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Today, we fix Iron Banner. (Destiny)

by ManKitten, The Stugotz is strong in me., Monday, October 16, 2017, 06:49 (2396 days ago)

Iron Banner was rather disappointing for me but I don't want to just be a hater complainer. Instead, let's discuss how it could be better.

Also, I believe this is not the true Iron Banner they want to present to us. Since the PC version is not out yet, they are probably holding some stuff back. Once PC releases, there may be a busted dam of content that floods our machines, who knows.

But anyway...my thoughts.

Tokens and Ranking - I didn't mind tokens and thought they were a decent way to rank up. It seemed I could complete daily challenges within 1-3 games. Just from challenges alone, you could get 21 tokens. Even if you lost those three games that's 27 tokens, so it was possible to complete 2 ranks (with the assumption that you could win at least 1 of 4 games.)(Edit: don't critique my math skills)

Rewards - This is where it really hurt. I really wanted some samurai armor! I turned in 10 packages and got a helmet and a cloak. The rest was duplicate weapons. Lame. It totally makes sense to have a challenge for 10 levels...and also offer 10 rewards. 1 per level. Why is this not the case! To me there is a difference between farming and grinding. Farming is fun, I'm playing and working the fields knowing that come harvest there will be great reward. Grinding is playing despite fun for the sole purpose of end reward. After rank 4, Iron Banner was a grind. It wasn't particularly fun. And since I had a better winning record going in solo vs with friends...it was lonely. Then after completing the 10 rank challenge, the prize was an emblem. whoopty doo.

Season 1 - Is this the only Iron Banner in Season 1? Will I get another chance to earn Samurai armor? How long is a season?

Power Levels - Why no power levels all of sudden? Could this be related to the PC release?

Gametypes - So we have crucible. We have trials of Nine. We have Iron Banner. All of them are 4v4 with essentially the same games. What's the point? Where is the variety? One of the things I've been curious about with Destiny PvP and their comment "[paraphrase] we want to unhide the fun"...how come this doesn't apply to PvP. Bungie used to have so many PvP gametypes. Capture the Flag, Oddball, King of the Hill, Juggernaut, Headhunter, so many gametypes that could work so well in Destiny. And the Iron Banner playlist would be the perfect place for them. These strange and rare gametypes would ONLY be in Iron Banner.
"Capture the Core" - Team A has to infiltrate Team B base to steal their power core and return it to A base.
"Bestowed Light" - Free for all game with an oracle of light. Whoever picks up the oracle has infinite light until death and they drop the oracle. 5 points for killing the bestowed, 1 point for killing as the bestowed.
And so on.

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Today, we fix Iron Banner.

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Monday, October 16, 2017, 07:26 (2396 days ago) @ ManKitten

Just a few thoughts:

- Rewards: If I remember correctly, inspecting the engram shows you can't get Iron Banner weapons and armor... and also regular weapons and armor. Why is the regular stuff included? Even as a bonus? Make the bonus more Iron Banner stuff at the very very least. Giving guaranteed tiers or purchasable rewards or just detecting and stopping duplicates would go a long way to make each level up feel important instead of "this again??"

I think the token system is somewhere between fine and excellent. The rewards the token system is handing out are kinda bewildering. :(

- Seasons: I forget when, but Bungie is suppose to talk about Seasons soon. On a stream or something.

- Gametypes: I would hope the game type rotates each Iron Banner like before. That it isn't Control but is Iron Banner Control gives me a lot of hope it will. It would be nice if Iron Banner game types also had some distinction but we'll see I guess. As for not seeing other game types... some of those you mentioned very nearly require a good team to do well and kinda need a longer game time to be fun. Like, a classic Halo flag at home CTF session was great when it stretched across a two hour stalemate, but nobody these days has the patience for that!

Oddball, in particular, always struck me as a kinda terrible gametype where one team gets the ball then hides together and murders the other team for then next 10 minutes. Fun if you're winning, terrible if you don't have a good team or just fail to get the ball in the opening seconds.

- Power Level: I never really liked the power level stuff. As I said to someone on Twitter earlier, it basically made a major monthly event unplayable for some significant part of the population. Especially right after new releases came out. If you weren't level 400 or 360 or 300 or whatever you'd just get stomped. I think Bungie is shooting for more fairness is D2 which means avoiding making a mode badly slanted against players who don't play as much.

I actually hope Iron Banner stays the way it is with power level not mattering. It's a big, high profile, monthly event and one of the few pvp events that all players should want and be able to play in. I'd be fine if the tougher / more exclusive pvp modes (like Trials) go back to power level based, but maybe Bungie will keep a big event open to all?

Also, this first Iron Banner was soon enough that it seems likely that some significant number of D2 players, perhaps even a large majority of them, are no where near 305 and won't be for some time. Pitting them against 305 top end players might have caused a ton of very very bad games in this first season.

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Today, we fix Iron Banner.

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, October 16, 2017, 07:37 (2396 days ago) @ ManKitten
edited by CruelLEGACEY, Monday, October 16, 2017, 08:13

Iron Banner was rather disappointing for me but I don't want to just be a hater complainer. Instead, let's discuss how it could be better.

