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Star Wars: The Last Jedi Trailer (Off-Topic)

by cheapLEY @, Interstate 8, Friday, April 14, 2017, 12:31 (43 days ago)

Yeah, another off-topic post, but it has to be done. Looks pretty great. I loved Episode 7, and disliked Rogue One, so it'll be interesting to see how this turns out.

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So I'm not the only one who disliked Rogue One!

by Blackt1g3r @, Kansas City, MO, Friday, April 14, 2017, 12:43 (43 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I was very surprised to find I didn't like Rogue One that much. Maybe I was just expecting too much from it?

I'm still reserving judgement on episode VII until I get an idea of where they are going with things in episode VIII. So far I like what I'm seeing, and I like how this teaser riffs on the episode VII teaser.

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So I'm not the only one who disliked Rogue One!

by CruelLEGACEY ⌂ @, Toronto, Friday, April 14, 2017, 13:21 (43 days ago) @ Blackt1g3r

I was very surprised to find I didn't like Rogue One that much. Maybe I was just expecting too much from it?

I'm still reserving judgement on episode VII until I get an idea of where they are going with things in episode VIII. So far I like what I'm seeing, and I like how this teaser riffs on the episode VII teaser.

Same here. I didn't really like Rogue One at all. It's very well made, but the whole thing just felt like lame fan-fiction to me.

Love the Ep. 8 trailer. Looking forward to it :)

So I'm not the only one who disliked Rogue One!

by Kahzgul, Friday, April 14, 2017, 13:39 (43 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

I thought Rogue One was a decent movie, but a poor "Star Wars" movie. It completely lacked the hope that Star Wars has.

I think if it had ended with Jen getting away in a stolen ship or something, then I'd have bought it, but for every single person to die, and for so many "fighters" to go willingly to their fates (what's his butt in the cave doesn't even try to get to the ship, the gun guy goes all rambo (at least that was believable), and then Jen and what's his butt just walk down to the beach and cuddle, nevermind the fact that they were in an actual space port... It didn't make any sense to me.

I enjoyed how it tied in to episode 4, but it played as a prologue, not a stand-alone story.

Nope, not at all

by narcogen ⌂ @, Almaty, Kazakhstan, Friday, April 14, 2017, 21:07 (43 days ago) @ Kahzgul

I thought Rogue One was a decent movie, but a poor "Star Wars" movie. It completely lacked the hope that Star Wars has.

[spoiler snipped]

I enjoyed how it tied in to episode 4, but it played as a prologue, not a stand-alone story.

It was the Halo Reach of Star Wars.

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Nope, not at all

by cheapLEY @, Interstate 8, Saturday, April 15, 2017, 07:25 (43 days ago) @ narcogen

It was the Halo Reach of Star Wars.

I wish it was as good as Halo Reach.

Nope, not at all

by narcogen ⌂ @, Almaty, Kazakhstan, Sunday, April 16, 2017, 19:09 (41 days ago) @ cheapLEY

It was the Halo Reach of Star Wars.


I wish it was as good as Halo Reach.

Burn!

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Nope, not at all

by Cody Miller, Dinklebot - Never Forget, Saturday, April 15, 2017, 08:22 (43 days ago) @ narcogen

I thought Rogue One was a decent movie, but a poor "Star Wars" movie. It completely lacked the hope that Star Wars has.

[spoiler snipped]

I enjoyed how it tied in to episode 4, but it played as a prologue, not a stand-alone story.


It was the Halo Reach of Star Wars.

It's actually the opposite. Rouge one is definitely 100% canon, going so far as to decanonize the expanded universe. :-p

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Rogue One: good fan fiction. TFA: bad fan fiction.

by Funkmon @, Friday, April 14, 2017, 21:04 (43 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

- No text -

Exactly. Except the opposite.

by narcogen ⌂ @, Almaty, Kazakhstan, Friday, April 14, 2017, 21:06 (43 days ago) @ Funkmon

- No text -

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Exactly. Except the opposite.

by Funkmon @, Monday, April 17, 2017, 09:21 (41 days ago) @ narcogen

Rogue One is what good fan fiction should be. A story about bit players and how they did something important in the universe.

TFA is bad fan fiction. It is "look at this awesome new character who is a hot girl and also has mysterious control over her force powers with zero education, even more than Luke. Btw she is also a slave on a desert planet and steals the Millennium Falcon! Then Han Solo shows up! Then she gets captured by Darth Vader's grandson after using Vader's old lightsaber. He brings her to a death star, except it isn't a death star, it's bigger and more scary, but then they explode it by doing a trench run that is bigger and more scary than in Star Wars. THEN there is a final climactic scene between surprise force power hot girl using Vader's old lightsaber vs Vader's grandson using an ultra powerful super lightsaber with 3 blades. Then she goes to find Yoda on an uncharted planet. I mean Luke. She goes to find him on an uncharted planet so they can be BFFs. End of part 1."

It is just typical of bad fan fiction. I thought it was a decent movie, but it didn't do anything new. It was just inserting characters into the same story, where everything was +1 bigger and scarier with a new chosen one who is +1 better looking and more skilled than the last one.

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+10

by Korny ⌂ @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Monday, April 17, 2017, 09:31 (41 days ago) @ Funkmon

Rogue One is what good fan fiction should be. A story about bit players and how they did something important in the universe.

Clears up plot holes in the universe in a believable way? Check.
Develops existing supporting characters from a different perspective? Check.
Tells a contained story within an existing universe in a way that doesn't conflict with canon? Check.

Good fan fiction!


