Reputation Boosters for Silver

https://m.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/52s9st/you_can_finally_buy_crucible_vanguard_and_hoj/

Uh oh. If true, surely now we're crossing that Pay To Win line?

Edit: The "its not P2W" argument seems to be that you can also buy rep with motes/coins. But this is still an advantage. I don't know how I feel about any of this.

Edit 2: Apparently this was already a thing, because you could get them from Sterling Treasures. Which were RNG. So this development is simultaneously better (fuck RNG microtransactions) and worse (even easier to P2W now). Interesting. Gross?

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They should just take boosters out of the game, and globally raise rep accumulation rates.

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They should just take boosters out of the game, and globally raise rep accumulation rates.

Correct.

Either they adjust balance to the faster rate of accumulation, which means not using them is painful, or else those who use them just get way ahead and make the game too easy. I guess the third alternative is that the advantage they give is slight, but then why buy them? Either way, the idea sucks. The very idea of boosters is a bad one. As you say, if gaining rep at the faster rate is more interesting and makes the game better, that should just be the rate for everyone.

It's like they are trying to get me to quit like I quit Deus Ex. Believe me, that was painful but they crossed a line. That line will probably be crossed for Destiny when you can buy things like strange coins, weapon parts, exotic shards, etc.

The old Bungie never would have done this, nor would they have farmed stuff out to High Moon.

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The old Bungie never would have done this, nor would they have farmed stuff out to High Moon.

Wasn't Marathon Infinity largely "farmed out"?

And what about Certain Affinity with Halo multiplayer maps? (some truly excellent ones, I might add)

And Myth 2: Chimera?

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The old Bungie never would have done this, nor would they have farmed stuff out to High Moon.

Wasn't Marathon Infinity largely "farmed out"?

And what about Certain Affinity with Halo multiplayer maps? (some truly excellent ones, I might add)

And Myth 2: Chimera?

That's different.

First of all, none of those were new games. Infinity ran on the M2 engine and was basically a new scenario pack with new textures.

Second, they did that because the core teams were busy working on the next real game.

High Moon should have been handling the updates to Destiny 1 if it were the same thing.

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The old Bungie never would have done this, nor would they have farmed stuff out to High Moon.

Wasn't Marathon Infinity largely "farmed out"?

And what about Certain Affinity with Halo multiplayer maps? (some truly excellent ones, I might add)

And Myth 2: Chimera?

That's different.

First of all, none of those were new games. Infinity ran on the M2 engine and was basically a new scenario pack with new textures.

Second, they did that because the core teams were busy working on the next real game.

High Moon should have been handling the updates to Destiny 1 if it were the same thing.

We don't actually know what High Moon IS handling, but the common theory is that they're working on expansions for Des2ny.

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The advantage of raising faction rep quicker is miniscule at this point, honestly. After the first, what, week of an expansion? People are going to have most vendor legendaries right then. That just leaves grinding for ships, shaders, etc.

Now if we were paying for raid quality gear, THEN we might grab the pitchforks.

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I don't know that there's many people playing "collect them all" with vendor gear compared to those looking for "god rolls". Look at the current gearsets - "Raid Quality" doesn't mean a thing in a meta that barely uses raid weapons.

If there was no randomness, and this was just a faster way to acquire all the preset gear I'd still feel pretty squicked out by it, but given that every rep package is another chance at a significant advantage (especially early in the expansion), Im definitely concerned.

At the same time, you could get a god roll from your first ever package as the most casual player. Or never get one despite buying hundreds of boosters. I don't know if RNG makes it better or worse, tbh.

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Doesn't everybody already have a god roll of something? I can't imagine that the new Rise of Iron weapons are going to suddenly blow away the rolls everyone has with Rifled Stock and Armor Pericing Barrel and Skip It... or whatever.

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The advantage of raising faction rep quicker is miniscule at this point, honestly.

Cruel started a new character. He goes to buy something from the crucible vendor. "Oh, dang. I have to be Rank 3." Minuscule indeed :-p

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The advantage of raising faction rep quicker is miniscule at this point, honestly. After the first, what, week of an expansion? People are going to have most vendor legendaries right then. That just leaves grinding for ships, shaders, etc.

Now if we were paying for raid quality gear, THEN we might grab the pitchforks.

Ever since the April update, there have been weapons that are ONLY available through reputation packages. If you want a Year 2 Devil You Know, Vanguard rep packages are the only place to get it.

At the moment, I don't think any of these weapons are truly top-tier, but they light be in the future.

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The advantage of raising faction rep quicker is miniscule at this point, honestly. After the first, what, week of an expansion? People are going to have most vendor legendaries right then. That just leaves grinding for ships, shaders, etc.

Now if we were paying for raid quality gear, THEN we might grab the pitchforks.

Ever since the April update, there have been weapons that are ONLY available through reputation packages. If you want a Year 2 Devil You Know, Vanguard rep packages are the only place to get it.

At the moment, I don't think any of these weapons are truly top-tier, but they light be in the future.

Kind of like when I Sharded Thorn. 6 shots? Low stability? Lame. Well then the update came.

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Yeah, from what I understand Silver Dust is what you get when you dismantle ornaments, and then you can buy some stuff (like the lens artifacts) from Eververse without spending any money.

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Is there an FAQ on this stuff somewhere? I know nothing about it.

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Is there an FAQ on this stuff somewhere? I know nothing about it.

I mean, you will probably discover what it is within a few hours of playing the game.

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Still not there yet. Still not close, though it's an odd inbetween. It's more like pay not to play? Leveling up and boosting up is so grindy that they hope you hate it enough to pay to speed it up? That's its own area of something I don't like and I feel is poor game design and player-hostile, but it's not pay to win. Pretty sure Bungie's gonna try as hard as they can to avoid pay to win. Doesn't mean they won't trample over other things to try to make a quick buck.

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The weird thing about this is that I play the same amount of strikes or crucible with or without a booster active. It does make those experiences incrementally more rewarding in regard to game rewards, but it doesn't actually impact my personal play time. Mostly I just use them if my schedule allows me 75-120 minutes to play.

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I'm not terribly worried about this, but it does seem like they keep edging closer to the line, and that's what concerns me now. Still, a large number of people are concerned, it's probably better to just back off. Pull the rep boosters, they don't need to cause this much of a headache.

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it's probably better to just back off. Pull the rep boosters, they don't need to cause this much of a headache.

I don't think it's a headache for them. They just pull this kindof crap and rake in the money--I don't think they're terribly concerned what the hardcore minority thinks. If this was a major pain in the ass for them and/or not making money, it wouldn't be happening.

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IGN has a short article about PS exclusives and pay to win. Here's the excerpt on pay to win:

"We certainly have a goal of never being pay to win," said Barrett. "That’s part of the goal of Destiny. We’ve set that bar for ourselves. It’s really just a lot of feedback from internally at Bungie, and we’re always thinking, 'Hey, is that going too far into that territory?' Generally, we all go back to not even getting close."
Derek Carroll, PvP Lead for the live team, said that playing the game themselves helps the developers when deciding what to do with the game.
"When we’re proposing these things, the whole studio is like, 'I know how that would affect me,'" he said. "You’re able to really clearly put yourself in the players' shoes, and go, 'I would be really mad if you did that.' We try not to do things that would make us mad. And we assume other people have the same bar."

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So where was that line of thinking for the PS exclusives until 2017? Those are just words. I think it's highly probable it will go pay to win or at least into the realm of scumminess at some point.