Also, I believe this is not the true Iron Banner they want to present to us. Since the PC version is not out yet, they are probably holding some stuff back. Once PC releases, there may be a busted dam of content that floods our machines, who knows.

So I have no more info than anyone else does, but I wouldn't hold my breath. It just doesn't seem realistic to me. I think we would have heard about any PC-related content release by now if there were one coming.


But anyway...my thoughts.

Tokens and Ranking - I didn't mind tokens and thought they were a decent way to rank up. It seemed I could complete daily challenges within 1-3 games. Just from challenges alone, you could get 21 tokens. Even if you lost those three games that's 27 tokens, so it was possible to complete 2 ranks (with the assumption that you could win at least 1 of 4 games.)(Edit: don't critique my math skills)

Rewards - This is where it really hurt. I really wanted some samurai armor! I turned in 10 packages and got a helmet and a cloak. The rest was duplicate weapons. Lame. It totally makes sense to have a challenge for 10 levels...and also offer 10 rewards. 1 per level. Why is this not the case! To me there is a difference between farming and grinding. Farming is fun, I'm playing and working the fields knowing that come harvest there will be great reward. Grinding is playing despite fun for the sole purpose of end reward. After rank 4, Iron Banner was a grind. It wasn't particularly fun. And since I had a better winning record going in solo vs with friends...it was lonely. Then after completing the 10 rank challenge, the prize was an emblem. whoopty doo.

Yeah, they sort of took D1 Iron Banner and inverted what worked/didn't work about it IMO. I loved the fact that the challenges are now based on individual performance, rather than wins/losses. I also loved that you earned tokens after every game... giving more tokens to the winning team seams like a totally fair way to incentivize winning without making those who have fallen out of favor with the matchmaking gods feel stuck.
But, I did miss being able to work towards specific pieces of gear. I was hoping that after reaching Rank 10, Saladin would have a small selection of gear available to purchase.

Season 1 - Is this the only Iron Banner in Season 1? Will I get another chance to earn Samurai armor? How long is a season?

Power Levels - Why no power levels all of sudden? Could this be related to the PC release?

If I had to guess, I'd say Bungie perhaps felt that making power levels apply to PvP didn't actually add anything interesting or fun to the game.

Gametypes - So we have crucible. We have trials of Nine. We have Iron Banner. All of them are 4v4 with essentially the same games. What's the point? Where is the variety? One of the things I've been curious about with Destiny PvP and their comment "[paraphrase] we want to unhide the fun"...how come this doesn't apply to PvP. Bungie used to have so many PvP gametypes. Capture the Flag, Oddball, King of the Hill, Juggernaut, Headhunter, so many gametypes that could work so well in Destiny. And the Iron Banner playlist would be the perfect place for them. These strange and rare gametypes would ONLY be in Iron Banner.
"Capture the Core" - Team A has to infiltrate Team B base to steal their power core and return it to A base.
"Bestowed Light" - Free for all game with an oracle of light. Whoever picks up the oracle has infinite light until death and they drop the oracle. 5 points for killing the bestowed, 1 point for killing as the bestowed.
And so on.

Great point. I actually had way more fun with Iron Banner this week than I ever had with IB in Destiny 1, but on the flip side, I think Trials has been quite thoroughly ruined. 4v4 Control just seems to be a nice fit for the IB event, IMO. But I do feel the lack of 3v3 game modes is a big omission. I always felt that 6v6 was way too chaotic and sloppy in D1, but I'd be interested to see how it plays in D2 now that ability cooldowns are more substantial and the overall time to kill is slightly longer.

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Today, we fix Iron Banner.

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Monday, October 16, 2017, 08:16 (2396 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY


Rewards - This is where it really hurt. I really wanted some samurai armor! I turned in 10 packages and got a helmet and a cloak. The rest was duplicate weapons. Lame. It totally makes sense to have a challenge for 10 levels...and also offer 10 rewards. 1 per level. Why is this not the case! To me there is a difference between farming and grinding. Farming is fun, I'm playing and working the fields knowing that come harvest there will be great reward. Grinding is playing despite fun for the sole purpose of end reward. After rank 4, Iron Banner was a grind. It wasn't particularly fun. And since I had a better winning record going in solo vs with friends...it was lonely. Then after completing the 10 rank challenge, the prize was an emblem. whoopty doo.

Yeah, they sort of took D1 Iron Banner and inverted what worked/didn't work about it IMO. I loved the fact that the challenges were based on individual performance, rather than wins/losses. I also loved that you earned tokens after every game... giving more tokens to the winning team seams like a totally fair way to incentivize winning without making those who have fallen out of favor with the matchmaking gods feel stuck.
But, I did miss being able to work towards specific pieces of gear. I was hoping that after reaching Rank 10, Saladin would have a small selection of gear available to purchase.


Yeah, that's one thing that really bugs me about D2. They clearly iterated on the D1 thing where reaching certain milestones gave you the choice of three specific rewards/reward types. It happens several times in the campaign (it even caps off the campaign portion of the game... And yet, it's completely missing in every single other aspect of the game (except for the Lighthouse, but most don't get there).

The Token system should definitely supplement the loot drops and milestone rewards, not supplant them, and Bungie had already learned this lesson, otherwise Sloane, Asher, and Zavala wouldn't give you a choice to go along with the Tokens that you earn with them.