TFA is bad fan fiction. It is "look at this awesome new character who is a hot girl and also has mysterious control over her force powers with zero education, even more than Luke. Btw she is also a slave on a desert planet and steals the Millennium Falcon! Then Han Solo shows up! Then she gets captured by Darth Vader's grandson after using Vader's old lightsaber. He brings her to a death star, except it isn't a death star, it's bigger and more scary, but then they explode it by doing a trench run that is bigger and more scary than in Star Wars. THEN there is a final climactic scene between surprise force power hot girl using Vader's old lightsaber vs Vader's grandson using an ultra powerful super lightsaber with 3 blades. Then she goes to find Yoda on an uncharted planet. I mean Luke. She goes to find him on an uncharted planet so they can be BFFs. End of part 1."

Really, the only thing missing is Boba Fett's son showing up in an after-credits sequence...

Bad fan fiction!

It is just typical of bad fan fiction. I thought it was a decent movie, but it didn't do anything new. It was just inserting characters into the same story, where everything was +1 bigger and scarier with a new chosen one who is +1 better looking and more skilled than the last one.

I liked it (even watched it twice in theaters), but that was more as a contrast to the prequels. It gave the universe another chance to be good, but it wasn't original in any sense. I'm not one of those "It was just a New Hope!" whiners, but it definitely tried too hard to rehash old ideas and up the stakes while following a Mary Sue everywhere, and not developing the universe at all besides overt storytelling.

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meh

by Blackt1g3r @, Kansas City, MO, Monday, April 17, 2017, 12:04 (41 days ago) @ Korny

Develops existing supporting characters from a different perspective? Check.

If you mean doesn't develop any supporting characters because they are all dead and we barely had any time to get to know them? Sure. :P

I had serious problems with Jyn because she doesn't care about anything until she randomly decides to care at the end of the movie. There isn't any real character development that changes her mind other than she sees her dad die.

Cassian is the guy who doesn't hesitate to kill a friend at the beginning of the movie, then decides in the middle to suddenly have a change of heart and can no longer be that ruthless.

There isn't anything that causes the characters to change in any meaningful, or believable way for me.

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meh

by Harmanimus, Monday, April 17, 2017, 13:18 (40 days ago) @ Blackt1g3r

But Jyn has a major conflict during her confrontation with Saw and has her change of hard during the holo message, not at her father's death. And the encounter with the informant for Cassian was pure pragmatism, while he shows he is already conflicted about his orders when he receives confirmation to continue with the kill order.

For he new characters, there is quite a lot that is interestingly presented. And the characters being brought in from the existing canon do get a fair bit of interesting layers added onto them. Internal Rebel politics. Questionable Imperial practices and a displayed lack of unity among them.

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+10

by Cody Miller, Dinklebot - Never Forget, Monday, April 17, 2017, 12:09 (41 days ago) @ Korny

Tells a contained story within an existing universe in a way that doesn't conflict with canon? Check.

What is Dark Forces and Kyle Katarn then, chopped liver?

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+10

by Korny ⌂ @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Monday, April 17, 2017, 12:13 (41 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Tells a contained story within an existing universe in a way that doesn't conflict with canon? Check.


What is Dark Forces and Kyle Katarn then, chopped liver?

Yep, non-canon since before Rogue One was even proposed as a film. Literal fan-fiction since Disney took the reins.

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+10

by Blackt1g3r @, Kansas City, MO, Monday, April 17, 2017, 13:40 (40 days ago) @ Korny

Tells a contained story within an existing universe in a way that doesn't conflict with canon? Check.


What is Dark Forces and Kyle Katarn then, chopped liver?


Yep, non-canon since before Rogue One was even proposed as a film. Literal fan-fiction since Disney took the reins.

Are you sure? Kyle Katarn appears as a Jedi in the EU books at least in passing.

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+10

by Korny ⌂ @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Monday, April 17, 2017, 13:52 (40 days ago) @ Blackt1g3r

Tells a contained story within an existing universe in a way that doesn't conflict with canon? Check.


What is Dark Forces and Kyle Katarn then, chopped liver?


Yep, non-canon since before Rogue One was even proposed as a film. Literal fan-fiction since Disney took the reins.


Are you sure? Kyle Katarn appears as a Jedi in the EU books at least in passing.

Which books?

When Disney took over the Star Wars franchise, they explicitly established that all EU media (books, games, comics, etc.) up to that point was non-canon. Films and TV series (The Clone Wars, Rebels) excluded.

That said, Thrawn has made an appearance in the Rebels show, so clearly some elements of the EU will be curated for canon (and some by extension: Republic Commandos are canon, since they appeared in The Clone Wars). But for all intents and purposes, no character named Kyle Katarn exists in the Star Wars canon in any capacity... unless Disney includes him in a piece of EU media down the road.

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Almost

by Funkmon @, Monday, April 17, 2017, 14:17 (40 days ago) @ Korny

They allowed the radio adaptations and the novelizations of the films to remain canon, iirc. The novelizations have important info not in the films potentially for future use.

But yeah, they're picking and choosing stuff from the old canon, like a New 52 or Marvel NOW!

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+10

by Blackt1g3r @, Kansas City, MO, Monday, April 17, 2017, 17:23 (40 days ago) @ Korny

Yep, non-canon since before Rogue One was even proposed as a film. Literal fan-fiction since Disney took the reins.


Are you sure? Kyle Katarn appears as a Jedi in the EU books at least in passing.


Which books?

When Disney took over the Star Wars franchise, they explicitly established that all EU media (books, games, comics, etc.) up to that point was non-canon. Films and TV series (The Clone Wars, Rebels) excluded.

I mean he was canon before Disney decided to throw out the EU. Books he appeared in are listed here.

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+10

by bluerunner @, Music City, Wednesday, April 19, 2017, 02:53 (39 days ago) @ Korny

Rogue One is what good fan fiction should be. A story about bit players and how they did something important in the universe.


Clears up plot holes in the universe in a believable way? Check.
Develops existing supporting characters from a different perspective? Check.
Tells a contained story within an existing universe in a way that doesn't conflict with canon? Check.

