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Let's talk about Villains (Off-Topic)

by SonofMacPhisto @, Friday, November 18, 2016, 12:15 (2716 days ago)

Hello, DBO.

I hope this post finds you all well. I'm working on a bit of a role play project involving villainy. Right now, I'm sort of fleshing out the character. I'd like some input on creating someone truly evil and worthy of strong feelings, yet allows space for his enemies to learn something positive about themselves. Sort of "good needs evil" kind of vibe?

Naturally, I tend to lean towards characters like Loki from the Marvel Cinematic Universe and Moriarty from Sherlock with a dash of the Vaygr from Homeworld. I also appreciate making your heroes villainous and your villains heroic.

What say you all?

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Unbroken

by Blackt1g3r @, Login is from an untrusted domain in MN, Friday, November 18, 2016, 12:40 (2716 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto

Ever watch Unbreakable? The villain in that move was really well done but I won't say more in case you haven't seen it.

In general I think villains are better when they aren't strictly evil. When they are doing evil things, but for good reasons. Or perhaps when their past has caused them to become evil in some way. Especially if whatever caused them to become evil is directly related to what caused the heroes to become heroes.

Unbroken

by EffortlessFury @, Friday, November 18, 2016, 20:21 (2716 days ago) @ Blackt1g3r

Ever watch Unbreakable? The villain in that move was really well done but I won't say more in case you haven't seen it.

In general I think villains are better when they aren't strictly evil. When they are doing evil things, but for good reasons. Or perhaps when their past has caused them to become evil in some way. Especially if whatever caused them to become evil is directly related to what caused the heroes to become heroes.

Bad people don't believe they are bad. They may be aware the things they are doing are bad, or even that their reasons are "bad," but they always feel their reasons are justifiable and the reasons justify their actions.

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Unless you're the Joker

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Friday, November 18, 2016, 23:55 (2716 days ago) @ EffortlessFury

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Unless you're the Joker

by EffortlessFury @, Sunday, November 20, 2016, 19:49 (2714 days ago) @ ZackDark

I suppose it depends on which Joker you're speaking to. Does the Joker traditionally have a motivation other than being psychotic? I mean, you're not really writing a compelling motivation there. The Joker as a character is more about who he is and how he executes than why.

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Unless you're the Joker

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Sunday, November 20, 2016, 20:24 (2714 days ago) @ EffortlessFury

I suppose it depends on which Joker you're speaking to. Does the Joker traditionally have a motivation other than being psychotic? I mean, you're not really writing a compelling motivation there. The Joker as a character is more about who he is and how he executes than why.

Honestly in my opinion The Dark Knight almost nailed it perfectly: "Some men just want to watch the world burn."

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Unless you're the Joker

by Harmanimus @, Sunday, November 20, 2016, 20:55 (2714 days ago) @ Xenos

I much prefer his existence as a foil to Batman's assumption of heroism. That he exists purely because batman exists, and will always exist so long as the Batman we know exists. Because all it takes is one bad day, and Batman has been tetering on the edge the whole time.

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My point is he doesn't even care if he is justified

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Sunday, November 20, 2016, 23:19 (2714 days ago) @ EffortlessFury

He just does.

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My point is he doesn't even care if he is justified

by stabbim @, Des Moines, IA, USA, Monday, November 21, 2016, 04:03 (2714 days ago) @ ZackDark

The problem with this type of bad guy is that you need to be Heath Ledger to pull it off convincingly.

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My point is he doesn't even care if he is justified

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, November 21, 2016, 12:31 (2713 days ago) @ stabbim

The problem with this type of bad guy is that you need to be Heath Ledger to pull it off convincingly.

Just watched a "Too Young" documentary on him. What a loss!

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Unbroken

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, November 21, 2016, 00:02 (2714 days ago) @ Blackt1g3r

Ever watch Unbreakable? The villain in that move was really well done but I won't say more in case you haven't seen it.