Season 1 - Is this the only Iron Banner in Season 1? Will I get another chance to earn Samurai armor? How long is a season?

Power Levels - Why no power levels all of sudden? Could this be related to the PC release?

If I had to guess, I'd say Bungie perhaps felt that making power levels apply to PvP didn't actually add anything interesting or fun to the game.

No, I think this is just a thing for the first Iron Banner. If I had to guess, the majority of players probably hadn't hit a high enough power level for Bungie to feel comfortable with hitting them with this twist (sure, you could point to Trials as proof against this, but I think IB is being treated as more of a special event to whet the appetite for the general, more casual crowd who wants more events and updates).

Great point. I actually had way more fun with Iron Banner this week than I ever had with IB in Destiny 1, but on the flip side, I think Trials has been quite thoroughly ruined. 4v4 Control just seems to be a nice fit for the IB event, IMO. But I do feel the lack of 3v3 game modes is a big omission. I always felt that 6v6 was way too chaotic and sloppy in D1, but I'd be interested to see how it plays in D2 now that ability cooldowns are more substantial and the overall time to kill is slightly longer.

I love that the Iron Banner weapons (timed well with Xur selling Vigilance wing) have hit all of the MIDA-using babies hard. I hardly saw it being used, and when I did, the beautiful pepper-grinder sound of the Vigilance Wing perfectly lead into the cries of people who saw their crutch finally failing them... It's been a great week (I don't even mind all of the Uriel's Gifts running around).
And yeah, I think Bungie's random push for 4v4 has hurt Trials almost as much as the decision to bring back (a re-buffed) MIDA did, and agree that the lack of distinct gametypes for the events really kills a lot about what made them special...

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Today, we fix Iron Banner.

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, October 16, 2017, 08:24 (2396 days ago) @ Korny

Power Levels - Why no power levels all of sudden? Could this be related to the PC release?

If I had to guess, I'd say Bungie perhaps felt that making power levels apply to PvP didn't actually add anything interesting or fun to the game.


No, I think this is just a thing for the first Iron Banner. If I had to guess, the majority of players probably hadn't hit a high enough power level for Bungie to feel comfortable with hitting them with this twist (sure, you could point to Trials as proof against this, but I think IB is being treated as more of a special event to whet the appetite for the general, more casual crowd who wants more events and updates).

Possibly, but I can’t help thinking that if Bungie had any desire to have a PvP mode where power level matters, then right now is the best time to do it. Because in another month, everyone will be so close to max level that it won’t matter at all.

I think you’re bang on with regards to Bungie treating IB as a more mass-appeal event, and I think that is precisely why we won’t see power levels return to IB. Nothing makes people who have stepped away from D2 want to jump back in like telling them “hey, not only are less practiced than the hardcore fans who play all the time, but you do less damage now too!” ;p

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Today, we fix Iron Banner.

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Monday, October 16, 2017, 08:32 (2396 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

Power Levels - Why no power levels all of sudden? Could this be related to the PC release?

If I had to guess, I'd say Bungie perhaps felt that making power levels apply to PvP didn't actually add anything interesting or fun to the game.


No, I think this is just a thing for the first Iron Banner. If I had to guess, the majority of players probably hadn't hit a high enough power level for Bungie to feel comfortable with hitting them with this twist (sure, you could point to Trials as proof against this, but I think IB is being treated as more of a special event to whet the appetite for the general, more casual crowd who wants more events and updates).

Possibly, but I can’t help thinking that if Bungie had any desire to have a PvP mode where power level matters, then right now is the best time to do it. Because in another month, everyone will be so close to max level that it won’t matter at all.

Maybe. Saladin does have dialogue that mentions power level being important in Iron Banner.

Maybe it's just a "Season 1" thing, since Bungie pointed out that things will change from season to season. I guess we'll find out in four days...

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Today, we fix Iron Banner.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, October 16, 2017, 10:11 (2395 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

Possibly, but I can’t help thinking that if Bungie had any desire to have a PvP mode where power level matters, then right now is the best time to do it. Because in another month, everyone will be so close to max level that it won’t matter at all.

It's just a bad idea in general. If power matters a great deal, then if you aren't max level it's hopeless. If it doesn't, then well it doesn't really matter. Even in Destiny, you had to be almost 30 light lower for the power level difference to even start becoming apparent, so it basically never mattered then either.

I think you’re bang on with regards to Bungie treating IB as a more mass-appeal event, and I think that is precisely why we won’t see power levels return to IB. Nothing makes people who have stepped away from D2 want to jump back in like telling them “hey, not only are less practiced than the hardcore fans who play all the time, but you do less damage now too!” ;p

It looks like Bungie is slowly (and rightly in my mind) shifting away from power level as a thing. I would love to see it go away completely for D3stiny.

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Today, we fix Iron Banner.

by ManKitten, The Stugotz is strong in me., Monday, October 16, 2017, 10:43 (2395 days ago) @ Cody Miller
edited by ManKitten, Monday, October 16, 2017, 10:51


It looks like Bungie is slowly (and rightly in my mind) shifting away from power level as a thing. I would love to see it go away completely for D3stiny.

