More Titanfall > Destiny PvP Stuff I Noticed

So I took about a month off of Destiny, and hopped back in today because weeeee Iron Banana!

Wow, I forgot how rage-inducing this game is. It legit sucks compared to Titanfall. Here are a few key differences:

- In Titanfall, your team is *always* blue. The enemy is *always* orange. Friendly units have blue lights all over them regardless of what shader they're using. Enemy units have orange, regardless of what shader they're using. Certain enemy actions also cause them to get a glowing orange highlight. In Destiny your team can be either blue or red. This is not consistent, and you can switch colors every single match. It's infuriating after playing just a little Titanfall.

- In Titanfall (and every other current FPS), you just don't die to bullshit impossible through a wall and around a corner shots. Ever. Destiny is fucking full of them. It's awful. I got rocketed through a wall, sniped through a tree, a doorway, and a box, and killed by several people before they were visible on my screen today, and I only played 3 matches. God DAMN. That shit was really frustrating. Even worse, when I'm dying to all of this bullshit and I still get "the best around"... There's a major problem there. That means everyone in the game is dying all the time for no damn reason. It's insane.

- Sniper ranges. As discussed before, Destiny's maps are too goddamn small for how quickly the players move, and the bigger maps are horribly designed so that they encourage hugging the outer boundary rather than actually using the map space. Furthermore, the weapon ready speed is insanely fast in Destiny. Titanfall sniping is ever soo much better. Maps are much larger. Your average range of engagement is two-three times as far as in Destiny. Furthermore, map design (and overall game mode design, honestly) encourages players to press forward and engage the enemy. The sniper rifles take longer to ADS and have a higher base zoom than in Destiny. You want to stay in a long sightline. But the enemy is pushing up quickly! So sniping is all about taking a shot or two and repositioning. It's very, very satisfying and not at all overpowered. Sniping in TF is also hard as hell, but any hit OHKs. Even so, you *never* see snipers at the top of the kill list.

- Radar. Titanfall's radar is always active, even when ADSing. When someone shoots, it pinpoints their location instead of just showing a general cone of presence. It's great.

- Weapon ready times. This is a HUGE difference. Destiny's characters have the fastest, strongest runningest and jumpiest legs ever, but their arms are as slow as molasses. Changing weapons takes forever and then still leaves you with a bonus, inexplicable delay before you can actually shoot the gun. So many deaths are because I changed weapons, ADSed, pulled the trigger, and *nothing fucking happened*. Fuck you game. Give me a visual cue that my weapon isn't ready instead of every visual cue that it is when it really isn't. In titanfall, by comparison, weapon switching is super fast. Using the "switch faster" perk makes it basically instantaneous. If your gun looks ready to fire, it is.

- Weapon ideal ranges. Destiny's ideal weapon ranges are OHK shotgun range - 10m. Close and OHK shotgun range faster than non OHK guns range - 20m, Hand cannons - 25m, pulse rifles or scout rifles to 30m, snipers at 30+. So basically you want a shotgun or sniper if you're outside of the 21-30m range. In Titanfall, the weapons all have very (VERY) fast TTKs. The damage doesn't drop off over distance, only accuracy does. So your ideal range is based purely on how close you need to be to reliably land your shots: Shotguns to 10m (but your melee is always OHK), sub machine guns to 25m, assault rifles to 35m (45m if scoped), and snipers at 50m+. The burst fire AR has about 5m more effective range than the other ARs. One of the SMGs has about 5m more range than the others as well (but needs to be reloaded more often). Note the dead zone from 46m-50m. This is great. It allows a heads up player to push on a sniper knowing they're hard to hit, or a sniper to fall back knowing they have time to escape because they're hard to hit at that range. Very smart. Even so, a SMG guy who noticed a sniper at 70m out can still kill him if they take the time to aim each shot and pace it properly (and the sniper doesn't dodge). Your best play is usually to put a couple of shots on the enemy and then run. Occasionally you'll get lucky.

- Bullshit. There isn't any in Titanfall. There's just not. I've had deaths where i knew better than to go through that door, but none where I know I made the right play and died anyway because of netcode shenanigans.

- Killcams. God but killcams are so nice to have. They show you exactly how easy you were to pick off, or how lucky the other guy was. Unlike Destiny with no killcams so you can't see the amazing shot through seven walls and around a corner to kill you in the toe.

- Ammo. So much this. In titanfall you have a primary weapon which actually is the one you primarily use. This weapon always has ammo on spawn. The only time you run out is if you live for a really long time and burn through that ammo in which case, who cares? You got your kills! Your secondary weapon is either a true sidearm like a revolver or an anti-titan weapon. Destiny, how often do you get kills with primary vs. secondary? The secondary shotgun/sniper is king. And you run out of ammo. Often. You can die 10 times in a row and still have no ammo for that gun. Pure hot garbage. Also, the guns do not give you a visual or audible indicator that they are out of ammo (unlike real guns, I might add). They click the next time you fire, but there's no click, no slide held back, no ping, and no auto-mag-eject when you go empty. In titanfall when you run out of ammo (again, hard to do), the game automatically switches you back to your other gun. You can also pick up any gun on the battlefield and use it if you like.

- Respawning. In titanfall, when I press the button to respawn, I do. Immediately. So sick of jamming on that X button in Destiny and just seeing "findng spawn location" for ten seconds, only to end up being aborted by some sniper across the map. Speaking of:

- Spawn camping. I'm so annoyed at this in Destiny. It's been a problem since beta (probably alpha, I didn't play that so I can't say) and it's still awful. No one should be killable before they're controllable. Not even for the two or three seconds after that. Now, it is *possible* to get a spawn kill in Titanfall, but very, very hard. Maps are much larger and spawns are intentionally far from the action (about a 5-10 second run, generally). The maps are designed with "spawn areas" that are generally protected from snipers and other long sight lines. So much better.

Anyway, wow, I didn't realize how bad Destiny was. It's just really, really poor compared to the glory that is titanfall. Still a better shooter than, say, fallout 4, but that's not a game anyone should be using as a benchmark. I can't believe this is going MLG. So many problems. So sad. Bungie, please pick up Titanfall and see how much pure FUN that game delivers, without any frustrating design. It's rewarding at all levels.

I am excited for SRL's return though. Last time around it was glorious, and I enjoyed it even when losing (which I always did because one of my friends is like top 100 in the world or some nonsense. How he finishes 8 seconds faster than me with the same bike is beyond my ken).

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I've definitely got a lot of them during the free weekend on Titanfall 2... It actually felt even more infuriating than in Destiny, for some reason.

PS: the weapon ready thing is both a balance and a framerate thing. TF2 is 60fps, no? Every movement is crispier in 60fps.

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I've definitely got a lot of them during the free weekend on Titanfall 2... It actually felt even more infuriating than in Destiny, for some reason.

Really? I've played a ton and never had it happen once. Weird.

PS: the weapon ready thing is both a balance and a framerate thing. TF2 is 60fps, no? Every movement is crispier in 60fps.

Yes, of course 60 fps makes a difference, but Destiny's weapon readiness problem is that there are seconds where your gun looks ready and you can ADS with it, but it isn't actually ready and it won't fire if you pull the trigger. The game needs to give you a visual cue that engagement is not a good idea right now because your gun isn't ready. If switching weapons takes five years, that's fine as long as there's a matching 5 year long animation. Why does switching weapons take three seconds but the animation is only 1.5 seconds long? That's where the problem lies. You can really see it when you do something like blink. They intentionally added a delay to weapon readiness there for balance purposes, but they didn't alter the animation at all. Your gun still looks ready even though it isn't.

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Really? I've played a ton and never had it happen once. Weird.

It's clearly a lag issue. Odds are, you're less likely to get lag in Titanfall 2 than Destiny. Unfortunately, I get lag on both, regardless of odds. :p

Yes, of course 60 fps makes a difference, but Destiny's weapon readiness problem is that there are seconds where your gun looks ready and you can ADS with it, but it isn't actually ready and it won't fire if you pull the trigger. The game needs to give you a visual cue that engagement is not a good idea right now because your gun isn't ready. If switching weapons takes five years, that's fine as long as there's a matching 5 year long animation. Why does switching weapons take three seconds but the animation is only 1.5 seconds long? That's where the problem lies. You can really see it when you do something like blink. They intentionally added a delay to weapon readiness there for balance purposes, but they didn't alter the animation at all. Your gun still looks ready even though it isn't.

Yeah, I feel like they tweak around battle-readiness but can't quite keep it up animation-wise.

