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Are video games better without stories? (Gaming)

by Schooly D, TSD Gaming Condo, TX, Wednesday, April 26, 2017, 01:37 (2556 days ago)

Hmmm?

Admin note: This got caught in the spam filter. Maybe try adding some, you know, conversation with your link next time. ;-)

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Are video games better without stories?

by ManKitten, The Stugotz is strong in me., Wednesday, April 26, 2017, 12:32 (2556 days ago) @ Schooly D

I've now typed 3 long responses and deleted them. It's just easier to say..

Yes. Video games are better without stories.

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Are video games better without stories?

by Schooly D, TSD Gaming Condo, TX, Wednesday, April 26, 2017, 12:44 (2556 days ago) @ Schooly D

Admin note: This got caught in the spam filter. Maybe try adding some, you know, conversation with your link next time. ;-)

Is this a joke? Literally every post I make gets caught in the spam filter. It's been happening for at least a year.

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Hah

by Beorn @, <End of Failed Timeline>, Thursday, April 27, 2017, 00:02 (2555 days ago) @ Schooly D

Admin note: This got caught in the spam filter. Maybe try adding some, you know, conversation with your link next time. ;-)


Is this a joke? Literally every post I make gets caught in the spam filter. It's been happening for at least a year.

Apparently. Just had to unflag this one too. Must be something about your connection; the check is run against a global spam-check system. Probably should take that spambot offline or something. ;)

Really, though… I know that connecting via some VPN services can cause flagging because other people have used those services to do illicit deeds, so there may be a flag somewhere for your IP block for something you didn't do. Maybe check your IP against an RBL blacklist service?

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No.

by cheapLEY @, Wednesday, April 26, 2017, 13:21 (2556 days ago) @ Schooly D

Patrick Klepek doesnt think so. Neither does Austin Walker.

I'm inclined to agree with them. I care less and less about challenging, unique gameplay and more and more about just having a good experience in a game world. I love The Witcher 3 for its story. There are tons of more mechanically interesting RPGs out there, but I don't like them as much. Mass Effect Andromeda is a deeply flawed game, but I really enjoy that universe and the story it tells. I'll always enjoy experiencing a good video game story more than watching a good movie.

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Are video games better without stories?

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Wednesday, April 26, 2017, 13:33 (2556 days ago) @ Schooly D

The Last of Us certainly tells a better story than middling novels and movies. It wouldn't be better without a story. Games are allowed to borrow from other mediums and also be something unique. It's when you try to compete between or compare different mediums that you get into trouble.

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Are video games better without stories?

by stabbim @, Des Moines, IA, USA, Wednesday, April 26, 2017, 15:33 (2556 days ago) @ Schooly D

I think it's a mistake to believe that there's a universal answer for all games.

Something like Mass Effect (campaign/story mode, ignoring ME3's multiplayer here) would absolutely be a lesser experience without the story. The memories I have of those games are almost entirely composed of story elements. I'll never forget that conversation with Sovereign on Virmire.

On the other hand, there are games that are best as just pure moment-to-moment mechanics. I spend a lot of my time in driving sims. Driving games DO get worse when you try to add a story, at least in my experience. But in my opinion, that has less to do with the story element specifically, and more to do with losing focus on what makes those games fun. What I mean to say is, adding story isn't the only way to ruin them - anything you add that takes focus away from what makes them fun will also ruin them. Need for Speed games try to add a narrative, and they just end up making things less interesting to me than something like Forza or Dirt Rally. But adding something else that isn't driving would also ruin them. Putting a Pipe Dream style minigame in the middle of a Dirt Rally stage would make it worse.

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+1

by BlackstarBSP, Wednesday, April 26, 2017, 16:21 (2556 days ago) @ stabbim

The right tool for the right job.

Are video games better without stories?

by Claude Errera @, Wednesday, April 26, 2017, 15:39 (2556 days ago) @ Schooly D

Worse yet, the very concept of a Holodeck-aspirational interactive story implies that the player should be able to exert agency upon the dramatic arc of the plot. The one serious effort to do this was an ambitious 2005 interactive drama called Façade, a one-act play with roughly the plot of Who’s Afraid of Virginia Woolf. It worked remarkably well—for a video game. But it was still easily undermined. One player, for example, pretended to be a zombie, saying nothing but “brains” until the game’s simulated couple threw him out.