Good fan fiction!

I just came across this. There were a lot of musical ties to the original trilogy that I missed. Plus the thing he discusses in the middle I will not be able to unhear.

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+10

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Wednesday, April 19, 2017, 06:13 (39 days ago) @ bluerunner

That, more than anything else posted in this thread, makes me want to see Rogue One again.

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Interesting

by Blackt1g3r @, Kansas City, MO, Wednesday, April 19, 2017, 10:30 (39 days ago) @ bluerunner

Personally, I found the soundtrack too derivative. It sounded to me like he just copy-pasted star wars music everywhere throughout the film. Maybe it's because they were trying to separate the movie from the other star wars movies, but then they just directly re-used many of the themes from the original? Not sure, I just remember having moments during the movie where I was hung up on how bad the re-use of some of the original star wars music was. It completely distracted from my experience at times.

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Oh wow

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Wednesday, April 19, 2017, 10:35 (39 days ago) @ bluerunner

Also, that Dias Irae thing... yeah, can't unhear now

+10

by Claude Errera @, Monday, April 24, 2017, 10:02 (34 days ago) @ bluerunner

I just came across this. There were a lot of musical ties to the original trilogy that I missed. Plus the thing he discusses in the middle I will not be able to unhear.

I'm woefully uneducated about music, but this was fascinating, and makes me want to go back and watch some of these movies again.

Exactly. Except the opposite.

by narcogen ⌂ @, Almaty, Kazakhstan, Monday, April 17, 2017, 19:23 (40 days ago) @ Funkmon

Rogue One is what good fan fiction should be. A story about bit players and how they did something important in the universe.

TFA is bad fan fiction. It is "look at this awesome new character who is a hot girl and also has mysterious control over her force powers with zero education, even more than Luke. Btw she is also a slave on a desert planet and steals the Millennium Falcon! Then Han Solo shows up! Then she gets captured by Darth Vader's grandson after using Vader's old lightsaber. He brings her to a death star, except it isn't a death star, it's bigger and more scary, but then they explode it by doing a trench run that is bigger and more scary than in Star Wars. THEN there is a final climactic scene between surprise force power hot girl using Vader's old lightsaber vs Vader's grandson using an ultra powerful super lightsaber with 3 blades. Then she goes to find Yoda on an uncharted planet. I mean Luke. She goes to find him on an uncharted planet so they can be BFFs. End of part 1."

It is just typical of bad fan fiction. I thought it was a decent movie, but it didn't do anything new. It was just inserting characters into the same story, where everything was +1 bigger and scarier with a new chosen one who is +1 better looking and more skilled than the last one.

That's sort of like saying FF has to be bad, so it should stay away from major characters and themes to avoid infecting them with their badness.

I'm not saying that I disagree with that thesis, necessarily, but it did look weird to see RO labeled as "good FF" and TFA as "bad FF" when I found RO ponderous, lifeless and boring, and TFA, although more than a smidgen of it was slavish fanservice, was entertaining and enjoyable, for the most part.

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Exactly. Except the opposite.

by cheapLEY @, Interstate 8, Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 06:52 (40 days ago) @ narcogen

I'm not saying that I disagree with that thesis, necessarily, but it did look weird to see RO labeled as "good FF" and TFA as "bad FF" when I found RO ponderous, lifeless and boring, and TFA, although more than a smidgen of it was slavish fanservice, was entertaining and enjoyable, for the most part.

I couldn't agree more. I can see an argument for Rogue One being a "better" movie and story, technically. I guess I'll take bad fan fiction any day so long as it's actually fun and entertaining. The Force Awakens still makes me grin like an idiot after multiple rewatches. Rogue One failed to do that the first time, and I don't plan to watch it again anytime soon.

Exactly. Except the opposite.

by narcogen ⌂ @, Almaty, Kazakhstan, Wednesday, April 19, 2017, 00:14 (39 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I'm not saying that I disagree with that thesis, necessarily, but it did look weird to see RO labeled as "good FF" and TFA as "bad FF" when I found RO ponderous, lifeless and boring, and TFA, although more than a smidgen of it was slavish fanservice, was entertaining and enjoyable, for the most part.


I couldn't agree more. I can see an argument for Rogue One being a "better" movie and story, technically.

I can't. Didn't care about a single character in it. Conflicts thematically with the rest of the series, but does nothing interesting with that conflict. Put me to sleep.

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Yeah but still

by Funkmon @, Wednesday, April 19, 2017, 07:38 (39 days ago) @ narcogen

You're right the execution wasn't as good. So when I say bad fan fiction, I consider the goal of the FF, primarily, and there can be good bad fan fiction and bad good fan fiction.

Therefore, Master of the Universe is bad fan fiction, despite being the most successful piece of fan fiction of all time, but All Roads Lead to Sol by S7N is good fan fiction despite not being very good.

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So I'm not the only one who disliked Rogue One!

by cheapLEY @, Interstate 8, Friday, April 14, 2017, 17:32 (43 days ago) @ Blackt1g3r

It just seemed so unnecessary. It wasn't a story that needed to be told. And it has me scared for the Han Solo movie. Makes me think that all that will be is how he met Chewie, how he won the Falcon, etc, etc. I don't need the stuff we heard about in the OT explained to every detail. My perfect Han Solo movie would be after he met Chewie and already had the Falcon and are just doing their thing. Maybe some sort of heist movie--I don't want a biography of Han Solo movie.

Star Wars is like an iceberg

by narcogen ⌂ @, Almaty, Kazakhstan, Friday, April 14, 2017, 21:11 (43 days ago) @ cheapLEY

It just seemed so unnecessary. It wasn't a story that needed to be told.

Yup! Just like Halo: Reach.