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Really? I've played a ton and never had it happen once. Weird.

It's clearly a lag issue. Odds are, you're less likely to get lag in Titanfall 2 than Destiny. Unfortunately, I get lag on both, regardless of odds. :p

That's a shame. Both games play well when there's no lag (much easier to achieve in TF2).

Yes, of course 60 fps makes a difference, but Destiny's weapon readiness problem is that there are seconds where your gun looks ready and you can ADS with it, but it isn't actually ready and it won't fire if you pull the trigger. The game needs to give you a visual cue that engagement is not a good idea right now because your gun isn't ready. If switching weapons takes five years, that's fine as long as there's a matching 5 year long animation. Why does switching weapons take three seconds but the animation is only 1.5 seconds long? That's where the problem lies. You can really see it when you do something like blink. They intentionally added a delay to weapon readiness there for balance purposes, but they didn't alter the animation at all. Your gun still looks ready even though it isn't.

Yeah, I feel like they tweak around battle-readiness but can't quite keep it up animation-wise.

Yeah. And it gets me killed. Every. Game. ><

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I do like how Titanfall 2's larger maps allow for a larger difference in engagement ranges. That said, I think most of your complaints come from preferring a faster, twitchier game over a slower, more deliberately paced one. That, and your connection might maybe be complete crap? Sure, I see a guy lagging here and there in Destiny. Maybe a guy every other game who I peg as being annoying to kill because he just isn't moving right. But all this getting rocketed through walls and stuff? I simply do not have those kind of problems. Period.

Personally, I'm starting to like Titanfall 2's multiplayer more than I thought I would. Finally upgrading my starting gun to have a longer ranged scope has made a good bit of difference and the Titans are fun. But, the Titans are fun because getting one changes the game from a twitch-fest with insanely short time to kill to something where planning and tactics within the battle become much more important.

Now, give me Titanfall's Titans and larger maps + Destiny's better, slower paced, more strategic on foot combat and I'd be totally in love. :)

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I do like how Titanfall 2's larger maps allow for a larger difference in engagement ranges. That said, I think most of your complaints come from preferring a faster, twitchier game over a slower, more deliberately paced one. That, and your connection might maybe be complete crap? Sure, I see a guy lagging here and there in Destiny. Maybe a guy every other game who I peg as being annoying to kill because he just isn't moving right. But all this getting rocketed through walls and stuff? I simply do not have those kind of problems. Period.

Personally, I'm starting to like Titanfall 2's multiplayer more than I thought I would. Finally upgrading my starting gun to have a longer ranged scope has made a good bit of difference and the Titans are fun. But, the Titans are fun because getting one changes the game from a twitch-fest with insanely short time to kill to something where planning and tactics within the battle become much more important.

Now, give me Titanfall's Titans and larger maps + Destiny's better, slower paced, more strategic on foot combat and I'd be totally in love. :)

Hawken is a F2P Arcade Mech shooter that has a fun mix of Fast-paced combat with moderate-health mechs that can survive 2v1 fights if the pilot is clever enough with his environment and weapons...

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This is funny. After taking a break from Destiny for ~6 weeks, I reinstalled it so that I could participate in the Flawless Raider anniversary tomorrow night. After the download finished, I went to the Temple, saw that it was Iron Banner week, and decided to play a few games to get my feet wet again. Holy crap O_o.

I do like how Titanfall 2's larger maps allow for a larger difference in engagement ranges. That said, I think most of your complaints come from preferring a faster, twitchier game over a slower, more deliberately paced one.

The more I think about it, the more I think I disagree with this assessment of the 2 games. Destiny is slower, absolutely. But I don't actually think it is more deliberate or strategic. The action in Titanfall is lightning-quick, but the size of the maps and sheer amount of traversal possibilities actually creates a far more thoughtful gameplay loop, IMO. In Destiny, depending on the map and gametype, it is very likely that I will see red pings on my radar the moment I spawn. At best, there are only ever 2 or 3 possible ways to get from one point in the map to another, and given how crowded the maps are, that means I'm under fire almost instantly. If the enemy team has established positions covering both exits from my spawn point, then I'm literally out of tactical options. All I can do is put myself into the line of fire and hope I can outgun my opponent, despite the fact that they have the better position.
But in Titanfall, I always have time to think. To set up a plan. Once that plan is in motion, I need to react and think quickly because of all the shifting possibilities, but I'm always thinking. I end up at the top of the scoreboard more often than not... not because I've got the best aim or the fastest reflexes, but because I'm always thinking about possible escape routes, how I'm going to react to an ambush if it comes from this angle or that angle. It is extremely rare that I ever feel like I'm out of options in a game of Titanfall, whereas Destiny constantly makes me feel like I just have to walk into a bad situation and hope for the best.

That, and your connection might maybe be complete crap? Sure, I see a guy lagging here and there in Destiny. Maybe a guy every other game who I peg as being annoying to kill because he just isn't moving right. But all this getting rocketed through walls and stuff? I simply do not have those kind of problems. Period.

Purely anecdotal, but I have a pretty solid connection. Not once have I been killed through a wall or around a corned in Titanfall. But in the 3 matches of Rift that I played today, I experienced such deaths 5-6 times per match. I only mention this because it is completely consistent with my overall experience with Destiny for 2+ years now.

Now, give me Titanfall's Titans and larger maps + Destiny's better, slower paced, more strategic on foot combat and I'd be totally in love. :)

So I've already talked about why I think Destiny's combat is less strategic than Titanfall, but there is another element that comes into play for me. Kahzgul touched on this in his original post, but Titanfall's speed and "snappy" controls create another advantage: the ability to react. Everything in Titanfall moves faster than Destiny, that much is obvious. But more significantly, I think Titanfall's movement speeds, input response time, and time to kill are better tuned to each other. Going back to Destiny today, I was shocked how often I died because I was trying to turn and maneuver my character back behind cover but he just. wouldn't. move. Even though kill times in Destiny are slightly slower, they feel too fast given the sluggish movement and reaction time of your character. I felt like I was moving through molasis the entire time. I would see an enemy come around a corner, and I'd instantly start jamming on the thumb stick, trying to make my guardian side-step behind cover... and he would eventually take the 3 or 4 steps to the right, safely behind cover, and then I'd drop dead anyway. Between the sluggish movement, iffy hit detection, and the "unreliable narrator" that is Destiny's net code, I often feel like the game creates situations where I can't possibly react quickly enough to change the outcome.

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At best I'd say Titanfall's map transversal makes you think about different things, but I absolutely disagree that Titanfall is more strategic once you make contact with an enemy. Getting to them, maybe. But fighting them? Oh. Hell. No. You die far too quickly in Titanfall once engaged to do anything worthwhile.

Is that hyperbole? Yes a little. But no more than you having no movement options in Destiny.

They are different games that approach many things differently. But all to often we get posts like "X > Y" which disparage one game and ignore every possible strength while talking up another game to unrealistic levels of goodness. Personally, I like them both, but I do prefer a game with what I consider much stronger moment to moment combat to a game with larger maps and arguably better map transversal.

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At best I'd say Titanfall's map transversal makes you think about different things, but I absolutely disagree that Titanfall is more strategic once you make contact with an enemy. Getting to them, maybe. But fighting them? Oh. Hell. No. You die far too quickly in Titanfall once engaged to do anything worthwhile.

Is that hyperbole? Yes a little. But no more than you having no movement options in Destiny.

They are different games that approach many things differently. But all to often we get posts like "X > Y" which disparage one game and ignore every possible strength while talking up another game to unrealistic levels of goodness. Personally, I like them both, but I do prefer a game with what I consider much stronger moment to moment combat to a game with larger maps and arguably better map transversal.

I love Titanfall 2, but between Kahzgul's Destiny Lag From Another Realm (though he has provided exactly zero evidence ever, because apparently clicking the share button after a match is too much work), and Cruel claiming that his ship gets sniped from the sky as he's dropping in from Orbit, you'd think that Titanfall rode in on Microsoft's 300,000 cloud servers of blast processing. But Titanfall is just as prone to a laggy player as the next game, and it's not really any different than any other twitch shooter in terms of strategy without the Titans to set it apart.

All I know is that some folks act as if Destiny runs on dial-up, but never feel like they should back up their claims (because they're pretty obviously false claims).
*shrugs*

I don't even drool over Warframe half as much...

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At best I'd say Titanfall's map transversal makes you think about different things, but I absolutely disagree that Titanfall is more strategic once you make contact with an enemy. Getting to them, maybe. But fighting them? Oh. Hell. No. You die far too quickly in Titanfall once engaged to do anything worthwhile.