This is stupid. This is like saying "Stories in novels are easily undermined - one reader chose to read every 3rd page, in reverse, starting at the end of the book."

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Are video games better without stories?

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, April 26, 2017, 16:24 (2556 days ago) @ Claude Errera
edited by Cody Miller, Wednesday, April 26, 2017, 16:30

Worse yet, the very concept of a Holodeck-aspirational interactive story implies that the player should be able to exert agency upon the dramatic arc of the plot. The one serious effort to do this was an ambitious 2005 interactive drama called Façade, a one-act play with roughly the plot of Who’s Afraid of Virginia Woolf. It worked remarkably well—for a video game. But it was still easily undermined. One player, for example, pretended to be a zombie, saying nothing but “brains” until the game’s simulated couple threw him out.

This is stupid. This is like saying "Stories in novels are easily undermined - one reader chose to read every 3rd page, in reverse, starting at the end of the book."

he actually may be on to something. It's not a problem now, because the actions we can do in games is quite limited. But as they expand, it would feel very strange if the game and narrative didn't respond to you choices.

It's an uncanny valley issue.

But even in the holodeck, there is a 'story'. It's the reason things are the way they are when you turn it on. When a dame walks in and wants to hire Picard as a private eye, that's story. So even on that level his article title is false.

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Definitely not.

by Kahzgul, Wednesday, April 26, 2017, 15:45 (2556 days ago) @ Schooly D

Can I say it? This author comes across as a pretentious ass and, frankly, seems to be ignorant of the concept of "fun."

He's cherry-picking example games to illustrate his thesis that the narrative of a video game is not as compelling as the masterpieces of literature. He's sticking to smaller, indie games such as Gone Home as "groundbreaking" but ignoring the fact that a smaller games present the player with less time to weave a complicated narrative worthy of his praise. Gone home is completable in a matter of minutes (though a typical first run will take about 2 hours). Precious few books of note are readable, in their entirety, in that timetable. Furthermore, these are actually, I feel, poor examples of the value of video games as an immersive experience. The Last of Us is a much stronger entry. While the gameplay is decent to good, the narrative is excellent and both makes you feel as if you have a hand in the fate of the characters and allows you to step outside of them to judge and understand their actions from your own, somewhat omniscient perspective.

It seems, from the bloviating in this article, that the author is incapable of experiencing a sense of immersion while playing, and has never developed an emotional bond with the characters he plays. I have loved me some books, to be sure, but I have never enjoyed a book as much as I have enjoyed strangling Makarov at the end of Modern Warfare 3. I have been scared while watching a movie, but i have never stopped watching a scary movie out of fear in the same way that I said "oh HELL NO" during Silent Hill 2, thrown the controller across the room, powered off the console without saving, and taken a long, comforting shower. Reading this article made me wonder, in all sincerity, if the author suffers from some sort of undiagnosed spectrum disorder, because his inability to connect with the characters in gaming was evident in every utterance.

He says Gone Home is a teen novel at best, and - as a result - video games are incapable of compelling narrative. That's like saying Twilight is a teen novel, literally, and - as a result - books are incapable of compelling narrative. It's absurd and illogical. The comparisons made are, frankly, terrible and uneven. Video games display a level of exploration and wonder than books and films are incapable of. Morrowind, for example, can we wandered around for hours, simply observing the characters, examining their books and items, and marveling in the completeness of the environment. Books and movies are incapable of letting the player interact in this way, and yet that fact, under no circumstances, means that books and movies are less capable of compelling narrative or story-telling worth. They are different mediums, and should be examined as such and on their own merits. Not every story in one form will translate well to another. But the strength of literally putting the player in the shoes of the character, thinking the player's own thoughts and making the player's own decisions throughout the story... This is unique to video games and is rooted, fundamentally, in the narrative elements of those games, not the gameplay.

The author here has missed the boat completely. I dare say he has spent all of the time writing that entire essay where he could simply have said "I don't understand video games."

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Are video games better without stories?

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, April 26, 2017, 16:22 (2556 days ago) @ Schooly D

The answer is emphatically no.

The author uses the example of the bioshock audio logs, and argues they don't affect the action. But they do. They provide context for the action. It makes the action meaningful within the game world.

