One month, 2 Raids per week, no check point yet.

No rewards either. I think something is not right about this Raid.

Yes, we are quite old and take longer to learn the mechanics. It sure would have been nice if check points were easier to come by. Although we are getting better at the Castellum we still experience at least 1-2 wipes and it is quite a time waster given the lack of rewards and no check point.

I'm not happy. Bungie, I blame you. Vehemently!

Royal pools has no game world logic. You stand on plates torturing yourself to raise up sumo cabal bathers only to then shoot at lanterns. Why do bathers ride chain elevators anyway? So dumb.

Gauntlet, we are squirrels in a cage. This is so dumb. For some people, looking through a red shield wall to see another in-discernable colour is torture, plain and simple.

Pleasure Gardens, really, you had to add fog? Dogs howl, we hide in a closet until they forget we are there? Who is dumber, the dogs or us for even trying?

The only part we did blind was Castellum. It's the only section of the Raid so far that makes any kind of game sense. I give it 8/10 for action.

Bungie, I hope you feel bad for torturing old people.

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Is there anything in particular that is messing you up on each encounter? Maybe we can help with some tips/suggestions?

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Is there anything in particular that is messing you up on each encounter? Maybe we can help with some tips/suggestions?

We've been watching the vids and one member has had successes with another group. The issues are related to the whole team being older. We need more advantages that come with time, repetition and experience. Lack of a proper check point system has made repetition less frequent.

Once we all hit 305 we will have a better chance. Nothing like having more time to think while working out mechanics.

Thanks for the offer of help. :)

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Is there anything in particular that is messing you up on each encounter? Maybe we can help with some tips/suggestions?

We've been watching the vids and one member has had successes with another group. The issues are related to the whole team being older. We need more advantages that come with time, repetition and experience. Lack of a proper check point system has made repetition less frequent.

Once we all hit 305 we will have a better chance. Nothing like having more time to think while working out mechanics.

Thanks for the offer of help. :)

I’ve only done the raid a couple times so far, so I could be mistaken... but aren’t there checkpoints after every major encounter, just like the previous raids?

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Is there anything in particular that is messing you up on each encounter? Maybe we can help with some tips/suggestions?

We've been watching the vids and one member has had successes with another group. The issues are related to the whole team being older. We need more advantages that come with time, repetition and experience. Lack of a proper check point system has made repetition less frequent.

Once we all hit 305 we will have a better chance. Nothing like having more time to think while working out mechanics.

Thanks for the offer of help. :)

I’ve only done the raid a couple times so far, so I could be mistaken... but aren’t there checkpoints after every major encounter, just like the previous raids?

None after Castellum and we haven't finished any other section. I am aware of some kind of workaround for the initial Castellum section but our first foray below the Castle was kind of painful.

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None after Castellum and we haven't finished any other section. I am aware of some kind of workaround for the initial Castellum section but our first foray below the Castle was kind of painful.

I'm confused. I'm almost positive you get a checkpoint after each main encounter. If you don't know your way around the underbelly, you have to do the Castellum again, but you don't have to redo encounters you already completed.

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None after Castellum and we haven't finished any other section. I am aware of some kind of workaround for the initial Castellum section but our first foray below the Castle was kind of painful.

I'm confused. I'm almost positive you get a checkpoint after each main encounter. If you don't know your way around the underbelly, you have to do the Castellum again, but you don't have to redo encounters you already completed.

The only thing we've managed to complete is the Castlellum.

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None after Castellum and we haven't finished any other section. I am aware of some kind of workaround for the initial Castellum section but our first foray below the Castle was kind of painful.

I'm confused. I'm almost positive you get a checkpoint after each main encounter. If you don't know your way around the underbelly, you have to do the Castellum again, but you don't have to redo encounters you already completed.

The only thing we've managed to complete is the Castlellum.

Stand on the standards to get the force of will buff. You will do way more damage, so do that if you feel unable to take out enemies.

You do not need to complete the Castlellum in order to move on to the next challenge. You can sneak in through the underbelly. Try that instead. There are maps on the internet to help you, or you can explore and follow the symbols to lead you to the next applicable challenge.

You should do the Castlellum at least once though, since you get a drop. After that it is only 500 glimmer. Each challenge has an exit to the underbelly, so you could potentially do it without ever stepping foot back in the Castlellum.

Your checkpoints are saved after you beat each challenge.

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None after Castellum and we haven't finished any other section. I am aware of some kind of workaround for the initial Castellum section but our first foray below the Castle was kind of painful.