Is that hyperbole? Yes a little. But no more than you having no movement options in Destiny.

They are different games that approach many things differently. But all to often we get posts like "X > Y" which disparage one game and ignore every possible strength while talking up another game to unrealistic levels of goodness. Personally, I like them both, but I do prefer a game with what I consider much stronger moment to moment combat to a game with larger maps and arguably better map transversal.

I love Titanfall 2, but between Kahzgul's Destiny Lag From Another Realm (though he has provided exactly zero evidence ever, because apparently clicking the share button after a match is too much work), and Cruel claiming that his ship gets sniped from the sky as he's dropping in from Orbit, you'd think that Titanfall rode in on Microsoft's 300,000 cloud servers of blast processing. But Titanfall is just as prone to a laggy player as the next game, and it's not really any different than any other twitch shooter in terms of strategy without the Titans to set it apart.

All I know is that some folks act as if Destiny runs on dial-up, but never feel like they should back up their claims (because they're pretty obviously false claims).
*shrugs*

I don't even drool over Warframe half as much...

C'mon man, you're going to try to tell me with a straight face that spawn camping isn't a common occurrence in Destiny? Do you need me to start recording videos every time it happens? You've been in enough of those matches with me, I figured I wouldn't need to "prove" it to you, but fair enough.
And don't try to dismiss my points by saying I "only have nice/bad things to say". I've written thousands of words here at DBO about all the things I love about Destiny.
I would never argue with someone's likes, preferences, or personal taste. I enjoy discussing differing opinions, but never with the aim of proving who is "right or wrong". Just fun conversation, that's all.
But there are also things that can be measured. Things that can be counted, quantified, and weighed. Destiny PvP has BIG PROBLEMS. Does that mean everything about it is bad? Of course not. Does that mean it can't be enjoyed? Depends on the player, and what their personal tolerances are when it comes to some of these issues.
I'm turned off by rampant negativity as much as anyone, but there is a flip side to that same coin: blind fanboyism. Both conditions involve ignoring the way things actually are in favor of pre-conceived ideas. And to anyone who plays lots of games and has an eye for these sorts of details, saying that Destiny is no worse off than other multiplayer games comes across as fanboyism.

Case in point: I actually ran into a laggy player in Titanfall for the first time today. He was doing the same running in place -> teleporting a few feet forward -> running in place again thing that we all run into from time to time in Destiny. But here's the difference. When he was frozen in place, and I shot him, the hits registered and he died. Consistently. Over and over throughout the entire match. Not once did he kill me with phantom shots while teleporting around the map. Not once did I empty a clip into him without the hits registering. So yes, lag can happen in Titanfall. Of course it can. But, like most technical aspects of the game, Respawn have developed a solution that maintains the quality of the match and keeps things as enjoyable as possible for everyone.

I didn't record the clip. But Xenos, Breitzen, Ragashingo, and BlackTiger were all in the match with me.

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I've experience quite a bit of lag in Titanfall 2. I probably need better internet (though mine should be fine based on numbers alone). It's really annoying to watch players skipping all over the place, but it's also nice that I can still shoot them even when they are lagged out. That's one thing Destiny has really screwed up compared to Halo. In Halo if someone lagged out and you were shooting at them, your shots still connected. In Destiny however, when a player lags you just can't kill them.

I'm sure it's a result of Destiny's netcode being focused on PvE then shoehorned into PvP. I think there are some advantages to Destiny's netcode in that players appear to move more naturally while lagged out while in titanfall everything in the game starts skipping around, but it's also harder to kill those lagged out players.

I've only had one instance in Titanfall where a lagged player killed me when I thought it shouldn't have happened. In that particular case he seemed to far away to melee me, but when I watched the kill cam I could clearly see he was a bit closer than he appeared.

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Korny, you're being insulting. I have said many good things about Destiny's art, the depth of its PvP strategy, and the grimoire writing. This thread, however, is about where Titanfall is better than Destiny. It's not about the opposite, nor is it meant to be the sum of every point for or against Destiny that could possibly exist. Furthermore, I find it hard to believe that anyone who has spent two hours or longer in Destiny's PvP could believe that lag isn't an issue there, and I find it even more preposterous that you'd think I'm just making up all of my complaints (and somehow convincing hundreds of fanboys on reddit to make similar complaints). But let's put that aside: I have posted proof of this several times, but here, just for you, just to show you how unjust you're being, I've posted them again, plus a few videos that I hadn't bothered uploading yet because I mistakenly thought that the fact of lag in Destiny was accepted universally by now.

Now I want to mention this statement of yours that "pressing the share button is too hard." That's false. What's too hard is taking time out of my gaming to trim up the clips properly, post them to youtube, wait for the uploads (so I'm not lagging while gaming), wait for youtube to decode them, copy the URL, and paste that here. Fortunately for you, I have some time off for the holidays so I can stay up late and do that rather than keep playing my games. Enjoy!

Here's an example of common lag for me. I'm blowing this guy up and he has time after I land what should be the killshot to go and kill two of my buddies. Then he dies and I get credit for the headshot. Complete bullshit.

This one is the kind of shit that makes me furious. I had the guy beat, should have OHK'd with my shotgun, followed up with melee anyway, and then he completely disappears. And then shotguns me from behind. I lose at least one round of trials every time I try just like this, and it's horseshit. I don't understand how MLG can certify this crap code.

Yes, I realize that's only one round out of, say 30, but if it ends what otherwise would have been a lighthouse run you're not losing to a better team, you're losing to shitty programming and/or cheaters. Turns hours of time into a complete waste.

And just to show this isn't a one-off, here's another.

Now this next one is a typical Destiny game for me. It's mostly fine, but there are a few places where it's absolute nonsense that I didn't get a kill and/or that there was a trade. 90% of my games fall into this category. It's pretty good most of the time, but there are still two or three complete head scratchers. Note that I've never had a single match of Titanfall that was questionable at all, let alone as questionable as this, very typical, Destiny match. This is the full match. It's only maybe three deaths that are lag-related, but those end my killstreaks, cost my team control over a point, and generally ruin the experience for me. The frustration of dying well after you shotgun a guy in the face far outweighs the fun of the other times that the game behaves properly.

And now here is the laggiest match I've ever played. I'll be honest. Watching it, the match doesn't look that bad. But it was. Not just the visible glitching, but note the guy in tether who completely disappears. Note the rocket that just sticks in the ground for a second before exploding. Note the several times I get sniped just after I move behind cover, or by someone who is still behind cover. Every time I die and there's a delay before I respawn, that's the game, not me. I always press the respawn button as soon as possible. You can also note that I've had it with lag during this game because after one particularly egregious lag-skipper kills me with about 7 minutes to go, I report all three red bar heroes on their team. Also note that I am so used to the lag delay on my own kills that several times I land what should be the killing blow and just move on even though the guy still shows as alive for a second longer (this, in particular, makes the game look not so laggy when just watching it, but the fact is that I've become so used to the lag that I assume that's what's going on). Also, yes, this is an old clip. Just wanted to show how bad the lag can be. And yes, I still do well and my team still wins. That doesn't mean the lag wasn't an issue.

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Here's an example of common lag for me. I'm blowing this guy up and he has time after I land what should be the killshot to go and kill two of my buddies. Then he dies and I get credit for the headshot. Complete bullshit.

Um... nobody killed anybody with a headshot there. Certainly not you. There was no headshot indicator in the kill feed. The only time your name comes up in the kill feed is when you legitimately get killed from behind.

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Here's an example of common lag for me. I'm blowing this guy up and he has time after I land what should be the killshot to go and kill two of my buddies. Then he dies and I get credit for the headshot. Complete bullshit.

Um... nobody killed anybody with a headshot there. Certainly not you. There was no headshot indicator in the kill feed. The only time your name comes up in the kill feed is when you legitimately get killed from behind.

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I was watching the kill feed specifically and had to leave. I do believe, however, that his two kills were legitimate. Between the initial missed shots as he comes into view and Fist of Havoc's damage resistance I don't think the headshot landed until after he hit the ground with his Super.

That he completed his Super and ran around the corner though? Yeah, that's crap. Don't think he actually killed anyone else but the amount of time and position lost following a player that should be dead can be and should be infuriating.

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This one is the kind of shit that makes me furious. I had the guy beat, should have OHK'd with my shotgun, followed up with melee anyway, and then he completely disappears. And then shotguns me from behind. I lose at least one round of trials every time I try just like this, and it's horseshit. I don't understand how MLG can certify this crap code.