Which is ok but the part that confuses me is that all of the Crucible modes have a line that states "Level Advantages Disabled"

So...it's on their mind. Is this line there to signify a change from D1 or will we eventually see a Level Advantage playlist?

[image]
*Note, screenshot of Quickplay list but I'm pretty sure all playlists say this.

[image]
Edit: Found a screen of Iron Banner menu

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D1 playlists would say the same thing.

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Monday, October 16, 2017, 10:45 (2395 days ago) @ ManKitten

- No text -

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D1 playlists would say the same thing, but...

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, October 16, 2017, 10:48 (2395 days ago) @ Ragashingo

Yes, but in D1 they needed to distinguish because both types of playlists existed. Why would they continue to distinguish in D2 unless both versions were also present? Unless they're just leaving the door open to add a "level advantage enabled" playlist in the future, if they choose?

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D1 playlists would say the same thing, but...

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, October 16, 2017, 15:31 (2395 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

Yes, but in D1 they needed to distinguish because both types of playlists existed. Why would they continue to distinguish in D2 unless both versions were also present? Unless they're just leaving the door open to add a "level advantage enabled" playlist in the future, if they choose?

Because a significant portion of Destiny players are returning players, and this is a change from what they know.

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Not accurate.

by ManKitten, The Stugotz is strong in me., Monday, October 16, 2017, 10:48 (2395 days ago) @ Ragashingo

[image]

Here is a screen from D1 Iron Banner where "Level Advantages Enabled"

If all advantages are disabled in D2, why mention it?

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What does the Nightfall say?

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Monday, October 16, 2017, 10:50 (2395 days ago) @ ManKitten

- No text -

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What does the Nightfall say?

by ManKitten, The Stugotz is strong in me., Monday, October 16, 2017, 10:53 (2395 days ago) @ Ragashingo

[image]

It doesn't make mention.

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Darn. That was my best guess! :p

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Monday, October 16, 2017, 11:04 (2395 days ago) @ ManKitten

But yeah, I think you have it right. That the playlist does mention power level might be a good sign that that tag will flip to enabled or whatever in a future "season" whatever that is.

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NWAY NWAY NWEEEEEE YAHHH YEEEEE YEEEEE YEEEEEEEEEE

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, October 16, 2017, 10:58 (2395 days ago) @ Ragashingo

- No text -

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/me gets joke and facepalms.

by ManKitten, The Stugotz is strong in me., Monday, October 16, 2017, 11:03 (2395 days ago) @ Cody Miller

...in a good way.

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I disagree.

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Monday, October 16, 2017, 12:01 (2395 days ago) @ ManKitten

...in a good way.

No, not in a good way. I heard that song a couple nights ago and there was a reason I completely blocked it from my memory.

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Oh, Dear lord...

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Monday, October 16, 2017, 12:07 (2395 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

It's stuck in my head now.

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Oh, Dear lord...

by cheapLEY @, Monday, October 16, 2017, 13:54 (2395 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

I have no idea what you’re talking about, and now I’m pretty sure I don’t want to.

Oh, Dear lord...

by Claude Errera @, Monday, October 16, 2017, 15:17 (2395 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I have no idea what you’re talking about, and now I’m pretty sure I don’t want to.

Nope, you don't.

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Well, my night is ruined O_o

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, October 16, 2017, 15:18 (2395 days ago) @ Claude Errera

Why did I click on the link? Why?!

I'm (almost) sorry.

by Claude Errera @, Monday, October 16, 2017, 15:22 (2395 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

- No text -

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;p

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, October 16, 2017, 15:23 (2395 days ago) @ Claude Errera

- No text -

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Additional Watching

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, October 16, 2017, 15:27 (2395 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

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Fuuuuuuu#$

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, October 16, 2017, 15:28 (2395 days ago) @ Cody Miller

https://www.youtube.com/user/guntherofficial/videos

The thumbnails are scary enough XD

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Fuuuuuuu#$

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, October 16, 2017, 15:31 (2395 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

https://www.youtube.com/user/guntherofficial/videos


The thumbnails are scary enough XD

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Fuuuuuuu#$

by bluerunner @, Music City, Monday, October 16, 2017, 19:06 (2395 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I think I heard the Ding Dong Song the first time during a Halo 1 trick video. It was somebody getting to the bottom of T&R.

I bought my wife a Gunther shirt shortly after we got married.

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Well, my night is ruined O_o

by bluerunner @, Music City, Monday, October 16, 2017, 19:15 (2395 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

I would rather hear that than hear an actual one when I'm camping alone.

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My eyes and ears!

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, October 16, 2017, 15:32 (2395 days ago) @ Claude Errera

- No text -

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Oh, Dear lord...

by cheapLEY @, Monday, October 16, 2017, 19:33 (2395 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I don't know what you all are talking about, that is hilarious. That definitely made the rounds a few years ago in my squadron.

And, as ever, the real answer to the question:

[image]

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Today, we fix Iron Banner.

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, October 16, 2017, 10:46 (2395 days ago) @ ManKitten


It looks like Bungie is slowly (and rightly in my mind) shifting away from power level as a thing. I would love to see it go away completely for D3stiny.