I misread your initial post and thought that you had finished later sections, so I guess you haven't gotten rewards? I actually didn't know you could get into the underbelly without having cleared one of the main encounters.

Having as much trouble as you're having with Castellum demands some analysis. I can't help but feel there's a flaw in your strategy. Our team has wiped attempting it, but usually not more than once. It really helps to efficiently use supers. Is one or more person forgetting to use them? (I'm asking as someone who forgets to.)

From one perspective, Bungie is (vehemently! as you put it) catering to a group such as yours--grown-ups with less flexible schedules and fingers. When I first heard about the encounter rotation, I didn't like it, but that was because I liked the option of waking up at reset time to save a checkpoint (an option I think I used only with King's Fall a few times).

The benefit of this rotation, though, is great. Less-than-hardcore raiders get practice doing the bulk of the raid over several weeks time. In the long-term this is fantastic for people like me. I tried to raid at least a little every week in D1. Sometimes our group didn't finish. The by-product overtime is that I always felt less comfortable with the later encounters because I had less practice with them. For a player like me, except for the final fight, this problem goes away. It's a great way to make raids more accessible to more casual players.

Kerm

P.S. all the stuff you say is dumb I love. Royals Pools is a cool variation of the square-dance-of-death finale of Wraith of the Machine, Pleasure Gardens is a nice spin on the Gorgon maze, and the Gauntlet is a nice, more forgiving revision of Oryx mechanics, sans the Taken (Hallelujah!)

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The benefit of this rotation, though, is great.

Yes, this change was good.

A checkpoint after Castellum would have made it much better. Not requiring Castellum in between subsequent encounters would be an excellent change too.

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The benefit of this rotation, though, is great.

Yes, this change was good.

A checkpoint after Castellum would have made it much better. Not requiring Castellum in between subsequent encounters would be an excellent change too.

You can bypass the Castlellum between challenges and use the underbelly to go to the next one. You can do it once for the initial drop, or not at all.

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The benefit of this rotation, though, is great.

Yes, this change was good.

A checkpoint after Castellum would have made it much better. Not requiring Castellum in between subsequent encounters would be an excellent change too.

You can bypass the Castlellum between challenges and use the underbelly to go to the next one. You can do it once for the initial drop, or not at all.

Does it actually save time?

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You can bypass the Castlellum between challenges and use the underbelly to go to the next one. You can do it once for the initial drop, or not at all.

Does it actually save time?

Depends on how well you know the underbelly. It’s not as large or confusing as it initially seems, but it takes time to learn the routes between all the encounters.

My group always just did the Castellum again as we didn’t know the underbelly well enough to not get lost.

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The benefit of this rotation, though, is great.

Yes, this change was good.

A checkpoint after Castellum would have made it much better. Not requiring Castellum in between subsequent encounters would be an excellent change too.

You can bypass the Castlellum between challenges and use the underbelly to go to the next one. You can do it once for the initial drop, or not at all.

Does it actually save time?

Ultimately, it depends on how long it is taking you to get through the Castlellum.

The underbelly is HUGE, and a total maze, and filled with stuff to do. Every time my raid groups go down into it, we end up spending more time there than we do in the rest of the raid. But a lot of that is due to getting lost. On the flip side, my groups have the Castlellum down to the point where we can clear it in about 5 minutes, first try. It might be possible to get through the underbelly that quickly, but it seems like a stretch to me. I suspect that the castlellum is ultimately the faster way to go, once you get the encounter worked out to the point where it isn't too much trouble for you anymore.

Either way, the underbelly is worth exploring at least once. It's like a whole other adventure, layered on top of (er...underneath?) the raid :)

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You can bypass the Castlellum between challenges and use the underbelly to go to the next one. You can do it once for the initial drop, or not at all.

Does it actually save time?

Ultimately, it depends on how long it is taking you to get through the Castlellum.

^ This. If the Castlellum is that much of a problem I suggest finding a map online and learning the paths through the underbelly.

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I misread your initial post and thought that you had finished later sections, so I guess you haven't gotten rewards? I actually didn't know you could get into the underbelly without having cleared one of the main encounters.

I can think of two ways off the top of my head. Both are fully supported methods put in place by Bungie. I think there is also at least a 3rd we haven't actually used.

Royals Pools is a cool variation of the square-dance-of-death finale of Wraith of the Machine

Nah. It's the Totems section of King's Fall with less wipes due to people forgetting about the tether. Well, at least that's how we thought of it on our World's First* run.