In general I think villains are better when they aren't strictly evil. When they are doing evil things, but for good reasons. Or perhaps when their past has caused them to become evil in some way. Especially if whatever caused them to become evil is directly related to what caused the heroes to become heroes.

Not necessarily. It can be just as fun or appropriate if you villain is just pure evil. I mean, can you imagine Rocky IV with Ivan Drago as a guy with a complex, nuanced psychology? If he felt something when he killed Apollo? No that would suck, because the film is about the evils of Communism and the strength of the American spirit.

Pure evil with no shades can work depending on what story you want to tell.

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Unbroken

by kidtsunami @, Atlanta, GA, Monday, November 21, 2016, 00:08 (2714 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Ever watch Unbreakable? The villain in that move was really well done but I won't say more in case you haven't seen it.

In general I think villains are better when they aren't strictly evil. When they are doing evil things, but for good reasons. Or perhaps when their past has caused them to become evil in some way. Especially if whatever caused them to become evil is directly related to what caused the heroes to become heroes.


Not necessarily. It can be just as fun or appropriate if you villain is just pure evil. I mean, can you imagine Rocky IV with Ivan Drago as a guy with a complex, nuanced psychology? If he felt something when he killed Apollo? No that would suck, because the film is about the evils of Communism and the strength of the American spirit.

Pure evil with no shades can work depending on what story you want to tell.

I would be so excited to see him wrestle with being a cog in an awful machine and have the death of an opponent weigh on him.

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Unbroken

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, November 21, 2016, 00:29 (2714 days ago) @ kidtsunami
edited by Cody Miller, Monday, November 21, 2016, 00:35

Ever watch Unbreakable? The villain in that move was really well done but I won't say more in case you haven't seen it.

In general I think villains are better when they aren't strictly evil. When they are doing evil things, but for good reasons. Or perhaps when their past has caused them to become evil in some way. Especially if whatever caused them to become evil is directly related to what caused the heroes to become heroes.


Not necessarily. It can be just as fun or appropriate if you villain is just pure evil. I mean, can you imagine Rocky IV with Ivan Drago as a guy with a complex, nuanced psychology? If he felt something when he killed Apollo? No that would suck, because the film is about the evils of Communism and the strength of the American spirit.

Pure evil with no shades can work depending on what story you want to tell.


I would be so excited to see him wrestle with being a cog in an awful machine and have the death of an opponent weigh on him.

But then it would be a completely different movie - one where communism no longer removes your humanity. Thus my point. The theme of the film only works with a one dimensional villain.

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But is it a good theme?

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Monday, November 21, 2016, 01:08 (2714 days ago) @ Cody Miller

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Let's talk about Villains

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Friday, November 18, 2016, 12:44 (2716 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto

Hello, DBO.

I hope this post finds you all well. I'm working on a bit of a role play project involving villainy. Right now, I'm sort of fleshing out the character. I'd like some input on creating someone truly evil and worthy of strong feelings, yet allows space for his enemies to learn something positive about themselves. Sort of "good needs evil" kind of vibe?

Naturally, I tend to lean towards characters like Loki from the Marvel Cinematic Universe and Moriarty from Sherlock with a dash of the Vaygr from Homeworld. I also appreciate making your heroes villainous and your villains heroic.

What say you all?

I think the last thing you said is the most important--interesting villains see themselves as the hero of their own story. Also, I don't know what your role play project is, but in a narrative, you probably don't want to reveal in the first act that the villain is actually the father of the protagonist. :)

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Let's talk about Villains

by stabbim @, Des Moines, IA, USA, Friday, November 18, 2016, 13:06 (2716 days ago) @ Kermit

interesting villains see themselves as the hero of their own story.

[image]

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+1.

by ProbablyLast, Monday, November 21, 2016, 02:45 (2714 days ago) @ stabbim

I need to go replay that game.

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Great topic. No time now but I'll come back this weekend! :)

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Friday, November 18, 2016, 12:55 (2716 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto

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Good! Looking forward to it.

by SonofMacPhisto @, Friday, November 18, 2016, 17:30 (2716 days ago) @ Ragashingo

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Let's talk about Villains

by stabbim @, Des Moines, IA, USA, Friday, November 18, 2016, 13:54 (2716 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto

Well, I don't know if it helps, but the most interesting villain I've seen lately has to be Kilgrave from Jessica Jones.