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So where was that line of thinking for the PS exclusives until 2017? Those are just words. I think it's highly probable it will go pay to win or at least into the realm of scumminess at some point.

He directly mentions exclusives in the article, it's an agreement made with the publishers. I'm pretty sure I know though what happened with the PS exclusives by the way. The agreement most likely said that the exclusives would be that way until Destiny 2, but then, as we know, Destiny 2 got pushed back until next year. So when they originally stated until at least Fall 2016, that was based on the original timeline, but the agreement with Sony didn't have a date, but an event listed.

I'm not expecting them to go true pay to win unless Activision strong arms them into it.

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So where was that line of thinking for the PS exclusives until 2017? Those are just words. I think it's highly probable it will go pay to win or at least into the realm of scumminess at some point.

He directly mentions exclusives in the article, it's an agreement made with the publishers. I'm pretty sure I know though what happened with the PS exclusives by the way. The agreement most likely said that the exclusives would be that way until Destiny 2, but then, as we know, Destiny 2 got pushed back until next year. So when they originally stated until at least Fall 2016, that was based on the original timeline, but the agreement with Sony didn't have a date, but an event listed.

And also "Those are just words" is one of the most useless things to say, what proof do you have they will go pay to win? Any evidence to actually give us, or just a pessimistic attitude?

His pessimistic attitude has more evidence to back it up than the reassuring statements coming from Bungie. It is a fact that Bungie/Activision have been slowly but steadily pushing the envelope further and further when it comes to microtransactions. It is very deliberate; they know a sudden lurch forward into full-blown "mobile gaming" monetization would spark outrage in the community, so they go a tiny little bit at a time. There are complaints, but a few months later we all just accept it as the "new normal", then they push a little further.

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So where was that line of thinking for the PS exclusives until 2017? Those are just words. I think it's highly probable it will go pay to win or at least into the realm of scumminess at some point.

He directly mentions exclusives in the article, it's an agreement made with the publishers. I'm pretty sure I know though what happened with the PS exclusives by the way. The agreement most likely said that the exclusives would be that way until Destiny 2, but then, as we know, Destiny 2 got pushed back until next year. So when they originally stated until at least Fall 2016, that was based on the original timeline, but the agreement with Sony didn't have a date, but an event listed.

And also "Those are just words" is one of the most useless things to say, what proof do you have they will go pay to win? Any evidence to actually give us, or just a pessimistic attitude?

His pessimistic attitude has more evidence to back it up than the reassuring statements coming from Bungie. It is a fact that Bungie/Activision have been slowly but steadily pushing the envelope further and further when it comes to microtransactions. It is very deliberate; they know a sudden lurch forward into full-blown "mobile gaming" monetization would spark outrage in the community, so they go a tiny little bit at a time. There are complaints, but a few months later we all just accept it as the "new normal", then they push a little further.

We are a very large way away from pay to win. It very much feels like a slippery slope argument.

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So where was that line of thinking for the PS exclusives until 2017? Those are just words. I think it's highly probable it will go pay to win or at least into the realm of scumminess at some point.

He directly mentions exclusives in the article, it's an agreement made with the publishers. I'm pretty sure I know though what happened with the PS exclusives by the way. The agreement most likely said that the exclusives would be that way until Destiny 2, but then, as we know, Destiny 2 got pushed back until next year. So when they originally stated until at least Fall 2016, that was based on the original timeline, but the agreement with Sony didn't have a date, but an event listed.

And also "Those are just words" is one of the most useless things to say, what proof do you have they will go pay to win? Any evidence to actually give us, or just a pessimistic attitude?

His pessimistic attitude has more evidence to back it up than the reassuring statements coming from Bungie. It is a fact that Bungie/Activision have been slowly but steadily pushing the envelope further and further when it comes to microtransactions. It is very deliberate; they know a sudden lurch forward into full-blown "mobile gaming" monetization would spark outrage in the community, so they go a tiny little bit at a time. There are complaints, but a few months later we all just accept it as the "new normal", then they push a little further.

We are a very large way away from pay to win. It very much feels like a slippery slope argument.

I wouldn't call this "pay to win" either. But as I said in my comment below, this does create a situation where people who pay extra money get more loot than those who don't (assuming equal playtimes). Keep in mind, these rep packages contain loot that cannot be obtained any other way. The only reason nobody is freaking out right now is because none of the exclusive rep package drops are particularly great, but that could change at any time.

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I wouldn't call this "pay to win" either. But as I said in my comment below, this does create a situation where people who pay extra money get more loot than those who don't (assuming equal playtimes). Keep in mind, these rep packages contain loot that cannot be obtained any other way. The only reason nobody is freaking out right now is because none of the exclusive rep package drops are particularly great, but that could change at any time.

Honestly, the reason I'm not freaking out is because the bonus it gives is so insignificant in the long run that's it's not a big deal. They only give a small boost to rep (10%), and don't even affect bounties. If someone were to pay money for a reputation booster they would get an extra package for every 10 that I get, and not even that since bounties will make it even lower. That's pretty insignificant.

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I wouldn't call this "pay to win" either. But as I said in my comment below, this does create a situation where people who pay extra money get more loot than those who don't (assuming equal playtimes). Keep in mind, these rep packages contain loot that cannot be obtained any other way. The only reason nobody is freaking out right now is because none of the exclusive rep package drops are particularly great, but that could change at any time.

Honestly, the reason I'm not freaking out is because the bonus it gives is so insignificant in the long run that's it's not a big deal. They only give a small boost to rep (20% I think?), and don't even affect bounties. If someone were to pay money for a reputation booster they would get an extra package for every 5 that I get. That's pretty insignificant.

I agree that it isn't significant. I'm not worked up about this or anything. But regardless of how major or minor the difference is, the fact that there is any difference at all is problematic, and justifies concern for the future. Bungie have shown that they are willing to give more game-effecting stuff to players who throw extra money at the game. If this is the state of things now, imagine how it will look in 8 years.

I firmly believe they will continue to push the limit until they break things completely. Why wouldn't they?

*edit*

Just to clarify that final statement, I'm not saying Bungie will break things completely, I'm saying that breaking the game (ie causing a significant drop in sales and/or the player base) is the only reason Bungie would change their current approach. In other words, they will keep pushing micro transactions further and further as long as the player base "allows" it.

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I firmly believe they will continue to push the limit until they break things completely. Why wouldn't they?

The logical answer: because they know if they push it too far they will push away loyal players. There is a line before the actual pay to win line that is too far for consumers, especially for a game that you pay money for up front, and for each expansion, and we are still even a long ways away from that line.

By the way I went and checked, it's 10% not 20%, I fixed my post, but you respond to quickly ;)

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I firmly believe they will continue to push the limit until they break things completely. Why wouldn't they?

The logical answer: because they know if they push it too far they will push away loyal players. There is a line before the actual pay to win line that is too far for consumers, especially for a game that you pay money for up front, and for each expansion, and we are still even a long ways away from that line.

By the way I went and checked, it's 10% not 20%, I fixed my post, but you respond to quickly ;)

And my entire point is that they won't know how far is "too far" until they hit it. And for every well-intentioned designer at Bungie, there is someone else (either within the company or within Activision) who is looking at growth potential and new potential revenue streams who is saying "how can we get a little more money this year than we made last year?".

I don't think I'm being wildly negative here... This is just common business practices, as I see it.

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I firmly believe they will continue to push the limit until they break things completely. Why wouldn't they?

