Because the ARG has me absolutely riveted.

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Because the ARG has me absolutely riveted.

So did hunt the truth, and see what that got us :-p

The ZAV/IR/CY6 transcripts are great, as they're essentially more of what we got in the TTK cutscenes, which were awesome. Cayde's levity is a spark of light in an otherwise overwhelmingly dower narrative.

The rest is way too mopey for my tastes, and would be way more effective if it wasn't contradicted by what we see in-game (the mites are supposed to be VERY HARMFUL towards non-guardians, but the civvies in the tower don't seem to mind one bit).

Also, writing pet-peeve: attempting to guilt-trip the reader/player (in the first person) by accusing them of having done something horrific, when the actions were A) performed beforehand and B) obviously not something we would have done if we had been in the shoes of the accusee.

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But it isn't an ARG.

Also, don't hold your breath. The writing in the Grimoire is a thousand years beyond what's in-game. That includes some of this marketing stunt for the expansion. I have very low hopes for their in-game writing for what's left of this game. I'm praying they get their writing on point for Destiny 2 and its expansions. We're in dire need of it.

The Devs play this game, and are looking at the ARG too. I would imagine the good writing there influences things, even if indirectly.

Remember it took an outside company completely rewriting all the canon to kill Halo's story in 4 and 5, and even then we still had some very good scenes with Cortana in 4.

Destiny is the opposite, the game is a void and the backup material is nearly all good. The only way for the game to go is up.

But it isn't an ARG.

Also, don't hold your breath. The writing in the Grimoire is a thousand years beyond what's in-game. That includes some of this marketing stunt for the expansion. I have very low hopes for their in-game writing for what's left of this game. I'm praying they get their writing on point for Destiny 2 and its expansions. We're in dire need of it.

It's fine to have high hopes for this expansion, isn't it? I believe the in-game writing has gotten better with each expansion. I'm aware that what i post here can come across as over-the-top cheerleading, but your post reads like over-the-top skepticism.

You are talking about two different things entirely. Bungie has problems with visual storytelling. The only realistic hope for a better story is if they change direction completely in Des2ny, which also means changing the genre.

But it isn't an ARG.

Also, don't hold your breath. The writing in the Grimoire is a thousand years beyond what's in-game. That includes some of this marketing stunt for the expansion. I have very low hopes for their in-game writing for what's left of this game. I'm praying they get their writing on point for Destiny 2 and its expansions. We're in dire need of it.

It's fine to have high hopes for this expansion, isn't it? I believe the in-game writing has gotten better with each expansion. I'm aware that what i post here can come across as over-the-top cheerleading, but your post reads like over-the-top skepticism.

Expectations should be realistic for this expansion. I think it's reasonable to expect it to be on par with HoW. Maybe a little better since this has a raid, but in terms of story we aren't getting very much. Another TTK would be great, but that's not what we are getting.

But it isn't an ARG.

Also, don't hold your breath. The writing in the Grimoire is a thousand years beyond what's in-game. That includes some of this marketing stunt for the expansion. I have very low hopes for their in-game writing for what's left of this game. I'm praying they get their writing on point for Destiny 2 and its expansions. We're in dire need of it.

It's fine to have high hopes for this expansion, isn't it? I believe the in-game writing has gotten better with each expansion. I'm aware that what i post here can come across as over-the-top cheerleading, but your post reads like over-the-top skepticism.

Expectations should be realistic for this expansion. I think it's reasonable to expect it to be on par with HoW. Maybe a little better since this has a raid, but in terms of story we aren't getting very much. Another TTK would be great, but that's not what we are getting.

What does the inclusion of a raid have to do with the quality of the writing or storytelling? You seem to be talking about the size of the expansion, but that's not what I'm talking about.

It's fine to have high hopes for this expansion, isn't it? I believe the in-game writing has gotten better with each expansion. I'm aware that what i post here can come across as over-the-top cheerleading, but your post reads like over-the-top skepticism.

I'm not saying others can't have high hopes for it as far as writing goes, but I think people are getting suckered by this viral marketing campaign of Bungie's. People think it's an ARG and it isn't. People are scouring in-game to find stuff that isn't there. It's literally just a buff and colors floating around your head. That's it. The story bits taking part on B.net would probably be showing up regardless of who or what are getting infected or when. It's all for that final lead up to the launch and to create hype.

So, it is over-the-top skepticism on my part. I have very low expectations on their writing ability for this expansion. I've had two years worth of letdowns with Bungie's storytelling to inform how I'm viewing this. Taken King was a step in the right direction, and that step barely went very far. To be continued in, you guessed it, Destiny 2. If anything, this leaves me room to be pleasantly surprised instead of let down yet again with Rise of Iron, but who knows. I'm not holding my breath on story until Destiny 2.