*World in this case is strictly limited to only include DBO clans. :p

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Royals Pools is a cool variation of the square-dance-of-death finale of Wraith of the Machine

Nah. It's the Totems section of King's Fall with less wipes due to people forgetting about the tether.

That’s where my brain went. So much so that during my first run through the raid with Peaksutah and Slycrel, we poked around with the encounter for a while and then the lightbulb went on over my head and I said “oh, it’s like the Totems” and we got through it in no time, lol

Although I’ve gotta say, “square-dance-of-death” is the most perfect description of that WotM encounter that I’ve ever heard :)

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Royals Pools is a cool variation of the square-dance-of-death finale of Wraith of the Machine

Nah. It's the Totems section of King's Fall with less wipes due to people forgetting about the tether.

That’s where my brain went. So much so that during my first run through the raid with Peaksutah and Slycrel, we poked around with the encounter for a while and then the lightbulb went on over my head and I said “oh, it’s like the Totems” and we got through it in no time, lol

Yeah, I was that guy in my group.

Although I’ve gotta say, “square-dance-of-death” is the most perfect description of that WotM encounter that I’ve ever heard :)

Yes. I say we vote Kermit to the official “Guy Who Describes Things” position. :)

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Royals Pools is a cool variation of the square-dance-of-death finale of Wraith of the Machine

Nah. It's the Totems section of King's Fall with less wipes due to people forgetting about the tether.

That’s where my brain went. So much so that during my first run through the raid with Peaksutah and Slycrel, we poked around with the encounter for a while and then the lightbulb went on over my head and I said “oh, it’s like the Totems” and we got through it in no time, lol

Although I’ve gotta say, “square-dance-of-death” is the most perfect description of that WotM encounter that I’ve ever heard :)

:) In my mind I was drawing an analogy between the captains and the bathers.

Now that you mention it, I think Chickens or someone mentioned Totems as a reference point when we were figuring out the pools section. It definitely was the easiest section to figure out for us.

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Now that you mention it, I think Chickens or someone mentioned Totems as a reference point when we were figuring out the pools section. It definitely was the easiest section to figure out for us.

Yup. This was what came to my mind. I did, for longer than I want to admit, entertain the idea that instead of two teams, you would have the whole team weaving in an out in a clockwise (or counterclockwise) formation but the timing was off. I thought that might be a deeper refinement of the totems, but, alas, it was basically just the totems and my brain wanted to make it more complex.

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P.S. all the stuff you say is dumb I love. Royals Pools is a cool variation of the square-dance-of-death finale of Wraith of the Machine, Pleasure Gardens is a nice spin on the Gorgon maze, and the Gauntlet is a nice, more forgiving revision of Oryx mechanics, sans the Taken (Hallelujah!)

I personally gave up on raid encounters making canonical sense with Kings Fall. I think we even talked about it quite a bit at the time here at DBO... the “gameyness” of King’s Fall’s encounters compared to VoG or Crota. And I think that’s ok, really. I have a soft spot for the way VoG pulled me into the universe and felt like a believable place within Destiny’s fiction, but at the end of the day I’m ok with sacrificing that in favour of fun mechanics.

And in defence of Leviathan, the whole thing is presented in-universe as an exercise in amusement. It certainly makes more sense than the KF dick-wall or the Death Zamboni in WotM :)

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P.S. all the stuff you say is dumb I love. Royals Pools is a cool variation of the square-dance-of-death finale of Wraith of the Machine, Pleasure Gardens is a nice spin on the Gorgon maze, and the Gauntlet is a nice, more forgiving revision of Oryx mechanics, sans the Taken (Hallelujah!)

I personally gave up on raid encounters making canonical sense with Kings Fall. I think we even talked about it quite a bit at the time here at DBO... the “gameyness” of King’s Fall’s encounters compared to VoG or Crota. And I think that’s ok, really. I have a soft spot for the way VoG pulled me into the universe and felt like a believable place within Destiny’s fiction, but at the end of the day I’m ok with sacrificing that in favour of fun mechanics.

And in defence of Leviathan, the whole thing is presented in-universe as an exercise in amusement. It certainly makes more sense than the KF dick-wall or the Death Zamboni in WotM :)

The Prison of Elders made even less sense… the Vex can teleport and go through time and space… but they choose to stay in the prison. Uh huh.

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P.S. all the stuff you say is dumb I love. Royals Pools is a cool variation of the square-dance-of-death finale of Wraith of the Machine, Pleasure Gardens is a nice spin on the Gorgon maze, and the Gauntlet is a nice, more forgiving revision of Oryx mechanics, sans the Taken (Hallelujah!)