It looked to me like your shotgun missed, off to the right, maybe it could have winged him. I DO agree with you on the melee though, it should have landed and resulted in some damage. The teleport immediately after causes me to blame lag for that one.

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Now this next one is a typical Destiny game for me. It's mostly fine, but there are a few places where it's absolute nonsense that I didn't get a kill and/or that there was a trade. 90% of my games fall into this category. It's pretty good most of the time, but there are still two or three complete head scratchers. Note that I've never had a single match of Titanfall that was questionable at all, let alone as questionable as this, very typical, Destiny match. This is the full match. It's only maybe three deaths that are lag-related, but those end my killstreaks, cost my team control over a point, and generally ruin the experience for me. The frustration of dying well after you shotgun a guy in the face far outweighs the fun of the other times that the game behaves properly.

I watched this one carefully. I saw only one legitimate lag loss - the golden gunner at 7:30. (It's pretty clear to me that you fired before he did, but he still got his shot off. We're talking about a third of a second, though, so maybe it's not lag, maybe it's just the low tick count between damage updates.) There's a case that MIGHT be made for the interaction at about 9:44, where you face off against two shotgunners and die without killing either one - but the first one hits you solidly in the chest, while you catch the top of his head (and take off most of his health), so I'm not sure if that's lag or just that you missed some of your pellets. Every other death, stepped through frame by frame, seems reasonable to me.

I'm not saying lag doesn't play a part; it absolutely does. I'm saying I think that sometimes you're interpreting as lag things that seem like legitimate interactions to me.

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Now this next one is a typical Destiny game for me. It's mostly fine, but there are a few places where it's absolute nonsense that I didn't get a kill and/or that there was a trade. 90% of my games fall into this category. It's pretty good most of the time, but there are still two or three complete head scratchers. Note that I've never had a single match of Titanfall that was questionable at all, let alone as questionable as this, very typical, Destiny match. This is the full match. It's only maybe three deaths that are lag-related, but those end my killstreaks, cost my team control over a point, and generally ruin the experience for me. The frustration of dying well after you shotgun a guy in the face far outweighs the fun of the other times that the game behaves properly.

I watched this one carefully. I saw only one legitimate lag loss - the golden gunner at 7:30. (It's pretty clear to me that you fired before he did, but he still got his shot off. We're talking about a third of a second, though, so maybe it's not lag, maybe it's just the low tick count between damage updates.) There's a case that MIGHT be made for the interaction at about 9:44, where you face off against two shotgunners and die without killing either one - but the first one hits you solidly in the chest, while you catch the top of his head (and take off most of his health), so I'm not sure if that's lag or just that you missed some of your pellets. Every other death, stepped through frame by frame, seems reasonable to me.

I'm not saying lag doesn't play a part; it absolutely does. I'm saying I think that sometimes you're interpreting as lag things that seem like legitimate interactions to me.

Thanks for taking the time to watch. This is just a typical game for me. Not egregious. Normal. 2-3 moments of highly questionable lag-related deaths. I should mention that Iron banner is always worse. A typical game of Titanfall (which I haven't figured out how to record more than 30 seconds of so far because xbone) doesn't have any questionable moments for me. There are the occasional "wow I didn't see that guy at all" deaths, but that's positioning and the element of surprise, not an out and out lag-related failure.

With regards to the GG lag: Bungie said they do a 30 tick for weapon damage, so 1/3 of a second means 10 ticks of lag, at least, were involved there. That's just not acceptable in a modern FPS.

I also thought the bit where I shotgunned a nightstalker in the face before his arrow fired and then he took no damage and I died was pretty lame. I've been shot out of my nightstalker animation soooo many times.

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So I've already talked about why I think Destiny's combat is less strategic than Titanfall, but there is another element that comes into play for me. Kahzgul touched on this in his original post, but Titanfall's speed and "snappy" controls create another advantage: the ability to react. Everything in Titanfall moves faster than Destiny, that much is obvious. But more significantly, I think Titanfall's movement speeds, input response time, and time to kill are better tuned to each other. Going back to Destiny today, I was shocked how often I died because I was trying to turn and maneuver my character back behind cover but he just. wouldn't. move. Even though kill times in Destiny are slightly slower, they feel too fast given the sluggish movement and reaction time of your character. I felt like I was moving through molasis the entire time. I would see an enemy come around a corner, and I'd instantly start jamming on the thumb stick, trying to make my guardian side-step behind cover... and he would eventually take the 3 or 4 steps to the right, safely behind cover, and then I'd drop dead anyway. Between the sluggish movement, iffy hit detection, and the "unreliable narrator" that is Destiny's net code, I often feel like the game creates situations where I can't possibly react quickly enough to change the outcome.

It strikes me how often I at least turn in time to see who killed me in Titanfall.

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Since when?

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Since when?

Coming from Titanfall, yes it is very slow ;)

But I don't just mean in terms of movement speed. Everything in Titanfall feels so crisp and responsive. Once you get used to it, switching back to Destiny feels sluggish and squishy by comparison. Frame rate is part of it. But that's not the only factor. I've played other 60FPS games that still don't feel quite as silky-smooth and lightning-fast in their responsiveness. I haven't played Battlefield 1 or COD IW yet, but Jeff Gertsman from Giant Bomb pointed out on their podcast that both those games feel a bit stiff and clunky compared to Titanfall, even though they all run at 60FPS. It's not a big deal at all... Spend enough time playing any game and you grow accustomed to how it feels and plays. It's just jarring after playing nothing but Titanfall for 6 weeks. The difference feels extreme.

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Titanfall is still one of the only games where "Oh what the hell" turns into "HOLY SHIT THAT WORKED" on such a consistent basis.

You think it, you can do it. Never seen anything like it in any game ever.

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I want my titan to be able to high-five another titan, though. Like, I *really* want that.

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Titanfall is still one of the only games where "Oh what the hell" turns into "HOLY SHIT THAT WORKED" on such a consistent basis.

You think it, you can do it. Never seen anything like it in any game ever.

That phenomenon is a big part of what made me love Halo so much. Using a grenade to flip a warthog over a rock and splatter the shotgun-camper hiding on the other side was not an everyday occurrence, but it felt incredible when it worked :D

Another game that had a similar dynamic (in a very different way) was Spies vs Mercs in Splinter Cell Blacklist. Not so much in terms of the physics engine, but little tactical details that make you go "hmmm... I wonder...", and then totally end up working out the way you'd hoped it would. For example, one of the gadgets the mercenaries could deploy was a land mine that would detonate and kill any spy that walked over them. The spies could equip a countermeasure though: an EMP burst that would detonate any land mines within range.
One day, I was hiding up in the rafters, watching an enemy merc patrol the hallway below me. He planted a land mine, and I noticed something during the animation: he pulled the mine out of a satchel, then pressed a button to arm it before throwing it at the wall. According to the animation, there was a split second where the mine was live while still in the merc's hands. "I wonder...", I thought to myself.
I continued to watch the merc walk around. He started to move towards a doorway that looked to me like a good spot to plant another mine. Anticipating his next move, I fired my EMP. It's not an instant attack. There's a brief charge, and then the shockwave radiates out from my character. Just as my EMP is charging, I see the merc reach back into his satchel bag. My EMP shockwave bursts out of my suit and is rushing towards him just as his finger is coming down on the button to arm the mine. He presses the button the moment before my EMP blast hits him. The mine explodes in his hands, killing him. And the 2nd merc who had just walked up beside him. :D

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Man, I wish people loved asymmetrical multiplayer more. Spies vs Merc is amazing when played with people who know what they're doing, just no one seems to like them (which is why Evolve died too).

- MacGyver10

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Man, I wish people loved asymmetrical multiplayer more. Spies vs Merc is amazing when played with people who know what they're doing, just no one seems to like them (which is why Evolve died too).

- MacGyver10

Evolve died because optimal gameplay for one of the teams was not to engage the other team, and optimal gameplay for the other team was not to have any randoms at all on your team.

I do really miss that Splinter Cell PvP. It was so, so well done. I dream of a day when a MMORPG has each class essentially playing a completely different game, like a hunter is FPS, a warrior is in a side by side fighter, the rogue is in a 3rd person stealth game, the bard is playing a rhythm game, and the mage is doing something akin to tetris. That's my dream.

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Evolve died because optimal gameplay for one of the teams was not to engage the other team, and optimal gameplay for the other team was not to have any randoms at all on your team.