And it has me scared for the Han Solo movie. Makes me think that all that will be is how he met Chewie, how he won the Falcon, etc, etc. I don't need the stuff we heard about in the OT explained to every detail. My perfect Han Solo movie would be after he met Chewie and already had the Falcon and are just doing their thing. Maybe some sort of heist movie--I don't want a biography of Han Solo movie.

I think perhaps there's some sort of mystical balance to be struck between story and backstory. A fictional universe needs to feel like an iceberg; that no matter how large it appears on the surface, even more lurks underwater that you can't see clearly.

Turning backstory into story I think does not work if all it is doing is changing the waterline. You need to hint at even greater depths still below, and even if you are able to do that, I think you hit a point of diminishing returns somewhere.

The comparison to fanfiction I think is apt because that's just what fan fiction communities do: they convert context into text.

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Star Wars is like an iceberg

by Cody Miller, Dinklebot - Never Forget, Saturday, April 15, 2017, 08:26 (43 days ago) @ narcogen

I touch on this point exactly in my post about Bungie failing at visual storytelling. It's precisely the difference between the ability of spoken or written language and audio visual stimulus to tell a story. Hearing Oni Wan talk about the legend of Vader is always going to preserve the mystique around his character better than seeing it actually happen.

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Star Wars is like an iceberg

by Kuga, Monday, April 17, 2017, 08:18 (41 days ago) @ narcogen

I get what you're saying in regards of timing, but I already saw Cowboy Bebop. Man-Faye can be the wookie in this analogy.

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by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, April 17, 2017, 08:52 (41 days ago) @ narcogen

It just seemed so unnecessary. It wasn't a story that needed to be told.


Yup! Just like Halo: Reach.

And it has me scared for the Han Solo movie. Makes me think that all that will be is how he met Chewie, how he won the Falcon, etc, etc. I don't need the stuff we heard about in the OT explained to every detail. My perfect Han Solo movie would be after he met Chewie and already had the Falcon and are just doing their thing. Maybe some sort of heist movie--I don't want a biography of Han Solo movie.

I think perhaps there's some sort of mystical balance to be struck between story and backstory. A fictional universe needs to feel like an iceberg; that no matter how large it appears on the surface, even more lurks underwater that you can't see clearly.

Turning backstory into story I think does not work if all it is doing is changing the waterline. You need to hint at even greater depths still below, and even if you are able to do that, I think you hit a point of diminishing returns somewhere.

The comparison to fanfiction I think is apt because that's just what fan fiction communities do: they convert context into text.

If only for the highlighted line. I was a fan of Reach mainly because it gave the Halo universe a major dollop of realism, but I do wholeheartedly agree that giving us room to activate our imagination is essential in fiction, and often less is more, precisely because less gives us that room. One aspect I loved about Halo: Combat Evolved was that I always had the feeling I was being watched--the feeling that if I turned quick enough I might catch a glimpse of someone or something whose presence I felt. The subtle breathing you heard in your ear contributed to this--along with enigmatic messages like "Killed by the guardians," and the fact that you were in these huge structures that couldn't be built by any known entity (Hey Levi!). This mystery was essential to what made the Halo universe special (and you can see 343 trying to keep it up with the precursors, but it's hard to ring that bell twice). I like the new Star Wars movies, but I don't love them like I did the first two (and provisionally, three). And regarding backstory, no new revelations in the Star Wars universe excites me like reading Splinter of the Mind's Eye did in 1978 (but that may have to do with the fact that you're only 14 once). I'm guilty of converting context into text myself, and it's a fun exercise. You're right, though--it has to be more than that.

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by Avateur @, Monday, April 17, 2017, 20:57 (40 days ago) @ Kermit

(and you can see 343 trying to keep it up with the precursors, but it's hard to ring that bell twice).

No. They killed the mystery behind everything else, so it's all they have left to wreck. And they also killed everything else. Total false equivalence trying to compare any of this to that failed studio.

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by Cody Miller, Dinklebot - Never Forget, Monday, April 17, 2017, 21:35 (40 days ago) @ Avateur

(and you can see 343 trying to keep it up with the precursors, but it's hard to ring that bell twice).


No. They killed the mystery behind everything else, so it's all they have left to wreck. And they also killed everything else. Total false equivalence trying to compare any of this to that failed studio.

Could ANY studio have continued Halo in a good way? Sometimes things just run their course.

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by Avateur @, Monday, April 17, 2017, 21:55 (40 days ago) @ Cody Miller

(and you can see 343 trying to keep it up with the precursors, but it's hard to ring that bell twice).


No. They killed the mystery behind everything else, so it's all they have left to wreck. And they also killed everything else. Total false equivalence trying to compare any of this to that failed studio.


Could ANY studio have continued Halo in a good way? Sometimes things just run their course.

Excellent question. If I'm honest with myself, probably not. At least probably not long term. But could whatever studio have run things better and more honestly and less broken than 343? Oh yeah, for sure. Guaranteed.

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by Harmanimus, Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 09:33 (40 days ago) @ Avateur

I would actually have to counter with the argument that yes, there are studios or even the existing studio which could have done continued Halo justice. The problem is that the high level management of the franchise decided to go in the wrong direction, and consistent mismanagement of the property has led it on a downward spiral. The more human direction of ODST and the more grounded nature of Reach both provide very strong arguements toward Halo within the Human-Covenant war era could have continued on with a high quality bar. The better expanded fiction is the stuff that deals with that era. The choice to dive into the Forerunner and change them from being the implied ancient humanity and a wholly separate species, killing the mystery and the special nature of humans in the universe. The "everything is a fan response" is not a good way to run a franchise.

Take this with a grain of salt because I know I'm in the minority here about the feeling that Reach was a relative highlight, and the general consensus appears to be "space opera good, military sci-fi bad" (as a grotesque oversimplification) as this thread underscores. But that is a bag of cats I don't necessarily want to open too wode.

