Avatar

Something’s Missing: Characters That Do Things (Destiny)

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Thursday, April 26, 2018, 19:48 (2223 days ago)

In Bungie’s Halo games, of course the player character (usually the Master Chief, but also the Rookie and Noble 6 and the Arbiter) did a bunch of important things. Ultimately we defeated the Flood and the Covenant among many many other acts of small and large scale. But, in the Halo series, storyline characters also did a lot. For instance:

Captain Keyes directed the Chief to the Silent Cartographer island and… unfortunately… unsealed the Flood.

Miranda Keyes and Sargent Johnson retrieved the Delta Halo’s Index and ultimately stopped Tartarus alongside the Arbiter. They also brought the Chief a tank or two and shutdown one of the shield generator towers on Delta Halo. Johnson even nearly activated the entire Halo array with some help from the Prophet of Truth.

As mentioned, the Arbiter did a lot. He killed many Humans and lead the forces that overran Reach. He lost Halo 04 and was punished. He was betrayed by the Prophets and switched sides where he helped prevent the Covenant from firing the Halos.

Buck, Dare, Dutch, Romeo, and Mickey all had their own separate journeys and accomplishments after the Prophet of Regret fled New Mombasa. They rescued marines, blew up the ONI building, and obtained a valuable prize that would help the UNSC win the war. (I guess… did rescuing the Engineer ever actually come up again?)

Nobel Team, as well, accomplished a lot without Noble 6’s direct intervention. Most notably, Jorge stayed behind to take out the Supercarrier, Kat was vital multiple times in keeping communication lines open, Carter rammed the Scarab, Jun planted explosives critical to assaulting the Covenant’s front line, and Emile helped protect the Pillar of Autumn.

The What:

These kind of things have not happened in Destiny. Certainly not in such a direct, in-game way. And even pulling in the lore doesn’t help things much.

The Iron Lords had some of the biggest impacts in Destiny so far. They helped end the tyranny of Light bearers with bad motives. They almost certainly founded The City. They helped prevent the spread of SIVA… after they woke it up… Lord Saladin remained active and on patrol for the next 500ish years and presumably kept groups of Fallen at bay, but we don’t hear much about his actions after his brother and sister Iron Lords were killed.

Then there’s the old heroes like Shin Malphur and Rezyl Azzir. Rezyl was one of the most powerful heroes of the early City but then was corrupted by the Hive, became Dregden Yor and murdered many including at least one Guardian. Shin Malphur tracked down and had a Last Word with Dregden Yor and continued to advise The City up to the current day.

Pahanin, Kabr, and Praedyth all accomplished a little in the Vault of Glass that ultimately helped our Guardian defeat the Vex there. But they did all that in the past and we never met them.

Of Guardians in the Tower, Shaxx and the others helped defend The City’s walls during the Battle of Twilight Gap. And he runs the Crucible. But apparently all he does these days is… run the Crucible.

Eris Morn failed to kill Crota and then enacted some plan with Mara Sov (Queen of the Reef) which saw Mara apparently killed and had Eris leave to peruse the Hive further and she hasn’t been heard from since.

Toland the Shattered apparently learned how the Hive transcend death and is busy with some mad scheme. Maybe he’s helping. Maybe he’s becoming a new Hive god. But he vanished into the Hive realms back when his fireteam failed to kill Crota…

The Exo Stranger pointed us in a good direction but always showed up before or after we did the fighting.

Osiris kinda helped foil a annoyingly vague Vex threat and has disappeared into the Infinite Forest where he occasionally almost helps the Vex destroy Humanity.

Saint-14 tried to seek out Osiris and instead got trapped in the Infinite Forest. He killed so many Vex, armies of them, that they came to respect him, but they also eventually figured out how to kill him meaning we never got to see him in action.

Asher Mir got his arm replaced with a Vex arm that is killing him and helped a little in advising us how to kill the Almighty… but he never left or leaves Io.