I do really miss that Splinter Cell PvP. It was so, so well done. I dream of a day when a MMORPG has each class essentially playing a completely different game, like a hunter is FPS, a warrior is in a side by side fighter, the rogue is in a 3rd person stealth game, the bard is playing a rhythm game, and the mage is doing something akin to tetris. That's my dream.

Yeah, I would agree with that on Evolve. My thoughts are always that asymmetrical would thrive with random-generated maps too. Focus on the toolset on hand with your class or character, and then let them be applied to whatever map shows up.

As for your MMORPG idea, maybe Blizzard will someday retire WoW and get to working on that!

- MacGyver10

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Evolve died because optimal gameplay for one of the teams was not to engage the other team, and optimal gameplay for the other team was not to have any randoms at all on your team.

I do really miss that Splinter Cell PvP. It was so, so well done. I dream of a day when a MMORPG has each class essentially playing a completely different game, like a hunter is FPS, a warrior is in a side by side fighter, the rogue is in a 3rd person stealth game, the bard is playing a rhythm game, and the mage is doing something akin to tetris. That's my dream.

Yeah, I would agree with that on Evolve. My thoughts are always that asymmetrical would thrive with random-generated maps too. Focus on the toolset on hand with your class or character, and then let them be applied to whatever map shows up.

As for your MMORPG idea, maybe Blizzard will someday retire WoW and get to working on that!

- MacGyver10

Man, I'd love to see any game use procedurally generated maps. Remember Shining Force? When you encountered a random fight in the world map, it generated terrain for the tactics fight based on what tiles you were on and near in the world map. So great. You could find a good high ground spot and wait for the wandering monster to come to you, essentially setting an ambush.

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Titanfall is still one of the only games where "Oh what the hell" turns into "HOLY SHIT THAT WORKED" on such a consistent basis.

You think it, you can do it. Never seen anything like it in any game ever.

That phenomenon is a big part of what made me love Halo so much. Using a grenade to flip a warthog over a rock and splatter the shotgun-camper hiding on the other side was not an everyday occurrence, but it felt incredible when it worked :D

Another game that had a similar dynamic (in a very different way) was Spies vs Mercs in Splinter Cell Blacklist. Not so much in terms of the physics engine, but little tactical details that make you go "hmmm... I wonder...", and then totally end up working out the way you'd hoped it would. For example, one of the gadgets the mercenaries could deploy was a land mine that would detonate and kill any spy that walked over them. The spies could equip a countermeasure though: an EMP burst that would detonate any land mines within range.
One day, I was hiding up in the rafters, watching an enemy merc patrol the hallway below me. He planted a land mine, and I noticed something during the animation: he pulled the mine out of a satchel, then pressed a button to arm it before throwing it at the wall. According to the animation, there was a split second where the mine was live while still in the merc's hands. "I wonder...", I thought to myself.
I continued to watch the merc walk around. He started to move towards a doorway that looked to me like a good spot to plant another mine. Anticipating his next move, I fired my EMP. It's not an instant attack. There's a brief charge, and then the shockwave radiates out from my character. Just as my EMP is charging, I see the merc reach back into his satchel bag. My EMP shockwave bursts out of my suit and is rushing towards him just as his finger is coming down on the button to arm the mine. He presses the button the moment before my EMP blast hits him. The mine explodes in his hands, killing him. And the 2nd merc who had just walked up beside him. :D

That's freaking sexy as hell.

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Changing weapons takes forever and then still leaves you with a bonus, inexplicable delay before you can actually shoot the gun.

Really no idea what the heck you are talking about here. Played a good hour of Titanfall 2 and ran around shooting then played a good hour of Destiny and explicitly checked for your delay in firing my gun. Yeah, nothing. Maybe I can't fire until the gun is pointing forward but if you were able to aim down the sight then you were able to fire. Or, at least I am... Went back and retested in Titanfall 2 after that... Feels very much the same.

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Changing weapons takes forever and then still leaves you with a bonus, inexplicable delay before you can actually shoot the gun.

Really no idea what the heck you are talking about here. Played a good hour of Titanfall 2 and ran around shooting then played a good hour of Destiny and explicitly checked for your delay in firing my gun. Yeah, nothing. Maybe I can't fire until the gun is pointing forward but if you were able to aim down the sight then you were able to fire. Or, at least I am... Went back and retested in Titanfall 2 after that... Feels very much the same.

I dunno. I get "misfires" all the time in Destiny, especially after blinks.

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Yup, the blink nerf. IMHO that weapon usability delay after blinking should be better communicated visually.

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I think the point Kahzgul is making is that the delay between when you blink and when you can fire again is not visually communicated to the player. The delay itself is intentional, and probably a good idea. But visually, there is a disconnect between what you see and what you can do. Your weapon readies at the same speed it always does, it looks like it should be able to fire, but it just won't. This is the kind of little detail that comes up when tweaks and fixes are bolted on to a "finished" game after release. Ideally, the weapon-ready animation should be slowed down after a blink, so that it lines up with when you are actually able to fire.

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Haven't blinked in a while but isn't there a short delay where you are holding your weapon down as if you are running? Either way, yeah, there are some things that should be communicated that aren't. Sprint exhaustion, anyone... Back during the hayday of Crota I straight up refused to run the sword because I legitimately thought the movement stick of my 360 controller was half broken. When your player can't tell between messed up hardware and his character not sprinting because of an unseen delay timer... something is very wrong...

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ಠ_ಠ

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Haven't blinked in a while but isn't there a short delay where you are holding your weapon down as if you are running? Either way, yeah, there are some things that should be communicated that aren't. Sprint exhaustion, anyone... Back during the hayday of Crota I straight up refused to run the sword because I legitimately thought the movement stick of my 360 controller was half broken. When your player can't tell between messed up hardware and his character not sprinting because of an unseen delay timer... something is very wrong...

This is the point of my post. Titanfall communicates everything to the player very, very well, and Destiny does not. The blink weapon not working was just one example. Sprint cooldown is another. All of these player action limiting mechanics in Destiny are poorly displayed/communicated and the result is frustration because you don't know *why* the thing you did didn't work.

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The lack of any visible indication of sprint cooldown always has been, and still is, my number one complaint about Destiny. I'm at a loss as to how it is STILL in the same state. Does no one at Bungie realize how irritating it is to have to guess when you'll be able to sprint again? Do they not sit there mashing their thumbstick in frustrated confusion like me?

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The lack of any visible indication of sprint cooldown always has been, and still is, my number one complaint about Destiny. I'm at a loss as to how it is STILL in the same state. Does no one at Bungie realize how irritating it is to have to guess when you'll be able to sprint again? Do they not sit there mashing their thumbstick in frustrated confusion like me?

Right??

And then in titanfall, you have (a) infinite, on-demand sprint that you can actually set to just always be on, and for abilities with cooldowns, you have icons just like destiny's grenades that show you when the ability is ready and how far along it's cooldown it is. The dimension jump ability, for example, is a lot like blink. It stores two jumps, and has a cooldown to recharge each one, but it displays this on the screen so there's no guessing as to when you'll be able to do it again. So great!

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I wouldn't mind so much if Destiny's sprint cooldown time was always the same. If it were, I'd simply get used to the timing and eventually I'd probably stop noticing. But it always seems to take a random amount of time. It might take 2-3 seconds, or it might be available almost immediately.

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The lack of any visible indication of sprint cooldown always has been, and still is, my number one complaint about Destiny. I'm at a loss as to how it is STILL in the same state. Does no one at Bungie realize how irritating it is to have to guess when you'll be able to sprint again? Do they not sit there mashing their thumbstick in frustrated confusion like me?

Right??

And then in titanfall, you have (a) infinite, on-demand sprint that you can actually set to just always be on, and for abilities with cooldowns, you have icons just like destiny's grenades that show you when the ability is ready and how far along it's cooldown it is. The dimension jump ability, for example, is a lot like blink. It stores two jumps, and has a cooldown to recharge each one, but it displays this on the screen so there's no guessing as to when you'll be able to do it again. So great!

Don't forget audio cues. Literally everything has that, too.

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I mean, it's a different game, with different maps, and different BS.

I played the first one. I've played a little of the new one. It has it's own problems, it's own balance issues.

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This is all stuff where Destiny could and should be just as good, but isn't. The team colors thing, for example. That's such a nice touch in Titanfall, where you never accidentally shoot a teammate because you thought he was a bad guy. And then in Destiny that happens pretty often. And it's compounded by the fact that ammo is scarce in Destiny. Supers are even more scarce. And Heavy scarcer still. Sure, you get used to it, but after playing Titanfall I just think "oh, man, Destiny could be so much better."

