Harder to ignore

https://www.rollingstone.com/glixel/news/how-activision-uses-matchmaking-tricks-to-sell-in-game-items-w509288

Activision has a new patent on a system to convince people to buy microtransactions:

"For example, in one implementation, the system may include a microtransaction engine that arranges matches to influence game-related purchases," according to the patent. "For instance, the microtransaction engine may match a more expert/marquee player with a junior player to encourage the junior player to make game-related purchases of items possessed/used by the marquee player. A junior player may wish to emulate the marquee player by obtaining weapons or other items used by the marquee player."

In a particular example, the junior player may wish to become an expert sniper in a game (e.g., as determined from the player profile)," according to the patent. "The microtransaction engine may match the junior player with a player that is a highly skilled sniper in the game. In this manner, the junior player may be encouraged to make game-related purchases such as a rifle or other item used by the marquee player. "

Of course, Deej says it's not in Destiny:

https://twitter.com/DeeJ_BNG/status/920401730684166146

I'm not really that comforted by the response. They didn't say they would never use that system in Destiny. They didn't say that they disagree with the system, just that it currently is not in there…

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With any luck the public outcry will keep this away. Note that even Activision is already distancing themselves from it:

This was an exploratory patent filed in 2015 by an R&D team working independently from our game studios," an Activision spokesperson tells Glixel. "It has not been implemented in-game.

Oh, and I do find the whole concept of “exploratory patents” to be tasteful... Either make something and patent it or don’t. This half way “we patented something that isn’t real and doesn’t actually exist” is crazy!

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With any luck the public outcry will keep this away. Note that even Activision is already distancing themselves from it:

This was an exploratory patent filed in 2015 by an R&D team working independently from our game studios," an Activision spokesperson tells Glixel. "It has not been implemented in-game.

I really, really hope that's true and continues to be true in the future.

Then again, we're talking about a giant video game publisher, and those guys never lie, pinky promise.

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Bungie says Destiny won't have micro transactions.

Bungie launches Destiny without micro transactions.

Activision concerned about revenue generation from the game given its cost to make.

Bungie adds micro transactions to Destiny.

Activision patents system to encourage more micro transaction purchases

Next step to be determined.

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Bungie says Destiny won't have micro transactions.

When did this happen?

Not saying I’m a fan, but I don’t remember a statement like this.

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Well, a week before Claude posted this.

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Well, a week before Claude posted this.

Heh, that OP is a “peak Cody” post right there ;p <3

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Well, a week before Claude posted this.

Heh, that OP is a “peak Cody” post right there ;p <3

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Well, a week before Claude posted this.

Good to know where they have shifted. Lame

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With any luck the public outcry will keep this away

lol

That's not how this works. This is how it works:

(News comes out Game Company might do Bad Thing)
Person A: "Wow, this is troubling"
Person B: "Game Company would never do this, stop being negative"

(Game Company does Bad Thing)
Person A: "Wow, this sucks"
Person B: "No it doesn't, it's a Good Thing and you need to like it or leave it, hater"

Anyone who has endorsed or condoned microtransactions in Destiny shouldn't really have any ground (or reason) to criticize this patent though: if you've accepted that microtransactions are a Good Thing, why would it be a Bad Thing for Bungie to encourage people to buy them surreptitiously? Of course in this case we'll probably never know if/when this get implemented in whatever game we're playing.

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If you don’t know something is implemented, then just how bad can it be?

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If you don’t know something is implemented, then just how bad can it be?

Not sure if serious.

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To expand just a bit, we all probably agree that this system is yucky, but what if it was already in a game you've loved playing and had been for years? Just how mad can you really get it if had no effect that you noticed?

I get being outraged on principle, but at some point there's a bunch of things happening ever second, every millisecond, in our games that we don't individually know about. If you're matched with a player with good latency, a comparable skill level, proper power level, who past data shows will play well with or against you, and he was picked because he had a funny hat or a weapon skin that someone with equal values in all those criteria didn't have... and you are never told this is the case... how hurt were you, really?

I'd far rather video games go up to $70 or $80 or $90 base price to cover the increased cost of production than have microtransactions, but again, if you don’t know something is implemented, then just how bad can it be?