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by Korny ⌂ @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 10:39 (40 days ago) @ Harmanimus

I would actually have to counter with the argument that yes, there are studios or even the existing studio which could have done continued Halo justice.

From a story perspective, I think it has less to do with the studio, and more to do with the writers that they hire. Guerilla is a fantastic example of a studio with average writers that jumped up to near god-tier simply by hiring the right people to help flesh out a universe from a simple concept (Horizon Zero Dawn).

As far as gameplay, studios like Treyarch or Monolith could have made some fantastic stuff with the franchise (Treyarch's games alone had a better theater mode, tighter multiplayer, and a better rate of content drops than Bungie had when they were running Halo).

Take this with a grain of salt because I know I'm in the minority here about the feeling that Reach was a relative highlight, and the general consensus appears to be "space opera good, military sci-fi bad" (as a grotesque oversimplification) as this thread underscores. But that is a bag of cats I don't necessarily want to open too wode.

Halo 1, ODST, and Reach are above and beyond the best of the Halo games, and incidentally, they're the three games with the most human/smaller scale stories. I've never been a fan of the space opera direction that Halo took, and the diluted generic sci-fi that 343 has turned it into. I think that 343's biggest problem started with trying to one-up Bungie in the high-concept areas, rather than making a spin-off like ODST 2 first while they worked out better ideas with how to continue Chief's story.

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by Cody Miller, Dinklebot - Never Forget, Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 12:36 (39 days ago) @ Korny
edited by Cody Miller, Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 12:41

The thing to remember though, is that story works a little differently in video games than it does elsewhere. Some people might disagree, but I think the whole point of a story in a game is to enhance immersion by providing a believable context for your in game actions. It doesn't have to be a masterpiece (I'd say only 3 can be called that in the history of video games). It just has to enhance the game.

You can write the best story, but if it doesn't lend itself to being played it will fail.

Your comment about high concept is pretty spot on actuallly. It's really hard to drive 'gameplay' with exotic non tangible concepts. It's usually the simple things that get us invested, and those things 343 overlooks. Even something as seemingly complex as Last of Us is really about the simple emotion of guilt. Joel's guilt is a plausible reason for us to want to protect Ellie.

What about the domain or the guardians or the mantle influences the 'gameplay' of Halo 5? Exactly.

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by Harmanimus, Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 13:14 (39 days ago) @ Cody Miller

What about the domain or the guardians or the mantle influences the 'gameplay' of Halo 5? Exactly.

This says so much about my feelings regarding their handling of it all. Everything at the low levels is interchangeable. Look at how they treat characters and specifically antagonists. Nothing feels important. This filters down to moment-to-moment gameplay even, trying to make weapon and enemy analogs. Not that Bungie!Halo didn't have stuff sitting on high concepts, but it wasn't a replacement for the core.

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by Avateur @, Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 20:08 (39 days ago) @ Harmanimus

I would actually have to counter with the argument that yes, there are studios or even the existing studio which could have done continued Halo justice. The problem is that the high level management of the franchise decided to go in the wrong direction, and consistent mismanagement of the property has led it on a downward spiral. The more human direction of ODST and the more grounded nature of Reach both provide very strong arguements toward Halo within the Human-Covenant war era could have continued on with a high quality bar. The better expanded fiction is the stuff that deals with that era. The choice to dive into the Forerunner and change them from being the implied ancient humanity and a wholly separate species, killing the mystery and the special nature of humans in the universe. The "everything is a fan response" is not a good way to run a franchise.

Take this with a grain of salt because I know I'm in the minority here about the feeling that Reach was a relative highlight, and the general consensus appears to be "space opera good, military sci-fi bad" (as a grotesque oversimplification) as this thread underscores. But that is a bag of cats I don't necessarily want to open too wode.

While I disagree on the thought that Halo could have been done justice 343 or not as far as long-term goes, I think I agree with you on everything else. I love Reach, though the writing definitely has problems (and those got touched on by myself and plenty of others). Regardless, I love that campaign and multiplayer. H1 is also my favorite Halo game, and ODST is near flawless to me (aside from the big empty hubworld that left me wanting more, but hey). Also, I really enjoyed Rogue One. I also really enjoyed Episode VII (and gave it a pass for being a IV clone because I'm hoping that it's going to be used for a new and wonderful direction with VIII). Really hoping it's not an Episode V clone.

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by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 12:24 (40 days ago) @ Avateur
edited by Kermit, Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 12:27

(and you can see 343 trying to keep it up with the precursors, but it's hard to ring that bell twice).


No. They killed the mystery behind everything else, so it's all they have left to wreck. And they also killed everything else. Total false equivalence trying to compare any of this to that failed studio.


Could ANY studio have continued Halo in a good way? Sometimes things just run their course.


Excellent question. If I'm honest with myself, probably not. At least probably not long term. But could whatever studio have run things better and more honestly and less broken than 343? Oh yeah, for sure. Guaranteed.

You're a smart guy, so I don't understand how the mention of 343 drives you to sound like a nincompoop. You first say I'm making a false equivalency when I express skepticism about 343's efforts to maintain mystery in Halo. My skepticism is a false equivalency to what, exactly? Then you say "whatever studio" could do a better job with Halo than 343, which is a non-falsifiable statement, which you then guarantee! SMH.

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Thank you.

by cheapLEY @, Interstate 8, Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 13:33 (39 days ago) @ Kermit

No matter what happened with Halo, plenty of folks would have hated it. Hell, plenty of people dislike particular Halo games that Bungie made. They're just as guilty of basically all of 343i's sins throughout their time making Halo. You can't please everyone.

Thank you.

by Avateur @, Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 20:09 (39 days ago) @ cheapLEY

They're just as guilty of basically all of 343i's sins throughout their time making Halo.