The logical answer: because they know if they push it too far they will push away loyal players. There is a line before the actual pay to win line that is too far for consumers, especially for a game that you pay money for up front, and for each expansion, and we are still even a long ways away from that line.

By the way I went and checked, it's 10% not 20%, I fixed my post, but you respond to quickly ;)

And my entire point is that they won't know how far is "too far" until they hit it. And for every well-intentioned designer at Bungie, there is someone else (either within the company or within Activision) who is looking at growth potential and new potential revenue streams who is saying "how can we get a little more money this year than we made last year?".

I don't think I'm being wildly negative here... This is just common business practices, as I see it.

Between the well-intentioned designer and the person-who-actually-controls-the-money is there really any doubt where this is going? We shouldn't expect any decisions that won't support maximum return on such a huge investment. If we get any in favor of the designer I can say with some confidence they are a happy accident.

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Why wouldn't they?

Because they are gamers too? Because they too have ethics? Because they care about their community? Because they're not all heartless greedy monsters?

Why is it that we must absolutely assume that the worst possible scenario will eventually come to pass? :(

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Why wouldn't they?

Because they are gamers too? Because they too have ethics? Because they care about their community? Because they're not all heartless greedy monsters?

Why is it that we must absolutely assume that the worst possible scenario will eventually come to pass? :(

I don't mean to come off as pessimistic, I'm simply being pragmatic about the nature of big businesses.

I'm not talking about "worst case scenarios", I'm talking about common business practices.

My high school basketball coach once asked our team a question during practice:

"If you run a play and it works, how many more times should you run the same play before you change things up?"

After a bunch of us yelled out arbitrary answers, he followed up:

"You run it until it doesn't work anymore. If you run the exact same play 100 times in a row and you score every time, why would you ever run another play? You run it until they stop you".

This lesson applies directly to the business world.

What play has Bungie run with their micro transactions so far? They keep "pushing the envelope" a tiny bit at a time. People complain, but not so much that it effects their player base. So they wait until we're all used to the current setup, then they push it a little further. It's worked every single time, so I see absolutely no reason for them to ever stop, unless they finally do hit that tipping point where players drop off.

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Why wouldn't they?

Because they are gamers too? Because they too have ethics? Because they care about their community? Because they're not all heartless greedy monsters?

Why is it that we must absolutely assume that the worst possible scenario will eventually come to pass? :(

I don't mean to come off as pessimistic, I'm simply being pragmatic about the nature of big businesses.

I'm not talking about "worst case scenarios", I'm talking about common business practices.

My high school basketball coach once asked our team a question during practice:

"If you run a play and it works, how many more times should you run the same play before you change things up?"

After a bunch of us yelled out arbitrary answers, he followed up:

"You run it until it doesn't work anymore. If you run the exact same play 100 times in a row and you score every time, why would you ever run another play? You run it until they stop you".

This lesson applies directly to the business world.

What play has Bungie run with their micro transactions so far? They keep "pushing the envelope" a tiny bit at a time. People complain, but not so much that it effects their player base. So they wait until we're all used to the current setup, then they push it a little further. It's worked every single time, so I see absolutely no reason for them to ever stop, unless they finally do hit that tipping point where players drop off.

This is completely unbelievable. Basketball is an American sport. You should have said Hockey. ;)

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I think I understand where you are coming from for the most part. Where I get lost is this:

They keep "pushing the envelope" a tiny bit at a time.

I'm trying hard to find a difference between this incident and all the other incidents where people have gotten upset over microtransactions. To me, it feels like more of the same. Pay a little more money and you have a higher chance of RNG rewarding you. It definitely makes me uncomfortable, but I don't participate and it hasn't broken the game. How is this specifically different than the other actions in this vein?

Last time around, you could buy a more expensive version of the game, get a sweet/useless cloak, and it boosted your rep rewards. I guess I just don't see the envelope being pushed so much as they keep it putting it in the same spot and it feels a little icky each time.

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I think I understand where you are coming from for the most part. Where I get lost is this:

They keep "pushing the envelope" a tiny bit at a time.

I'm trying hard to find a difference between this incident and all the other incidents where people have gotten upset over microtransactions. To me, it feels like more of the same. Pay a little more money and you have a higher chance of RNG rewarding you. It definitely makes me uncomfortable, but I don't participate and it hasn't broken the game. How is this specifically different than the other actions in this vein?

Last time around, you could buy a more expensive version of the game, get a sweet/useless cloak, and it boosted your rep rewards. I guess I just don't see the envelope being pushed so much as they keep it putting it in the same spot and it feels a little icky each time.

It strikes me as being *slightly* different than previous micro transactions because buying these boosters leads directly to more unique legendary drops. In the past, everything you could buy was purely cosmetic (or in the case of certain pre-order bonuses, low level gear that was useless after the first 5 hours).

I'll be the first person to stand up and say "this is a really minor thing". I just feel it is important to see the distinction between these micro transactions and the ones that have come before. Plus, it helps map a trajectory. We've gone from buying emotes to buying vanity armor (which could be infused up to max level) and now we're buying a slightly higher drop-rate for end game rewards. It shows a pattern.

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I'll be the first person to stand up and say "this is a really minor thing". I just feel it is important to see the distinction between these micro transactions and the ones that have come before. Plus, it helps map a trajectory. We've gone from buying emotes to buying vanity armor (which could be infused up to max level) and now we're buying a slightly higher drop-rate for end game rewards. It shows a pattern.

Fair enough. I guess I'm just seeing it from a different angle. Pretty much every purchasable non-cosmetic reward has come in the form of a rep boost. Red Bull: rep boost. Collectors Edition: Rep Boost. Current fiasco: rep boost.

I see a pattern too, but it doesn't involve moving the envelope. It seems that they've found a reward they can live with and are holding the line.

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I'll be the first person to stand up and say "this is a really minor thing". I just feel it is important to see the distinction between these micro transactions and the ones that have come before. Plus, it helps map a trajectory. We've gone from buying emotes to buying vanity armor (which could be infused up to max level) and now we're buying a slightly higher drop-rate for end game rewards. It shows a pattern.

Fair enough. I guess I'm just seeing it from a different angle. Pretty much every purchasable non-cosmetic reward has come in the form of a rep boost. Red Bull: rep boost. Collectors Edition: Rep Boost. Current fiasco: rep boost.

I see a pattern too, but it doesn't involve moving the envelope. It seems that they've found a reward they can live with and are holding the line.

That's certainly possible. I actually hope you are right :)

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That's certainly possible. I actually hope you are right :)

I hope so too. I don't like the idea of microtransactions, but so far I haven't been harmed by them. I'm much more upset about console exclusives...

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Every single time? Yeah it sounds awful phrased that way. In reality we have what, two real data points? Emotes and the treasure boxes? In my opinion that makes your use of "every single time" unnecessary pessimistic.

Neither addition of micro transactions so far has ended the world. In fact, I'd argue that people actually like the additional emotes they can but and that the stuff in the treasure boxes are handed out so often just for playing normally that in effect we got two new armor sets for free half a year after the last paid expansion.

If Bungie's actions so far have made most of its user base happy then I hope they follow your coach's advice!

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Combining purchasable RNG items with a limited time event was especially uncool.

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especially now that they are taking up vault space with no other way to save them.

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Combining purchasable RNG items with a limited time event was especially uncool.