Yes, I'm playing a mix of a large amount of actual belief and a bit of devil's advocate here, but the sorta bigger issues of "is every single microtransaction related thing evil" also deserves to be addressed as well. Treating this additional layer of matchmaking as "objectively bad" or whatever is probably going a step to far.

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To expand just a bit, we all probably agree that this system is yucky, but what if it was already in a game you've loved playing and had been for years? Just how mad can you really get it if had no effect that you noticed?

This was my point as well. It's not cool that it's happening but is the issue here that it IS happening or that we are actually BEING TOLD that it's happening.

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This was my point as well. It's not cool that it's happening but is the issue here that it IS happening or that we are actually BEING TOLD that it's happening.

Neither, really. As far as we know, it hasn't actually been implemented, so it's all theoretical.

Theoretically, I would still find it annoying. I can't stand pushy sales tactics, I've always had a special hatred for people who actively try to nudge me towards buying things that I've shown no interest in. That's not the same thing as being able to say I've been harmed by it in some quantifiable way - I just find the idea irritating.

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Thanks for expanding! I still don't necessarily agree that I need to be noticeably harmed in order to find the idea annoying, but I get where you're coming from now.

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I would suggest that honest irritation is a qualification of sufficiently harmed as it will have damaged your calm. Irritation is actually at the core of my problems with a lot of things and I definitely would consider experiences harmed by it as such.

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There is a reality outside of your perception.

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If you don’t know something is implemented, then just how bad can it be?

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With any luck the public outcry will keep this away

lol

That's not how this works. This is how it works:

(News comes out Game Company might do Bad Thing)
Person A: "Wow, this is troubling"
Person B: "Game Company would never do this, stop being negative"

(Game Company does Bad Thing)
Person A: "Wow, this sucks"
Person B: "No it doesn't, it's a Good Thing and you need to like it or leave it, hater"

Anyone who has endorsed or condoned microtransactions in Destiny shouldn't really have any ground (or reason) to criticize this patent though: if you've accepted that microtransactions are a Good Thing, why would it be a Bad Thing for Bungie to encourage people to buy them surreptitiously? Of course in this case we'll probably never know if/when this get implemented in whatever game we're playing.

Look I think buying/selling ice cream is A+, but if I saw some ice cream person "surreptitiously" selling ice cream, that would be unnerving and... not good.

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With any luck the public outcry will keep this away

lol

That's not how this works. This is how it works:

(News comes out Game Company might do Bad Thing)
Person A: "Wow, this is troubling"
Person B: "Game Company would never do this, stop being negative"

(Game Company does Bad Thing)
Person A: "Wow, this sucks"
Person B: "No it doesn't, it's a Good Thing and you need to like it or leave it, hater"

You need to change "Person B" to "Person C" in the second grouping. Because there's nothing that suggests that the same person who'd say the first thing (I've said close to the first thing - though with 'probably not' instead of 'never') would say the second (I've never said the second).

Anyone who has endorsed or condoned microtransactions in Destiny shouldn't really have any ground (or reason) to criticize this patent though: if you've accepted that microtransactions are a Good Thing, why would it be a Bad Thing for Bungie to encourage people to buy them surreptitiously? Of course in this case we'll probably never know if/when this get implemented in whatever game we're playing.

I've accepted that microtransactions are an okay thing - they don't affect me directly, and indirectly they fund stuff I would otherwise have to pay for. I do NOT agree that it follows that someone actively trying to subvert my actions without being honest about it is also an okay thing.

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I've accepted that microtransactions are an okay thing - they don't affect me directly, and indirectly they fund stuff I would otherwise have to pay for. I do NOT agree that it follows that someone actively trying to subvert my actions without being honest about it is also an okay thing.

I also don’t buy that the microtransactions are indirectly funding things you would otherwise have to pay for. I can’t prove my doubts, and you can’t prove that they are. I’m not saying all microtransactions are bad, either, but I don’t buy the funding argument after years of observing and seeing reporting on EA, Ubisoft, and even Activision. And with year 3 of Destiny 1, not buying it with Bungie either.