I personally gave up on raid encounters making canonical sense with Kings Fall. I think we even talked about it quite a bit at the time here at DBO... the “gameyness” of King’s Fall’s encounters compared to VoG or Crota. And I think that’s ok, really. I have a soft spot for the way VoG pulled me into the universe and felt like a believable place within Destiny’s fiction, but at the end of the day I’m ok with sacrificing that in favour of fun mechanics.

And in defence of Leviathan, the whole thing is presented in-universe as an exercise in amusement. It certainly makes more sense than the KF dick-wall or the Death Zamboni in WotM :)

The Prison of Elders made even less sense… the Vex can teleport and go through time and space… but they choose to stay in the prison. Uh huh.

Speaking of that... I was recently re-reading an old post I'd written about how I would recreate PoE, and it reminded me more than a little bit of what we ended up getting with the Leviathan raid, lol. Just in a few minor ways :)

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The Prison of Elders made even less sense… the Vex can teleport and go through time and space… but they choose to stay in the prison. Uh huh.

When you have the ability to see across timelines and predict future outcomes things like this happen:

Qodron sees only its own glorious future. It has come to the Prison of Elders, with an army of devout Vex war-machines, to take what it believes to be its first steps toward that future.

This machine beast has only one mission. At some point a Light will shine within the walls of this Prison, and for its gloried future to unfold, that Light must die.

Qodron is not the prisoner here. You are, Guardian.

Tagline:

"It is no prisoner. It is here with a purpose."

Qodron, Gate Lord

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This makes Vex calculations about success rates when fighting us pretty meaningless, I'd imagine.

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You've gotten checkpoints and rewards. You just haven't figured out how to access them.

This old person loves the new raid, although I wouldn't say the Pleasure Gardens is aptly named.

I'm sorry if you haven't enjoyed it.

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If I'm reading this thread correctly, you are capable of completing the castellum (and you get rewards from the chest afterwards, so there's your rewards for doing it), but haven't cleared gardens, baths, or gauntlet yet? I hate to tell you, but castellum is not considered a "major" encounter in this raid. It's like an interstitial. The other encounters are the majors. Once you clear one of those, there will be a checkpoint.

Quick and dirty castellum tips:

- 2 people on offense, 4 on defense. Use your heavy ammo as needed, it drops like candy. Use good AoE supers. Try to chain your orbs. Be sure to kill counselors as soon as they appear. This is a pretty straightforward fight. Kill the standard bearers, carry the standards to the plate, repeat. The defenders keep the standard reclaimers from reaching the plate.

The other fights are not really about dps at all (you don't need light 305, by the way - anything above the light level of the enemies doesn't provide any additional bonus (270, iirc). All three fights are about mechanics execution, rather than gear checks or dps. If you're having trouble with any of it, please post your questions here.

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If I'm reading this thread correctly, you are capable of completing the castellum (and you get rewards from the chest afterwards, so there's your rewards for doing it), but haven't cleared gardens, baths, or gauntlet yet? I hate to tell you, but castellum is not considered a "major" encounter in this raid. It's like an interstitial. The other encounters are the majors. Once you clear one of those, there will be a checkpoint.

Quick and dirty castellum tips:

- 2 people on offense, 4 on defense. Use your heavy ammo as needed, it drops like candy. Use good AoE supers. Try to chain your orbs. Be sure to kill counselors as soon as they appear. This is a pretty straightforward fight. Kill the standard bearers, carry the standards to the plate, repeat. The defenders keep the standard reclaimers from reaching the plate.

The other fights are not really about dps at all (you don't need light 305, by the way - anything above the light level of the enemies doesn't provide any additional bonus (270, iirc). All three fights are about mechanics execution, rather than gear checks or dps. If you're having trouble with any of it, please post your questions here.

Calus Tokens are a Bungie joke on players who may never see the end of the raid. They are unnecessary and are not a reward.

Castellum challenges every ability we have to compete. We know how to do it but it is quite a time sink and having to repeat it multiple times in one raid does not improve our spirit.

I hope you are incorrect about power levels. Otherwise, what is the point of attaining 300+5?

With our group, DPS is very important. Knocking down enemies quicker gives a bit more time to think and react. Having a clearer head helps with mechanics execution.

