July 01, 2016, 23:54 (2827 days ago) @ Speedracer513

Just kidding. I had to.

I got a good laugh.


And you gave a good laugh to others :-)

Hey, I thought I did pretty well on Oryx on Tuesday :-p

Plenty of cheese. Grated and grilled is preferable

by Raflection, Friday, July 01, 2016, 18:21 (2827 days ago) @ Cody Miller

- No text -

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Can you grill cheese?

by Funkmon @, Friday, July 01, 2016, 18:27 (2827 days ago) @ Raflection

- No text -

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Of course you can

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Friday, July 01, 2016, 22:11 (2827 days ago) @ Funkmon

[image]

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What makes a good raid?

by Kahzgul, Friday, July 01, 2016, 20:22 (2827 days ago) @ Cody Miller

The best weapons and armor should be needed to defeat the hardest enemies. They should not be rewards from the hardest enemies. Rather, the rewards for beating the hardest enemies should be purely cosmetic bragging rights items, like shaders, emblems, and ships. I absolutely hate that good players who are able to beat a raid boss are suddenly given an easier time beating that boss down the line, creating a "skilled players have vastly better gear AND more skill than unskilled players" situation (which then carries over into PvP). You should also not have to be able to clear the raid in order to compete in top tier PvP (though I'm fine with it helping - I just don't want it to be necessary like it was in VoG days). Similarly, you should not need PvP gear in order to be a successful raider (hasn't happened yet, but I want to make sure everyone knows I view this as a two way street).

I also love the exploration and wonder of VoG and KF. I know you say there isn't any in KF, but I think the initial spaceship jumping puzzle is full of wonder - it's gorgeous and fantastic. Even the golgoroth maze is pretty cool that way, though I wish the doors were randomly open or closed each time so you had to find a different way through the maze every run of the raid.

I also think that raid encounters should have room for players to step up and be "clutch." I dislike the Oryx fight because if someone dies, it's a wipe no matter what. There's no cushion of time where an aware player can take action to save the day. Die on a pressure plate, it's a wipe. Die if you have the spark, it's a wipe. I think the most fun raid encounters (and most memorable ones) are the ones where something unexpected happen and someone had to break ranks and go a little crazy to save the day. I remember my first Aetheon kill, two of us were almost completely blind as we came out for the final round of DPS, and the whole rest of the raid was dead, just screaming at us to shoot him for that last pixel of health. And thank god Gjallerhorn tracked because I couldn't hit beans with my sniper rifle, but the other guy just jumped up, aimed about where he thought the rocket should go, and brought the big guy down. It was amazing.

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What makes a good raid?

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, July 01, 2016, 23:50 (2827 days ago) @ Kahzgul
edited by Cody Miller, Friday, July 01, 2016, 23:53

The best weapons and armor should be needed to defeat the hardest enemies. They should not be rewards from the hardest enemies. Rather, the rewards for beating the hardest enemies should be purely cosmetic bragging rights items, like shaders, emblems, and ships. I absolutely hate that good players who are able to beat a raid boss are suddenly given an easier time beating that boss down the line, creating a "skilled players have vastly better gear AND more skill than unskilled players" situation (which then carries over into PvP).

This is just how it works when you design your game around shitty principles. If the game were properly designed, then you would acquire weapons and skills as the game progresses, each of which is unique, helpful, and requires mastery to use effectively. Then, the challenges you face would require you to outright exploit the stuff you've earned and learned in order to succeed. You wouldn't get anything from the final boss in a raid unless there was another harder challenge down the line.

Sometimes I feel like the subclass skills in Destiny aren't very well designed, since in all honesty you can spec any way you want and still beat any challenge in the game with about the same level of difficulty you could with another spec. In other words, the skills don't dramatically change your strategies in PvE. In Deus Ex, two different players who built up JC Denton in two different ways would have dramatically different approaches to things. That maybe has more to do with the FPS elements being less a part of Deus Ex than they are in Destiny.

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About Subclasses

by Kahzgul, Monday, July 04, 2016, 15:10 (2824 days ago) @ Cody Miller

You're absolutely right about Deus Ex, but that's also one character who has to be able to become every playstyle the game wants to support.