Imagine everything about the last of us being he same, except the story was stripped. Literally every level the same, but no story. Imagining it? Then ask the question the author did. And you'll see it's obviously a worse experience.

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Are video games better without stories?

by ManKitten, The Stugotz is strong in me., Wednesday, April 26, 2017, 17:41 (2556 days ago) @ Cody Miller


Imagine everything about the last of us being he same, except the story was stripped. Literally every level the same, but no story. Imagining it? Then ask the question the author did. And you'll see it's obviously a worse experience.

Either I'm just not getting this conversation or I'm coming at it from a different viewpoint. Maybe the word that is throwing me off is "better". Better than what...video games without stories? You have to consider the point of the game.

Look at Mario. Does it have a story? A princess was kidnapped and you have to save her. I wouldn't call that a story, it's a reason. Mario is an awesome game but the point of if wasn't to tell a story. There are tons of great games that fall into this category of having a reason instead of a story.

In this modern time of video games, it seems you HAVE to have a story. Everything has to have a reason and a narrative to explain why you are doing something. Most of the time, either the story OR the game play suffers. They have to bend one of those to fit the other. Halo is the only game I've played that nailed it on game play AND story. A close second is Assassins Creed Ezio Trilogy, and even then the game play was monotonous and cut/paste. When you strip away the cutscenes and in-between items, every game has the same principle. Start level, play level, end level, receive instruction, repeat...whether it's Mario, Halo, Assassin's Creed...that's how video games work.

It's a video game...the primary function is to be a video game. If it has a great story...that's awesome but it doesn't necessarily make it "better". So in a current time where game makers are focusing so hard on a story, instead of game play, I say...

Yes, video games are [WERE] better without stories.
Bring back reasons.

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Are video games better without stories?

by stabbim @, Des Moines, IA, USA, Wednesday, April 26, 2017, 19:23 (2556 days ago) @ ManKitten

Either I'm just not getting this conversation or I'm coming at it from a different viewpoint.

I think so. You seem to be arguing against the idea that stories necessarily make ALL games better. Which I agree with, and sort of said as part of my post.

But the actual statement made at the beginning of all this was that games are better without trying to have good narratives. The implication was that ALL games are lessened by trying to tell stories. I don't think people arguing against that are necessarily saying that every game has to try to be a movie. Just saying that the blanket statement the article made is wrong.

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Are video games better without stories?

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, April 26, 2017, 20:26 (2555 days ago) @ ManKitten

In this modern time of video games, it seems you HAVE to have a story. Everything has to have a reason and a narrative to explain why you are doing something.

Because you are in really realistic immersive worlds! You aren't in abstract pixel forests anymore. You are in worlds which are modeled so well they at first glance appear to be alive. Because the aesthetics are much better nowadays, your brain is more convinced you are there. And so, you need a reason to be there.

Aesthetics, mechanics, and story are all intertwined.

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Flappy bird

by Funkmon @, Wednesday, April 26, 2017, 20:49 (2555 days ago) @ Cody Miller

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Was better when it was called "balloon kid" and had a story

by Kahzgul, Wednesday, April 26, 2017, 21:41 (2555 days ago) @ Funkmon

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Fine, Geometry Wars

by Funkmon @, Wednesday, April 26, 2017, 22:08 (2555 days ago) @ Kahzgul

Don't claim Robotron was better than Geometry Wars bro.

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It's literally in the name

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Thursday, April 27, 2017, 19:23 (2555 days ago) @ Funkmon

Geometric shapes going all out against something!

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Are video games better without stories?

by ManKitten, The Stugotz is strong in me., Wednesday, April 26, 2017, 22:11 (2555 days ago) @ Cody Miller

In this modern time of video games, it seems you HAVE to have a story. Everything has to have a reason and a narrative to explain why you are doing something.


Because you are in really realistic immersive worlds! You aren't in abstract pixel forests anymore. You are in worlds which are modeled so well they at first glance appear to be alive. Because the aesthetics are much better nowadays, your brain is more convinced you are there. And so, you need a reason to be there.

Aesthetics, mechanics, and story are all intertwined.

This is another thought I had. Have video games evolved past the days of sitting on the couch and playing a while? Does everything have to be an experience? Is this better? Know what game I've been playing lately? Red Ball 4 on my phone.