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If I'm reading this thread correctly, you are capable of completing the castellum (and you get rewards from the chest afterwards, so there's your rewards for doing it), but haven't cleared gardens, baths, or gauntlet yet? I hate to tell you, but castellum is not considered a "major" encounter in this raid. It's like an interstitial. The other encounters are the majors. Once you clear one of those, there will be a checkpoint.
Quick and dirty castellum tips:
- 2 people on offense, 4 on defense. Use your heavy ammo as needed, it drops like candy. Use good AoE supers. Try to chain your orbs. Be sure to kill counselors as soon as they appear. This is a pretty straightforward fight. Kill the standard bearers, carry the standards to the plate, repeat. The defenders keep the standard reclaimers from reaching the plate.
The other fights are not really about dps at all (you don't need light 305, by the way - anything above the light level of the enemies doesn't provide any additional bonus (270, iirc). All three fights are about mechanics execution, rather than gear checks or dps. If you're having trouble with any of it, please post your questions here.

Calus Tokens are a Bungie joke on players who may never see the end of the raid. They are unnecessary and are not a reward.

I think they're fine. They give you another chance at equipment. I would say this Raid is more stingy than the others with drops, and maybe they could do more drops vs tokens, but that not really the problem.

Castellum challenges every ability we have to compete. We know how to do it but it is quite a time sink and having to repeat it multiple times in one raid does not improve our spirit.

Our strat is 3 and 3. If you're having trouble staying alive on defense make sure to use those walls and rifts. Three people is nice on offence because you can DPS the Standard Bearer quicker. On your way back, help the defence clear adds and then move to the next one.

I hope you are incorrect about power levels. Otherwise, what is the point of attaining 300+5?

This is always how Destiny has worked. And honestly, because none of the Crucible playlists have power levels enabled, there isn't really a point. Although I think the Prestige Mode for the Raid is at 300.

With our group, DPS is very important. Knocking down enemies quicker gives a bit more time to think and react. Having a clearer head helps with mechanics execution.

Which enemies are you having trouble damaging? (I'm not sure if you're talking about the Castellum or other Gardens or Pools)

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If I'm reading this thread correctly, you are capable of completing the castellum (and you get rewards from the chest afterwards, so there's your rewards for doing it), but haven't cleared gardens, baths, or gauntlet yet? I hate to tell you, but castellum is not considered a "major" encounter in this raid. It's like an interstitial. The other encounters are the majors. Once you clear one of those, there will be a checkpoint.

Quick and dirty castellum tips:

- 2 people on offense, 4 on defense. Use your heavy ammo as needed, it drops like candy. Use good AoE supers. Try to chain your orbs. Be sure to kill counselors as soon as they appear. This is a pretty straightforward fight. Kill the standard bearers, carry the standards to the plate, repeat. The defenders keep the standard reclaimers from reaching the plate.

The other fights are not really about dps at all (you don't need light 305, by the way - anything above the light level of the enemies doesn't provide any additional bonus (270, iirc). All three fights are about mechanics execution, rather than gear checks or dps. If you're having trouble with any of it, please post your questions here.

Calus Tokens are a Bungie joke on players who may never see the end of the raid. They are unnecessary and are not a reward.

Or, they are a way of providing raid rewards that fit the system used in every other corner of the game (giving tokens to a vendor in exchange for loot). Plus, when you finally do beat the raid, you'll have loads of tokens stored up in your inventory, meaning you'll get lots of loot all at once. Almost like the time you've put in is being rewarded :)

Also, that chest can drop other rewards besides just tokens.

Castellum challenges every ability we have to compete. We know how to do it but it is quite a time sink and having to repeat it multiple times in one raid does not improve our spirit.

In many ways, the Castellum is a sort of "gear/skill/coordination check" for the entire raid. I obviously have no idea what your group is doing (since I haven't played with you or watched you play), but that's part of why I asked if there was anything in particular that was giving you trouble. Because if your group is having that much of a hard time with that intro section, chances are there is something you could change or do differently to make it more manageable. The basic idea of splitting your fireteam into 2 groups, identifying priority targets and taking them out (the bubble scions), all while managing large numbers of enemies is a pretty common dynamic for the rest of the raid, but it is far less complicated during that intro than anywhere else in the raid.

This raid is amazingly forgiving in terms of which gear/subclass you use, but that said, there are a few things that I believe everyone in the group needs to be comfortable doing in order to have much of a chance of making it through:

* Killing yellow-bar enemies. You mention the importance of DPS further down in your post, and this ties directly to that. Everyone in your fireteam should have absolutely no problem taking on a yellow-bar enemy, solo, and bringing them down quickly. You rarely have to do this in the Castellum, but later on in the raid there are plenty of times where every member of the fireteam is face-to-face with a yellow-bar enemy and must bring them down all on their own in a matter of a few seconds.

