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Alright, now back to what REALLY matters... (Gaming)

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Saturday, April 01, 2017, 19:02 (2581 days ago)


-HORIZON ZERO DAWN-

No wait! This is relevant to Destiny!

Kotaku recently put out an article where lead writer John Gonzalez (Fallout:NV. Shadow of Mordor) describes the hundreds of hours spent writing and rewriting the plot of HZD to accomplish several goals before writing a single line of dialogue.

“The very elements that made its high-level concept enthralling... contradicted each other in a way that demanded explanation. All told, that meant we needed to a) imagine an entire history for this strange new world, b) create a character who’d be compelling to play, c) give her a deeply personal reason to go questing across the world, d) make sure her personal quest put her on a collision course with the biggest mysteries of the world, and e) pace out the (quite intricate) answers to those mysteries so each revelation left players wanting more, driving them on to the end of the game,”

I think pretty much anyone who has played the game all the way through will agree that they succeeded in accomplishing all of those goals. But let's look at how Bungie's writing on Destiny fell a bit short on each.

a) imagine an entire history for this strange new world

Outside of Grimoire entries, we aren't really told anything about the world. There was a "Golden Age", then a "Collapse", but neither of these two is explored in any fashion. We don't know why the world is the way it is, or what it even looks like outside of the few patrol spaces (and the occasional Crucible map). Heck, the Last City has some fascinating design elements (districts separated by wealth and walls) that we never see anything of outside of rooftops. All very interesting things, but if not explored, then why should we be invested in this world?
In Yahtzee's review of HZD, he points out a number of burning questions that he has about the game's world when it starts... only to acknowledge that all of these questions are given solid answers and explanations by the time the credits roll. Contrast that with Destiny, which never finds the time to explain so much as why it doesn't have the time to explain.

b) Create a character who’d be compelling to play

Our Guardians are a blank slate, sure... But what motivates them (besides the promise of Loot™)? We aren't really ever given a choice or voice in the matter. We are told that we've been dead for a long time, but are now alive and have to serve the Vanguard. Why? This remains completely unexplored (despite the grimoire and an easter egg implying that there are many Guardians who declined this lifestyle), and our Guardians are essentially just fine with running off and obeying orders for no reason.

According to Gonzalez, some of the tougher scenes to write were the early segments of the game, when Horizon has to convince the player to care about Aloy.

“Writing (and re-writing, and re-writing) Aloy’s childhood scenes was hard work, but it seems to have paid off, because I find it impossible to watch and play those scenes without getting behind her 100%".
I think that's a big part where Destiny stumbled. Sure, our Guardian is suposed to be one of countless heroes, but from our perspective, we're getting far more done than other Guardians, and yet, we aren't really given much reason to get behind our actions, no believable motivation to be willing to risk our lives and possibly die for something as simple as obtaining an FTL drive. I'd like a sense of urgency and reason to care about my Guardian's actions in D2.


c) Give her a deeply personal reason to go questing across the world

Tying into the last point, our Guardian doesn't really have much of a personal stake in the events that transpire. Again, we're never given a reason why our Guardian does the things that he does. In HZD, Aloy starts off with a specific goal from her childhood. Every time that the story takes a turn, it's tied to something that has directly affected Aloy, or it's something that she can put her personal skills to use in (often because she has skills or freedoms that those around her don't have). In Destiny, we are simply magic zombies, and so we go and run errands for other, more important people who can't be bothered. What is our personal motivation? The aforementioned loot? The joy of collecting spinmetal?
Our Guardian is the most boring character in the whole game, and yet, we have to care about them...

d) Make sure her personal quest put her on a collision course with the biggest mysteries of the world

While we do tend to run into the biggest threats to the world, we don't really do so as part of a personal quest. The Dark Below? Eris is standing in the Tower, handing out quests to anyone who cares. House of Wolves? We owe Mara for the small favor that she did for us earlier. TTK? We're simply running an errand. Nothing is really a direct result of us doing anything for ourselves, because we're not ever really doing anything for ourselves (other than grinding for loot).
In HZD, everything from Aloy's actions as a child to the conversations that she has with people ends up affecting her directly, and it pushes the story forward in a believable manner, and before you know it, she's tackling threats much bigger than herself, but also directly tied to her in a personal way. Our Guardians are supposed to "become legend", and yet, it all feels like we're running errands for the established legends, and often as part of a group.


e) Pace out the (quite intricate) answers to those mysteries so each revelation left players wanting more, driving them on to the end of the game.