Yes, Titanfall has some balance issues with certain weapons and/or mechs being a bit OP. But note: In Titanfall you have access to all the same weapons as everyone else, so you can use the OP guns, too, making it a more even playing field than RNGesus-based Destiny. Even so, Respawn has already made three balance changes since the game launched. Destiny rebalances weapons once every four to six months.

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Titanfall has a handful of weapons, much like Halo, and has already had 3 balance patches.

The price you pay for variety is imbalance. Destiny has lots of variation in it's guns, and not surprisingly there are some bad ones, even in ideal categories like low impact pulses or high impact shotguns.

You will always have guns that are weaker, or abilities that are not as good. While I sympathize with the added level of frustration in Destiny, where you need a good archetype plus a good roll, and RNG plays havoc with that (I still have never had a PC+1 or Matador drop), that is in part what people want. Psychologically, people want weapon rarity, and thus the randomness. I would prefer to do away with it entirely, but I'm in a minority here. I hate COD's loot box drops for the same reason.

Titanfall restricts things by making you use unleveled guns until you level up. What is worse, spending a bunch of motes of light you get just for playing to fully max out a gun from the get go, or having to fight with one hand tied behind your back just to get a different sight?

Destiny's level requirements are effectively zero. Sparks of light, or just doing the main missions will get you to max level easily. Titanfall locks you out of classes until you finish a long PVP grind.

So Destiny's only real gate is gear score, and randomness, VS Titanfall's timed lockouts.

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Titanfall has a handful of weapons, much like Halo, and has already had 3 balance patches.

lol

Handful? Four per category and, like, six or seven categories? Then half a dozen attachments per weapon, that are utterly facile to unlock and change the behavior of the weapons in subtle ways?

How big are your hands, man?

Read the rest of your post too. I'll take Titanfall's handicaps over Destiny's any day because what really makes Titanfall great is the movement of the pilots and the Titans in general. That escalation of battle, and the time game you play to get there are the thing. Discussing its guns like this are utterly missing the forest for some trees.

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Titanfall has a handful of weapons, much like Halo, and has already had 3 balance patches.

lol

Handful? Four per category and, like, six or seven categories? Then half a dozen attachments per weapon, that are utterly facile to unlock and change the behavior of the weapons in subtle ways?

How big are your hands, man?

You must not play a lot of twitch shooters. There are 20 primaries in Titanfall 2, 9 of which are Specialized weapons (grenade launchers, shotguns, snipers), leaving you with 11 Main guns that mostly have subtle differences between them (Can you tell me the difference between the CAR and R-97 SMGs? What strengths does the Volt have against the CAR? Would you use a Flatline over a G2A5?)

20 Primaries, 4 Sidearms, 4 Launchers.

In contrast, Black Ops 3 has 35(!) Primaries, 7 Sidearms, and 3 Launchers.

And the funny thing is that I can tell you what makes each weapon distinct in its subclass, and you'll often see all weapons getting decent use. In Titanfall, how many times have you run into an enemy using a Double Take Sniper? Have you ever once been killed by an R6-P Softball?

Heck, Counterstrike is a very competitive esports game, and it has 32 basic primaries.

So yeah, compared to other shooters, Titanfall 2 only has a handful of weapons, and more so because some are really niche weapons.

Read the rest of your post too. I'll take Titanfall's handicaps over Destiny's any day because what really makes Titanfall great is the movement of the pilots and the Titans in general. That escalation of battle, and the time game you play to get there are the thing. Discussing its guns like this are utterly missing the forest for some trees.

It's a shooter, but let's not discuss the shooting aspect of it, because it's not that type of game...

okay then...

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I agree with this assessment. In fact, I'll argue it's even worse that that.

Go back to Titanfall 1. The default Assault Rifle that you start with at level 1 is, by far, the best weapon in the game. There is no question whatsoever about that. Add a silencer and scope and you're deadly at every range (hip-fire accuracy was tops in close range), high ammo capacity, quick reload, snappy handling. So why even have the other guns? They were all specialized for specific roles that they excelled in. SMG for run and gun, but you sacrifice accuracy and range. LMG for suppressive fire, sniper for sniping, and so forth. If you wanted to play a specific, dedicated role, those were better guns for those roles than the jack of all trades AR you started with. Even so, why would you do that? Well, if you wanted to regenerate (prestige, basically), you had to reach certain levels of mastery with each gun - so there you have it. The extra guns were essentially challenge modes.

Now let's look at Titanfall 2. The guns are far more effective, generally, than in TF1. The "challenge mode" aspect is now really relegated to specific oddball and gimmick weapons like - as you called it - the softball. And the result is that weapons within the same class all feel very, very similar. Sure, the Hemlock is burst fire and the Devotion ramps up over time, but they still generally feel like the other guns in their category. There isn't a clear winner. So you're really talking about 4 or 5 categories of weapon when it comes to specific playstyle, and then small tweaks within those categories. Anti-Titan weapons are all unique and very different, but also are task-specific for killing titans, so they aren't as important to the overall gunplay discussion. Generally in TF2 you can play with any gun in a given category and it'll be well suited to that role.

If that were the whole game, it would be kind of boring, but because you mix that twitch shooter play with the strategy of the titan play, the game paces out very, very well. Which reminds me: Every titan feels and plays completely differently. They are an additional layer of weapon choice and complexity (class, really) and they deliver a feel that Destiny and CoD's classes also deliver, while retaining the general play of "all pilots are basically the same."

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You must not play a lot of twitch shooters.

Fair enough.

Read the rest of your post too. I'll take Titanfall's handicaps over Destiny's any day because what really makes Titanfall great is the movement of the pilots and the Titans in general. That escalation of battle, and the time game you play to get there are the thing. Discussing its guns like this are utterly missing the forest for some trees.

It's a shooter, but let's not discuss the shooting aspect of it, because it's not that type of game...

okay then...

Don't be silly. I'm not saying you can't discuss the shooting. C'mon now. But if you talk about shooting in exclusion of everything else, you're missing it.

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Titanfall has a handful of weapons, much like Halo, and has already had 3 balance patches.

The price you pay for variety is imbalance. Destiny has lots of variation in it's guns, and not surprisingly there are some bad ones, even in ideal categories like low impact pulses or high impact shotguns.

You will always have guns that are weaker, or abilities that are not as good. While I sympathize with the added level of frustration in Destiny, where you need a good archetype plus a good roll, and RNG plays havoc with that (I still have never had a PC+1 or Matador drop), that is in part what people want. Psychologically, people want weapon rarity, and thus the randomness. I would prefer to do away with it entirely, but I'm in a minority here. I hate COD's loot box drops for the same reason.

Titanfall restricts things by making you use unleveled guns until you level up. What is worse, spending a bunch of motes of light you get just for playing to fully max out a gun from the get go, or having to fight with one hand tied behind your back just to get a different sight?

Destiny's level requirements are effectively zero. Sparks of light, or just doing the main missions will get you to max level easily. Titanfall locks you out of classes until you finish a long PVP grind.

So Destiny's only real gate is gear score, and randomness, VS Titanfall's timed lockouts.

The part I don't agree with is your assessment of "playing with 1 hand tied behind your back" until you unlock new gear. The default starting gear in Titanfall 2 is just as good as any other gear in the game. You unlock more variety, not "better" stuff. I can take a default R-201 and Charge rifle into any match on any map and kick ass. In fact, I have been doing exactly that over on Xbox One, where I bought the game 5 weeks after launch and am competing against players who have already got everything unlocked. I don't feel like I'm at a disadvantage in the slightest, except for the minor and easy to unlock perks like having my weapon ready slightly faster.

Plus, if there is a gun in Titanfall 2 that you really want to use, you can unlock it at any time with in-game credits, bypassing the entire level-up climb.

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The amount you are at a disadvantage is probably somewhat the same. In Destiny it would take me a good week or two to level up from 0 and unlock a full subclass and buy a couple of Legendary vendor weapons. At that point I'd feel more or less equal to most players in normal Crucible.

In Titanfall 2, it seems like its going to take me at least that long to unlock the various guns, scopes, boosts, classes, Titans, and the alternate Titan abilities.

If anything I think Destiny has a longer level up cycle just because there are so many subclasses and because it can take a while to get a set of armor that boosts the stats you want boosted.

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The amount you are at a disadvantage is probably somewhat the same. In Destiny it would take me a good week or two to level up from 0 and unlock a full subclass and buy a couple of Legendary vendor weapons. At that point I'd feel more or less equal to most players in normal Crucible.