I guess I'm officially now, I'm complaining about back in my day.

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I like this topic.

by ProbablyLast, Wednesday, April 26, 2017, 18:31 (2556 days ago) @ Schooly D

Mostly how it confirms that The Last of Us plays poorly.

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I like this topic.

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Wednesday, April 26, 2017, 19:29 (2555 days ago) @ ProbablyLast

Mostly how it confirms that The Last of Us plays poorly.

I disagree. The aim assist is poor in the early part of the game, but that fit with the learning curve the characters were experiencing.

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I like this topic.

by Kahzgul, Wednesday, April 26, 2017, 21:46 (2555 days ago) @ Kermit

Mostly how it confirms that The Last of Us plays poorly.


I disagree. The aim assist is poor in the early part of the game, but that fit with the learning curve the characters were experiencing.

Nope, I gotta say, the actual player control in LoU was pretty bad at points. It seemed clear to me that some areas were created before the mechanics were nailed down, and they were never really gone back over and cleaned up. That tutorial bit of throwing the cans at the beginning.. UGH. Half of the walls in that room couldn't be used as cover, and if they were, wouldn't let the player out of cover after using them. It's not so much actual poor gameplay as a square peg-round hole problem. Portions of the game try to force you to play in a way that the game mechanics don't support. That one hallway in the college with a bunch of bad guys was painful. I'm sure you know the one. Fortunately, most of the game gave you enough of an area to move around in that the gameplay shined, but some of those areas... so bad.

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I like this topic.

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Wednesday, April 26, 2017, 21:51 (2555 days ago) @ Kahzgul

Mostly how it confirms that The Last of Us plays poorly.


I disagree. The aim assist is poor in the early part of the game, but that fit with the learning curve the characters were experiencing.


Nope, I gotta say, the actual player control in LoU was pretty bad at points. It seemed clear to me that some areas were created before the mechanics were nailed down, and they were never really gone back over and cleaned up. That tutorial bit of throwing the cans at the beginning.. UGH. Half of the walls in that room couldn't be used as cover, and if they were, wouldn't let the player out of cover after using them. It's not so much actual poor gameplay as a square peg-round hole problem. Portions of the game try to force you to play in a way that the game mechanics don't support. That one hallway in the college with a bunch of bad guys was painful. I'm sure you know the one. Fortunately, most of the game gave you enough of an area to move around in that the gameplay shined, but some of those areas... so bad.

I think the problem with TLoU from a mechanical point of view is that it's a fantastic stealth game, but a poor-to-mediocre shooter. But it presents itself as a sort of 50/50 split. My first playthrough was on normal, and I had all the same complaints with the shooting and combat mechanics as many others have expressed. But my 2nd playthrough was on the "Insanse" difficulty setting, and it's a completely different game. You get so few resources and so little ammo that it takes the shooter aspects of the game out of the equation. You literally can't play the game as a shooter because there aren't nearly enough bullets. It forces you to treat it as a hardcore stealth game, and it works beautifully that way. I appreciated the encounter design on a whole new level.

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Yes! Completely agree.

by Kahzgul, Thursday, April 27, 2017, 19:48 (2554 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

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I like this topic.

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Wednesday, April 26, 2017, 22:42 (2555 days ago) @ Kahzgul

Mostly how it confirms that The Last of Us plays poorly.


I disagree. The aim assist is poor in the early part of the game, but that fit with the learning curve the characters were experiencing.


That tutorial bit of throwing the cans at the beginning.. UGH.

That's funny. I have no memory of that.

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Well, Destiny had no story and is a big hit, so.........

by Schedonnardus, Texas, Wednesday, April 26, 2017, 19:30 (2555 days ago) @ Schooly D

;)

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Better?

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Thursday, April 27, 2017, 02:44 (2555 days ago) @ Schooly D

Are video games better without stories?

---------------??????------------------
---------------more fun----------------
---------------easier to play----------
---------------prettier----------------
---------------less expensive----------

Would SUPER.HOT.SUPER.HOT.SUPER.HOT... or Fruit Ninja or Candy Crush be ?better? with a story? Conversely would a game series like Half Life 1, 2, or

Error HL3_gaben_simulink.c: 2222  Division by zero 
Error HL3_gaben_simulink.c: 2224  Division by zero 
Error HL3_gaben_simulink.c: 2999  Division by zero 

be better with out the story? How 'bout Bioshock, or Dues Ex, or...shoot, even Halo, be better with out a story?