[image]

Adore this post.

by Avateur @, Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 20:03 (39 days ago) @ Kermit

You're a smart guy, so I don't understand how the mention of 343 drives you to sound like a nincompoop. You first say I'm making a false equivalency when I express skepticism about 343's efforts to maintain mystery in Halo. My skepticism is a false equivalency to what, exactly? Then you say "whatever studio" could do a better job with Halo than 343, which is a non-falsifiable statement, which you then guarantee! SMH.

What? Why are you making this about your skepticism? I'm making this about you bringing them up or using them as a comparison at all because it doesn't fit. The false equivalency has to do with bringing up 343 in regards to the Precursors. They alredy actually tried continuing the mystery (while at the same time doing everything in their power to destroy the mystery, go figure) with the Forerunner and whatever whack direction they were going to try to go with it, but it didn't pan out. At this point, they're on to another attempt at trying to make things work out. It doesn't jive with what you're saying because they've already tried and failed (in more ways than one, obviously).

As an aside, way to warp my words. I outright told Cody that no, another company probably couldn't. I did qualify it with the long-term statement, but my guarantee for said hypothetical studio was made in regards to how things would be run, how honest they would be, and how things wouldn't be as broken. That doesn't mean their Halo story wouldn't be total shit. That also doesn't mean that they'd do a 14-day buy and play or whatever they called the lie they made up, or that they'd sell a nearly completely unplayable multiplayer game (though campaign sorta kinda mostly worked during that time) and pretend it somehow magically never appeared in testing like that. And so on and so forth. SMH.

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by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 21:38 (39 days ago) @ Avateur

You're a smart guy, so I don't understand how the mention of 343 drives you to sound like a nincompoop. You first say I'm making a false equivalency when I express skepticism about 343's efforts to maintain mystery in Halo. My skepticism is a false equivalency to what, exactly? Then you say "whatever studio" could do a better job with Halo than 343, which is a non-falsifiable statement, which you then guarantee! SMH.


What? Why are you making this about your skepticism? I'm making this about you bringing them up or using them as a comparison at all because it doesn't fit. The false equivalency has to do with bringing up 343 in regards to the Precursors. They alredy actually tried continuing the mystery (while at the same time doing everything in their power to destroy the mystery, go figure) with the Forerunner and whatever whack direction they were going to try to go with it, but it didn't pan out. At this point, they're on to another attempt at trying to make things work out. It doesn't jive with what you're saying because they've already tried and failed (in more ways than one, obviously).

You just said they tried continuing the mystery which was exactly my point and justifies my mentioning them. I didn't say they succeeded, but your 343 hatred is so strong even bringing them up as a negative example is somehow offensive to you.


As an aside, way to warp my words. I outright told Cody that no, another company probably couldn't. I did qualify it with the long-term statement, but my guarantee for said hypothetical studio was made in regards to how things would be run, how honest they would be, and how things wouldn't be as broken. That doesn't mean their Halo story wouldn't be total shit. That also doesn't mean that they'd do a 14-day buy and play or whatever they called the lie they made up, or that they'd sell a nearly completely unplayable multiplayer game (though campaign sorta kinda mostly worked during that time) and pretend it somehow magically never appeared in testing like that. And so on and so forth. SMH.

I'm not warping your words. This mythical "whatever studio" of yours doesn't exist--to guarantee it would do anything better than 343 is idiotic.

Adore this post.

by Avateur @, Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 22:02 (39 days ago) @ Kermit

You just said they tried continuing the mystery which was exactly my point and justifies my mentioning them. I didn't say they succeeded, but your 343 hatred is so strong even bringing them up as a negative example is somehow offensive to you.

I actually totally said regarding the Precursors, but keep sampling.

As an aside, way to warp my words. I outright told Cody that no, another company probably couldn't. I did qualify it with the long-term statement, but my guarantee for said hypothetical studio was made in regards to how things would be run, how honest they would be, and how things wouldn't be as broken. That doesn't mean their Halo story wouldn't be total shit. That also doesn't mean that they'd do a 14-day buy and play or whatever they called the lie they made up, or that they'd sell a nearly completely unplayable multiplayer game (though campaign sorta kinda mostly worked during that time) and pretend it somehow magically never appeared in testing like that. And so on and so forth. SMH.


I'm not warping your words. This mythical "whatever studio" of yours doesn't exist--to guarantee it would do anything better than 343 is idiotic.

Take it to the bank. Guaranteed by the FDIC. In this universe, the next, and any other real or hypothetical.

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Adore this post.

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 22:13 (39 days ago) @ Avateur

You just said they tried continuing the mystery which was exactly my point and justifies my mentioning them. I didn't say they succeeded, but your 343 hatred is so strong even bringing them up as a negative example is somehow offensive to you.


I actually totally said regarding the Precursors, but keep sampling.

I still don't get it. I express skepticism that the Precursors can provide sufficient mystery. That's a false equivalency to my examples of sufficient mystery. Makes no sense.

As an aside, way to warp my words. I outright told Cody that no, another company probably couldn't. I did qualify it with the long-term statement, but my guarantee for said hypothetical studio was made in regards to how things would be run, how honest they would be, and how things wouldn't be as broken. That doesn't mean their Halo story wouldn't be total shit. That also doesn't mean that they'd do a 14-day buy and play or whatever they called the lie they made up, or that they'd sell a nearly completely unplayable multiplayer game (though campaign sorta kinda mostly worked during that time) and pretend it somehow magically never appeared in testing like that. And so on and so forth. SMH.


I'm not warping your words. This mythical "whatever studio" of yours doesn't exist--to guarantee it would do anything better than 343 is idiotic.


Take it to the bank. Guaranteed by the FDIC. In this universe, the next, and any other real or hypothetical.

i suspect you think being hyperbolic and unfair is funny instead of just mean-spirited.