Limited time event or not, I disapprove. I also hate lotteries. It's a stupidity tax, for one thing. it's worse when a government does it, but Bungie has no reason to be proud of allowing that dynamic.

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Every single time? Yeah it sounds awful phrased that way. In reality we have what, two real data points? Emotes and the treasure boxes? In my opinion that makes your use of "every single time" unnecessary pessimistic.

Actually, we have 4 data points:

1) No micro transactions
2) emotes
3) Sterling packages (which might contain armor and boosters)
4) Booster (which lead directly to higher drop rates of end-game gear)

That is a very clear and obvious trajectory.

Neither addition of micro transactions so far has ended the world.

Of course not. I'm not saying this one will either. Quite the opposite. My entire point is that Bungie is being very careful to push things forward SLOWLY. They're easing MTs into the game at a very gradual pace, so that the community doesn't freak out.

In fact, I'd argue that people actually like the additional emotes they can but and that the stuff in the treasure boxes are handed out so often just for playing normally that in effect we got two new armor sets for free half a year after the last paid expansion.

I agree that the emotes are great! I have absolutely zero problem with buying fun little vanity items like that. I'm less of a fan of the sterling packages (regardless of $ vs free, I just think they're a kinda cheesy). My entire point from the beginning is that this latest move is an extremely minor one, but significant because it is crossing into new territory in terms of what we can buy.

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I view #3 and #4 as the same thing which would mean your line was crossed months ago... unless I'm just horribly mistaken about whats going on. Even then, personally, I don't see it as a problem.

If someone spends as much as they can they'll get what, an extra legendary once every several weeks? Even if you were constantly getting a 100% boost you'd only get like one extra drop a week compared to me. Most of the people I play with have their Vaults stuffed with Legendaries, is one more really going to matter?

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I view #3 and #4 as the same thing which would mean your line was crossed months ago... unless I'm just horribly mistaken about whats going on. Even then, personally, I don't see it as a problem.

#3 was buying an item that contained an RNG chance for a booster... #4 is buying the booster directly. I'm not the one who used the term "slippery slope", but I do think it applies here :) You are literally saying "we already have something almost as bad, so what's the big deal?"

If someone spends as much as they can they'll get what, an extra legendary once every several weeks? Even if you were constantly getting a 100% boost you'd only get like one extra drop a week compared to me.

If Reddit is accurate, then the boosters almost double your rep gains once you get a chain of strikes or PvP matches happening.

Most of the people I play with have their Vaults stuffed with Legendaries, is one more really going to matter?

I never, ever, said it was a big deal or that it was going to make a big difference to our day-to-day playtime. I feel like you're arguing with a point of view that I am not promoting.

All I've said this whole time is that the game now exists in a state where people who spend money on micro transactions get more end-game loot than those who don't. The fact that it is only "a tiny bit more" or "not a huge difference" has nothing to do with the point I am making.

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I view #3 and #4 as the same thing which would mean your line was crossed months ago... unless I'm just horribly mistaken about whats going on. Even then, personally, I don't see it as a problem.

#3 was buying an item that contained an RNG chance for a booster... #4 is buying the booster directly. I'm not the one who used the term "slippery slope", but I do think it applies here :) You are literally saying "we already have something almost as bad, so what's the big deal?"

If anything... this is an improvement, yeeeessss? Now we'll be able to get what we want instead of having to pay out multiple times before the RNG plays nice.

If someone spends as much as they can they'll get what, an extra legendary once every several weeks? Even if you were constantly getting a 100% boost you'd only get like one extra drop a week compared to me.

If Reddit is accurate, then the boosters almost double your rep gains once you get a chain of strikes or PvP matches happening.

Right. I wasn't sure so I assumed a costant 100% boost.

Most of the people I play with have their Vaults stuffed with Legendaries, is one more really going to matter?

I never, ever, said it was a big deal or that it was going to make a big difference to our day-to-day playtime. I feel like you're arguing with a point of view that I am not promoting.

All I've said this whole time is that the game now exists in a state where people who spend money on micro transactions get more end-game loot than those who don't. The fact that it is only "a tiny bit more" or "not a huge difference" has nothing to do with the point I am making.

Sure. And my apologies for not specifically acknowledging that. But, as a counter point, by itself, "people will be able to earn more end game content by spending some money" is not a positive or negative. Yes, you say its not a big deal, but your focus is firmly fixed on the glass that is half empty. What about people just starting out who would like to get to certain exotic quests more quickly? Or people who simply don't have much time to play? For them, maybe this is actually a positive?

We absolutely need to be aware of what's going on, and I'm glad we have people like you keeping closer track than I am, but the narrative (certainly not just from you) feels to me like it always leans towards the negative. Especially since there is a group of people that firmly believe any micro transactions whatsoever are flat out evil.

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We absolutely need to be aware of what's going on, and I'm glad we have people like you keeping closer track than I am, but the narrative (certainly not just from you) feels to me like it always leans towards the negative. Especially since there is a group of people that firmly believe any micro transactions whatsoever are flat out evil.

I think this goes back to the "slippery slope" issue that you mentioned earlier. Personally, I don't think microtransactions are inherently bad, but they certainly aren't inherently good. More to the point, when I look at "gaming" overall, I think microtransactions cause far more problems than good. There are certainly exceptions. But I do understand why some people have a knee-jerk reaction against Microtransactions, because they force us to think about the game in ways that we probably don't want to think about it. I know I don't like having that doubt in the back of my mind "would I be having a better time if I paid another $5?".

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Most of the people I play with have their Vaults stuffed with Legendaries, is one more really going to matter?

Now, odds aren't good that it will be. But it might.

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My high school basketball coach once asked our team a question during practice:

"If you run a play and it works, how many more times should you run the same play before you change things up?"

After a bunch of us yelled out arbitrary answers, he followed up:

"You run it until it doesn't work anymore. If you run the exact same play 100 times in a row and you score every time, why would you ever run another play? You run it until they stop you".

This lesson applies directly to the business world.

What play has Bungie run with their micro transactions so far? They keep "pushing the envelope" a tiny bit at a time. People complain, but not so much that it effects their player base. So they wait until we're all used to the current setup, then they push it a little further. It's worked every single time, so I see absolutely no reason for them to ever stop, unless they finally do hit that tipping point where players drop off.

You'd run that play over and over because you want to win right? But in games, I'd say 'winning' is making the best game in the universe, while making enough money off it to make another. So, you're not really gaining anything by creeping the line closer and closer to pay to win bullshit when it makes your game worse. Bungie built their reputation in the first place by making kick ass quality games.

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My high school basketball coach once asked our team a question during practice:

"If you run a play and it works, how many more times should you run the same play before you change things up?"

After a bunch of us yelled out arbitrary answers, he followed up:

"You run it until it doesn't work anymore. If you run the exact same play 100 times in a row and you score every time, why would you ever run another play? You run it until they stop you".

This lesson applies directly to the business world.

What play has Bungie run with their micro transactions so far? They keep "pushing the envelope" a tiny bit at a time. People complain, but not so much that it effects their player base. So they wait until we're all used to the current setup, then they push it a little further. It's worked every single time, so I see absolutely no reason for them to ever stop, unless they finally do hit that tipping point where players drop off.

You'd run that play over and over because you want to win right? But in games, I'd say 'winning' is making the best game in the universe, while making enough money off it to make another. So, you're not really gaining anything by creeping the line closer and closer to pay to win bullshit when it makes your game worse.