Edit: That’s not to say that microtransactions never fund stuff. I just don’t buy it in general.

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Well, I tell myself as long as I don´t really spend money in the Eververse store, it should not matter. If it partly pays off debt to investors, that is also sort of important. Only less marketable.

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I disagree. I'm fine with microtransactions, because they're cosmetic. I can ignore them.

But I wouldn't want a metric I don't care about affecting matchmaking, which I do care about?

Somebody might have beat me to this, so I won't go on much more, but yeah that's how you can split your opinion.

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Meh. I am not a fan of micro transactions either, but I don´t subscribe to this kind of absolutism:P People are free to draw the line where ever they want, dude.

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With any luck the public outcry will keep this away. Note that even Activision is already distancing themselves from it:

This was an exploratory patent filed in 2015 by an R&D team working independently from our game studios," an Activision spokesperson tells Glixel. "It has not been implemented in-game.

Oh, and I do find the whole concept of “exploratory patents” to be tasteful... Either make something and patent it or don’t. This half way “we patented something that isn’t real and doesn’t actually exist” is crazy!

It's not that it does not exist, but rather that it has not been offered in the marketplace. They made it. (there are cases where it really seems like they have granted patents for things that have never actually been made and that's not how Patents work.)

justly ,Trademark has a requirement that the market be used in trade for it to continue to be protected.

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In a particular example, the junior player may wish to become an expert sniper in a game (e.g., as determined from the player profile)," according to the patent. "The microtransaction engine may match the junior player with a player that is a highly skilled sniper in the game. In this manner, the junior player may be encouraged to make game-related purchases such as a rifle or other item used by the marquee player. "

Honestly, I don't see this as a big deal. This is already the culture that surrounds the principle of micro transactions. Someone buys a perk thinking it will make them better. The person who would do this doesn't need to be led to that decisions because of a patented algorithm. This is one of those stories where, we all know how it works without it being said...this story is just saying it.

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In a particular example, the junior player may wish to become an expert sniper in a game (e.g., as determined from the player profile)," according to the patent. "The microtransaction engine may match the junior player with a player that is a highly skilled sniper in the game. In this manner, the junior player may be encouraged to make game-related purchases such as a rifle or other item used by the marquee player. "

Honestly, I don't see this as a big deal. This is already the culture that surrounds the principle of micro transactions. Someone buys a perk thinking it will make them better. The person who would do this doesn't need to be led to that decisions because of a patented algorithm. This is one of those stories where, we all know how it works without it being said...this story is just saying it.

There’s just something so sleazy about it, IMO. Imagine if Destiny intentionally found PS4 players who hadn’t pre-ordered and matched them specifically with other players who were using Coldheart, just to rub their noses in it. “Looks cool, huh? Better pre-order next time!” Ugh.

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In a particular example, the junior player may wish to become an expert sniper in a game (e.g., as determined from the player profile)," according to the patent. "The microtransaction engine may match the junior player with a player that is a highly skilled sniper in the game. In this manner, the junior player may be encouraged to make game-related purchases such as a rifle or other item used by the marquee player. "

Honestly, I don't see this as a big deal. This is already the culture that surrounds the principle of micro transactions. Someone buys a perk thinking it will make them better. The person who would do this doesn't need to be led to that decisions because of a patented algorithm. This is one of those stories where, we all know how it works without it being said...this story is just saying it.

There’s just something so sleazy about it, IMO. Imagine if Destiny intentionally found PS4 players who hadn’t pre-ordered and matched them specifically with other players who were using Coldheart, just to rub their noses in it. “Looks cool, huh? Better pre-order next time!” Ugh.

That’s called the raid under guided games.

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That’s called the raid under guided games.

I want everyone to know that I've beaten the Raid four times and we've never had more than two Cold Hearts. It's overrated (it's really good, but not the end all be all) and you can use many other weapons. Maybe it'll be more popular for prestige mode, but not normal mode.

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The thing about Coldheart IMO is that while it is good at damaging bosses, it's not so great against normal adds which are smaller and usually more skittish - difficult to keep it on target. So you are giving up some of your flexibility against adds by replacing a more "normal" energy weapon with it. I have one but I almost never equip it for that reason, except in specific scenarios.