In Destiny, you have 3 classes right off the bat, so you can assume Titan players want to be a bit tanky, Warlocks want to be a bit magic-y (ability-oriented, if you will), and Hunters like being fast and nimble. That being said, I find the specs interesting in that for PvE they are largely unimportant so long as you're the proper subclass for a fight. In PvP, the spec is hugely important, though subclass makes very little difference.

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Being awesome.

by narcogen ⌂ @, Andover, Massachusetts, Friday, July 01, 2016, 23:08 (2827 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I thought you knew?

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Being awesome.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, July 01, 2016, 23:44 (2827 days ago) @ narcogen
edited by Cody Miller, Friday, July 01, 2016, 23:57

I thought you knew?

Well duh, but that would have been too short a post.

(Also, it is not just awesome, but awesome per second) See? I got made fun of when I posted that on HBO, but here 7 years later Extra Credits espouses my philosophy.

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Being awesome.

by narcogen ⌂ @, Andover, Massachusetts, Sunday, July 03, 2016, 10:59 (2825 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I thought you knew?


Well duh, but that would have been too short a post.

You won't get that complaint from me!

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What makes a good raid?

by dogcow @, Hiding from Bob, in the vent core., Saturday, July 02, 2016, 18:00 (2826 days ago) @ Cody Miller

It needs to be the right length with good pacing. Kings fall was too long. IMHO it would have been better as 2 separate raids.

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What makes a good raid?

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Saturday, July 02, 2016, 18:04 (2826 days ago) @ dogcow

It needs to be the right length with good pacing. Kings fall was too long. IMHO it would have been better as 2 separate raids.

All the bosses in 1 raid, and then nothing but jumping puzzles in the 2nd raid, just for Slycrel ;)

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Yes pls.

by ProbablyLast, Saturday, July 02, 2016, 19:05 (2826 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

I would run the all-jumping puzzle raid 10x a week.

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Ditto

by CyberKN ⌂ @, Oh no, Destiny 2 is bad, Saturday, July 02, 2016, 20:40 (2826 days ago) @ ProbablyLast

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What makes a good raid?

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Saturday, July 02, 2016, 19:38 (2826 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

It needs to be the right length with good pacing. Kings fall was too long. IMHO it would have been better as 2 separate raids.


All the bosses in 1 raid, and then nothing but jumping puzzles in the 2nd raid, just for Slycrel ;)

Well, VoG was inspired by Megaman. Kings Fall by Double Dragon. So that means…

BATTLETOADS! Get ready for a sparrow speederbike section Either that or a snake climb!

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I want nothing more than I want a Maw run raid

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Saturday, July 02, 2016, 20:41 (2826 days ago) @ Cody Miller

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hahaha! Also, I hate you. ;)

by slycrel ⌂, Sunday, July 03, 2016, 00:44 (2826 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

- No text -

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I still believe...

by slycrel ⌂, Sunday, July 03, 2016, 02:04 (2826 days ago) @ dogcow

...that king's fall would be greatly enhanced by more than one route, with multiple paths through. So you could feel good about clearing through over multiple days, or if you wanted a specific boss then you could go pretty well straight to them, with a few key sections in the way.

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I still believe...

by dogcow @, Hiding from Bob, in the vent core., Sunday, July 03, 2016, 12:43 (2825 days ago) @ slycrel

I've had that thought, my concern with it would be that 'the community' would decide which path was best and nobody would run the alternate path. Maybe this could be mitigated by guarantees drops on various weeks.

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well...

by slycrel ⌂, Monday, July 04, 2016, 01:17 (2825 days ago) @ dogcow

This is how most raids work in MMOs like world of warcraft. Some bosses get less love, it's true... but unique boss drops and quests help players prioritize fights that are optional. This also gives rise to more potential boss fights in general, with the exploration of mechanics. A mediocre mechanics boss could be a mid-level optional drops boss and still be fun without requiring people to tire of it over and over.

Look at challenge mode -- it sort of works this way. Boss X is the flavor of the week and nobody cares about much else. I think there's merit to that, but the current implementation is too skewed.

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What makes a good raid?

by CyberKN ⌂ @, Oh no, Destiny 2 is bad, Tuesday, July 05, 2016, 20:40 (2823 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I have a few answers to this question (which I intend to compile into a mini-essay... if I ever get around to it), but suffice it to say the single most important thing a raid can do is feel mechanically new and unique.

VoG does this. CE and Kings Fall not so much.

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