Edit: And I have to personally disagree on the in-game writing getting better with each expansion. I'll give you Taken King, but nothing prior.

The Devs play this game, and are looking at the ARG too. I would imagine the good writing there influences things, even if indirectly.

This is not an ARG. Bungie already did an actual ARG for Destiny pre-launch known as Alpha Lupi. It was good fun, very involved, and was pretty well done. And guess what? That writing translated nowhere into the game itself because Destiny the game itself had no story.

Remember it took an outside company completely rewriting all the canon to kill Halo's story in 4 and 5, and even then we still had some very good scenes with Cortana in 4.

Agreed on the first part (though Bungie absolutely dropped the ball on a lot of the writing with Reach, so it's not like they were totally perfect in comparison to 343), and I'll have to agree to disagree on the second part about Cortana in 4.

Destiny is the opposite, the game is a void and the backup material is nearly all good. The only way for the game to go is up.

When the bar is literally sitting on the ground and then gets raised up a foot or two by Taken King, yeah, I'd agree the only way left to go is up. I don't see the bar going back down with Rise of Iron, but I definitely don't see it going beyond another 6-12" with it. Destiny 2 is where the story's gotta be done properly and with effort going forward. This expansion should hopefully just provide a bit more exposition and context to the world we're playing in so that it can all finally maybe coalesce in Destiny 2 and create something as grand and epic as the Grimoire has shown is potentially capable.

It's fine to have high hopes for this expansion, isn't it? I believe the in-game writing has gotten better with each expansion. I'm aware that what i post here can come across as over-the-top cheerleading, but your post reads like over-the-top skepticism.

I'm not saying others can't have high hopes for it as far as writing goes, but I think people are getting suckered by this viral marketing campaign of Bungie's. People think it's an ARG and it isn't. People are scouring in-game to find stuff that isn't there. It's literally just a buff and colors floating around your head. That's it. The story bits taking part on B.net would probably be showing up regardless of who or what are getting infected or when. It's all for that final lead up to the launch and to create hype.

So, it is over-the-top skepticism on my part. I have very low expectations on their writing ability for this expansion. I've had two years worth of letdowns with Bungie's storytelling to inform how I'm viewing this. Taken King was a step in the right direction, and that step barely went very far. To be continued in, you guessed it, Destiny 2. If anything, this leaves me room to be pleasantly surprised instead of let down yet again with Rise of Iron, but who knows. I'm not holding my breath on story until Destiny 2.

I don't know why you're so offended by people misnaming this an ARG or why you feel that anyone who likes it is "getting suckered." I don't know how you could know so much about how it ties into an expansion that hasn't been released yet, but whatever.

Something about normal weather patterns merging with Zeus's wrath.

The Devs play this game, and are looking at the ARG too. I would imagine the good writing there influences things, even if indirectly.

This is not an ARG. Bungie already did an actual ARG for Destiny pre-launch known as Alpha Lupi. It was good fun, very involved, and was pretty well done. And guess what? That writing translated nowhere into the game itself because Destiny the game itself had no story.

Remember it took an outside company completely rewriting all the canon to kill Halo's story in 4 and 5, and even then we still had some very good scenes with Cortana in 4.

Agreed on the first part (though Bungie absolutely dropped the ball on a lot of the writing with Reach, so it's not like they were totally perfect in comparison to 343), and I'll have to agree to disagree on the second part about Cortana in 4.

Destiny is the opposite, the game is a void and the backup material is nearly all good. The only way for the game to go is up.

When the bar is literally sitting on the ground and then gets raised up a foot or two by Taken King, yeah, I'd agree the only way left to go is up. I don't see the bar going back down with Rise of Iron, but I definitely don't see it going beyond another 6-12" with it. Destiny 2 is where the story's gotta be done properly and with effort going forward. This expansion should hopefully just provide a bit more exposition and context to the world we're playing in so that it can all finally maybe coalesce in Destiny 2 and create something as grand and epic as the Grimoire has shown is potentially capable.

The story in the game will never live up the Grimoire. It will never be as evocative because it's an in-game story and not words on a page. The in-game story and the grimoire can together become something truly fantastic but the Grimoire by its nature will have certain advantages. In-game storytelling has other advantages when done well, but that is harder to pull off. Again, I don't understand why waiting for Destiny 2 is necessary to get the latter.

But it isn't an ARG.

Also, don't hold your breath. The writing in the Grimoire is a thousand years beyond what's in-game. That includes some of this marketing stunt for the expansion. I have very low hopes for their in-game writing for what's left of this game. I'm praying they get their writing on point for Destiny 2 and its expansions. We're in dire need of it.