Think about Vanilla Destiny. Do you remember what happened in each mission between your Guardian waking up and the destruction of the Black Garden heart? Were you eager to jump into the next story mission to further flesh out the revelations of the one you just completed? When the game ended, did you have a better understanding of anything in the world? Were you provided with a satisfying number of answers after defeating Oryx or the SIVA core?
Odds are you still don't know hardly anything about the world of Destiny if you haven't delved into Raga's Bite-sized Backstories or the Grimoire, but our direct actions fail to give us any answers to the questions that we have throughout a level (especially the Venus levels). Even Rise of Iron feels like the game thinks it's giving us more answers than it is, with vague bits of exposition (oxymoron?) given to us through chatter between each mission objective.

Throughout the Horizon map, the player can discover something called “Vantages,” which are cached messages recorded in the old world. Once activated, the player can hear a story that is appended with a photograph that shows what a locale used to look like, before it was overtaken by nature.

“Looking beyond the main story, the narrative told by the Vantages also meant a lot to me,” Gonzalez said. “My mother has been in poor health for some time, and nearly died last fall. Taken literally, the mother-son relationship described in the Vantages story bears no resemblance at all to our relationship, but my aim was to portray a more universal bond of love."

In HZD, there are significant answers given not just at each stage of the story, but even sidequests help flesh out the world and characters, often giving us closure or a better understanding of the people and the world, and at least one sidequest can have very different dialogue if you start it after you beat the game, since you've gained plenty of knowledge that you didn't have before..
And you don't even have to beeline to the end to get answers. Sammy has been avoiding the story missions and doing all of the side missions and collectibles (which all flesh out the world as well) in each area, and even by focusing exclusively on these side stories, she's been getting more and more invested in the world and the people that inhabit it. For example, Nil is her favorite side character in the game, and she went into great detail explaining her theories on him. Simply through her interactions, she learned about the Carja region (that she had yet to explore) and of specific places within that region. When she finally visited some of the locations that Nil mentioned, she had unique dialogue options that I never did, since I played through the entire game without ever running into him, so it's neat to see that I have more reasons to explore and more opportunities to learn about the world and its mysteries.
Not only that, but despite the fact that there are still plenty of questions that remain unanswered by the time the credits roll in Horizon, we've received enough to give us a satisfying conclusion to the game, rather than having a ton of cliffhangers or vague plot threads. We know the threats that remain, we know what's coming, and yet, there's plenty to figure out before we get there, so we have plenty to do while we wait for the answers to those questions...
Hopefully Bungie can give us the same desire to go out and explore in D2.



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A separate article on Karakter's contributions to the design of the Nora region in HZD reminded me of one big issue that I had with Destiny, and it's that the playspaces don't feel real. They feel like contained playspaces devoid of any life or signs that they were once realistically filled with people. While not reaching Witcher 3 levels of believable world layouts, Horizon does a great job with each region's cultures and ruins, making former cities feel believable, and part of this is through a world design based on deconstruction and reconstruction.

First, the artists designed a realistic town,
[image]

then they let disaster strike,
[image]

then they let the post-apocalypse happen,
[image]

then they finally let nature reclaim the world, which was then modeled into the game and populating it with wildlife and machines.
[image]
[image]

It's a really neat approach that I would like to see more of, especially if we get to explore larger cities in D2.



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And lastly, I wanted to take this opportunity to show off a some more of my 4K screenshots. Have I mentioned that I love the photo mode in this game?

[image][image][image][image][image][image][image][image][image][image][image][image][image][image][image][image][image][image][image][image][image][image][image][image][image][image][image][image][image][image][image][image]



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Here's a set of photos highlighting the importance of lighting (time-of-day slider)...