What about the Tower Leadershp? Well… what about them. Mostly, they lead from the top instead of getting out there and fighting.

Ikora Rey was supposedly really good in the Crucible and does have her network of Hidden which, aside from Eris Morn, we’ve heard little to no impact from. She did help us get back into the Infinite Forest but then stayed outside and… what… hoped for the best?

Cayde-6 lost a bet and so was forced into the role of Vanguard. He did have some adventures on the moon, but nowadays, he mostly pawns his work off on other Guardians while having the occasional good idea.

The Speaker… according to the Osiris comics… exiled Osiris when Osiris dared to consider that maybe we have something to learn from our enemies. And then he got captured by Ghaul and his entire gotcha moment was admitting that… he served no real purpose… at all. Take that, Ghaul???

And then there’s Zavala. He’s the commander of The City’s defenses and the leader of the Vanguard. But what has he ever done that we know about? He was there as The City built its great walls. He probably helped evacuate civilians when the Fallen set fire to London… and… I suppose he helped protect some civilians when the Red Legion attacked The Tower and kinda helped clear our way to fight Ghaul… but that’s it. Even reaching into the deepest, most speculative bit of lore I know about… it’s possible that Zavala sorta abandoned the Queen of the Reef to help defend The City and the Traveler… but there’s not enough out there to pin that down anywhere near conclusively.

The Why

Why does it feel like characters from Halo did a lot more than similarly placed characters in Destiny?

Well, for one, many of the Halo characters died for the greater good. Not all of them accomplished something with their deaths, but many did. As of yet, only Mara Sov has given her life for the greater good. (Yes, she’s probably coming back eventually, but I think it does her a disservice to discount her sacrifice in this context… at least until we learn more if and when she returns.)

That said, I tend to think that killing off a character, while sometimes impactful, isn’t and shouldn’t be the only way they can make a different. And in that, Halo has a massive lead over Destiny.

We played along side every single significant Halo character that I can think of. And even when we weren’t fighting beside them, they were frequently involved in important missions that accomplished important things. For instance, sure the Chief and Miranda split up on Delta Halo, but she and Johnson retrieved the Index.

In Destiny, Only Osiris, Eris, Saladin, and Ikora have ever directly assisted our Guardians during our missions as far as I can recall. Osiris, in the end, directly helps us defeat the Vex mind in the Infinite Forest. Eris pulled us away from Crota’s Death Ceremony. Ikora, as mentioned was there to open the Infinite Forest. And Saladin swooped in and shot a couple of Fallen who appeared behind us. Ok, sure… I guess the Vanguard did help a little in the retaking of the City, as well.

But almost every other major action taken by a hero figure in Destiny was taken in the past long before our Ghost even found our Guardian. What we mostly got from the other heroes in Destiny’s story so far is voice overs and radioed instructions.

Possible Solutions:

I am a little hesitant to suggest killing off characters as a solution. Partially because it seems like the easiest way out, and partially because you should only kill an important character if they’d done important things that has made the player care about them. If you kill off someone who has done absolutely nothing in game or in lore… well you just killed off the Speaker to no appearing consequence…

But, as hesitant as I am, a good character death would and could be impactful. Again, it would have to be done right which basically means that character would need to be more involved in things any Destiny character to date, but a good death would help.

A time when all Guardians have been stripped of their light would seem to be a great time for tragic heroism. Oh well.

So, maybe that’s step one. Get at least one of the current Destiny characters actually involved in the story. Get them out of the Tower. Get them into the world. They don’t necessarily need to fight beside us as AI controlled heroes often don’t fight well enough to match our expectations (though Ikora killing that one dropship with a Nova Bomb was pretty neat) but if they aren’t beside us they need to be obviously and actively doing something just as important as the things we’re doing.

For best results, have them in cutscenes, and have them destroy or deactivate, or delay something that directly and visibly helps us in our in-game mission. (Amanda Holliday turning off the shield walls as we retook The City was a small example of this.)