I suspect your version of "winning" doesn't exactly line up with Activision's share holders idea of "winning" ;)

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Why wouldn't they?

Because they are gamers too? Because they too have ethics? Because they care about their community? Because they're not all heartless greedy monsters?

Why is it that we must absolutely assume that the worst possible scenario will eventually come to pass? :(

Because Destiny's development is basically a story about Bungie trying to do the right thing, but getting in over their heads. It's a lot like Walter White in Breaking Bad. He didn't WANT to be a murdering drug lord, but each little choice made out of necessity took him there.

It's not so much malicious as it is just unfortunate.

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But regardless of how major or minor the difference is, the fact that there is any difference at all is problematic, and justifies concern for the future.

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which I actually agree with; if it's so insignificant, why include them? What's the design justification? Is it just to rip off a few people? That's nearly as bad, because it shows a lack of integrity in their business practice.

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which I actually agree with; if it's so insignificant, why include them? What's the design justification? Is it just to rip off a few people? That's nearly as bad, because it shows a lack of integrity in their business practice.

The idea with these types of items is not usually to get you in the mindset that you always need one, it's usually to get someone to spend the last of their premium currency. "I bought these emotes, but I have 100 silver left over, I think I'll just buy a booster."

And also, I'm absolutely not saying that I like these items being purchasable, and the best way to tell Bungie that is 1. Don't buy them. 2. Say so on forums/reddit/twitter/etc. However I don't think that this is some insidious plot by Bungie and/or Activision to slowly turn Destiny into a pay-to-win micro-transaction cash cow.

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Oh also, another reason I think they might have included them for sale: they probably found that a small percentage were buying sterling treasures for the boosters, so they included them separately for a much better price (3 for 100 silver).

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Well, one way of looking at it is things like rep boosters allow in game rewards beyond weapons and armor to have value to the player. They're something to look forward to, they a practical benefit that's different than just building up currency, and they can be used to help your friends which always feels nice.

I like getting them and using them to help others. If they were required to build rep at an acceptable pace then I'd be more critical, but rep builds quickly enough on its own that I see them as a nice minor bonus.

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My bad. I like them in the game too! I was just suggesting removing them from Eververse.

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At least according to this reddit post:

https://m.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/52wkbq/reputation_guide_for_leveling/

Edit: Though now that I look at it Im not sure that's all accurate. At least some of it seems to be though.

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At least according to this reddit post:

https://m.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/52wkbq/reputation_guide_for_leveling/

Edit: Though now that I look at it Im not sure that's all accurate. At least some of it seems to be though.

Getting ~100% more faction rep is a huge deal for those wanting the Exotic class items.

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Edit: This was apparently covered later.

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What I mean is that they've already gone too far--their current model already sucks, even if it's not technically pay to win. It's not about fairness, it's about a shitty business model for your consumers, which I think this is.

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What I mean is that they've already gone too far--their current model already sucks, even if it's not technically pay to win. It's not about fairness, it's about a shitty business model for your consumers, which I think this is.

That's cool, that's absolutely fair to feel that way. I don't know how an item that doesn't affect your gameplay at all is a shitty business model (heck I rank this as less of an issue than the "extended warranties" Best Buy and Walmart try and get you to buy), but it's absolutely fair to feel that way. My main issue is really with the slippery slope fallacies that people are throwing around.

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So where was that line of thinking for the PS exclusives until 2017? Those are just words. I think it's highly probable it will go pay to win or at least into the realm of scumminess at some point.

He directly mentions exclusives in the article, it's an agreement made with the publishers. I'm pretty sure I know though what happened with the PS exclusives by the way. The agreement most likely said that the exclusives would be that way until Destiny 2, but then, as we know, Destiny 2 got pushed back until next year. So when they originally stated until at least Fall 2016, that was based on the original timeline, but the agreement with Sony didn't have a date, but an event listed.

I'm not expecting them to go true pay to win unless Activision strong arms them into it.

I'm not a fan of the PS exclusives. but i was just thinking the other day, after playing ReCore on my PC, that it would be awesome if MS could throw enough money at Activision to allow Destiny 2 to be an "Xbox Anywhere" title. Would make it so much easier for me to play while on business trips. Packing a laptop is easier than packing an xbox.

I'm not saying that i want Destiny 2 to be an Xbox exclusive, but would love for it to be cross-compatible with PC. PC players may have a crucible advantage though, so they may just have to split up the populations like they did with the 360/Xbone. would still be nice though to have on PC

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That's nice to hear, and it doesn't really surprise me. My fear is "executives/publishers" don't really care and will force it. It wouldn't be the first time it's happened in Destiny. And as we know, if a dev takes a stand against "the man," they're out.

For now, I don't see this being a real problem. Just another tiny step towards the line. Still, I think that those of us who are worried about it will keep bringing it up because we care about the integrity of the game.

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IGN has a short article about PS exclusives and pay to win. Here's the excerpt on pay to win:

"We certainly have a goal of never being pay to win," said Barrett. "That’s part of the goal of Destiny. We’ve set that bar for ourselves. It’s really just a lot of feedback from internally at Bungie, and we’re always thinking, 'Hey, is that going too far into that territory?' Generally, we all go back to not even getting close."
Derek Carroll, PvP Lead for the live team, said that playing the game themselves helps the developers when deciding what to do with the game.
"When we’re proposing these things, the whole studio is like, 'I know how that would affect me,'" he said. "You’re able to really clearly put yourself in the players' shoes, and go, 'I would be really mad if you did that.' We try not to do things that would make us mad. And we assume other people have the same bar."

I should say up front, just for the record, I'm not all worked up about this. I don't think it's a big deal. It's just... gross. On to my point:

I totally believe Barrett when he says that Bungie themselves play this game like crazy, and they're very sensitive how this stuff effects the players because they themselves are players, etc etc. And yet... it's still in the game. Even though many people at Bungie are also Destiny players and fans, we all know for a fact that there are outside pressures at work (Activision, for example).

Let's set aside the "pay to win" argument and just say what this is: players who pay extra money can now get more loot drops than players who don't. Some people may think this is a huge deal, others might think it doesn't matter at all, but the fact remains that players who spend extra money on microtransactions are now getting more game-effecting content than those who don't. A line has been crossed.

At the moment, the line has been crossed in a relatively minor way. But that could change very quickly. All it would take is for Bungie to add a "must have" weapon to the vanguard or crucible reward loot tables. As I mentioned in an earlier comment, the rep packages already contain items that cannot be obtained any other way... imagine if one of those items became the next Gjallarhorn. All of a sudden, the community at large would have much more of an incentive to buy as many boosters as they can and grind rep as quickly as possible.

This is exactly the kind of stuff that has shifted the way I feel about Bungie over the past couple years. I still like them, but I can't say I trust them anymore.

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So I was chatting with a developer that worked on Destiny and they had this to say (not verbatim):

"When we made Halo games Microsoft owned the IP, but we acted like we did. When we finally owned our own IP (Destiny) we let Activision tell us what to do, like they owned it."

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"When we made Halo games Microsoft owned the IP, but we acted like we did. When we finally owned our own IP (Destiny) we let Activision tell us what to do, like they owned it."

Sounds familiar.

This is also why I make my predictions thus.

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I wanted to say something about Activision, because this is a big part of what colors my entire point of view on this subject.

I know it is easy for us to roll our eyes any time someone on the internet starts yelling "blame Activision! They're evil! Every problem with the game is their fault" etc. I don't want to come off as "that guy".