In Titanfall 2, it seems like its going to take me at least that long to unlock the various guns, scopes, boosts, classes, Titans, and the alternate Titan abilities.

If anything I think Destiny has a longer level up cycle just because there are so many subclasses and because it can take a while to get a set of armor that boosts the stats you want boosted.

Again, this is not taking into account the fact that you can use credits (the in-game currency, NOT a real money thing) to purchase unlocks at any time. When I started playing on Xbox I played 1 game and finished with enough credits to buy Tone. Boom. My upgrade path was 99% complete. Another couple days of playing and I had the scope I wanted for my R-201. I could have purchased other unlocks as well, but I was perfectly happy playing with the default loadouts and unlocking other perks/gear naturally because I never felt like I was at a disadvantage.

Compare that the the couple of weeks it takes to fully upgrade a single subclass in Destiny, plus the countless weeks or months it can take to get top-tier gear loadouts (depending on skill and the RNG gods).

They're worlds apart in this regard :)

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Plus, if there is a gun in Titanfall 2 that you really want to use, you can unlock it at any time with in-game credits, bypassing the entire level-up climb.

Implying that you don't have to grind for credits too...

On your first playthrough, you can't avoid the walled off gear. Sure, you can earn enough Credits to unlock one or two pieces of gear before you level up enough to unlock things through level grinding, but you still have to put the time in just for that opportunity.

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Plus, if there is a gun in Titanfall 2 that you really want to use, you can unlock it at any time with in-game credits, bypassing the entire level-up climb.

Implying that you don't have to grind for credits too...

On your first playthrough, you can't avoid the walled off gear. Sure, you can earn enough Credits to unlock one or two pieces of gear before you level up enough to unlock things through level grinding, but you still have to put the time in just for that opportunity.

Yes, you need to put in *some* time. But Titanfall is on a completely different scale than Destiny in this regard. You earn credits constantly for playing any game mode, credits are plentiful, and unlocks are cheap. I've earned 350 credits in less than a week on Xbox... Unlocking Tone cost 15 credits, I think?
And as I said in my reply to Raga's post, I jumped into my very first game on equal footing with players who have everything unlocked. They have more options at their disposal, yes. But the starting gear is every bit as strong and effective as the unlocks at the end of the progression.
It's not remotely compatible to Destiny in this regard.

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Plus, if there is a gun in Titanfall 2 that you really want to use, you can unlock it at any time with in-game credits, bypassing the entire level-up climb.

Implying that you don't have to grind for credits too...

On your first playthrough, you can't avoid the walled off gear. Sure, you can earn enough Credits to unlock one or two pieces of gear before you level up enough to unlock things through level grinding, but you still have to put the time in just for that opportunity.

Yes, you need to put in *some* time. But Titanfall is on a completely different scale than Destiny in this regard. You earn credits constantly for playing any game mode, credits are plentiful, and unlocks are cheap. I've earned 350 credits in less than a week on Xbox... Unlocking Tone cost 15 credits, I think?
And as I said in my reply to Raga's post, I jumped into my very first game on equal footing with players who have everything unlocked. They have more options at their disposal, yes. But the starting gear is every bit as strong and effective as the unlocks at the end of the progression.
It's not remotely compatible to Destiny in this regard.

Absolutely true. The R201, .45 Autopistol, and Charge Rifle are all default and all wreck shop. The fact that Cruel is great at Titanfall and could jump into the XBOX with zero unlocks and kick ass with the default weapons settles the argument in his favor utterly and completely.

If you're not doing well with the default weapons, it's your overall skill in the game that needs improving, not unlocking better gear.

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Plus, if there is a gun in Titanfall 2 that you really want to use, you can unlock it at any time with in-game credits, bypassing the entire level-up climb.

Implying that you don't have to grind for credits too...

On your first playthrough, you can't avoid the walled off gear. Sure, you can earn enough Credits to unlock one or two pieces of gear before you level up enough to unlock things through level grinding, but you still have to put the time in just for that opportunity.

Yes, you need to put in *some* time. But Titanfall is on a completely different scale than Destiny in this regard. You earn credits constantly for playing any game mode, credits are plentiful, and unlocks are cheap. I've earned 350 credits in less than a week on Xbox... Unlocking Tone cost 15 credits, I think?
And as I said in my reply to Raga's post, I jumped into my very first game on equal footing with players who have everything unlocked. They have more options at their disposal, yes. But the starting gear is every bit as strong and effective as the unlocks at the end of the progression.
It's not remotely compatible to Destiny in this regard.

Nice try at being slick by offering the cheapest item in the game to sell your narrative, man. ;)

Around a week of playing to get 350c huh?

Okay, well, say you want a better kit than the useless "Kill Report". That's going to set you back 225c.
Want a different Primary? 100c.

Well, a week of grinding, and you can only afford two Unlocks (And Tone, if for whatever reason you magically haven't hit Rank 11 to unlock it after a week). Wow, you're right, no grinding needed at all! You'll have things unlocked in no time!

Want a more useful grenade? 220c.
A different Tactical? 180c.
Huh, how about just a different shader for your pilot? 150c
An execution animation? 300c, and one can't be bought, you have to grind for it (30 successful executions).

But, but Cruel said that unlocks are cheap!

Uhhh... Well, a Pistol is only 50c! Only a few hours of grinding! "But I don't want a pistol." Then get back out there and Grind!

I've put 20 hours into the game, and I only have 548c, and the only thing that I spent credits on was the Archer, because otherwise I'd have to grind until I was level 43(!) to unlock it normally. The fact that I can do well with a Charge rifle is irrelevant. I don't like the default Charge rifle, but I have no choice but to grind just to be able to buy the gun that I do want.

For folks who aren't hardcore players at the top of the scoreboard, that grind is going to be even longer, since the speed at which you level is directly tied to your performance. So yeh, not much different than Destiny, where you're grinding for Legendary marks to buy stuff from Factions and Vendors.

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Titanfall isn't a shooter. It's a time based puzzle. Movement and shooting are the tools you use to solve the puzzle.

Discuss?

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Titanfall isn't a shooter. It's a time based puzzle. Movement and shooting are the tools you use to solve the puzzle.

Discuss?

In one sense, all shooters work this way. In another sense, puzzles require you to be able to see the entire game board in order to solve the puzzle. At no point in time is Titanfall (or any other shooter I can think of) like that. An RTS could realistically be described as a puzzle, I suppose, and some MMO boss fights definitely are entirely puzzles (that you let someone else solve and post a video of for you to copy the next night.. grrr... where's the fun in that?), but FPS games are not really like that in the PvP landscape. Destiny's raids are also puzzles to be solved, but even when you know the solution to the puzzle, if you aren't high enough light level you still can't win, so there's a RPG leveling element as well that is semi-RNG based and out of your hands... Still puzzle-esque, imo.

Anyway, I'd agree that the slower an FPS game plays, the more it plays like a puzzle rather than a twitch shooter.

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Titanfall isn't a shooter. It's a time based puzzle. Movement and shooting are the tools you use to solve the puzzle.

Discuss?

In one sense, all shooters work this way. In another sense, puzzles require you to be able to see the entire game board in order to solve the puzzle. At no point in time is Titanfall (or any other shooter I can think of) like that. An RTS could realistically be described as a puzzle, I suppose, and some MMO boss fights definitely are entirely puzzles (that you let someone else solve and post a video of for you to copy the next night.. grrr... where's the fun in that?), but FPS games are not really like that in the PvP landscape. Destiny's raids are also puzzles to be solved, but even when you know the solution to the puzzle, if you aren't high enough light level you still can't win, so there's a RPG leveling element as well that is semi-RNG based and out of your hands... Still puzzle-esque, imo.

Anyway, I'd agree that the slower an FPS game plays, the more it plays like a puzzle rather than a twitch shooter.

Then maybe I'll say it another way: to do well in Titanfall, you must be conscious of first the amount of time required to your next Titan and then once you have your Titan the amount of time until your next core. To win, you must always be doing things to achieve those goals. If you're not shooting something, even if you're not killing it, you're on your way to losing.

I mean, duh, right? But it feels focused in a way other games aren't. Maybe I don't play enough twitch shooters, like Korny said, because I remember kill streaks and stuff in MW2 kind of working this way.

But I dunno. It's just with Titanfall... something that stands out in my mind, screaming at me.

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Titanfall isn't a shooter. It's a time based puzzle. Movement and shooting are the tools you use to solve the puzzle.

Discuss?