Original:
[image]

Angle and lighting changes:
[image][image][image][image][image]



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And lastly, this is completely OT, but if anyone wants some 4k Last of Us screenshots, I took a few test ones for Wallpapers and such. Might take more as I play through the game:

[image][image][image][image][image][image][image]

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Wow. That... is alot of pictures. 56k warning. :P

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Saturday, April 01, 2017, 23:35 (2581 days ago) @ Korny

- No text -

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My phone freezes when I load it so I am replying here.

by Funkmon @, Sunday, April 02, 2017, 19:52 (2580 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

I don't find this applicable in any way to Destiny.

We did learn more about the world after every mission; even if it wasn't much. We are becoming a legend. We can't have any real character or personality as it's an MMO.

I have issues with the story being stupid just like anyone, but this is like comparing Tetris to Mario and complaining it doesn't have any characters or bad guys.

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My phone freezes when I load it so I am replying here.

by cheapLEY @, Sunday, April 02, 2017, 22:21 (2580 days ago) @ Funkmon

I have issues with the story being stupid just like anyone, but this is like comparing Tetris to Mario and complaining it doesn't have any characters or bad guys.

I don't think that's true at all. A rich story and world was one of the advertised features of Destiny. If you count the Grimoire as part of the package, then sure, I guess maybe it technically delivered that. It pretty undeniably didn't deliver that in the actual game, though.

I think looking at how Horizon tackled telling it's story is a totally valid discussion that can be applied to Destiny. Sure, obviously using the Horizon writer's stated goals to evaluate Destiny isn't completely applicable, as those weren't the stated goals of Destiny's writers, but their goals were apparently fuck all, so we have to start somewhere.

Presenting and actual story that I give one iota about is at the top of my wishlist for Destiny 2, so discussing a game that did that very well is a totally valid comparison.

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Environment Art Creation Note

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Sunday, April 02, 2017, 00:12 (2581 days ago) @ Korny

=================================================================
A separate article on Karakter's contributions to the design of the Nora region in HZD reminded me of one big issue that I had with Destiny, and it's that the playspaces don't feel real. They feel like contained playspaces devoid of any life or signs that they were once realistically filled with people. While not reaching Witcher 3 levels of believable world layouts, Horizon does a great job with each region's cultures and ruins, making former cities feel believable, and part of this is through a world design based on deconstruction and reconstruction.

First, the artists designed a realistic town,
[images]
then they let disaster strike,
[images]
then they finally let nature reclaim the world, which was then modeled into the game and populating it with wildlife and machines.
[images]
It's a really neat approach that I would like to see more of, especially if we get to explore larger cities in D2.
=================================================================

Alright. The method described here is as far as I know, the standard way a destroyed environment is made, and it has been that way for a while. It's far easier to add en-mass then subtract, then to try and make it all in one go. In Zbrush/Mudbox, which is the main digital sculpting tool that is used to make the highpoly detail, those details are made from a clean smooth state. When things are blocked out, it's done so in a clean state. The dirty, rough, crunched, dilapidated detail is the stuff that is made after the level designers have said GO.

If the issue is the play space, then that is a level design thing. If it is how it looks, that is an environment art thing. Keep note, I would say it is a fairly safe bet that a large amount of what we see today is only there because it survived the cut and madness of the original Destiny cycle. Hopefully, the same madness hasn't and won't happen again. That doesn't mean there won't be cuts of course, there are always cuts because there is never enough time.

Just wanted to make that note. ^_^

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+1

by Kahzgul, Sunday, April 02, 2017, 05:35 (2581 days ago) @ Korny

You've summed up very nicely exactly what's been bothering me with regards to the Destiny story and character (or lack thereof). The (mostly) silent protagonist is also problematic.

Back to HZD:

man, those screenshots are great! I find your choice of armor interesting. I spent the entire game in either the stealth armor (95% of the game) or the very customizable silks (unavoidable combats only). Just today, I got the shield weaver and was soooo disappointed that the actual outfit looks nothing like what you see before you get it. Still looks neat, but not nearly as neat as what I thought I was getting. I must say, I'm also really happy that I was able to get it without spoilers or a walkthru.