But I sort of am that guy... just with a little more nuance ;)

Let me first say that there are many talented, creative, hard working people within Activision who care deeply about making great games. No question about it. But the question we need to keep in mind is: "Who signs their paychecks?".

Activision is a public company. They answer to their shareholders. In most cases, public shareholders are not known for being a patient or forward-thinking group. They demand growth, year after year. If there is no growth, there is a risk of panic, and that can be disastrous for a company the size of Activision.

We don't need to think about theoretical company behavior, here. Activision has proven, time and time again, that they like to take their fastest horse and ride it as hard as they can until it gets driven into the dirt. They've done it with every franchise in their catalog. CoD is still standing, but it took some serious blows over the past few years (to the point where Activision restructured the developer rotation for the series).

Now Destiny is a bit of a different animal, because Bungie owns the IP and Bungie perhaps has enough clout as a studio to talk back to Activision without fear of being dropped and replaced. But at the end of the day, Activision is the one writing the checks to Bungie, which means Activision's concerns are Bungie's concerns. Maybe not everyone at Bungie, but there are certainly people within the studio who care very much about keeping Activision happy, because a happy and stable relationship means everyone gets to paid.

So when say things like "of course Bungie is going to keep trying to find ways to get more money out of Destiny players", I'm not saying that the hard-working people at Bungie are unethical, or that they don't care about their community. I'm simply recognizing the reality of the situation. Bungie MUST continue to find new ways to monetize Destiny because Activision wants them to because their shareholders demand it. We can't ignore the roll of outside influences here. If CoD or Guitar Hero have disappointing sales one year (hint, they BOTH had disappointing sales last year), guess who's job it is to pick up that slack? This is how publishers operate. The 2013 Tomb Raider was considered a "failure", despite glowing reviews and sales of 2-3 million, because the publisher's other games that year had all failed to sell, and so they expected Tomb Raider to make up the difference. Anyone who thinks Bungie/Destiny isn't similarly effected by publisher pressures isn't seeing the whole picture.

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"When we made Halo games Microsoft owned the IP, but we acted like we did. When we finally owned our own IP (Destiny) we let Activision tell us what to do, like they owned it."

The difference is here that at the end of the day, Bungie has the nuclear option. They can, pending the completion of game/expansion subcontracts, simply stop making Destiny games for Activision. Right now this isn't as much of a threat, since Bungie is only 3 years into a 10 year exclusivity publishing contract, and would have to try to create a new IP to work on if they were to split from Activision. However, this option becomes much more powerful once they start getting towards 7ish years in, when contract renewal negotiations begin to develop. If Destiny is still going strong at that point, it's unlikely that Activision would want to lose it to a competitor, and Bungie would have a very strong position at the negotiating table.

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"When we made Halo games Microsoft owned the IP, but we acted like we did. When we finally owned our own IP (Destiny) we let Activision tell us what to do, like they owned it."

The difference is here that at the end of the day, Bungie has the nuclear option. They can, pending the completion of game/expansion subcontracts, simply stop making Destiny games for Activision. Right now this isn't as much of a threat, since Bungie is only 3 years into a 10 year exclusivity publishing contract, and would have to try to create a new IP to work on if they were to split from Activision. However, this option becomes much more powerful once they start getting towards 7ish years in, when contract renewal negotiations begin to develop. If Destiny is still going strong at that point, it's unlikely that Activision would want to lose it to a competitor, and Bungie would have a very strong position at the negotiating table.

Sure, but that's a long way off, with many years of Bungie needing to please Activision. And let's be clear--the fact that microtransactions are in the game at all is an indication that Bungie is completely okay with them. Otherwise they wouldn't be there, and Bungie wouldn't have agreed to a contract that lets Activision force them in (if that's what's happening). At the end of the day, this is Bungie's IP, and Bungie is in control (by nature of not having to have signed a contract they didn't like). Putting this all on Activision is a little disingenuous, in my opinion.

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And putting it entirely on Bungie like you just did isn't? Its one sided absolutists views like the one you just stated that infuriate me about the whole micro transaction debate. :(

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Ultimately, it is entirely on Bungie. It's their IP. They signed the contract. Sure, they may have compromised in order to get it made at all, but that's ultimately still their decision. I don't see how that's even a debate.

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Ultimately, it is entirely on Bungie. It's their IP. They signed the contract. Sure, they may have compromised in order to get it made at all, but that's ultimately still their decision. I don't see how that's even a debate.

The idea that micro transactions being in the game at all is "...an indication that Bungie is completely okay with them" isn't a debate. It's you stubbornly simplifying a complex world down to childish black and white absolutism. You've gone way the heck beyond being a little disingenuous now. :(

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Ultimately, it is entirely on Bungie. It's their IP. They signed the contract. Sure, they may have compromised in order to get it made at all, but that's ultimately still their decision. I don't see how that's even a debate.

The idea that micro transactions being in the game at all is "...an indication that Bungie is completely okay with them" isn't a debate. It's you stubbornly simplifying a complex world down to childish black and white absolutism. You've gone way the heck beyond being a little disingenuous now. :(

They're completely ok with them in the only ways that really matter.

Better?

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"When we made Halo games Microsoft owned the IP, but we acted like we did. When we finally owned our own IP (Destiny) we let Activision tell us what to do, like they owned it."

The difference is here that at the end of the day, Bungie has the nuclear option. They can, pending the completion of game/expansion subcontracts, simply stop making Destiny games for Activision. Right now this isn't as much of a threat, since Bungie is only 3 years into a 10 year exclusivity publishing contract, and would have to try to create a new IP to work on if they were to split from Activision. However, this option becomes much more powerful once they start getting towards 7ish years in, when contract renewal negotiations begin to develop. If Destiny is still going strong at that point, it's unlikely that Activision would want to lose it to a competitor, and Bungie would have a very strong position at the negotiating table.

They would have to scale their games back considerably. Remember, they went with activision in the first place because there were really only a five publishers even capable of giving them the resources they needed for Destiny, and only two that they'd feel good about working with. Ditching Activision would de facto mean going to MS, and MS knows this.

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My preference is to not get carried away with this kind of conclusion-drawing and to try as much as possible to let the game succeed or fail on its own merits. If there’s something rotten in Denmark, exports from Denmark begin to stink. We can sniff the air and be sensitive that, sure, but if we don’t live in Denmark, there’s a limit to what we can say is happening there.

About the quote, I would not be surprised if I guessed who made this statement in three tries or less. I’m saddened to see it shared in this way here. Yes, it’s cool when we the fans get access to devs or former devs and we get to hear these points of view. That window for that continuing to happening closes a bit every time we repeat things out of context. Don’t get me wrong: if a former or current Bungie employee wants to criticize Bungie, that’s absolutely his or her right. If a journalist wants to report on this, that’s a good thing, too, but fairness and objectivity is integral to good journalism. I value balance.

Let us speculate, let us criticize microtransactions or whatever else bugs us, let us state our hopes and fears for Bungie and Destiny, but let’s not pretend that we know the big picture (that’s the problem with this quote like this: it give us false confidence in our opinions). Cody might get closer to giving us the big picture with this book project, if he talks to enough people and stays honest. It’s not like I don’t personally share many of the concerns shared in this thread. This quote, however, is only a perfect summation of one person’s opinion. A person with biases just like the rest of us and a point of view informed by a bad experience.