In one sense, all shooters work this way. In another sense, puzzles require you to be able to see the entire game board in order to solve the puzzle. At no point in time is Titanfall (or any other shooter I can think of) like that. An RTS could realistically be described as a puzzle, I suppose, and some MMO boss fights definitely are entirely puzzles (that you let someone else solve and post a video of for you to copy the next night.. grrr... where's the fun in that?), but FPS games are not really like that in the PvP landscape. Destiny's raids are also puzzles to be solved, but even when you know the solution to the puzzle, if you aren't high enough light level you still can't win, so there's a RPG leveling element as well that is semi-RNG based and out of your hands... Still puzzle-esque, imo.

Anyway, I'd agree that the slower an FPS game plays, the more it plays like a puzzle rather than a twitch shooter.

Then maybe I'll say it another way: to do well in Titanfall, you must be conscious of first the amount of time required to your next Titan and then once you have your Titan the amount of time until your next core. To win, you must always be doing things to achieve those goals. If you're not shooting something, even if you're not killing it, you're on your way to losing.

I mean, duh, right? But it feels focused in a way other games aren't. Maybe I don't play enough twitch shooters, like Korny said, because I remember kill streaks and stuff in MW2 kind of working this way.

But I dunno. It's just with Titanfall... something that stands out in my mind, screaming at me.

It's the positive reinforcement loop. You are rewarded for doing the thing you want to be doing: fighting.

I've actually spent an inordinate amount of time studying this phenomenon in video games. Like, way too much time. It all comes back to mana. Prepare for a crazy statement: Mana sucks as a game mechanic. It's a negative feedback loop. The entire point of a limited mana supply is to force players to think about what they will do with that resource. Do I use it all for one big fireball? Or cast Magic Missiles five times instead? Either way, once you're out of mana, you're done. Casting those big spells is fun, but now they've been cast and you're stuck with whatever crap you have when you're out of mana. A dagger? I dunno. Anyway, mana is a limited resource and, as such, it is a limiting resource when it comes to gameplay. The game becomes less about the actual goals of the game (shooting a thing) and more about managing your resource. It's just not fun.

Cue the positive reinforcement feedback loop mechanic. Instead of starting with a full bar of mana and draining it as you use your abilities, you start with an empty bar and fill it by using your abilities. The more effective you are in combat, the faster you fill your bar. Destiny does this with supers, Titanfall does it with Titans and Cores, and good old Diablo 2 did it with berserker rage. Playing the game to the hilt not only maximizes your damage, but also maximizes your rewards. It's awesome.

Now the actual result on gameplay is very similar. You get a fireball once every 10 seconds. But the difference is that with mana, you cast your fireball and then go hide for 10 seconds while you build more mana, and with positive reinforcement you cast a fireball and then continue whipping the living snot out of everyone for the next 10 seconds until - oh YES - you earn another fireball. It's just more fun, plain and simple.

If only more games focused on encouraging and rewarding players for doing what they want to do instead of forcing them to spend time in activities they don't want to do in order to get the things they need for the activity they want to do later.

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It's the positive reinforcement loop. You are rewarded for doing the thing you want to be doing: fighting.

That's the rub; Titanfall's must massage my brain just so.

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We don't actually talk about general game design theory in this forum too often, which is a shame, because I have an unhealthy obsession with it.

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We don't actually talk about general game design theory in this forum too often, which is a shame, because I have a healthy obsession with it.

Fixed that for you. I enjoy your posts very much.

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I was having a conversation with someone about alternatives to mana mechanics a while ago. You can do some really interesting things to mana with a little tweaking, but sadly very few bother.

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I was having a conversation with someone about alternatives to mana mechanics a while ago. You can do some really interesting things to mana with a little tweaking, but sadly very few bother.

I think it boils down to two things:

1. Does the limitation add fun and complexity?
2. Is there a way to fundamentally bypass the limitation?

You want the answer to be yes, and no respectively.

I think something like Diablo 2 fails on both parts. If you are a sorceress, you magic is basically the only way to damage the enemy, and so essentially functions like your attack. Run out of mana, and you have no options. Thus it fails number 1. It can be bypassed as well. Mana potions are cheap and plentiful (after the 1.10 patch), and most players use mana steal or mana on kill items. You reach the point where you never think about your mana because you can just always use a spell.

Sadly most 'mana' in games functions the same way.

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I would like you to look at Vanquish. Vanquish has a 'mana' bar in the form of your suit's temperature. It also functions as a pseudo life bar, in the sense that when your suit is hot your are more vulnerable. Far from slowing down or ruining the combat, it serves the game really well.

Your meter depletes when you:
Dash
Dodge
Enter 'bullet time'
Perform a melee attack

The meter also recharges fairly quickly, on the level of your shields in Halo.

It works tremendously well because each move is very useful and very powerful, but you become more vulnerable when you use them. In particular, your melee attack is extremely effective, but it instantly drains your meter and automatically overheats your suit. So using it is risk / reward. You can use your melee attack, but can no longer dash out of harms way for example, and you are temporarily very weak. If you could use these moves with no limitation, and no downside, then combat would be far less interesting.

'Mana' can rule.

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Then maybe I'll say it another way: to do well in Titanfall, you must be conscious of first the amount of time required to your next Titan and then once you have your Titan the amount of time until your next core. To win, you must always be doing things to achieve those goals. If you're not shooting something, even if you're not killing it, you're on your way to losing.

I mean, duh, right? But it feels focused in a way other games aren't. Maybe I don't play enough twitch shooters, like Korny said, because I remember kill streaks and stuff in MW2 kind of working this way.

But I dunno. It's just with Titanfall... something that stands out in my mind, screaming at me.

I know what you're talking about.

In a typical twitch shooter, there are a number of goals that you work towards within each match.

Let's use Black Ops 3 as an example.

If you do well in one Life, you can earn Scorestreaks. You get up to three (of increasing point requirements), and earning them is not specifically tied to kills. Playing the Objective (say, a Flag Capture) will usually net you one instantly. The points you get for using it help you work towards the next one, but if you die, progress resets.

If you do well over a period of time (dying is fine), you earn a Specialist ability (think Destiny's Supers). A Specialist ability can be either a unique gameplay effect (i.e. deploying a number of decoy holograms), or a character-specific weapon (an arm-mounted Gatling Gun). Using these special abilities successfully grants you plenty of points for your next Scorestreak, which in turn can grant you points for your next Specialist ability.

You're always working towards something, and that's half the fun, so even if you're not the best at killing with guns, you've got other things to focus on that help you have fun.

Titanfall does this well, too, although there's not much reward for doing well in a single life, which helps reduce the stress of feeling like you can't afford to die, which might be too much for some folks and tends to lead to more conservative gameplay, rather than focusing on getting into the fray.

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Unlike Destiny with no killcams so you can't see the amazing shot through seven walls and around a corner to kill you in the toe.

In all seriousness, what if killcams could be implemented in such a way that they showed the way things actually looked to the other player? Would be interesting for people to see what those "magic" lag shots looked like from the other side.

No one should be killable before they're controllable.

This isn't just a Destiny problem, either. One of the biggest frustrations with Mass Effect 3's co-op multiplayer is that sometimes when a fallen player is revived, they can be insta-killed before they've actually gotten up and regained control of their movement.

Note: despite its many flaws, that game is outstanding, and I'm glad it's back for a while.

I am excited for SRL's return though. Last time around it was glorious, and I enjoyed it even when losing (which I always did because one of my friends is like top 100 in the world or some nonsense. How he finishes 8 seconds faster than me with the same bike is beyond my ken).

It's all about the lines.

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Unlike Destiny with no killcams so you can't see the amazing shot through seven walls and around a corner to kill you in the toe.

In all seriousness, what if killcams could be implemented in such a way that they showed the way things actually looked to the other player? Would be interesting for people to see what those "magic" lag shots looked like from the other side.

This is a big reason why I'd like to see them. I want to know what the other player saw.

No one should be killable before they're controllable.

This isn't just a Destiny problem, either. One of the biggest frustrations with Mass Effect 3's co-op multiplayer is that sometimes when a fallen player is revived, they can be insta-killed before they've actually gotten up and regained control of their movement.

Note: despite its many flaws, that game is outstanding, and I'm glad it's back for a while.

ME3's multiplayer is some of the best video gaming I've ever experienced in my entire life. Love, love, LOVE it.

I am excited for SRL's return though. Last time around it was glorious, and I enjoyed it even when losing (which I always did because one of my friends is like top 100 in the world or some nonsense. How he finishes 8 seconds faster than me with the same bike is beyond my ken).

It's all about the lines.

I'm so damn excited.

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