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I used Uriel’s Gift last time I ran the Raid and was consistently second in terms of damage dealt with everyone else using Coldheart. It’s definitely overrated. The benefit is not in DPS but in that you don’t have to manage recoil and that it’s easier to just point it at the weak spot and hold the trigger.

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I used Uriel’s Gift last time I ran the Raid and was consistently second in terms of damage dealt with everyone else using Coldheart. It’s definitely overrated. The benefit is not in DPS but in that you don’t have to manage recoil and that it’s easier to just point it at the weak spot and hold the trigger.

This, plus ammo. Relying on your Power weapon to damage the boss can be a bit of a risk, because you’ll often find yourself without Power ammo when the damage phase happens. So using an Energy or Kinetic weapon is safer in that regard, assuming you have one that does high DPS (such as Cold Heart)

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I used Uriel’s Gift last time I ran the Raid and was consistently second in terms of damage dealt with everyone else using Coldheart. It’s definitely overrated. The benefit is not in DPS but in that you don’t have to manage recoil and that it’s easier to just point it at the weak spot and hold the trigger.

This, plus ammo. Relying on your Power weapon to damage the boss can be a bit of a risk, because you’ll often find yourself without Power ammo when the damage phase happens. So using an Energy or Kinetic weapon is safer in that regard, assuming you have one that does high DPS (such as Cold Heart)

I never, ever touch mine. There are so many other weapons that perform way better. It was a good decision to make it a pre-order bonus, since it doesn't impact the overall meta, so there isn't much to cry about for those that don't have one.

I just wish it slowed on hit or froze grenades in the air or something.

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I used Uriel’s Gift last time I ran the Raid and was consistently second in terms of damage dealt with everyone else using Coldheart. It’s definitely overrated. The benefit is not in DPS but in that you don’t have to manage recoil and that it’s easier to just point it at the weak spot and hold the trigger.

This, plus ammo. Relying on your Power weapon to damage the boss can be a bit of a risk, because you’ll often find yourself without Power ammo when the damage phase happens. So using an Energy or Kinetic weapon is safer in that regard, assuming you have one that does high DPS (such as Cold Heart)

I never, ever touch mine. There are so many other weapons that perform way better.

lol - I agreed with most of the thread up until this line.

There are certainly weapons that perform almost as well against Calus. I would challenge you to provide ONE example of a weapon that performs better (never mind "way better") against him.

(It's the only place I use Coldheart - but it's definitely the highest-DPS choice in this fight.)

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(It's the only place I use Coldheart - but it's definitely the highest-DPS choice in this fight.)

There are DPS breakdowns that show that’s not necessarily true. Again, it comes down to not having to deal with recoil and player comfort. The big takeaway is that you can honestly use a wide range of weapons and get the same or better DPS, but Coldheart is easy to use and you can pretty reliably have ammo for it.

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(It's the only place I use Coldheart - but it's definitely the highest-DPS choice in this fight.)

There are DPS breakdowns that show that’s not necessarily true. Again, it comes down to not having to deal with recoil and player comfort. The big takeaway is that you can honestly use a wide range of weapons and get the same or better DPS, but Coldheart is easy to use and you can pretty reliably have ammo for it.

So a real test would involve the same player (or players, preferably) using Coldheart and alternatives, and comparing the results. That would account for 'player comfort' and the ability to handle recoil, and leave only DPS, right?

Do you have links to any of these breakdowns (the ones that show that Coldheart isn't better than the alternatives)? I haven't seen any, and I'm pretty curious.

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You’re right, it’s extremely hard to test. How many stacks did the away team get, how long were you on the platform for, did you get ammo drops, etc.

I saw it in a Reddit post a few weeks ago. I’ll dig for it when I get off work and am not on mobile. I do know that Datto did a video in which he tested individual weapons and also different combinations of weapons trying to account for ammo scarcity and such, which showed that Coldheart is as good as we know it is, but that Sweet Business and a good sniper works, and that Merciless with a pair of good Auto Rifles works. I don’t know that he ever came up with hard numbers though.