Then... lets really flip this question on its head! Pong. THE STORY! YEA! Because... that's needed.

Know what I think? I think this topic is bullshit. It's veiled clickbait, or at least it really feels that way to me.

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+1

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Thursday, April 27, 2017, 05:30 (2555 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

This is one of those topics that has the initial appearance of being "deep", but becomes more rediculous the more you think about it, IMO.

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+1.1

by ManKitten, The Stugotz is strong in me., Thursday, April 27, 2017, 10:49 (2555 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

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+1

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, April 27, 2017, 11:27 (2555 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

This is one of those topics that has the initial appearance of being "deep", but becomes more rediculous the more you think about it, IMO.

Only when you think about it simplistically. In the future it's going to be super important. Story will become more important, but the role of story and its structure will change dramatically.

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+1

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Thursday, April 27, 2017, 12:45 (2555 days ago) @ Cody Miller

This is one of those topics that has the initial appearance of being "deep", but becomes more rediculous the more you think about it, IMO.


Only when you think about it simplistically. In the future it's going to be super important. Story will become more important, but the role of story and its structure will change dramatically.

I totally agree... what I mean is that the "games are better without story" argument falls on its face pretty quickly when it's presented as a sweeping declaration. Some games obviously don't need story, and that's great. Other games obviously do use storytelling to help create amazing experiences.

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+1

by Harmanimus @, Thursday, April 27, 2017, 20:05 (2554 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

I think it is also important to note that if a quality narrative were applied to games that are already mechanically sound, all things being the same otherwise, then that quality narrative will improve the overall package. However, I don't think the inverse is true.

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It will either happen organically or games will disappear

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Thursday, April 27, 2017, 19:28 (2554 days ago) @ Cody Miller

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Are video games better without stories?

by General Battuta, Thursday, April 27, 2017, 13:15 (2555 days ago) @ Schooly D

The article wants stories that could only be told as games. That's a great criterion! Let's check 'em out

SMAC (your reactions to the game's pervasive fiction and semiscripted story drive your decisions about how humanity evolves)

Deus Ex (the player's ability to explore and alter the environment also alters the presentation of the story and its themes)

FreeSpace 2 (the player's narrative position deprivileges their role in the story, forcing them to view the story from 'below', like a bug)

Homeworld (the player's omniscient viewpoint positions them as God charged with the survival of the exiles, complicit in every death)

CODBLOPS2 (the story branches in reaction to your performance without actively signposting key branchpoints: reaction is naturalistic)

Alpha Protocol (as above but less polished but wayyy more ambitious)

Spec Ops: The Line (the player's 'coerced complicity' requires them to be a player, not a reader: the game forces them to make a terrible choice because they are present in a terrible situation, and the situation overrides personal agency: the only Right act is to never enter the situation)

I dunno, that's off the top of my head: none of these games would be better without stories.

Hang on a second I've got one more

Halo (the linear, scripted narrative works with the game's levels, art design, music, animation, and AI to create a unified context for the core gameplay, adding motive and resonance to basic beats like shooting an Elite or landing on Halo)

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Are video games better without stories?

by cheapLEY @, Thursday, April 27, 2017, 13:33 (2555 days ago) @ General Battuta

Spec Ops: The Line (the player's 'coerced complicity' requires them to be a player, not a reader: the game forces them to make a terrible choice because they are present in a terrible situation, and the situation overrides personal agency: the only Right act is to never enter the situation)

Both this game and Bioshock (the first) never worked for me the way it did for others. I can appreciate what the game is doing, but I just don't like it. The game forces you do terrible things and then goes "Look how awful you were for doing those things" at the end. The white phosphorous scene looses all impact and credibility when the game literally gives you no other alternative. Spec Ops is an example of bad video game story telling in my opinion--it removes players agency to the point that you might as well just be watching a movie of the same story.

Bioshock works better, in that it at least doesn't paint you as the "bad guy" in the end, necessarily, and it does at least make the player question why they did the things they did, just because some guy on the radio told them to.