The game's plot unfolds beautifully and is just so well done. The second half (maybe more?) of the game, every mission has felt like "is this the last one? Oh wow there's more!" It's great. I want to just keep going and going and going with this game, and that real sense of a living, vibrant world is a big part of what's driving it.

One question: Can you complete the War Bow tutorial quests? I don't seem able to get credit for shooting ice arrows or shock arrows into their respective canisters, and I've tried everything. None of the other tutorials gave me any issues.

I'm so excited to play through again on the highest difficulty, which is a pretty rare feeling for me these days.

Anyone with a PS4 who hasn't picked this game up, 10/10 definitely playing again. GotY contender for sure.

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+1

by cheapLEY @, Sunday, April 02, 2017, 13:55 (2580 days ago) @ Kahzgul

man, those screenshots are great! I find your choice of armor interesting. I spent the entire game in either the stealth armor (95% of the game) or the very customizable silks (unavoidable combats only). Just today, I got the shield weaver and was soooo disappointed that the actual outfit looks nothing like what you see before you get it. Still looks neat, but not nearly as neat as what I thought I was getting. I must say, I'm also really happy that I was able to get it without spoilers or a walkthru.

I pretty much always wore some variant of the Carja Blazon armor, just because I think it was the best looking armor. I honestly never noticed the stealth armor actually helping all that much--if you're in tall grass, you're in tall grass and that just plain makes you invisible. I also like the Banuk Ice Hunter sets quite a bit.

Those screens are gorgeous Korny. Horizon Zero Dawn is simultaneously the game that lets me know that I don't need a PS4 Pro and the game that is selling me on getting one. It's just so good looking.

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+1

by Kahzgul, Sunday, April 02, 2017, 19:00 (2580 days ago) @ cheapLEY

man, those screenshots are great! I find your choice of armor interesting. I spent the entire game in either the stealth armor (95% of the game) or the very customizable silks (unavoidable combats only). Just today, I got the shield weaver and was soooo disappointed that the actual outfit looks nothing like what you see before you get it. Still looks neat, but not nearly as neat as what I thought I was getting. I must say, I'm also really happy that I was able to get it without spoilers or a walkthru.


I pretty much always wore some variant of the Carja Blazon armor, just because I think it was the best looking armor. I honestly never noticed the stealth armor actually helping all that much--if you're in tall grass, you're in tall grass and that just plain makes you invisible. I also like the Banuk Ice Hunter sets quite a bit.

Stealth armor with two stealth mods makes it so you walking makes no noise and sprinting is only 1 bar of noise. You can crouch walk right up to any enemy from behind and they won't see or hear you so you can stealth kill from out in the open. Easily sprint past stormbirds and they'll never know you were there, etc.. Very effective once you complete all of the cauldrons. No long grass needed!


Those screens are gorgeous Korny. Horizon Zero Dawn is simultaneously the game that lets me know that I don't need a PS4 Pro and the game that is selling me on getting one. It's just so good looking.

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+1

by cheapLEY @, Sunday, April 02, 2017, 21:11 (2580 days ago) @ Kahzgul

Stealth armor with two stealth mods makes it so you walking makes no noise and sprinting is only 1 bar of noise. You can crouch walk right up to any enemy from behind and they won't see or hear you so you can stealth kill from out in the open. Easily sprint past stormbirds and they'll never know you were there, etc.. Very effective once you complete all of the cauldrons. No long grass needed!

I figured it was something like. That's just sort of counter to how I play the game (or how I would want to). I sort of like the difficulty of not being able to just run around where ever I want.

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+1

by Kahzgul, Monday, April 03, 2017, 00:39 (2580 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Stealth armor with two stealth mods makes it so you walking makes no noise and sprinting is only 1 bar of noise. You can crouch walk right up to any enemy from behind and they won't see or hear you so you can stealth kill from out in the open. Easily sprint past stormbirds and they'll never know you were there, etc.. Very effective once you complete all of the cauldrons. No long grass needed!


I figured it was something like. That's just sort of counter to how I play the game (or how I would want to). I sort of like the difficulty of not being able to just run around where ever I want.