In a way, this is sorta a combination and culmination of the other Something’s Missing topics. But… I think this is ultimately the most important. If you get good characters and characters actions you’ve instantly got much better story. If you have better story, you’ll have better missions and gameplay. And if Destiny had better story and gameplay it would be more like the thing that it seemed Bungie initially set out for it to be.

I want the Destiny that was supposed to be “bigger than Halo.”

Avatar

Something’s Missing: Characters That Do Things

by cheapLEY @, Thursday, April 26, 2018, 20:29 (2223 days ago) @ Ragashingo

I almost don't even want to weight in--it's too depressing, and I'll struggle to find anything good to say.

Cayde is the perfect example. He supposedly hates being cooped up in the Tower all day, but the first chance he has to legitimately get out and about and do something, he pawns it off on us to do instead.

Excluding the lore and grimoire stuff, Destiny is filled with the most basic, surface-level only writing. It's all very basic stuff that seems like it's just duct-taped together to give players the barest bit of context for what we're doing, and no one sat down and asked "Is this compelling? Does it even make sense? Why are these characters acting this way?" The answer to that last question mostly just always seems to be, "Well, someone has to tell the player what to do, and Cayde did it last time, so now it's Ikora's turn for a bit."

There's an amazing universe to explore in Destiny, and the lore cards and old grimoire did so. The Guardians of yore were worthy of stories--the characters we actually get to see in the game could be replaced by kiosks and it wouldn't be any less interesting.

Avatar

Something’s Missing: Characters That Do Things

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Thursday, April 26, 2018, 22:23 (2223 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Yeah... the Vanguard in particular could use some direction that fits with their character... or rather what their characters should be....

For Ikora:

I think her storyline in Destiny 2 was suppose to be about a couple of things. First and foremost, Ikora ran away from her duties as a Guardian because she was terrified of dying. There are moments that this comes through well enough when you stand near her on Io. It’s subtle but it’s there. The second change in her character in Destiny 2 seemed to be about... admitting that she did not have all the answers.

For her, there are a number of ways I might go. First, I’d have her discover something new. Something about the Light or Darkness that was previously unknown. Perhaps something troubling. It’s already been hinted at that Light and Darkness are two sides of the same coin, for instance. So I’d have her struggle with that. Explore that. Maybe abuse it a little before choosing the Light.

To fulfill and continue her fear of dying her final death, I think she need to react or possibly even overreact to her cowardice and fear. Maybe this would take the form throwing herself into impossible situations. Or maybe that’s what Guardians already do and instead she might do something like push herself to exhaustion engaging The City’s enemies again and again while doing her best not to be hit or injured or killed. Maybe without using her Light.

“We must all be ready to fight at our best even if the Light fails us as it has before and may do again,” Ikora insisted when she was finally able catch her breath.

Or, maybe she seeks out pain and punishment. Going into battle but not healing herself / allowing her Ghost to heal. Imagine her taking perverse pleasure in feeling her lifeblood draining away. It would be up to us or another character to pull her back from the sick path she has put herself on. Alas, Destiny is only T for Teen...

For Cayde-6

He actually did alright by going out and doing something kinda useful in Destiny, but at the same time he wasn’t at all effective without help. I wouldn’t want to pull Cayde-6 completely away from humor, but at the same time he needs to realize that his inability to work with Vex tech nearly cost Humanity the Red War.

I’m actually having a hard time “fixing” Cayde. How exactly do you mix his humor and impulsiveness with understanding and determination to not mess up again? It’s really a tough nut to crack. Here’s the best I came up with:

Cayde-6 needs someone to be concerned about on a personal level. Honestly, I think pairing him with one of the Ikora versions above might work. They already have something of a respectful yet slightly playful chemistry the few times they interact. Burdening Cayde-6 with a self destructive Ikora would make it so he has to blunt his wisecracks and playfulness in order to try and convince her that her choices are hurting her and others. Have Cayde-6 be a friend who is deeply concerned for the wellbeing of his friend.