Unlike say, Handsome Jack, Kilgrave doesn't necessarily see himself as a "hero." Protagonist, maybe, but his aspirations don't really reach to "hero" level. He doesn't think he's bettering the world or doing anything grand. He doesn't have goals, other than an obsession with controlling Jessica. What's interesting about him is how his particular ability warps his own perception of the world and others. There's an argument to be made that he may not fully grasp WHY what he does isn't OK - which does make him similar to those "I'm the hero" villains, although it comes from a different place.

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On a similar note...

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Friday, November 18, 2016, 14:33 (2716 days ago) @ stabbim

Well, I don't know if it helps, but the most interesting villain I've seen lately has to be Kilgrave from Jessica Jones.

Unlike say, Handsome Jack, Kilgrave doesn't necessarily see himself as a "hero." Protagonist, maybe, but his aspirations don't really reach to "hero" level. He doesn't think he's bettering the world or doing anything grand. He doesn't have goals, other than an obsession with controlling Jessica. What's interesting about him is how his particular ability warps his own perception of the world and others. There's an argument to be made that he may not fully grasp WHY what he does isn't OK - which does make him similar to those "I'm the hero" villains, although it comes from a different place.

In that same universe, there's also Wilson Fisk. You understand why he is the way that he is, and he does see himself as the means to a better end, but also ultimately acknowledges that he is the villain (see his interpretation of the Good Samaritan story). The way he assesses situations and does the "logical thing' (trying to kill Frank, before deciding to help him go free instead) helps define him as someone who isn't 100% "evil", but who is willing to do evil things. He is only truly evil when he loses his temper, which is a direct result of his upbringing, and it's something that he is constantly fighting. Great character.

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^this, too^

by stabbim @, Des Moines, IA, USA, Friday, November 18, 2016, 14:46 (2716 days ago) @ Korny

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On a similar note...

by EffortlessFury @, Friday, November 18, 2016, 20:24 (2716 days ago) @ Korny

Well, I don't know if it helps, but the most interesting villain I've seen lately has to be Kilgrave from Jessica Jones.

Unlike say, Handsome Jack, Kilgrave doesn't necessarily see himself as a "hero." Protagonist, maybe, but his aspirations don't really reach to "hero" level. He doesn't think he's bettering the world or doing anything grand. He doesn't have goals, other than an obsession with controlling Jessica. What's interesting about him is how his particular ability warps his own perception of the world and others. There's an argument to be made that he may not fully grasp WHY what he does isn't OK - which does make him similar to those "I'm the hero" villains, although it comes from a different place.


In that same universe, there's also Wilson Fisk. You understand why he is the way that he is, and he does see himself as the means to a better end, but also ultimately acknowledges that he is the villain (see his interpretation of the Good Samaritan story). The way he assesses situations and does the "logical thing' (trying to kill Frank, before deciding to help him go free instead) helps define him as someone who isn't 100% "evil", but who is willing to do evil things. He is only truly evil when he loses his temper, which is a direct result of his upbringing, and it's something that he is constantly fighting. Great character.

Also reminds me of The Operative from Firefly. He knows what he does is deplorable but he does it because he truly believes that these actions will bring about a better life for the rest of society. He is the sacrificial lamb upon which the rest of existence can be built free of guilt and dirty hands.

Unfortunately we all know the cause he fought for was a sham...but for the longest time he didn't know that and saw himself as the hero.

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On a similar note...

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Friday, November 18, 2016, 20:30 (2716 days ago) @ EffortlessFury

And after he walked away from the Alliance he went to go help teach Dr. Strange... while wearing the same outfit and using the same weapon... :p

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On a similar note...