* Killing lots of stuff with your super Sounds obvious, but the sheer number of enemies that you face in some of the encounters in this raid makes it crucial to know how to use supers effectively. Some supers are inherently better for crowd control than others, so everyone should choose wisely. Don't go using a nova bomb to kill 1 or 2 red-bar enemies. Tied in to this point is the importance of chaining supers. During the Castellum, you can almost get to the point where someone on your fireteam is using their super at all times. Keep the supers happening around the area you need to defend so that the orbs are all close together. If you get this running smoothly, your team should have no trouble clearing the castellum.

* High DPS on bosses In addition to cleaning up low-level mobs, everyone in your fireteam will need to have a plan for delivering high DPS against boss characters. There's no single "best way" to do this, but it does require some thought and planning. If you're a voidwalker, make sure you're using the nova bomb that creates a lingering damage-vortex. Rocket launchers w/ cluster bombs are fantastic. Fusion Rifles are better than shotguns in almost every way (because most bosses will be standing outside of shotgun range). Merciless is an absolute monster. Pulse/vortex grenades do mega damage as well. So everyone should look at their class and subclass abilities carefully, and manage their ability usage accordingly. You don't want to reach a boss DPS phase and find yourself without heavy ammo and your grenade ability, for example.

I hope you are incorrect about power levels. Otherwise, what is the point of attaining 300+5?

In terms of the normal raid, there isn't a point in attaining 300-305. The normal raid is not the most demanding activity in the game with regards to power level. The point of being able to overshoot the raid in power level is so that you can easily gear up to the point where you are "raid ready" without having to spend weeks grinding just to get that pair of max-level boots you were missing, like what constantly happened with D1 and everyone complained about. It also makes it easy to get a variety of gear up to raid level, so that you can swap your loadouts from encounter to encounter and still maintain your level.

With our group, DPS is very important. Knocking down enemies quicker gives a bit more time to think and react. Having a clearer head helps with mechanics execution.

In my experience, one of the more challenging aspects of this raid is that it rarely gives you time to focus on just combat or just mechanics. Your team is going to be making calls and plays based on the mechanics of certain encounters while fighting non-stop. So I'd actually recommend focusing on developing that team skill, rather than trying to clear everything out so that you have more time to think.
DPS is certainly important (as I discussed above), but just make sure everyone on the team is being smart about how they judge their DPS. If someone in the group is using a sniper rifle because it is their highest-level power weapon, but they suck with sniper rifles, have them switch to something they are more comfortable and effective with. As others have said, light level is not uber critical for this raid. Anything above 260 is doable, 270-280 more comfortably so.

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Right. All that.

And, about DPS, I'd agree that it shouldn't be your main focus. There are multiple places where you might be faced with a yellow bar enemy but killing it all by yourself is far less important than just surviving for another few seconds until someone arrives to lend you backup / move forward with the encounter.

Even in the most DPS-y of all the DPS moments, I didn't do anything particularly special and still kept up damage wise with people using all sorts of "more powerful" weapons. I typically use Hard Light for my DPS and more often that not was in the middle of the pack DPS wise.

Long story short, this is not Destiny 1 where most everyone had to have a weapon to let them do the maximum amount of DPS or you'd all wipe. It feels far more like you can bring whatever you want / are comfortable with and still do fine.

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If someone in the group is using a sniper rifle because it is their highest-level power weapon, but they suck with sniper rifles, have them switch to something they are more comfortable and effective with.

Wait... is this now the state of Destiny raiding? I could forego a sniper rifle in favor of something I'm actually effective with, and NOT spend the whole raid listening to people tell me to switch weapons?

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If someone in the group is using a sniper rifle because it is their highest-level power weapon, but they suck with sniper rifles, have them switch to something they are more comfortable and effective with.

Wait... is this now the state of Destiny raiding? I could forego a sniper rifle in favor of something I'm actually effective with, and NOT spend the whole raid listening to people tell me to switch weapons?

Last night there was a funny moment in the Bath House. We were raiding with a new guy and he asked which power weapon he should use. He was told to use a Fusion Rifle, Sword, or Rockets, or he could use a Sniper Rifle if he felt more confident with it. He pointed out that he had a grenade launcher, and I told him that it was perfect... We basically went through the entire spectrum (he posed the same question during the Pleasure House, and got more or less the same response, and he ended up using Hawthorne's Shotgun).

The majority of weapons (except for SMGs and Sidearms) are all perfectly viable in the raid. There are even some Blue-rarity weapons (such as Cuboid) that can help you throughout the whole thing.