Then, near the end of that story, you can have Cayde-6 break out the humor a little as the worst of the other person’s problems or issues start to fade into the past.

“I... honstely did not think you would follow me so far into this mistake of my making. Or that it would be you who pulled me back from it. Thank you,” Ikora said, as he helped her up.

“I had to... and... well... none of you ever have credited me with good decisions. Maybe I’m just here to prove you right,” Cayde-6 replied with a goad that saw the Warlock beside him unable to hold back a genuine smile.

For Zavala:

It’s a good bit easier to address the next steps of a commander who nearly lost everything. Under Zavala’s command, The City stopped expanding after The Battle of Twilight Gap. It contracted back into its tall, strong walls and effectively abandoned nearby territory regardless of the strategic value. This worked fine when The City was more or less unassailable, but by having everyone huddled in one place, they were easy pickings for the Red Legion when the Guardians lost their Light.

What Zavala should want to do is kick off a new age of expansion for The City. He would reach out to what towns and settlements exist outside The City and offer them City weapons and manpower. The Guardians under his command would be used more for strikes against enemy targets and less for defensive patrols and garrisons.

To the player this might be seen in doing missions in support of outlying towns or clearing out enemy bases that would then become outlying settlements. It would be great to have a few missions where we assist or are assisted by the Forces of The City which would consist of Frames and non-Guardian military... oh and have Zavala on the ground leading some of these FOTC troops in at least one mission.

”It may cost us, but we will take that complex back from the Fallen and show them that they will NOT be allowed to rest anywhere that The City intends to stand,” the Vanguard commander said, rallying his troops for the upcoming battle.”

Avatar

Something’s Missing: Characters That Do Things

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, April 26, 2018, 20:49 (2223 days ago) @ Ragashingo

There's a difference between Plot and Story. Characters doing things is literally plot. But we as humans respond to story…

The plot is the literal machinations of the events - it's the things that happen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Princess_Bride_(film)#Plot

This tells you the plot. It tells you the events that happen. But it doesn't tell you the story. Reading the plot elicits basically no emotional response. But the story?

True love conquers all. Wesley's love for Buttercup. Fezzik's love for his friends. Inigo's love for his father. And a grandfather's love for his grandson. That's the story. That's why we love The Princess Bride.

The plot is merely how the story happens. But when there is no story, no larger idea, it's just people doing stuff. Destiny is all plot and no story. Making characters do things would not help unless it helps Bungie tell a story. All the Halos had a story. Destiny… not so much.

Avatar

Something’s Missing: Characters That Do Things

by ManKitten, The Stugotz is strong in me., Friday, April 27, 2018, 06:29 (2223 days ago) @ Ragashingo

I'm probably the last person that needs to jump into a lore conversation but, if drawing comparisons between Halo and Destiny, from what I understand from each story, the main difference is this:

In Halo, we are literally defending our lives. The goal of the Covenant was to eliminate our existence (before we even knew about the Halo array). When making a last stand for survival, there is nothing more heroic and noble than sacrificing yourself so the others can survive the encounter or attempting that long shot tactic, because, the only other option is extinction.

In Destiny, we are defending our lives but also defending the Traveler. Cabal and Fallen don't care that much about us personally, they just want the Traveler and we are standing in the way. We are the defenders against the aggressors that are circumstantially attacking us. When defending a third party, you either succeed or fail. You can't sacrifice yourself in that situation, you just die.

(Definitely some nuance in what I just said, but hopefully you understand the point I was trying to make.)

Avatar

I have noted this before

by Durandal, Friday, April 27, 2018, 10:14 (2223 days ago) @ Ragashingo

NPCs in levels, doing stuff and interacting. Why we only got this on the first level in D2, and never again, boggles my mind.