Fary Cry 4 pulls it off better, I think, then both of them. By actually waiting for Pagan Min to return at the beginning of the game, you get to go spread your mother's ashes and the game ends, avoiding all the heinous shit you would do otherwise. Even that feels a bit . . . I don't know what word to put there, actually. Pretentious? That doesn't quite fit, but I guess it works. Like, I didn't buy Far Cry 4 to spread some ashes--I bought it to rampage through the country-side, shoot things, take over bases, and just cause chaos. The developer trying to insert some message about that being bad comes off as weird, as they're the ones that make the games that allow me to do that.

In any case, I hate Spec Ops. I guess I can respect the fact that they probably realized they were making a mediocre shooter and decided to do something interesting with it, but I don't think it worked very well, and I think it's a terrible example of a story that can only be told as a video game.

Are video games better without stories?

by General Battuta, Thursday, April 27, 2017, 13:39 (2555 days ago) @ cheapLEY
edited by General Battuta, Thursday, April 27, 2017, 13:42

Spec Ops: The Line (the player's 'coerced complicity' requires them to be a player, not a reader: the game forces them to make a terrible choice because they are present in a terrible situation, and the situation overrides personal agency: the only Right act is to never enter the situation)


Both this game and Bioshock (the first) never worked for me the way it did for others. I can appreciate what the game is doing, but I just don't like it. The game forces you do terrible things and then goes "Look how awful you were for doing those things" at the end. The white phosphorous scene looses all impact and credibility when the game literally gives you no other alternative. Spec Ops is an example of bad video game story telling in my opinion--it removes players agency to the point that you might as well just be watching a movie of the same story.

Reread what I said about it. You have no agency because you have chosen to enter a devastated wartorn city and involve yourself in the local conflicts (i.e. you have chosen to play a war game). Some situations - like war - cannot be resolved with your moral agency intact. The only purely Right choice is to never enter the situation.

This story can only be told as a video game because only in a video game is the player the one who experiences the crushing absence of moral alternatives, rather than the story's protagonist.

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Are video games better without stories?

by cheapLEY @, Thursday, April 27, 2017, 13:47 (2555 days ago) @ General Battuta

Reread what I said about it. You have no agency because you have chosen to enter a devastated wartorn city and involve yourself in the local conflicts (i.e. you have chosen to play a war game). Some situations - like war - cannot be resolved with your moral agency intact. The only purely Right choice is to never enter the situation.

Okay, sure. That means the only right act is to not play the game, defeating the purpose of a video game. I get what it's angling for, it just doesn't work in the context of what a video game is. Of course I'm going to do what you tell me to do, that's sort of how video games work. There's an understood rule where I buy into whatever the game is selling to move it along and see what's happening--throwing that back in my face and saying, "look how bad you were, you shouldn't have done that" isn't exactly compelling. The thing is, I don't even think what they were trying to do was bad--it was just executed poorly, in that it's predictable. Again, the white phosphorous scene really stands out. When I (the player) can clearly see the big crowd of people are unarmed and not shooting at me, but the game forces me to kill them anyway, all sense of illusion is gone, and I immediately know what the game is trying to do. That completely kills the impact of the entire rest of the game for me.

Are video games better without stories?

by General Battuta, Thursday, April 27, 2017, 13:51 (2555 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Reread what I said about it. You have no agency because you have chosen to enter a devastated wartorn city and involve yourself in the local conflicts (i.e. you have chosen to play a war game). Some situations - like war - cannot be resolved with your moral agency intact. The only purely Right choice is to never enter the situation.


Okay, sure. That means the only right act is to not play the game, defeating the purpose of a video game. I get what it's angling for, it just doesn't work in the context of what a video game is. Of course I'm going to do what you tell me to do, that's sort of how video games work. There's an understood rule where I buy into whatever the game is selling to move it along and see what's happening--throwing that back in my face and saying, "look how bad you were, you shouldn't have done that" isn't exactly compelling. The thing is, I don't even think what they were trying to do was bad--it was just executed poorly, in that it's predictable. Again, the white phosphorous scene really stands out. When I (the player) can clearly see the big crowd of people are unarmed and not shooting at me, but the game forces me to kill them anyway, all sense of illusion is gone, and I immediately know what the game is trying to do. That completely kills the impact of the entire rest of the game for me.