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Very much yes. As long as the weapon you want to use actually does its full damage to the enemy at the range you are using it at (like, don't try and do DPS with a Sidearm at long range) you will make a much more significant contribution to things like boss killing than you did in D1.

As someone who never liked Sniper Rifles and never really tried for Black Spindle, this makes me extremely happy.

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If I'm reading this thread correctly, you are capable of completing the castellum (and you get rewards from the chest afterwards, so there's your rewards for doing it), but haven't cleared gardens, baths, or gauntlet yet? I hate to tell you, but castellum is not considered a "major" encounter in this raid. It's like an interstitial. The other encounters are the majors. Once you clear one of those, there will be a checkpoint.

Quick and dirty castellum tips:

- 2 people on offense, 4 on defense. Use your heavy ammo as needed, it drops like candy. Use good AoE supers. Try to chain your orbs. Be sure to kill counselors as soon as they appear. This is a pretty straightforward fight. Kill the standard bearers, carry the standards to the plate, repeat. The defenders keep the standard reclaimers from reaching the plate.

The other fights are not really about dps at all (you don't need light 305, by the way - anything above the light level of the enemies doesn't provide any additional bonus (270, iirc). All three fights are about mechanics execution, rather than gear checks or dps. If you're having trouble with any of it, please post your questions here.

Calus Tokens are a Bungie joke on players who may never see the end of the raid. They are unnecessary and are not a reward.

I think they're meant to be a method for people who've already cleared the raid to get raid loot they might not have randomly received by doing the raid, while also ensuring that people clear the raid without using the raid loot as a (very minor) crutch.

Castellum challenges every ability we have to compete. We know how to do it but it is quite a time sink and having to repeat it multiple times in one raid does not improve our spirit.

I'm sorry to say, but if the Castellum challenges you guys, then the raid really might not be for you. It's a very simple fight, mechanically speaking, and doesn't require high dps or coordination on the part of your teams. It does help a bunch if you're using your supers and heavy ammo, so if your raid group is trying to beat it all with kinetic weapons or something, then you're going to have a bad time. The only real mechanics to watch for are: Kill "counsellors" the moment they appear and ensuring that standard returner orange health dudes don't make it all the way to the standards and return them. When you see the alert "a counsellor" has appeared, everyone on defense should start looking around for the guy in the bubble (and then you have to melee him to kill him). When you see a legionnaire with orange health, use your heavy ammo or supers to kill him quickly. Call out for help if you need it. I understand a death or two during this fight, but no one should be wiping.

I hope you are incorrect about power levels. Otherwise, what is the point of attaining 300+5?

There is no point. Okay, minor points: Prestige modes are for power 300. Also there's a quest after you beat the raid, if you were already on the quest step that was "beat the raid," that is power 300 recommended. That's it as far as I've seen in the entire game. 270+ can do pretty much everything.

With our group, DPS is very important. Knocking down enemies quicker gives a bit more time to think and react. Having a clearer head helps with mechanics execution.

This could be said for any raid. The only "dps race" parts of the whole raid, as far I'm concerned are destroying the lanterns in the pools and beating the final boss fight in 2 cycles. Nowhere else are you really against a wall for DPS. You need to be able to solo down a bather without using your super (use your heavy!), but that's about it. The raid is really very forgiving about how much actual damage you and your team can put out at once.

What seems to be killing you in the castelleum? Are you having trouble finding the guys who carry the standards? Getting overwhelmed on defense? Not splitting the raid group into two groups?

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I hope you are incorrect about power levels. Otherwise, what is the point of attaining 300+5?

There is no point. Okay, minor points: Prestige modes are for power 300. Also there's a quest after you beat the raid, if you were already on the quest step that was "beat the raid," that is power 300 recommended. That's it as far as I've seen in the entire game. 270+ can do pretty much everything.

My testing seems to have revealed you are incorrect. I just tested identical snipers at 280 and 290 on a Standard boss of the Castleum. The 280 scored consistently lower hit points than the 290. The only explanation outside of errors that I can think of, is that power levels continue to improve DPS as they rise. At least in the Raid.

I'm working on piecing together a vid. I want to include the same sniper at 290+5 perk but haven't capped it yet.

You are probably at 305 over every piece of gear by now?

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I hope you are incorrect about power levels. Otherwise, what is the point of attaining 300+5?

There is no point. Okay, minor points: Prestige modes are for power 300. Also there's a quest after you beat the raid, if you were already on the quest step that was "beat the raid," that is power 300 recommended. That's it as far as I've seen in the entire game. 270+ can do pretty much everything.