It's fine to have high hopes for this expansion, isn't it? I believe the in-game writing has gotten better with each expansion. I'm aware that what i post here can come across as over-the-top cheerleading, but your post reads like over-the-top skepticism.

Expectations should be realistic for this expansion. I think it's reasonable to expect it to be on par with HoW. Maybe a little better since this has a raid, but in terms of story we aren't getting very much. Another TTK would be great, but that's not what we are getting.

What does the inclusion of a raid have to do with the quality of the writing or storytelling? You seem to be talking about the size of the expansion, but that's not what I'm talking about.

The past two raids have had story lead ups.

I already know that. You're making the argument that I've made for years here to me right now. This reply chain stems from a hope of in-game story maybe being great for this expansion because of how the text-based marketing, a mini-Grimoire of sorts, is portraying the lead-up to this expansion. I have been making the argument for years, most notably to Ragashingo, that the Grimoire is backstory and does not at all reflect upon or translate to in-game storytelling or writing. So I guess thanks for reaffirming all of that for me?

And their writing and storytelling with these expansions has continued to leave one wanting. This expansion's story is going to continue to be an attempt to create some sort of foothold for some sort of in-game universe story since Destiny has largely not had one. That doesn't mean it won't have a story or that it might not be good (I personally don't have high hopes), but if you think an expansion is going to provide the in-game story and plot that two years of this thing has failed to provide, it's not going to happen. Destiny 2 is where it's at. And my hope is that the bits of story they've managed to drop with Taken King and Rise of Iron will finally coalesce into whatever broad vision they have for the Destiny in-game universe as a whole going forward. And they won't be able to realize that merging and progression until the sequel.

So, it is over-the-top skepticism on my part. I have very low expectations on their writing ability for this expansion. I've had two years worth of letdowns with Bungie's storytelling to inform how I'm viewing this.

'Member when Bungie's stories were what set its games apart from everything else at the time? Yeahhhhhhh I member that.....

I already know that. You're making the argument that I've made for years here to me right now. This reply chain stems from a hope of in-game story maybe being great for this expansion because of how the text-based marketing, a mini-Grimoire of sorts, is portraying the lead-up to this expansion. I have been making the argument for years, most notably to Ragashingo, that the Grimoire is backstory and does not at all reflect upon or translate to in-game storytelling or writing. So I guess thanks for reaffirming all of that for me?

And their writing and storytelling with these expansions has continued to leave one wanting. This expansion's story is going to continue to be an attempt to create some sort of foothold for some sort of in-game universe story since Destiny has largely not had one. That doesn't mean it won't have a story or that it might not be good (I personally don't have high hopes), but if you think an expansion is going to provide the in-game story and plot that two years of this thing has failed to provide, it's not going to happen. Destiny 2 is where it's at. And my hope is that the bits of story they've managed to drop with Taken King and Rise of Iron will finally coalesce into whatever broad vision they have for the Destiny in-game universe as a whole going forward. And they won't be able to realize that merging and progression until the sequel.

I agree that good writing in the grimoire doesn't translate into good writing in the game (and is a different beast, really), but good storytelling can happen in the game and good writing is essential to that. I don't have your psychic powers nor do I understand why a new game is required for in-game storytelling to be great, or maybe I'm just not able to understand that point so let's agree to disagree.

So, it is over-the-top skepticism on my part. I have very low expectations on their writing ability for this expansion. I've had two years worth of letdowns with Bungie's storytelling to inform how I'm viewing this.

'Member when Bungie's stories were what set its games apart from everything else at the time? Yeahhhhhhh I member that.....

I remember that, too, which is why I continue to be optimistic (but maybe this really just personality differences?)

I think we're misunderstanding each other, and that's because I may not have effectively explained some of my thoughts. I think we're more or less on the same page, though I think yours is more literal about this game right now and why can't it work in the context of itself, whereas my argument is more big picture epic Destiny storytelling scope and that it can't go places in what's left of Destiny 1.

Also, I sent you an email.

From what's been said and shown, especially in the live stream with the story team, I think we know a few things:
- Rise of Iron will probably focus more on in game characters than ever before. A valid criticism of Destiny 1.0 was that we had a number of characters who seemed like they should be interesting, from the Speaker to the Vanguard, but who we basically learned nothing about.
- Rise of Iron seems like it will involve us ending the SIVA threat which the Iron Lords only contained and hid away. A valid criticism of Destiny 1.0 was that even though we went places and did things, our actions were barely acknowledged.
- It sounds like the missions themselves will be more interesting both gameplay and plot wise. Especially if they manage to hold up to what sounds like a really fun introductory mission. A valid criticism of Destiny 1.0 was far too many of the missions had us killing things while our Ghost worked to open a door.
- The story team was said to have grown in size somewhat recently. Hopefully this means that Bungie has recognized that in game story needs to be a much larger focus than it has been in the past.