I don't disagree, I think it's mean-spirited and wouldn't replay it.

But I don't think it is self-defeating. It's a successful story that can only be told as a video game. You say it yourself:

"There's an understood rule where I buy into whatever the game is selling to move it along and see what's happening--throwing that back in my face and saying, "look how bad you were, you shouldn't have done that" isn't exactly compelling."

The game is questioning this rule. Why do you want to play a game about war? Why are you willing to do whatever is necessary to keep the linear story moving? If you saw a large crowd of unarmed people, why did you do it? You should have turned the game off.

It's a video game take on Funny Games, and just as that movie depends on being a movie (the villain literally rewinds the movie with a remote control to prevent his victims from beating him), Spec Ops asks you why you're playing a game about war. It is necessary that it be predictable, because if you couldn't predict what was coming, you would not have the choice to turn away and refuse to cooperate.

Once you have chosen to invade Iraq, you cannot protest that the situation forced you to do hideous things. You chose to enter a hideous situation. This is Spec Ops' central comment, and it can only be made effectively in a game.

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Are video games better without stories?

by cheapLEY @, Thursday, April 27, 2017, 13:58 (2555 days ago) @ General Battuta

Actually, you're right. I really never thought of it like that. I still don't like it though.

The game is questioning this rule. Why do you want to play a game about war? Why are you willing to do whatever is necessary to keep the linear story moving? If you saw a large crowd of unarmed people, why did you do it? You should have turned the game off.

That's what bothers me. That's just not a compelling message or story for me. Why didn't I turn the game off? Because I paid sixty dollars for the fucking thing, and everyone else apparently loves it, so I'll slog through it.

I guess I just don't like the real-world side of it. Here, pay us $60 for this so we can tell you bad you are for playing the fucking thing.

Are video games better without stories?

by General Battuta, Thursday, April 27, 2017, 13:59 (2555 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Yeah, it's for sure a bit mean-spirited and pedantic. But I do think it's a story that successfully does what it set out to do, even if that goal's abrasive. And I think it can only be told as a game.

Are video games better without stories?

by Claude Errera @, Thursday, April 27, 2017, 15:17 (2555 days ago) @ General Battuta

The game is questioning this rule. Why do you want to play a game about war? Why are you willing to do whatever is necessary to keep the linear story moving? If you saw a large crowd of unarmed people, why did you do it? You should have turned the game off.

Well, there's the obvious answer of "I'm not a psychopath, but I've been told all my life that war is hell, and games about war are as close as I can come to seeing what that really means without actually participating."

It's sort of like sniffing the carton of milk someone has just handed you and told you is sour. You KNOW you're not going to like what's coming next, but you sort of want to see how bad it really is.

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Are video games better without stories?

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, April 27, 2017, 15:38 (2555 days ago) @ Claude Errera

Well, there's the obvious answer of "I'm not a psychopath, but I've been told all my life that war is hell, and games about war are as close as I can come to seeing what that really means without actually participating."

This is obviously wrong. War games are super fun. If war is Hell, then games aren't very close to that. I've never played Spec Ops the Line, but the 'twist' seems ridiculous on face value if the game itself is actually fun.

Are video games better without stories?

by EffortlessFury @, Friday, April 28, 2017, 15:36 (2554 days ago) @ Claude Errera

The game is questioning this rule. Why do you want to play a game about war? Why are you willing to do whatever is necessary to keep the linear story moving? If you saw a large crowd of unarmed people, why did you do it? You should have turned the game off.


Well, there's the obvious answer of "I'm not a psychopath, but I've been told all my life that war is hell, and games about war are as close as I can come to seeing what that really means without actually participating."

It's sort of like sniffing the carton of milk someone has just handed you and told you is sour. You KNOW you're not going to like what's coming next, but you sort of want to see how bad it really is.

Then on the flip, you are now experiencing the hell of having to make amoral decisions in a war zone, decisions real military personnel face all the time.

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Are video games better without stories?

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, April 27, 2017, 15:37 (2555 days ago) @ General Battuta

Spec Ops asks you why you're playing a game about war.

Because games about war are awesome.