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My preference is to not get carried away with this kind of conclusion-drawing and to try as much as possible to let the game succeed or fail on its own merits. If there’s something rotten in Denmark, exports from Denmark begin to stink. We can sniff the air and be sensitive that, sure, but if we don’t live in Denmark, there’s a limit to what we can say is happening there.

About the quote, I would not be surprised if I guessed who made this statement in three tries or less. I’m saddened to see it shared in this way here. Yes, it’s cool when we the fans get access to devs or former devs and we get to hear these points of view. That window for that continuing to happening closes a bit every time we repeat things out of context. Don’t get me wrong: if a former or current Bungie employee wants to criticize Bungie, that’s absolutely his or her right. If a journalist wants to report on this, that’s a good thing, too, but fairness and objectivity is integral to good journalism. I value balance.

Let us speculate, let us criticize microtransactions or whatever else bugs us, let us state our hopes and fears for Bungie and Destiny, but let’s not pretend that we know the big picture (that’s the problem with this quote like this: it give us false confidence in our opinions). Cody might get closer to giving us the big picture with this book project, if he talks to enough people and stays honest. It’s not like I don’t personally share many of the concerns shared in this thread. This quote, however, is only a perfect summation of one person’s opinion. A person with biases just like the rest of us and a point of view informed by a bad experience.

The reason quotes like this gain so much traction is that game development is treated with such absolute secrecy that any little grain of insight that comes "from inside" is held up on a pedestal as some form of gospel. As you pointed out, this quote is just 1 person's [scare-quotes]valid opinion[/scare quotes], and it gains weight due to the complete lack of any other valid opinions coming from inside Bungie.

I'm not saying that is a good or bad thing (that's an entirely different discussion, I think). I just think it is a predictable price to pay for the gaming industry's level of secrecy.

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My preference is to not get carried away with this kind of conclusion-drawing and to try as much as possible to let the game succeed or fail on its own merits. If there’s something rotten in Denmark, exports from Denmark begin to stink. We can sniff the air and be sensitive that, sure, but if we don’t live in Denmark, there’s a limit to what we can say is happening there.

About the quote, I would not be surprised if I guessed who made this statement in three tries or less. I’m saddened to see it shared in this way here. Yes, it’s cool when we the fans get access to devs or former devs and we get to hear these points of view. That window for that continuing to happening closes a bit every time we repeat things out of context. Don’t get me wrong: if a former or current Bungie employee wants to criticize Bungie, that’s absolutely his or her right. If a journalist wants to report on this, that’s a good thing, too, but fairness and objectivity is integral to good journalism. I value balance.

Let us speculate, let us criticize microtransactions or whatever else bugs us, let us state our hopes and fears for Bungie and Destiny, but let’s not pretend that we know the big picture (that’s the problem with this quote like this: it give us false confidence in our opinions). Cody might get closer to giving us the big picture with this book project, if he talks to enough people and stays honest. It’s not like I don’t personally share many of the concerns shared in this thread. This quote, however, is only a perfect summation of one person’s opinion. A person with biases just like the rest of us and a point of view informed by a bad experience.

The reason quotes like this gain so much traction is that game development is treated with such absolute secrecy that any little grain of insight that comes "from inside" is held up on a pedestal as some form of gospel. As you pointed out, this quote is just 1 person's [scare-quotes]valid opinion[/scare quotes], and it gains weight due to the complete lack of any other valid opinions coming from inside Bungie.

I'm not saying that is a good or bad thing (that's an entirely different discussion, I think). I just think it is a predictable price to pay for the gaming industry's level of secrecy.

Don't disagree. I do think it's arguable on which side the problem is, the secrecy or the reactionary culture.

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My preference is to not get carried away with this kind of conclusion-drawing and to try as much as possible to let the game succeed or fail on its own merits. If there’s something rotten in Denmark, exports from Denmark begin to stink. We can sniff the air and be sensitive that, sure, but if we don’t live in Denmark, there’s a limit to what we can say is happening there.

About the quote, I would not be surprised if I guessed who made this statement in three tries or less. I’m saddened to see it shared in this way here. Yes, it’s cool when we the fans get access to devs or former devs and we get to hear these points of view. That window for that continuing to happening closes a bit every time we repeat things out of context. Don’t get me wrong: if a former or current Bungie employee wants to criticize Bungie, that’s absolutely his or her right. If a journalist wants to report on this, that’s a good thing, too, but fairness and objectivity is integral to good journalism. I value balance.

Let us speculate, let us criticize microtransactions or whatever else bugs us, let us state our hopes and fears for Bungie and Destiny, but let’s not pretend that we know the big picture (that’s the problem with this quote like this: it give us false confidence in our opinions). Cody might get closer to giving us the big picture with this book project, if he talks to enough people and stays honest. It’s not like I don’t personally share many of the concerns shared in this thread. This quote, however, is only a perfect summation of one person’s opinion. A person with biases just like the rest of us and a point of view informed by a bad experience.

The reason quotes like this gain so much traction is that game development is treated with such absolute secrecy that any little grain of insight that comes "from inside" is held up on a pedestal as some form of gospel. As you pointed out, this quote is just 1 person's [scare-quotes]valid opinion[/scare quotes], and it gains weight due to the complete lack of any other valid opinions coming from inside Bungie.

I'm not saying that is a good or bad thing (that's an entirely different discussion, I think). I just think it is a predictable price to pay for the gaming industry's level of secrecy.

Don't disagree. I do think it's arguable on which side the problem is, the secrecy or the reactionary culture.

But the resonance of that quote is extraordinary. It just makes sense of so much.

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My preference is to not get carried away with this kind of conclusion-drawing and to try as much as possible to let the game succeed or fail on its own merits. If there’s something rotten in Denmark, exports from Denmark begin to stink. We can sniff the air and be sensitive that, sure, but if we don’t live in Denmark, there’s a limit to what we can say is happening there.

About the quote, I would not be surprised if I guessed who made this statement in three tries or less. I’m saddened to see it shared in this way here. Yes, it’s cool when we the fans get access to devs or former devs and we get to hear these points of view. That window for that continuing to happening closes a bit every time we repeat things out of context. Don’t get me wrong: if a former or current Bungie employee wants to criticize Bungie, that’s absolutely his or her right. If a journalist wants to report on this, that’s a good thing, too, but fairness and objectivity is integral to good journalism. I value balance.

Let us speculate, let us criticize microtransactions or whatever else bugs us, let us state our hopes and fears for Bungie and Destiny, but let’s not pretend that we know the big picture (that’s the problem with this quote like this: it give us false confidence in our opinions). Cody might get closer to giving us the big picture with this book project, if he talks to enough people and stays honest. It’s not like I don’t personally share many of the concerns shared in this thread. This quote, however, is only a perfect summation of one person’s opinion. A person with biases just like the rest of us and a point of view informed by a bad experience.

The reason quotes like this gain so much traction is that game development is treated with such absolute secrecy that any little grain of insight that comes "from inside" is held up on a pedestal as some form of gospel. As you pointed out, this quote is just 1 person's [scare-quotes]valid opinion[/scare quotes], and it gains weight due to the complete lack of any other valid opinions coming from inside Bungie.

I'm not saying that is a good or bad thing (that's an entirely different discussion, I think). I just think it is a predictable price to pay for the gaming industry's level of secrecy.

Don't disagree. I do think it's arguable on which side the problem is, the secrecy or the reactionary culture.

But the resonance of that quote is extraordinary. It just makes sense of so much.

That's the trouble. All these lightning storms make so much sense once we realize Zeus must be angry.