I played about 60% of the game without ever using fast travel. Stealth was very important, especially when I ran out of wood. Which seriously happened.

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+1

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Sunday, April 02, 2017, 14:02 (2580 days ago) @ Kahzgul

You've summed up very nicely exactly what's been bothering me with regards to the Destiny story and character (or lack thereof). The (mostly) silent protagonist is also problematic.

Back to HZD:

man, those screenshots are great! I find your choice of armor interesting. I spent the entire game in either the stealth armor (95% of the game) or the very customizable silks (unavoidable combats only). Just today, I got the shield weaver and was soooo disappointed that the actual outfit looks nothing like what you see before you get it. Still looks neat, but not nearly as neat as what I thought I was getting. I must say, I'm also really happy that I was able to get it without spoilers or a walkthru.

Thanks!
As far as armor choice goes, I like the Shadow Stalwart Heavy because not only does it look great, it has three mod slots like the Silks outfit, and it also protects against sonic/blinding effects.
That said, my armor choice depends on region. I won't be wearing the Banuk Ice Hunter gear while exploring the Carja jungles, for example (despite the higher number of Glinthawks). Makes for better pictures when you're dressed appropriately, I think.

The game's plot unfolds beautifully and is just so well done. The second half (maybe more?) of the game, every mission has felt like "is this the last one? Oh wow there's more!" It's great. I want to just keep going and going and going with this game, and that real sense of a living, vibrant world is a big part of what's driving it.

Yeah. I like that people react to the things that you have accomplished along the way as well. It's a small thing, but it definitely gives you the sense that your actions have weight, and that you're actually building a legend (although credit for your actions is sometimes given to the wrong people).


One question: Can you complete the War Bow tutorial quests? I don't seem able to get credit for shooting ice arrows or shock arrows into their respective canisters, and I've tried everything. None of the other tutorials gave me any issues.

Make sure that you're using the right weapon. If it says War Bow, make sure that you're not using a Carja War Bow, or the Hunting Lodge War Bow. The tutorials are for specific weapons, so you probably upgraded your War Bow and sold the default one before doing the Tutorial.


I'm so excited to play through again on the highest difficulty, which is a pretty rare feeling for me these days.

Good luck with the Corrupted Rockbreakers! That was easily the toughest part of the game for me.


Anyone with a PS4 who hasn't picked this game up, 10/10 definitely playing again. GotY contender for sure.

+1

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+1

by cheapLEY @, Sunday, April 02, 2017, 14:30 (2580 days ago) @ Korny

Yeah. I like that people react to the things that you have accomplished along the way as well. It's a small thing, but it definitely gives you the sense that your actions have weight, and that you're actually building a legend (although credit for your actions is sometimes given to the wrong people).

Did you ever visit Rost's grave? I thought that was a neat little touch, and I didn't discover it until I was nearly finished with the game.

Good luck with the Corrupted Rockbreakers! That was easily the toughest part of the game for me.

+1. Intense fight for sure. The two Thunderjaw fight near a Metal Flower was pretty close, though.

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+1

by Kahzgul, Sunday, April 02, 2017, 18:59 (2580 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Yeah. I like that people react to the things that you have accomplished along the way as well. It's a small thing, but it definitely gives you the sense that your actions have weight, and that you're actually building a legend (although credit for your actions is sometimes given to the wrong people).


Did you ever visit Rost's grave? I thought that was a neat little touch, and I didn't discover it until I was nearly finished with the game.

You can go back over and over and you'll tell him different stuff each time based on how far into the game you are, too.

Good luck with the Corrupted Rockbreakers! That was easily the toughest part of the game for me.


+1. Intense fight for sure. The two Thunderjaw fight near a Metal Flower was pretty close, though.

Redmaw is a pretty rough fight as well.

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+1

by cheapLEY @, Sunday, April 02, 2017, 21:09 (2580 days ago) @ Kahzgul

Redmaw is a pretty rough fight as well.

Yeah, it's definitely one my favorite moments. I really hope the sequel leans into that aspect. I'd like to see a Redmaw equivalent for every machine type. Some Legendary version of each type just wondering around.