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Are video games better without stories?

by Harmanimus @, Friday, April 28, 2017, 20:02 (2553 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I think your comment regarding Far Cry 4 is actually missing a lot of what occurs and the presented context. In the core game you are given two dark gray morality tracks you can explore along side your mass murder and violent rebellion. In the context of the Crab Rangoon ending, you are technically present with a third dark gray morality choice, as while you achieve your original purpose, it is immediately followed by a helicopter ride to go commit mass murder and violence against rebelliong.

I think it is disingenuous to claim that most of he games deconstructing player agency within the narrative are attempting to insult the players or that they are somehow bad stories to tell. Bioshock, specifically, deconstructs many things beyond just player acceptance of violence in narrative. Jack is sympathetic in regard to the actions he takes and it is central to the discourse of the individual v. group that is core to the games plot. I think suggesting it is a case of mocking the player for being complicit totally skips over almost all the games value.

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Are video games better without stories?

by cheapLEY @, Friday, April 28, 2017, 20:21 (2553 days ago) @ Harmanimus

I think it is disingenuous to claim that most of he games deconstructing player agency within the narrative are attempting to insult the players or that they are somehow bad stories to tell. Bioshock, specifically, deconstructs many things beyond just player acceptance of violence in narrative. Jack is sympathetic in regard to the actions he takes and it is central to the discourse of the individual v. group that is core to the games plot. I think suggesting it is a case of mocking the player for being complicit totally skips over almost all the games value.

That might be true. I have no problem admitting that I probably missed a lot of the nuance in that game's story. That game was boring as hell from a gameplay perspective, so I tuned out pretty quickly (but still somehow finished the game).

I can at least accept that Bioshock doesn't really talk down to you like I think Spec Ops does.

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Are video games better without stories?

by Harmanimus @, Friday, April 28, 2017, 23:34 (2553 days ago) @ cheapLEY

And while my experience with Spec Ops, I didn't feel talked down to, I can totally see how it could come across that way. Though I do feel that may be a factor coming from the inspirations and less so a testament to quality expression through player action. In the way a book or movie makes someone curious to the thoughts of a character, sometimes choices in game design are counter to getting people curious. As the character is treated as something the player fills in or otherwise is simply a tool of gameplay.

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Are video games better without stories?

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Thursday, April 27, 2017, 13:36 (2555 days ago) @ General Battuta


Halo (the linear, scripted narrative works with the game's levels, art design, music, animation, and AI to create a unified context for the core gameplay, adding motive and resonance to basic beats like shooting an Elite or landing on Halo)

That last parenthetical encapsulates my hopes for Destiny 2.

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+1 more linear please.

by dogcow @, Hiding from Bob, in the vent core., Thursday, April 27, 2017, 15:00 (2555 days ago) @ Kermit

- No text -

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Are video games better without stories?

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, April 27, 2017, 13:54 (2555 days ago) @ General Battuta

You forgot Metal Gear Solid 2.

Are video games better without stories?

by General Battuta, Thursday, April 27, 2017, 13:58 (2555 days ago) @ Cody Miller

You forgot Metal Gear Solid 2.

Truth. Also 3. Also Revengeance! A very well written game.

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Are video games better without stories?

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, April 27, 2017, 15:35 (2555 days ago) @ General Battuta

You forgot Metal Gear Solid 2.


Truth. Also 3. Also Revengeance! A very well written game.

Nah, 3 could have easily been done in a film.

Are video games better without stories?

by General Battuta, Thursday, April 27, 2017, 17:08 (2555 days ago) @ Cody Miller

You forgot Metal Gear Solid 2.


Truth. Also 3. Also Revengeance! A very well written game.


Nah, 3 could have easily been done in a film.

Rly tho? Advancing the clock to kill The End? The Sorrow's ghost river and taking the revive pill? Pulling the trigger yourself at the end? Those aren't very filmic.

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Are video games better without stories?

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, April 27, 2017, 18:29 (2555 days ago) @ General Battuta

You forgot Metal Gear Solid 2.


Truth. Also 3. Also Revengeance! A very well written game.


Nah, 3 could have easily been done in a film.


Rly tho? Advancing the clock to kill The End? The Sorrow's ghost river and taking the revive pill? Pulling the trigger yourself at the end? Those aren't very filmic.

Those are all kind of… gimicks. They don't really have anything to do with the story itself.

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