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Adore this post.

by kidtsunami @, Raleigh, NC, Wednesday, April 19, 2017, 08:36 (39 days ago) @ Kermit

You just said they tried continuing the mystery which was exactly my point and justifies my mentioning them. I didn't say they succeeded, but your 343 hatred is so strong even bringing them up as a negative example is somehow offensive to you.


I actually totally said regarding the Precursors, but keep sampling.


I still don't get it. I express skepticism that the Precursors can provide sufficient mystery. That's a false equivalency to my examples of sufficient mystery. Makes no sense.

As an aside, way to warp my words. I outright told Cody that no, another company probably couldn't. I did qualify it with the long-term statement, but my guarantee for said hypothetical studio was made in regards to how things would be run, how honest they would be, and how things wouldn't be as broken. That doesn't mean their Halo story wouldn't be total shit. That also doesn't mean that they'd do a 14-day buy and play or whatever they called the lie they made up, or that they'd sell a nearly completely unplayable multiplayer game (though campaign sorta kinda mostly worked during that time) and pretend it somehow magically never appeared in testing like that. And so on and so forth. SMH.


I'm not warping your words. This mythical "whatever studio" of yours doesn't exist--to guarantee it would do anything better than 343 is idiotic.


Take it to the bank. Guaranteed by the FDIC. In this universe, the next, and any other real or hypothetical.


i suspect you think being hyperbolic and unfair is funny instead of just mean-spirited.

The end result is the same either way, it makes whatever he has to say relatively uninteresting and not worthy of note.

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Adore this post.

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Wednesday, April 19, 2017, 08:53 (39 days ago) @ kidtsunami

You just said they tried continuing the mystery which was exactly my point and justifies my mentioning them. I didn't say they succeeded, but your 343 hatred is so strong even bringing them up as a negative example is somehow offensive to you.


I actually totally said regarding the Precursors, but keep sampling.


I still don't get it. I express skepticism that the Precursors can provide sufficient mystery. That's a false equivalency to my examples of sufficient mystery. Makes no sense.

As an aside, way to warp my words. I outright told Cody that no, another company probably couldn't. I did qualify it with the long-term statement, but my guarantee for said hypothetical studio was made in regards to how things would be run, how honest they would be, and how things wouldn't be as broken. That doesn't mean their Halo story wouldn't be total shit. That also doesn't mean that they'd do a 14-day buy and play or whatever they called the lie they made up, or that they'd sell a nearly completely unplayable multiplayer game (though campaign sorta kinda mostly worked during that time) and pretend it somehow magically never appeared in testing like that. And so on and so forth. SMH.


I'm not warping your words. This mythical "whatever studio" of yours doesn't exist--to guarantee it would do anything better than 343 is idiotic.


Take it to the bank. Guaranteed by the FDIC. In this universe, the next, and any other real or hypothetical.


i suspect you think being hyperbolic and unfair is funny instead of just mean-spirited.


The end result is the same either way, it makes whatever he has to say relatively uninteresting and not worthy of note.

I admit I'm responding to a history of hyperbolic, unfair criticisms of 343--that, and an apparent misunderstanding of what "false equivalence" means.

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+1

by kidtsunami @, Raleigh, NC, Wednesday, April 19, 2017, 08:58 (39 days ago) @ Kermit

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by cheapLEY @, Interstate 8, Wednesday, April 19, 2017, 09:07 (39 days ago) @ kidtsunami

People that reply with dumb memes obviously aren't interested in actual conversation. On the other hand, it is a conversation that's been had a hundred times before on bungie.org, so it's probably a no-win scenario anyway.

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I don't believe in no-win scenarios. *Takes bite of apple*

by Ragashingo ⌂ @, Texas | day/night cycle is not cannon, Wednesday, April 19, 2017, 09:15 (39 days ago) @ cheapLEY

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exxxxxxactly

by kidtsunami @, Raleigh, NC, Wednesday, April 19, 2017, 09:20 (39 days ago) @ cheapLEY

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Agreed.

by Ragashingo ⌂ @, Texas | day/night cycle is not cannon, Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 07:29 (40 days ago) @ Avateur
edited by Ragashingo, Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 07:50

The problems with Halo 4 and 5 were never that you couldn't continue to tell a satisfying story in the Halo universe. It's that 343 told a crappy, illogical story that:

  • Changed the Didact, the greatest and most tragic hero of the Halo universe, into an brainless evil bad guy who decided to kill an entire race to fight a threat that no longer existed.

    (Remember when the Forerunner were a noble race who exhausted all other options then sacrificed themselves to save the rest of the galaxy?)
  • Gave us UNSC characters like Captain Del Rio, who's solution was to yell at everything ineffectually, and Sarah Palmer who was mainly around to be a total jerk.

    (Remember when the UNSC personnel were effective strategists, like Captain Keyes, or actual bad asses, like Sargent Johnson with his max level plot armor?)
  • Reintroduced the Covenant as a faction to shoot at by almost literally saying: "I thought we had a peace treaty?" followed by "Oh. I guess not."

    (Remember Halo 2 which at least gave a sense of the politics and conflict surrounding the exchange of hats?)
  • And topped it all off by trying to extend the single player campaign with a series of way too short, not even half baked "missions" stitched together with the occasional short cutscenes about 4th rate "Spartans".

    (Remember when a single Spartan in Moljnir armor was enough to turn the tide of an engagement, and a team of Spartans could often save planets?)

343's Halo isn't bad because they revealed the mystery of the Forerunner, it's bad because they largely betrayed the principles that upheld the Halo universe. If they had kept Spartans awesome, the UNSC leadership competent, and the Forerunner noble, then I'd still be involved with the Halo universe.