I’ve seen a few videos of similar nature, but I’ll have to see if I can find them when I get home.

I like that it’s still a question and that nearly anything seems viable, with the real determining factor being player action. I’m glad we don’t have a Gjallarhorn equivalent.

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This video actually makes Coldheart look like straight garbage by comparison.

Just a few numbers copied from the video (all damage numbers are from a single platform)

Merciless, Force of Will x 60
163,800 dmg

Merciless also does do critical damage despite not showing yellow numbers, which is just a side note, but something I didn't know.

Tarantula, Force of Will x 59
186,333 dmg

Show of Force, Force of Will x 59
194,856 dmg

Sins of the Past, Force of Will x 59
198,667 dmg

Coldheart, Force of Will x 62
130,000 dmg

Sweet Business, Force of Will x 59
141,598 dmg (with Rally Barricade for instant reload, half of that damage without Rally Barricade)

And here's Datto's video, which is half an hour long, and much to in-depth to efficiently summarize, but it's worth a watch if you really care. I'm increasingly convinced that Coldheart is a good choice, but far from the best choice, and, again, it mostly will come down to player skill/comfort with a preferred loadout.

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I really wish you could see the stats screen after a successful completion.

We ran the raid last night, and I used Nameless Midnight, Uriel's Gift, and Merciless for Calus. We only had one or two Coldhearts, going, I think, and we were literally about a second away from two-phasing him with 70 skulls. Two or three people in the group were completely out of ammo on the last platform, so we sort of got screwed.

It's such a difficult fight to get consistent enough to get real numbers from, it seems like.

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When we were learning the encounter, I was consistently out-damaging people (often by a lot) using Merciless for the two platforms closest, then Scathelocke for the further platforms. However, this probably only works if you are on the Throne Room team - you end up with tons of Power ammo on that side from the Psions. Unfortunately you still don't see damage numbers on successful runs, so I haven't compared recently.

Edit: Or, now that I think about it, it could also be managing to use 2 Vortex grenades if I tether the dogs during a platform changeover.

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When we were learning the encounter, I was consistently out-damaging people (often by a lot) using Relentless for the two platforms closest, then Scathelocke for the further platforms. However, this probably only works if you are on the Throne Room team - you end up with tons of Power ammo on that side from the Psions. Unfortunately you still don't see damage numbers on successful runs, so I haven't compared recently.

You're talking about Merciless, right? (I don't think I've ever heard of Relentless.)

I compared my own numbers in Chappy's raid (Sins of the Past on the first platform, with a Rally Barricade for fast reloading, then Coldheart on subsequent platforms, with Rally Barricade on 1-2 of those) to numbers with other groups (Coldheart all the way through, no Rally Barricade), and the combo was DEFINITELY better, by a significant amount. But there are so many variables that it's nearly impossible to say what made the real difference - I'm guessing that the instant reload was a bigger factor than the guns, but that's just gut feeling.

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You're talking about Merciless, right? (I don't think I've ever heard of Relentless.)

Yes, yes of course.

(I kinda think Relentless is more descriptive of what the weapon does)

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You're talking about Merciless, right? (I don't think I've ever heard of Relentless.)

Yes, yes of course.

(I kinda think Relentless is more descriptive of what the weapon does)

Heh - I agree, would have been a better name for the gun. :)

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I used Uriel’s Gift last time I ran the Raid and was consistently second in terms of damage dealt with everyone else using Coldheart. It’s definitely overrated. The benefit is not in DPS but in that you don’t have to manage recoil and that it’s easier to just point it at the weak spot and hold the trigger.

This, plus ammo. Relying on your Power weapon to damage the boss can be a bit of a risk, because you’ll often find yourself without Power ammo when the damage phase happens. So using an Energy or Kinetic weapon is safer in that regard, assuming you have one that does high DPS (such as Cold Heart)

I never, ever touch mine. There are so many other weapons that perform way better.

lol - I agreed with most of the thread up until this line.

There are certainly weapons that perform almost as well against Calus. I would challenge you to provide ONE example of a weapon that performs better (never mind "way better") against him.