My testing seems to have revealed you are incorrect. I just tested identical snipers at 280 and 290 on a Standard boss of the Castleum. The 280 scored consistently lower hit points than the 290. The only explanation outside of errors that I can think of, is that power levels continue to improve DPS as they rise. At least in the Raid.

I'm working on piecing together a vid. I want to include the same sniper at 290+5 perk but haven't capped it yet.

You are probably at 305 over every piece of gear by now?

I've made it through that section multiple times with a power level of 280-85. I sure as heck wouldn't try to use snipers on the yellow-bars, though, not just because I suck with snipers. There are too many enemies around to mess up your shot.

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I hope you are incorrect about power levels. Otherwise, what is the point of attaining 300+5?

There is no point. Okay, minor points: Prestige modes are for power 300. Also there's a quest after you beat the raid, if you were already on the quest step that was "beat the raid," that is power 300 recommended. That's it as far as I've seen in the entire game. 270+ can do pretty much everything.

My testing seems to have revealed you are incorrect. I just tested identical snipers at 280 and 290 on a Standard boss of the Castleum. The 280 scored consistently lower hit points than the 290. The only explanation outside of errors that I can think of, is that power levels continue to improve DPS as they rise. At least in the Raid.

Huh, that's really interesting. I had no idea that overleveling improved damage at all in this game, and honestly was under the impression that it didn't. Both shots were the same sniper rifle on the same boss at the same range and with the same perks and buffs active?

I'm working on piecing together a vid. I want to include the same sniper at 290+5 perk but haven't capped it yet.

That would be good info to have. Are you certain you were inside the max damage range falloff with both shots?

You are probably at 305 over every piece of gear by now?

I am, but that's immaterial. The first time I cleared the baths, dogs, and gauntlet of the raid I was 274 and the average light in my raid was probably right around 275. I was 290 by the time I cleared the final boss, but I didn't think my gear came into play at all - our difficulty in every fight was always figuring out the mechanics rather than simply not having the dps. We did raid with a friend who was only 260 at the time and he had some problems killing the orange bar guys solo, but he was still able to do it, even if it got a little hairy for him.

One thing: Snipers kind of stink for this raid. They don't deal enough damage, nor do they deal it quickly enough for most of the encounters. Shotguns or fusion rifles for baths, swords or rockets for dogs, rockets for gauntlet would be my preferred power weapons. Castelleum should be fine with anything, but snipers might not be ideal since you're taking so many hits which would throw your aim off. IMO snipers are not in a good place in D2.

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Huh, that's really interesting. I had no idea that overleveling improved damage at all in this game, and honestly was under the impression that it didn't. Both shots were the same sniper rifle on the same boss at the same range and with the same perks and buffs active?

I don't think it does. Many many people have discussed this and it seems to hold true for Des2ny. The difference is likely either the range, or the call to arms buff.

Either that, or increasing the power of the particular weapon causes it to do more damage. So, if your gun was at or above the enemy power level, any amor pieces you added would not increase your damage even if it improved your overall light level. Worth looking into.

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Yeah... I seem to recall something about the number on a gun being a factor in the damage it dealt. Like, You can be way overleveled and equip a 10 power gun and it will do significantly less damage even though you are still significantly overleveled. Basically, in D1 at least, weapon damage still mattered.

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My continued testing showed a hit point increase from 280 to 290. However, 290+5 gave the same value as 290.

Just a quick guess, the damage cap seems to be 290. My base power level is around 290. Engrams are still at 290.

I will endeavour to get the vid up somewhere. I have the pieces but not the time. The 280-290 difference is quite certain.

BTW, the sniper was just for testing. Not for Raiding.

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One month, 2 Raids per week, no check point yet. (Destiny)

What specifically is giving your group problems?

What specifically is giving your group problems?

What specifically is giving your group problems?

What specifically is giving your group problems?

What specifically is giving your group problems?

What specifically is giving your group problems?

What specifically is giving your group problems?

What specifically is giving your group problems?

What specifically is giving your group problems?

What specifically is giving your group problems?

What specifically is giving your group problems?

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What specifically is giving your group problems?

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Wow! Can't think of a nicer compliment coming from you. TY!

What specifically is giving your group problems?

What specifically is giving your group problems?

What specifically is giving your group problems?

What specifically is giving your group problems?

What specifically is giving your group problems?

What specifically is giving your group problems?

Heh, how did that work out for it? ;)

"Those who wield that which cannot be simulated"