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, November 21, 2016, 03:28 (2714 days ago) @ EffortlessFury

Also reminds me of The Operative from Firefly. He knows what he does is deplorable but he does it because he truly believes that these actions will bring about a better life for the rest of society. He is the sacrificial lamb upon which the rest of existence can be built free of guilt and dirty hands.

Unfortunately we all know the cause he fought for was a sham...but for the longest time he didn't know that and saw himself as the hero.

I have always thought that a really cool story in the Halo universe would be as follows:

Somehow (pre reach), a Spartan discovers the truth behind the program. That they are kidnapped, mutilated (many just die), and replaced by clones who wither away. Wishing this upon nobody else, the Spartan attempts to find his parents and tell them the truth, so that everyone would know about the horrible things Oni did.

The villain would be someone form Oni tracking him down. A Locke type guy. Turns out, because the covenant are going to completely wipe us out, a secret program is just what's needed. Panic, backlash, and the unwillingness to sacrifice children would jeopardize our survival.

In the end, the Spartan would come to accept that truth. The truth that his duty is to the survival of the human race whatever the cost. He'd surrender to the operative, only to be killed.

You could add a journalist similar to what's his name from hunt the truth, who works with the Spartan. The Spartan would then have to betray him to keep the secret.

But you know, 343 would never do that.

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On a similar note...

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Monday, November 21, 2016, 07:51 (2713 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Also reminds me of The Operative from Firefly. He knows what he does is deplorable but he does it because he truly believes that these actions will bring about a better life for the rest of society. He is the sacrificial lamb upon which the rest of existence can be built free of guilt and dirty hands.

Unfortunately we all know the cause he fought for was a sham...but for the longest time he didn't know that and saw himself as the hero.


I have always thought that a really cool story in the Halo universe would be as follows:

Somehow (pre reach), a Spartan discovers the truth behind the program. That they are kidnapped, mutilated (many just die), and replaced by clones who wither away. Wishing this upon nobody else, the Spartan attempts to find his parents and tell them the truth, so that everyone would know about the horrible things Oni did.

I don't understand. Don't all the Spartan IIs pretty much know exactly what happened? They know they were taken from home. They know they were conscripted into the UNSC. The survivors even knew what happened to those that didn't live through the final surgeries. They were at the funeral for their fallen friends! The only thing I can't remember off the top of my head is if the Spartan IIs knew about their short-lived clones.


The villain would be someone form Oni tracking him down. A Locke type guy. Turns out, because the covenant are going to completely wipe us out, a secret program is just what's needed. Panic, backlash, and the unwillingness to sacrifice children would jeopardize our survival.

In the end, the Spartan would come to accept that truth. The truth that his duty is to the survival of the human race whatever the cost. He'd surrender to the operative, only to be killed.

You could add a journalist similar to what's his name from hunt the truth, who works with the Spartan. The Spartan would then have to betray him to keep the secret.

But you know, 343 would never do that.

Well... except they did do that. Or pretty close to it. Have you never watched Homecoming from Halo Legends?

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Let's talk about Villains

by Harmanimus @, Friday, November 18, 2016, 21:16 (2716 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto

As has been touched on in other posts to some degree, I feel that what makes a strong villain is one main feature: they are a relatable counterpoint to the hero.

Great villains aren't great because they stand on their own as some creative masterpiece of evil. It is their relationship to whatever is classified as good in the world. Darth Vader is a great villain, as he reflects the fear and anger that Luke is capable ofbut uses it to a dark purpose.

The Joker is a spectacular villain, when handled correctly, because his existance is a reflection of Batman's bad day which formed him, and that in many regards they Joker only exists as an entity in relation to Bats. Many of his Rogues Gallery work as they share something of his personality, but show it off a different tangent or extreme.

General Shepard (regardless of ones feelings on the series) is also a great example. He exists in response to the actions of the heros in MW and as a string puller. He takes his motivation from the same place the players do, but acts it out in a fashion that shows an abyss of judgement that only really makes sense in relation to Soap and Price both showing a necessary level of restraint.

The other direction I feel a villain can come from is as a force of nature. A driven antagonist beyond reason. However, the power of that villain still requires a relation to he hero(s) for any reql impact.