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Or, to roll with your analogy, they're just part of normal weather patterns. Haha.

Hmm.

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Or it's even more complicated, and the normal weather patterns happened to roll into Zeus's wrath.

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Don't disagree. I do think it's arguable on which side the problem is, the secrecy or the reactionary culture.

What is wrong with secrecy? As long as the game comes out fine, it doesn't matter does it? But I don't think Destiny came out fine.

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Don't disagree. I do think it's arguable on which side the problem is, the secrecy or the reactionary culture.

What is wrong with secrecy? As long as the game comes out fine, it doesn't matter does it? But I don't think Destiny came out fine.

Nothing from my perspective in this context. I like when people or organizations underpromise and overdeliver.

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Don't disagree. I do think it's arguable on which side the problem is, the secrecy or the reactionary culture.

What is wrong with secrecy? As long as the game comes out fine, it doesn't matter does it? But I don't think Destiny came out fine.

Nothing from my perspective in this context. I like when people or organizations underpromise and overdeliver.

I think the "problem" with secrecy (more scare quotes here), is when gamers/customers feel like they are being misled. Case in point: No Man's Sky. I enjoyed the game, but there is no question that the promotion of the game and communication from the developers prior to release was horribly handled. Again, when so little is known about the development of a game, every little glimmer of info we do get is taken as gospel. Personally, I am absolutely aware that development is a flaming train wreck right up until launch, and anything and everything can change. But I do also think it is fair to say "That's fine... if you talk about a feature, and then things change and the feature gets cut, we understand. Just TELL US". Otherwise, it comes across as lying just to trick people into buying a product.

No Man's Sky is a particularly bold example. I don't think Bungie has made any mistakes on that level. But there have been bumps in the road over the past couple years with regards to communication with the community. I think Bungie realizes this, and they seem to be making real efforts to improve. It is a very challenging task; figuring out which information needs to be provided, and what needs to stay secret.

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Don't disagree. I do think it's arguable on which side the problem is, the secrecy or the reactionary culture.

What is wrong with secrecy? As long as the game comes out fine, it doesn't matter does it? But I don't think Destiny came out fine.

Nothing from my perspective in this context. I like when people or organizations underpromise and overdeliver.

I think the "problem" with secrecy (more scare quotes here), is when gamers/customers feel like they are being misled. Case in point: No Man's Sky. I enjoyed the game, but there is no question that the promotion of the game and communication from the developers prior to release was horribly handled. Again, when so little is known about the development of a game, every little glimmer of info we do get is taken as gospel. Personally, I am absolutely aware that development is a flaming train wreck right up until launch, and anything and everything can change. But I do also think it is fair to say "That's fine... if you talk about a feature, and then things change and the feature gets cut, we understand. Just TELL US". Otherwise, it comes across as lying just to trick people into buying a product.

No Man's Sky is a particularly bold example. I don't think Bungie has made any mistakes on that level. But there have been bumps in the road over the past couple years with regards to communication with the community. I think Bungie realizes this, and they seem to be making real efforts to improve. It is a very challenging task; figuring out which information needs to be provided, and what needs to stay secret.

I agree that it's a tough balancing act. Gaming has become so competitive and high-stakes that any kind of walkback can be spun as a betrayal and that spin can take over the narrative (and cost mucho delores). It's one thing when it's just us chickens and Matt talking about character designs in BLAM! in the weekly update. It's another when Forbes is writing articles based on fan's post on NeoGAF.

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Cody might get closer to giving us the big picture with this book project, if he talks to enough people and stays honest.

The book is not an exposè of Bungie's dirty laundry. As such, I don't even know how much I'm going to even do beyond Halo. I'm asking about Destiny, but am almost 100% certain I won't use a big part of what I've been told and what I know.

Don't go around saying or thinking the book is about that. Because it's not.

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Cody might get closer to giving us the big picture with this book project, if he talks to enough people and stays honest.

The book is not an exposè of Bungie's dirty laundry. As such, I don't even know how much I'm going to even do beyond Halo. I'm asking about Destiny, but am almost 100% certain I won't use a big part of what I've been told and what I know.

Don't go around saying or thinking the book is about that. Because it's not.

That's cool. I didn't mean to imply that it's an exposè--quite the opposite. Glad to hear you not characterize it that way, though.

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am almost 100% certain I won't use a big part of what I've been told and what I know.

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Seems a bit unfair to ding Bungie for things that might happen. Activision might force Destiny to go to monthly subscription fees. Rep boosters might someday change to rep transmitters only available from Eververse that have to be active to gain rep at all.

Is there any possibility whatsoever that things might get better? Has Bungie ever improved the experience of leveling / decrypting / infusing / earning rep?

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Seems a bit unfair to ding Bungie for things that might happen. Activision might force Destiny to go to monthly subscription fees. Rep boosters might someday change to rep transmitters only available from Eververse that have to be active to gain rep at all.

Is there any possibility whatsoever that things might get better? Has Bungie ever improved the experience of leveling / decrypting / infusing / earning rep?

I was referring more specifically to the fact that they might add new weapons into the loot tables for these rep packages, or that a weapon rebalance might make one of the current drops more desirable than they currently are. Both seem like fair possibilities to me.

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Seems a bit unfair to ding Bungie for things that might happen. Activision might force Destiny to go to monthly subscription fees.

i doubt MS would allow this on Xbox Live

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This thread is like backwards land for me. I'm absolutely against microtransactions and have thrown down with a bunch of people over player/consumer-hostile stuff in Destiny going back years. And yet here I am finding myself agreeing with Xenos and you and some others while disagreeing with others I tend to be siding with in these debates.

I would mostly just say that the slippery slope argument is turning out to be a fallacy because, at least in this thread, people are applying the slippery slope to the wrong thing. I don't see this going pay to win, and I don't think Bungie is actively against us. Activision on the other hand...

I seriously think it goes the more player-hostile routes of pay-not-to-play due to purposely bullshit game design to try to get you to spend money. Or deeper into the casino/addiction mentality that I feel Destiny has already been going down by potentially adding more lucrative or "rare" items (that won't lead to pay to win) to try to get people to RNG gamble away at getting them. That sucks and I'm totally against it, and it's already happening and will probably continue to go down that slippery slope to hell. I wonder if cool features will start getting paywalled.

Either way, we're in agreement for now! But at the end of the day, I have a nasty feeling that Activision is going to continue to assert a nasty influence on Bungie. And eventually, Bungie may just cave completely or lose all the people who refuse. I hope it doesn't come to that, but we'll see.

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I seriously think it goes the more player-hostile routes of pay-not-to-play due to purposely bullshit game design to try to get you to spend money.

Just remember who was the first here to point this out. :-D

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Apropos of nothing:

I'm still bitter about that no-scope betrayal on Valhalla.

;)

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I'm still bitter about that Spartan Laser shot you barely managed to duck under on Valhalla. :P

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I'm still bitter about that Spartan Laser shot you barely managed to duck under on Valhalla. :P

Not the last second targeting of you on your Mongoose and blasting you out of the sky? ;)

Takeaway from this threadjack: Valhalla was amazeballs.

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I'm still bitter about that Spartan Laser shot you barely managed to duck under on Valhalla. :P

Not the last second targeting of you on your Mongoose and blasting you out of the sky? ;)

That was more a sight to behold than to be bitter at! Haha.

Takeaway from this threadjack: Valhalla was amazeballs.

For real. What a great map.

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