Which is ok but the part that confuses me is that all of the Crucible modes have a line that states "Level Advantages Disabled"

So...it's on their mind. Is this line there to signify a change from D1 or will we eventually see a Level Advantage playlist?

[image]
*Note, screenshot of Quickplay list but I'm pretty sure all playlists say this.

Good point... I hadn't considered that.

Avatar

Today, we fix Iron Banner.

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Monday, October 16, 2017, 10:44 (2395 days ago) @ Cody Miller

It's just a bad idea in general. If power matters a great deal, then if you aren't max level it's hopeless. If it doesn't, then well it doesn't really matter. Even in Destiny, you had to be almost 30 light lower for the power level difference to even start becoming apparent, so it basically never mattered then either.

I’d need to go look up the graph again, but my feeling was being underleveled wasn’t too much of a problem as far as gun exchanges were concerned, but the effects on grenade damage seemed a bit more dramatic. To the point that sure sticky kills ended up not being so sure after all even when I was within in 10 or so levels of the enemy. Probably because gunfire tended to overkill enemies while grenades did just enough to kill.

In any case, yeah, I’m glad power level is being reduced as a thing. Mostly, it serves to either make the PvE less enjoyable by turning everything into bullet sponges or makes the PvP less enjoyable by giving an advantage to the group that got better drops or had more time to play.

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Today, we fix Iron Banner.

by Kahzgul, Monday, October 16, 2017, 14:46 (2395 days ago) @ Ragashingo

In any case, yeah, I’m glad power level is being reduced as a thing. Mostly, it ... makes the PvP less enjoyable by giving an advantage to the group that got better drops or had more time to play.

100% true. Loot based shooters already suffer from this simply based on the nature of the game: People who have the time to get the best loot have an inherent advantage over those who don't. I don't disagree with rewarding people for their time, but exacerbating the situation by needlessly handicapping lower power and already undergeared players is unnecessary. Furthermore, when the reward for play in the weighted playlist is *more loot* you're only widening the gap between the haves and have-nots, which, imo, is detrimental to the overall experience of the game.

You want a truly iron banner? Give lower level players vast power increases. See if the best players with the best gear can hold their own against four super powered kinderguardians!!! I'd be down for that.

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My eyes!

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, October 16, 2017, 15:32 (2395 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Possibly, but I can’t help thinking that if Bungie had any desire to have a PvP mode where power level matters, then right now is the best time to do it. Because in another month, everyone will be so close to max level that it won’t matter at all.


It's just a bad idea in general. If power matters a great deal, then if you aren't max level it's hopeless. If it doesn't, then well it doesn't really matter. Even in Destiny, you had to be almost 30 light lower for the power level difference to even start becoming apparent, so it basically never mattered then either.

I think you’re bang on with regards to Bungie treating IB as a more mass-appeal event, and I think that is precisely why we won’t see power levels return to IB. Nothing makes people who have stepped away from D2 want to jump back in like telling them “hey, not only are less practiced than the hardcore fans who play all the time, but you do less damage now too!” ;p


It looks like Bungie is slowly (and rightly in my mind) shifting away from power level as a thing. I would love to see it go away completely for D3stiny.

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It's better as Desti3 regardless.

by Harmanimus @, Monday, October 16, 2017, 18:41 (2395 days ago) @ Kermit

- No text -

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Holy crap, it is!

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, October 16, 2017, 18:56 (2395 days ago) @ Harmanimus

- No text -

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Done. Desti3 from now on.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, October 16, 2017, 19:03 (2395 days ago) @ Harmanimus

Let’s just hope there’s no part 4.

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Desti3: Dest2ny's Child

by Robot Chickens, Monday, October 16, 2017, 19:41 (2395 days ago) @ Cody Miller

- No text -

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Let's Hope History Doesn't Repeat Itself!

by Morpheus @, High Charity, Wednesday, October 18, 2017, 18:04 (2393 days ago) @ Harmanimus

[image]

;-D

Drops are definitely troublesome this time around.

by Claude Errera @, Monday, October 16, 2017, 08:09 (2396 days ago) @ ManKitten

I turned in 200 tokens last night. I got 3 butt towels (already had one, at 305), and NO OTHER ARMOR AT ALL. The number of repeated weapons was astounding - I got zero new weapons, ONLY repeats, and up to 4 of the same gun multiple times.

Hmm... wait, that's wrong. I DID get one new weapon - the grenade launcher. But I also got 4 hand cannons, 3 submachine guns, 3 pulse rifles, etc etc etc.

It was a SERIOUS letdown. I have 4 pieces of armor, total (3 on my Titan, one on my Warlock), out of somewhere between 25 and 40 packages.

That, to me, seems broken.

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Drops are definitely troublesome this time around.

by breitzen @, Kansas, Monday, October 16, 2017, 08:36 (2396 days ago) @ Claude Errera

I turned in 200 tokens last night. I got 3 butt towels (already had one, at 305), and NO OTHER ARMOR AT ALL. The number of repeated weapons was astounding - I got zero new weapons, ONLY repeats, and up to 4 of the same gun multiple times.

Hmm... wait, that's wrong. I DID get one new weapon - the grenade launcher. But I also got 4 hand cannons, 3 submachine guns, 3 pulse rifles, etc etc etc.