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Unfortunately we're in the era of "mature" shows

by Blackt1g3r @, Kansas City, MO, Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 07:43 (40 days ago) @ Ragashingo

These days everything has to be dark and gritty to "make it more realistic". I think that is bleeding into our video games too, that's why you get a Didact that isn't anything like the previous descriptions of him (history is written by the victors and it's wrong in real life, so it must be that way in a video game!) and incompetent UNSC leadership (people are flawed so it's more real!).

Not to say that there is anything wrong with dark and gritty stories. I really enjoyed The Man in the High Castle and felt that those elements fit that story very well. It fits what you would expect if the Nazi's won WWII. The problem I see is that everyone is following the fad even when it doesn't really fit the story very well.

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Unfortunately we're in the era of "mature" shows

by Harmanimus, Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 09:44 (40 days ago) @ Blackt1g3r

I don't think it is people following the notion of "dark is good" that are creating problems, though. Even if they made Halo 4 lighthearted and more humorous it would not have made up for the problems. You could still have Spartans that are force multipliers, intelligent UNSC leadership, a logically presented explanation of the Covenant splinter faction, and an intelligently approached Didact who could have been treated with dignity while maintaining an air of nobility and "for the greater good" about him.

It isn't that 343i made the overall story darker, it's that the only seem to have done it to hide the fact that they don't know where they are going. whatever framework they had set up for the Reclaimer trilogy appears to not have survived first contact.

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+1

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Wednesday, April 19, 2017, 10:54 (39 days ago) @ Harmanimus

I would even go further and say they could have played it all off as "dark and gritty" and "the victors write the story" and "ONI was propaganding the SPARTAN project hard" (which, btw, H5's marketing hinted at very well, imo) and still succeed, if only they had consciously planned that from the start, as opposed to the seemingly half-baked ideas I perceive being throw at the universe from all directions.

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I call it the Silmarillion problem.

by Funkmon @, Monday, April 17, 2017, 09:12 (41 days ago) @ narcogen

LOTR is so big, so well built, so much more universe beyond the story, hinted at in songs and references, and language. Then you read The Silmarillion and it's like, oh there's the rest of the universe.

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So I'm not the only one who disliked Rogue One!

by Cody Miller, Dinklebot - Never Forget, Saturday, April 15, 2017, 09:20 (43 days ago) @ Blackt1g3r

A few friends have read the script. I only asked them if it would be good, and every single one said that the direction the story was taking was very cool, and that it could absolutely rock. With Rian Johnson directing, I am super optimistic for this one.

Star Wars: The Last Jedi Trailer

by Kahzgul, Friday, April 14, 2017, 13:40 (43 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Love the Luke line at the... End.

I'm excited!!!

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Meh

by Schedonnardus @, Texas, Friday, April 14, 2017, 18:03 (43 days ago) @ cheapLEY

That trailer did nothing for me. I'll still watch it, but nothing in that trailer made me excited for it.

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Same.

by Funkmon @, Friday, April 14, 2017, 21:02 (43 days ago) @ Schedonnardus

Red and white is new alien planet trend. Star trek started it, now Star Wars. I bet Stargate will have this soon, followed by other sci Fi franchises with star in the title.

Red and White (and Black)

by Kahzgul, Saturday, April 15, 2017, 00:31 (43 days ago) @ Funkmon

The most visually powerful triad of colors is Red, White, and Black. If you want to make something visually stunning, you use those colors for the greatest effect. It makes sense that you'd use shots composed primarily of those colors in a trailer, since you're trying to be eye catching.

You're just very savvy consumers who have come to recognize the patterns and thus are developing immunity to it.

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MacAddict Magazine

by Beorn @, San Francisco, Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 10:53 (40 days ago) @ Kahzgul

The most A visually powerful triad of colors is Red, White, and Black. If you want to make something visually stunning, you use those colors for the greatest effect.

Fixed that for ya; stating that there is “one true color triad” is just silly. Maybe “garish” isn’t the same as “visually powerful,” but back in the day, MacAddict Magazine was all about eye-catching:

[image] [image] [image] [image]

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I owned / own those.

by Ragashingo ⌂ @, Texas | day/night cycle is not cannon, Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 11:14 (40 days ago) @ Beorn

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ditto

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 12:25 (40 days ago) @ Ragashingo

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I remember when that magazine was good

by Blackt1g3r @, Kansas City, MO, Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 12:47 (39 days ago) @ Beorn

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Cool! They named a magazine after me!

by MacAddictXIV, Seattle WA, Wednesday, April 19, 2017, 11:59 (39 days ago) @ Beorn

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Red and White (and Black)

by Korny ⌂ @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 11:10 (40 days ago) @ Kahzgul
edited by Korny, Tuesday, April 18, 2017, 11:14

The most visually powerful triad of colors is Red, White, and Black. If you want to make something visually stunning, you use those colors for the greatest effect. It makes sense that you'd use shots composed primarily of those colors in a trailer, since you're trying to be eye catching.

We picked up Persona 5. Never played any other game in the series, so I'm not familiar with their color schemes, but the red/white/black that was used heavily in the marketing is actually integrated in everything from the artwork to the menus. You'd think something so blatant would stick out for sure, but visually I don't recall anything doing that in recent years, so I haven't "become" immune to it from a marketing perspective, but I did always catch the orange and teal approach. I dunno. The Star Wars trailer looked more orange and gray to me...

And heck, even their marketing isn't quite as loaded with it as the game is, surprisingly enough (besides scenes from the intro):

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Am I a bad person if I say that ...

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, April 17, 2017, 08:07 (41 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I'm a little bit more excited by the Battlefront II trailer?

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Nope. Same here!

by breitzen @, Kansas, Monday, April 17, 2017, 08:15 (41 days ago) @ Kermit

Although I'm still really excited for Ep. 8.

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Yes

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Wednesday, April 19, 2017, 11:01 (39 days ago) @ Kermit

You should be a LOT more excited at this stage. :p

Will we finally get another TIE Fighter-like "the Empire did nothing wrong" few missions?

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