(It's the only place I use Coldheart - but it's definitely the highest-DPS choice in this fight.)

Ah, my bad. I meant in general, not specifically against Calus. I see why some folks use it, it's almost like an easy-mode DPS machine. Personally, I tend to use linear fusions on bosses/larger enemies because Fusion + crit damage is a good time and I don't necessarily have to stay out from cover.

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I used Uriel’s Gift last time I ran the Raid and was consistently second in terms of damage dealt with everyone else using Coldheart. It’s definitely overrated. The benefit is not in DPS but in that you don’t have to manage recoil and that it’s easier to just point it at the weak spot and hold the trigger.

This, plus ammo. Relying on your Power weapon to damage the boss can be a bit of a risk, because you’ll often find yourself without Power ammo when the damage phase happens. So using an Energy or Kinetic weapon is safer in that regard, assuming you have one that does high DPS (such as Cold Heart)

You can get four free heavy ammo bricks per phase by punching the psions. That spawns two extra orange bars. You really only run out of heavy in that fight if you want to.

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There’s just something so sleazy about it, IMO. Imagine if Destiny intentionally found PS4 players who hadn’t pre-ordered and matched them specifically with other players who were using Coldheart, just to rub their noses in it. “Looks cool, huh? Better pre-order next time!” Ugh.

Well, to be completely fair I don't think that EXACT scenario would happen, just because the players in that scenario can't actually get Coldheart anymore. I mean sure, in theory it MIGHT encourage them to preorder next time, but that's a big maybe. I get the feeling that Activision's interested in making an immediate sale with this. More likely they'd use it (in Destiny's case) to push the latest DLC/expansion by showing people gear that came with said DLC. Of course, I still think that sounds distasteful.

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Activision has a new patent on a system to convince people to buy microtransactions:

"For example, in one implementation, the system may include a microtransaction engine that arranges matches to influence game-related purchases," according to the patent. "For instance, the microtransaction engine may match a more expert/marquee player with a junior player to encourage the junior player to make game-related purchases of items possessed/used by the marquee player. A junior player may wish to emulate the marquee player by obtaining weapons or other items used by the marquee player."

In a particular example, the junior player may wish to become an expert sniper in a game (e.g., as determined from the player profile)," according to the patent. "The microtransaction engine may match the junior player with a player that is a highly skilled sniper in the game. In this manner, the junior player may be encouraged to make game-related purchases such as a rifle or other item used by the marquee player. "

Regardless they are, regardless they arn't, this shows want and intent. Gameafied games. The only way this stops now, as far as I can tell, is if the line that keeps getting pushed, breaks. No idea what that would look like through.

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I think arguing that a patent shows intent is questionable, with how often patents are aquired for holding purposes. Not that they don't have intent to use it, this is Activision, just that I don't think having a patent is illustrative of that.

And someone can correct me if I'm wrong (I don't have hard data) but i'm pretty sure that in most cases the target of something like this is going to already be predisposed to the purchase of said microtransactions, as generally pushy tactics aren't what sells small, repeated items.

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I think arguing that a patent shows intent is questionable, with how often patents are aquired for holding purposes. Not that they don't have intent to use it, this is Activision, just that I don't think having a patent is illustrative of that.

And someone can correct me if I'm wrong (I don't have hard data) but i'm pretty sure that in most cases the target of something like this is going to already be predisposed to the purchase of said microtransactions, as generally pushy tactics aren't what sells small, repeated items.

I accept that I may be giving this too much a slippery slope fallacy, yet I find that this idea was even pitched at all is already too much.

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Yeah. It is business so I do hold my own concerns. I was actually more surprised someone hadn't patent sniped the idea to cash in on the eventuality of a publisher having this idea.

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Yeah. It is business so I do hold my own concerns. I was actually more surprised someone hadn't patent sniped the idea to cash in on the eventuality of a publisher having this idea.

They very well may have. There don't seem to be very good mechanisms in place to prevent similar patents from being granted - often companies don't find out until the lawsuit. Which won't happen until there's an implementation.

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Soylent green is why

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