It was a SERIOUS letdown. I have 4 pieces of armor, total (3 on my Titan, one on my Warlock), out of somewhere between 25 and 40 packages.

That, to me, seems broken.

That is very broken. I had a similar experience. We've got one more night, but don't expect to complete my armor set. :(

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Drops are definitely troublesome this time around.

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Monday, October 16, 2017, 08:48 (2396 days ago) @ breitzen

I turned in 200 tokens last night. I got 3 butt towels (already had one, at 305), and NO OTHER ARMOR AT ALL. The number of repeated weapons was astounding - I got zero new weapons, ONLY repeats, and up to 4 of the same gun multiple times.

Hmm... wait, that's wrong. I DID get one new weapon - the grenade launcher. But I also got 4 hand cannons, 3 submachine guns, 3 pulse rifles, etc etc etc.

It was a SERIOUS letdown. I have 4 pieces of armor, total (3 on my Titan, one on my Warlock), out of somewhere between 25 and 40 packages.

That, to me, seems broken.


That is very broken. I had a similar experience. We've got one more night, but don't expect to complete my armor set. :(

I was hoping to get something other than just the gauntlets. 10 packages, just 3 pairs of gauntlets.

I also think that if this is what the Iron banner armor is always going to look like then it's okay if we only get 1 piece per season. However, If I just get gauntlets next season, then I will be pissed :D

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Drops are definitely troublesome this time around.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, October 16, 2017, 10:13 (2395 days ago) @ breitzen

Is this not simple math? Couldn't a cursory glance at drop rates and expected games played give you a really good idea at what your players can expect?

It's like, if a player plays X games, they will have Y chance at getting shit. Oh, looks like we should change or loot algorithm.

I mean, casinos have this figured completely out. This seems like a really simple problem to avoid.

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Drops are definitely troublesome this time around.

by Kahzgul, Monday, October 16, 2017, 14:48 (2395 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Is this not simple math? Couldn't a cursory glance at drop rates and expected games played give you a really good idea at what your players can expect?

It's like, if a player plays X games, they will have Y chance at getting shit. Oh, looks like we should change or loot algorithm.

I mean, casinos have this figured completely out. This seems like a really simple problem to avoid.

Bungie doesn't want you to get all of the gear, because then you stop chasing the dragon. So they ensure you *can't* get all of the gear, which keeps the playlists populated well past people getting 10 packages.

All of which tells me that the game isn't fun enough for people to want to play on their own, regardless of whether there are loot drops or not.

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Drops are definitely troublesome this time around.

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Monday, October 16, 2017, 15:14 (2395 days ago) @ Kahzgul

All of which tells me that the game isn't fun enough for people to want to play on their own, regardless of whether there are loot drops or not.

Really? For me D2 is way better than D1. At pretty much every level and every activity. It does not have an infinite amount to do, but with the additions of the Adventures, it has way more good, hand crafted, voiced mission content than any Bungie game before it.

I think the randomness and uncaring nature of the RNG is pretty bad at the moment. But I think that can be solved in a number of ways. Maybe let us buy vendor armor / weapons directly again with Tokens so playing enough means we can complete the set we want. Or maybe explicitly make it so this round of Iron Banner will only give out the helmet but tell us next round will be the chest pieces so we aren't flailing away not getting something that we want.

But yeah... the idea that the game isn't fun enough strikes me as... if not wrong, then not giving enough consideration to what people say they are wanting as opposed to the actual problems.

P.S. You're ascribing negatives to Bungie again where they may not necessarily fit. My thought on chasing the dragon is that D2 has made it VASTLY easier than in most or all iterations of D1. For instance, there was never a point where I was stuck at a level like happened in early D1. Did Bungie want me chasing the dragon more then or now??

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Drops are definitely troublesome this time around.

by Kahzgul, Monday, October 16, 2017, 16:31 (2395 days ago) @ Ragashingo

All of which tells me that the game isn't fun enough for people to want to play on their own, regardless of whether there are loot drops or not.


Really? For me D2 is way better than D1.

I'm only talking about pvp in my initial post. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Mixed bag for me. The PvE is dramatically improved and really delivers on the promise of D1, I think. The PvP is okay but not as fun for me. It lacks the high skill barrier, which is both good and bad, but I found D1's pvp to have a surprising amount of depth, from various functional loadouts to the intricacies of advanced movement to controlling lanes... it was extremely involved. D2 lacks the movement almost completely, and while I think the weapons changes away from OHKs are a vast improvement, I think also losing the advanced movement and relegating player skill to a backseat to team shooting is a change that is less fun *for me*. It's better than the final iteration of the D1 meta, but overall a step backwards because of the limited mobility options and emphasis on teamwork over individual player skill. I'm sure it will grow on me; it already has.

At pretty much every level and every activity. It does not have an infinite amount to do, but with the additions of the Adventures, it has way more good, hand crafted, voiced mission content than any Bungie game before it.

Yeah, the PvE is great. Seriously. There's tons to do and it's really fun just to wander around these great big spaces. My critiques are purely oriented at PvP (because this discussion is about iron banner, and not, say, the raid).