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Let's talk about Villains

by SonofMacPhisto @, Sunday, November 20, 2016, 05:59 (2714 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto

I've read all these posts, and it has been lovely to do so. Thank you, everyone (still waiting on Raga, though :P).

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Let's talk about Villains

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Sunday, November 20, 2016, 08:18 (2714 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto

I've read all these posts, and it has been lovely to do so. Thank you, everyone (still waiting on Raga, though :P).

Oh fine. :p (May have accidentally bought The Witcher 3 and... well... you know how these things go, I'm sure!)

Lots of good posts already so I got to thinking about other things that might help flesh out a Villain:

As other have noted, sometimes perhaps even often times a Villain believes themselves to be in the right. Or if not in the right then at least their actions will help some greater purpose they believe in. Of course, there are also Villains who do what they do to maintain or expand their own power or increase their own wealth.

There are also those Villains who travel down a path of choices starting with small ones, a temptation here, a minor misuse of power or authority there, that slowly leads to ever greater abuses. Don't know what kind of project you're working on exactly, but if you have time it might be fun to start your Villain off as one of these abusers and then come back to them later with them having more authority or a new position they gained by having your hero(es) assist in one of these minor abuses (have the minor Villain make a good, if slightly iffy argument, for the heroes' help) only for it to come back to haunt the heroes later. Personal connection to your Villain doesn't just have to be "the evil Villain kidnapped my son and killed my wife" type situations. Something like "I helped cause this mess and now I have to clean it up" can be fun to play around with.

Another fun Villain type can be the Villain who tries to do the right thing but is forced or tricked or backed into a corner and who then instead of doing the right thing (maybe at great personal cost) instead does or has to make the wrong choice. This could give your Villain a more tragic past. Maybe he or she technically has the power to turn their choice back around but practically speaking doing so would either result in consequences (either personal or on a wider level) that they are not prepared to accept. Maybe they feel trapped even as they are causing considerable disruption or destruction.

There can also be a place for a Villain who just doesn't seem to make sense from the hero's point of view. Maybe they bypasses a town or star system when their forces destroyed so many others. Maybe there are contradictory signs that point to a physical or mental health issue that may or may not exist. Figure out the Villain's reason for these odd actions for yourself (maybe not everything is about or leads to them but rather someone close to them... heh, here I am starting to develop my own villain while listing possibilities!) then weave them into your project as clues and / or dead ends.

I guess to sum up, don't be afraid to go a little off the beaten path here or there in order to give your Villain some unique character.

Let's talk about Villains

by EffortlessFury @, Sunday, November 20, 2016, 20:07 (2714 days ago) @ Ragashingo

Something that kind of riffs off of the "I helped make this mess" is the Dark Brotherhood arc from Oblivion. Spoilers ahead, of course.

In it, you're given orders to kill via dead drops left by your handler Lucien. It turns out, however, that the dead drops were compromised by some third party and you were killing the wrong people.

One interesting narrative mechanic, if you wanted a more classically evil villain, could be to omit the middle man and have your villain direct the players to do what appear to be beneficial actions that later turn out to be just the opposite. You'd need to give them avenues the uncover the truth but they'd need to be paying closer attention.

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Let's talk about Villains

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, November 21, 2016, 03:16 (2714 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto
edited by Cody Miller, Monday, November 21, 2016, 03:21

Hello, DBO.

I hope this post finds you all well. I'm working on a bit of a role play project involving villainy. Right now, I'm sort of fleshing out the character. I'd like some input on creating someone truly evil and worthy of strong feelings, yet allows space for his enemies to learn something positive about themselves.

I think this gmork is the embodiment of what you're looking for:

[image]

His motives are evil yet logical, and get right to the heart of what it means to be human.

If you are unfamiliar:

Fantastica is the world of human imagination, and there is a great nothing destroying it. The nothing is basically the despair, doubt, and lies in our heads. Gmork wants the nothing to destroy fantastica, since people without imagination, dreams, and hopes are much easier to control. So fighting the nothing means embracing our dreams.