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+1

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Sunday, April 02, 2017, 22:51 (2580 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Redmaw is a pretty rough fight as well.


Yeah, it's definitely one my favorite moments. I really hope the sequel leans into that aspect. I'd like to see a Redmaw equivalent for every machine type. Some Legendary version of each type just wondering around.

Don't forget, with Hephaestus running amuck, and the Derangement getting worse, bigger and badder machines aren't off the table, especially not meaner versions of the existing machines.... I'm pretty stoked!

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+1

by Kahzgul, Sunday, April 02, 2017, 18:58 (2580 days ago) @ Korny

You've summed up very nicely exactly what's been bothering me with regards to the Destiny story and character (or lack thereof). The (mostly) silent protagonist is also problematic.

Back to HZD:

man, those screenshots are great! I find your choice of armor interesting. I spent the entire game in either the stealth armor (95% of the game) or the very customizable silks (unavoidable combats only). Just today, I got the shield weaver and was soooo disappointed that the actual outfit looks nothing like what you see before you get it. Still looks neat, but not nearly as neat as what I thought I was getting. I must say, I'm also really happy that I was able to get it without spoilers or a walkthru.


Thanks!
As far as armor choice goes, I like the Shadow Stalwart Heavy because not only does it look great, it has three mod slots like the Silks outfit, and it also protects against sonic/blinding effects.

Hmm.. I haven't found that one yet. More to find! Yay!

That said, my armor choice depends on region. I won't be wearing the Banuk Ice Hunter gear while exploring the Carja jungles, for example (despite the higher number of Glinthawks). Makes for better pictures when you're dressed appropriately, I think.

The game's plot unfolds beautifully and is just so well done. The second half (maybe more?) of the game, every mission has felt like "is this the last one? Oh wow there's more!" It's great. I want to just keep going and going and going with this game, and that real sense of a living, vibrant world is a big part of what's driving it.


Yeah. I like that people react to the things that you have accomplished along the way as well. It's a small thing, but it definitely gives you the sense that your actions have weight, and that you're actually building a legend (although credit for your actions is sometimes given to the wrong people).


One question: Can you complete the War Bow tutorial quests? I don't seem able to get credit for shooting ice arrows or shock arrows into their respective canisters, and I've tried everything. None of the other tutorials gave me any issues.


Make sure that you're using the right weapon. If it says War Bow, make sure that you're not using a Carja War Bow, or the Hunting Lodge War Bow. The tutorials are for specific weapons, so you probably upgraded your War Bow and sold the default one before doing the Tutorial.

I haven't had this problem with any other weapon (I completed all ropecaster quests using the lodge ropecaster, for example). But hey, it's worth checking.


I'm so excited to play through again on the highest difficulty, which is a pretty rare feeling for me these days.


Good luck with the Corrupted Rockbreakers! That was easily the toughest part of the game for me.

Haha, thanks. I've found a really good strat for rockbreakers on hard, so hopefully it works well on normal, too. Ice Rattler is best rattler!


Anyone with a PS4 who hasn't picked this game up, 10/10 definitely playing again. GotY contender for sure.


+1

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Well, I did it... All Trophies Acquired!

by Kahzgul, Monday, April 03, 2017, 04:56 (2580 days ago) @ Korny

Thank goodness you don't need to collect all of the datapoints to complete them... I'd have never done it (I'm surprised I'm missing as few as I am... 4 audio, 4 hologram, only 2 quest-related text ones, and then about 50 text-world ones. I did get all of the machine datapoints (obviously - you get one each time you find a longneck), and I'm only missing 6 scanned glyphs.

The only one I needed spoilers for (actually the only one I didn't naturally complete just by playing the game) was the one to knock over all 23 target dummies. Everything else was kind of a natural progression for me, which was really nice.

I suppose it was a little disappointing that the "collections" you can find only give random mods, generally ones far worse than what you found just during the course of completing said collections. And I'm sad I never got to ride a T-Rex. I hope that's in the sequel :) I did jump on a Thunderjaw's back once; that ended... poorly.

Anyway, super great game; time for that playthrough on the hardest setting!

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