I think the randomness and uncaring nature of the RNG is pretty bad at the moment. But I think that can be solved in a number of ways. Maybe let us buy vendor armor / weapons directly again with Tokens so playing enough means we can complete the set we want. Or maybe explicitly make it so this round of Iron Banner will only give out the helmet but tell us next round will be the chest pieces so we aren't flailing away not getting something that we want.

I agree that the issue is fixable, and I also believe it needs fixing. The state right now is not good. Your suggestions would all be fine, though I'd like to see something more along the lines of guaranteed armor at 2, 4, 6, 8, and 10 packages (different slots so you get a full set in one IB event) rather than 1 item per IB event so a full set takes 5 events.


But yeah... the idea that the game isn't fun enough strikes me as... if not wrong, then not giving enough consideration to what people say they are wanting as opposed to the actual problems.

Again, just talking about PvP. If it's not fun enough that I want to play without the rewards, then it isn't fun enough in my book.

P.S. You're ascribing negatives to Bungie again where they may not necessarily fit. My thought on chasing the dragon is that D2 has made it VASTLY easier than in most or all iterations of D1. For instance, there was never a point where I was stuck at a level like happened in early D1. Did Bungie want me chasing the dragon more then or now??

Eh, different dragons. In D1 you were chasing the dragon of light level because that light level made a small difference in your actual power and effectiveness in endgame pvp. In D2 power level is meaningless in pvp, so you're chasing the dragon of loot drops, and the loot largely doesn't justify the effort required, plus it's all RNG based which means your effort is rewarded randomly, if at all, rather than guaranteed. This particular dragon is not one I am compelled to chase. Ergo, it's not fun for me.

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Drops are definitely troublesome this time around.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, October 16, 2017, 16:42 (2395 days ago) @ Kahzgul

Is this not simple math? Couldn't a cursory glance at drop rates and expected games played give you a really good idea at what your players can expect?

It's like, if a player plays X games, they will have Y chance at getting shit. Oh, looks like we should change or loot algorithm.

I mean, casinos have this figured completely out. This seems like a really simple problem to avoid.


Bungie doesn't want you to get all of the gear, because then you stop chasing the dragon. So they ensure you *can't* get all of the gear, which keeps the playlists populated well past people getting 10 packages.

If everyone who went to Vegas lost all the time, nobody would gamble. So, you sometimes win. But not enough so that the casinos lose money. The formula has been figured out by this point…

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Drops are definitely troublesome this time around.

by Kahzgul, Monday, October 16, 2017, 16:53 (2395 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Is this not simple math? Couldn't a cursory glance at drop rates and expected games played give you a really good idea at what your players can expect?

It's like, if a player plays X games, they will have Y chance at getting shit. Oh, looks like we should change or loot algorithm.

I mean, casinos have this figured completely out. This seems like a really simple problem to avoid.


Bungie doesn't want you to get all of the gear, because then you stop chasing the dragon. So they ensure you *can't* get all of the gear, which keeps the playlists populated well past people getting 10 packages.


If everyone who went to Vegas lost all the time, nobody would gamble. So, you sometimes win. But not enough so that the casinos lose money. The formula has been figured out by this point…

Right. The odds are good that you get 1-3 pieces of gear in your first 10 packages, but bad enough that you need to play for about 30ish packages to get them all, right?

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Drops are definitely troublesome this time around.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, October 16, 2017, 16:54 (2395 days ago) @ Kahzgul

Is this not simple math? Couldn't a cursory glance at drop rates and expected games played give you a really good idea at what your players can expect?

It's like, if a player plays X games, they will have Y chance at getting shit. Oh, looks like we should change or loot algorithm.

I mean, casinos have this figured completely out. This seems like a really simple problem to avoid.


Bungie doesn't want you to get all of the gear, because then you stop chasing the dragon. So they ensure you *can't* get all of the gear, which keeps the playlists populated well past people getting 10 packages.


If everyone who went to Vegas lost all the time, nobody would gamble. So, you sometimes win. But not enough so that the casinos lose money. The formula has been figured out by this point…


Right. The odds are good that you get 1-3 pieces of gear in your first 10 packages, but bad enough that you need to play for about 30ish packages to get them all, right?

I really don't know. I haven't played Iron banner, but some folks on reddit are saying they went through 30 packages with no armor at all being awarded.

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Drops are definitely troublesome this time around.

by Kahzgul, Monday, October 16, 2017, 17:33 (2395 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Is this not simple math? Couldn't a cursory glance at drop rates and expected games played give you a really good idea at what your players can expect?

It's like, if a player plays X games, they will have Y chance at getting shit. Oh, looks like we should change or loot algorithm.

I mean, casinos have this figured completely out. This seems like a really simple problem to avoid.


Bungie doesn't want you to get all of the gear, because then you stop chasing the dragon. So they ensure you *can't* get all of the gear, which keeps the playlists populated well past people getting 10 packages.


If everyone who went to Vegas lost all the time, nobody would gamble. So, you sometimes win. But not enough so that the casinos lose money. The formula has been figured out by this point…


Right. The odds are good that you get 1-3 pieces of gear in your first 10 packages, but bad enough that you need to play for about 30ish packages to get them all, right?