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Let's talk about Villains

by SonofMacPhisto @, Wednesday, November 23, 2016, 13:45 (2711 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I think this gmork is the embodiment of what you're looking for:

[image]

His motives are evil yet logical, and get right to the heart of what it means to be human.

If you are unfamiliar:

Fantastica is the world of human imagination, and there is a great nothing destroying it. The nothing is basically the despair, doubt, and lies in our heads. Gmork wants the nothing to destroy fantastica, since people without imagination, dreams, and hopes are much easier to control. So fighting the nothing means embracing our dreams.

Interesting. How does Gmork see himself? Is he on the side of the angles, for example? Or does he know his actions are a naked power grab?

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Re: My Villain

by SonofMacPhisto @, Wednesday, November 23, 2016, 13:51 (2711 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto

I've settled on at least one motivation.

He sees the universe as a brutally gorgeous happenstance. An uncaring, harsh place with the possibility of unimaginable beauty. However, he believes that any chance in seeing such beauty must be earned, and that sentient life either fights, or it dies. In his murderous way, he fancies himself a teacher.

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Re: My Villain

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Wednesday, November 23, 2016, 14:05 (2711 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto

I've settled on at least one motivation.

He sees the universe as a brutally gorgeous happenstance. An uncaring, harsh place with the possibility of unimaginable beauty. However, he believes that any chance in seeing such beauty must be earned, and that sentient life either fights, or it dies. In his murderous way, he fancies himself a teacher.

That reminds me of General Marder from Titanfall 2. He sums up the motivations for the entire conflict in the series in a single four-minute-long speech about expendability and human progress:

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Re: My Villain

by SonofMacPhisto @, Wednesday, November 23, 2016, 14:10 (2711 days ago) @ Korny

Oh, neat! I haven't finished TF2's campaign (it doesn't really seize me, go figure) so I'll watch that later.

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Book of Sorrows-like?

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Wednesday, November 23, 2016, 15:00 (2711 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto

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Couldn't say TBH

by SonofMacPhisto @, Wednesday, November 23, 2016, 18:04 (2711 days ago) @ ZackDark

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Re: My Villain

by Robot Chickens, Wednesday, November 23, 2016, 17:17 (2711 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto

Reminds me of the justifications of Social Darwinists. I like it.

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Re: My Villain

by SonofMacPhisto @, Wednesday, November 23, 2016, 18:03 (2711 days ago) @ Robot Chickens

Reminds me of the justifications of Social Darwinists. I like it.

Kind of? The group he targets are the elite of human empires spanning hundreds of systems. Regular folk he doesn't really care about.

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Re: My Villain

by Robot Chickens, Wednesday, November 23, 2016, 18:11 (2711 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto

Reminds me of the justifications of Social Darwinists. I like it.


Kind of? The group he targets are the elite of human empires spanning hundreds of systems. Regular folk he doesn't really care about.

Interesting. Adds a sticking-it-to-the man component that could earn him folk-hero status. That being said, it seems as though he hasn't carried his ideology through if he's not also challenging the regular folk to "earn the right to experience the potential beauty of the universe." Just a thought...

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Re: My Villain

by SonofMacPhisto @, Wednesday, November 23, 2016, 18:21 (2711 days ago) @ Robot Chickens

Reminds me of the justifications of Social Darwinists. I like it.


Kind of? The group he targets are the elite of human empires spanning hundreds of systems. Regular folk he doesn't really care about.


Interesting. Adds a sticking-it-to-the man component that could earn him folk-hero status. That being said, it seems as though he hasn't carried his ideology through if he's not also challenging the regular folk to "earn the right to experience the potential beauty of the universe." Just a thought...

Perhaps they have to want it, to? If you don't want it, you're not interesting, and probably not any fun to fight.

He also despises hypocrisy. "You strive for what you perceive as greatness, yet never risk sacrifice?"

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melikes

by Robot Chickens, Wednesday, November 23, 2016, 18:48 (2711 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto

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