I'm cautiously optimistic for Rise of Iron. Even if it is somewhat shorter than The Taken King, I'm hopeful that we might get more from the in game story as it focuses on what happened to the past Iron Lords.

The Devs play this game, and are looking at the ARG too. I would imagine the good writing there influences things, even if indirectly.

Remember it took an outside company completely rewriting all the canon to kill Halo's story in 4 and 5, and even then we still had some very good scenes with Cortana in 4.

Destiny is the opposite, the game is a void and the backup material is nearly all good. The only way for the game to go is up.

Makes it sound infallible.

Makes it sound infallible.

Bungie Halo has meh writing, good narrative structure.

The biggest problem with the trilogy is that Halo 2, as good as the writing might feel by itself, left Halo 3 with no plot room to work with.

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Edit: And I have to personally disagree on the in-game writing getting better with each expansion. I'll give you Taken King, but nothing prior.

Really?

House of Wolves no better than vanilla or Dark Below?

Edit: And I have to personally disagree on the in-game writing getting better with each expansion. I'll give you Taken King, but nothing prior.

Really?

House of Wolves no better than vanilla or Dark Below?

Quite frankly yes. They were all basically the same in terms of story. In fact, Vanilla was probably the best of the three.

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Can I have some when you're done with them please?

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Halo's story flowed pretty well. I preferred it to Gears of War, which tried to ape the emotional appeal but came off like a WWE version. Halo 4 pretty much abandoned the hard military SF for generic space shooter 20XX plot lines with grossly incompetent leaders, vaguely ineffective conspiracies and a villain who's plan and motivation are diametrically opposed to logic and reason.

Destiny's story is closest to their old Marathon Series, where there was no interaction and the only story evidence was random terminals. If the Grimore was in game, that would exactly describe Destiny.

The grimore doesn't directly tie into the in game story telling, but it provides a foundation for what does make it into the game.

My point with the Halo series was that while parts of it are weak, like some of Reach, overall the plot was strong enough to lead to many memorable moments and a logical consistency that shone well throughout the marketing and secondary materials as well as Halo 3, which was the best of the series and managed to tie up everything rather nicely.

Destiny's grimoire writing is the same, a solid foundation that makes the rest of the game operate on a better level. Just imagine if they had never bothered with the IB item's names, just some random V jokes ripped from V for Vendetta. People wouldn't have been half as interested in them, and Bungie may not have bothered to make the expansion focused on the Iron Lords. Like Praydeth, a few names scrawled in the margin of a text have been grown and nurtured bit by bit until it turns into a very interesting story mission. The IB lore has grown into an expansion, with more story and cutscenes to tease us.

I admit, a bunch of guardians trying to kill tiny robots doesn't make for epic trailers, but that so far has been my only gripe about this expansion.

Destiny's story is closest to their old Marathon Series, where there was no interaction and the only story evidence was random terminals. If the Grimore was in game, that would exactly describe Destiny.

The form has similarities, but the function is different. Marathon's terminals drove a strong core narrative around the immediate happenings. Destiny's Grimoire is good lore; it enriches what is supposed to be there in the main game, but the content wasn't written to replace what's missing. That is, while moving the Grimoire in-game would be a huge improvement, it wouldn't solve core storytelling issues (I'm hoping that TTK is indicative of continued stepping in the right direction).

Not that I'd have any issues with a modern AAA game taking a pure Marathon approach. If it got good reviews we'd get some properly explosive Cody threads.

Destiny's story is closest to their old Marathon Series, where there was no interaction and the only story evidence was random terminals. If the Grimore was in game, that would exactly describe Destiny.

[snip] That is, while moving the Grimoire in-game would be a huge improvement, it wouldn't solve core storytelling issues.

Not that I'd have any issues with a modern AAA game taking a pure Marathon approach. If it got good reviews we'd get some properly explosive Cody threads.

I agree that it wouldn't solve the core storytelling issues, but it certainly would improve player's emotional attachment to the game. Just think of some of those grimoire cards that fans have put to audio performances. I'm thinking specifically of the Thorn story. They wouldn't all have to be radio-play style performances, but some select few it would be amazing. How great would that be to have your ghost read/play/show-text to you for recently unlocked grimoire during your next loading screen/trip to the tower?