I really don't know. I haven't played Iron banner, but some folks on reddit are saying they went through 30 packages with no armor at all being awarded.

That's pretty terrible. Bungie should really follow the Path of Exile setup for % chance to happen events, which is that the chance increases by a like percentage every time the event doesn't happen. So if you have a 10% chance to get a rare item, instead of having any possibility of an absurd streak of never getting rare items, if you don't get a rare on your first roll, the second roll is 20%, the third is 30%, all the way until it's guaranteed. If, at any point, you get a rare, then the rate resets back to the initial 10% value and the process starts over. The net result is actually a > 10% chance at rares, but you're guaranteed to get a rare *at minimum* 10% of the time, rather than Bungie's current minimum of never.

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Drops are definitely troublesome this time around.

by Schedonnardus, Texas, Monday, October 16, 2017, 08:49 (2396 days ago) @ Claude Errera

I only have my warlock at the moment. I'm at IB rank 9, and have gotten the helmet, chest and bond. As far as weapons, I've gotten several grenade launchers, scout, pulse, and heavy fusion rifle.

I got the helmet early on, and didn't get the bond and chest until later.

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RNGesus smiles upon you.

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Monday, October 16, 2017, 08:51 (2396 days ago) @ Schedonnardus

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22 Packages, Full Titan Armor, all weapons but HC

by Harmanimus @, Monday, October 16, 2017, 13:23 (2395 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

I was really, really fortunate on my drops. But I still got Multiples on the Helmet, Legs, the Mark (a friend got 7-8 Titan marks before any other armor dropped), AR, SMG, Pulse, and Grenade Launcher. Packages 21 and 22 got me the Chest and Arms.

I got really, really lucky compared to most of the experiences I've gotten anecdotally. The fact that there is no way to buy specific items is also really disheartening. Even if it were 30-40 tokens for the dedicated weapon/armor for the event I'm sure that people would happily avoid getting a 4th SMG or 8th Mark for that.

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Drops are definitely troublesome this time around.

by Kahzgul, Monday, October 16, 2017, 14:23 (2395 days ago) @ Claude Errera

I turned in 200 tokens last night. I got 3 butt towels (already had one, at 305), and NO OTHER ARMOR AT ALL. The number of repeated weapons was astounding - I got zero new weapons, ONLY repeats, and up to 4 of the same gun multiple times.

Hmm... wait, that's wrong. I DID get one new weapon - the grenade launcher. But I also got 4 hand cannons, 3 submachine guns, 3 pulse rifles, etc etc etc.

It was a SERIOUS letdown. I have 4 pieces of armor, total (3 on my Titan, one on my Warlock), out of somewhere between 25 and 40 packages.

That, to me, seems broken.

Totally broken. I got 3 armor pieces on my hunter (helm, arms, chest) in about 12 packages and I consider myself *insanely* lucky. IMO it should have been a guaranteed piece for every odd turn in with a guaranteed (and different) new weapon for every even turn in.

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Today, we fix Iron Banner.

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, October 16, 2017, 08:46 (2396 days ago) @ ManKitten

First of all, I appreciate your effort to offer constructive criticism.

We'll find out soon enough, but I'm willing to bet that season one last until the first DLC drops. I hope so. I'm not going up eight ranks tonight.

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Today, we fix Iron Banner.

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Monday, October 16, 2017, 08:51 (2396 days ago) @ Kermit

First of all, I appreciate your effort to offer constructive criticism.

We'll find out soon enough, but I'm willing to bet that season one last until the first DLC drops. I hope so. I'm not going up eight ranks tonight.

What!? you haven't hit rank 10 on all of your characters on both consoles yet? You have set a standard Kermit and you are letting yourself down!

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Today, we fix Iron Banner.

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, October 16, 2017, 12:06 (2395 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

First of all, I appreciate your effort to offer constructive criticism.

We'll find out soon enough, but I'm willing to bet that season one last until the first DLC drops. I hope so. I'm not going up eight ranks tonight.


What!? you haven't hit rank 10 on all of your characters on both consoles yet? You have set a standard Kermit and you are letting yourself down!

Heh. The crucible page of my record books was always an embarrassment.

There's a serious point here. Destiny has required less effort to keep up as time as gone on, and one of the most pleasant surprises of D2 was the continuation of this trend. Progression has been swift, and I've yet to feel inadequate for any activity because I didn't have X weapon or gear. It's even more tempting to play on PC (if only I had the hardware). I don't think I'll ever do what I did to myself in Y1, though. My Destiny playtime was, um, problematic.

Luke Smith said he plays one character per season, whatever that means. (This is one reason I think seasons will be based on DLC. It's a good demarcation.) I think one character (per platform) per season might be a healthy approach to me, too.

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My thoughts

by CyberKN ⌂ @, Oh no, Destiny 2 is bad, Tuesday, October 17, 2017, 15:15 (2394 days ago) @ ManKitten

[image]

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+1

by Grizzlei ⌂ @, Pacific Cloud Zone, Earth, Tuesday, October 17, 2017, 15:17 (2394 days ago) @ CyberKN

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I was wrong... ^THIS^ is the post of the day

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Tuesday, October 17, 2017, 17:30 (2394 days ago) @ CyberKN

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