Avatar

I have noted this before

by cheapLEY @, Friday, April 27, 2018, 11:14 (2223 days ago) @ Durandal

If the rumors of a late cycle reboot for D2 are true, I would guess just not having time to implement friendly AI was a big factor. Zavala is just an animation and occasionally popping a bubble on an infinite loop. I’d have loved to see even more scripted moments like that, but I still miss the friendly marines from Halo. The invulnerable Spartans from Reach weren’t quite as good, and AI Guardians would probably have to be closer to that than the fodder that Marines could be.

Avatar

I have noted this before

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Friday, April 27, 2018, 11:53 (2223 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Right. There's some really good reasons to not have AI controlled Guardians. But, heck, we've got Frames. Have a dropship ferry in some of them and give them a variety of funny voices and personalities. (Something that is already pretty well established in the lore!)

Avatar

I have noted this before

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Friday, April 27, 2018, 11:56 (2223 days ago) @ Ragashingo

Right. There's some really good reasons to not have AI controlled Guardians. But, heck, we've got Frames. Have a dropship ferry in some of them and give them a variety of funny voices and personalities. (Something that is already pretty well established in the lore!)

Yeah I'm still waiting for a Redjacks side mission in game (not that I actually expect it).

Avatar

I have noted this before

by cheapLEY @, Friday, April 27, 2018, 12:24 (2223 days ago) @ Ragashingo

I had honestly never considered that. That’d actually be really cool.

Avatar

I have noted this before

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Friday, April 27, 2018, 13:31 (2223 days ago) @ Ragashingo

Right. There's some really good reasons to not have AI controlled Guardians. But, heck, we've got Frames. Have a dropship ferry in some of them and give them a variety of funny voices and personalities. (Something that is already pretty well established in the lore!)

That would bring back some of the humor that Halo integrated so well.

I suspect one obstacle to having more of this sort of thing is the structure of the game, the open world aspect, and public spaces. Many missions transition through private and public spaces and maybe they just can't figure out how friendly AI would handle these different contexts. If Cayde's with you, does he stop and help you with a public event that just started?

Maybe at some point AI allies weren't considered as necessary because of the presence of drop-in matchmaking with real players. On paper Destiny seems like this really cool, dynamic, unpredictable playground, but what's missing is meaningful context, which I think is the point of your thread.

Avatar

I have noted this before

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Monday, April 30, 2018, 08:24 (2220 days ago) @ Kermit

Right. There's some really good reasons to not have AI controlled Guardians. But, heck, we've got Frames. Have a dropship ferry in some of them and give them a variety of funny voices and personalities. (Something that is already pretty well established in the lore!)


That would bring back some of the humor that Halo integrated so well.

I suspect one obstacle to having more of this sort of thing is the structure of the game, the open world aspect, and public spaces. Many missions transition through private and public spaces and maybe they just can't figure out how friendly AI would handle these different contexts. If Cayde's with you, does he stop and help you with a public event that just started?

Maybe at some point AI allies weren't considered as necessary because of the presence of drop-in matchmaking with real players. On paper Destiny seems like this really cool, dynamic, unpredictable playground, but what's missing is meaningful context, which I think is the point of your thread.

I can see it in missions. Not public spaces. It's possible that the unit count might start getting maxed in some place spaces such that they have to make a choice between more baddies + encounters or friendlies to help you out. And ultimately, people would much rather fight a hoard of baddies then have sub-par frames helping you out.

Missions on the other hand can be carefully scripted to allow dropped in frames though. I mean, I don't know what the limitations are, but most likely it's that they just don't have time to script in an AI and test all the shit that goes with that. I mean, adding in a friendly AI is a core mechanic that would have to be thoroughly tested.

Avatar

I have noted this before

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, April 30, 2018, 09:23 (2220 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

Right. There's some really good reasons to not have AI controlled Guardians. But, heck, we've got Frames. Have a dropship ferry in some of them and give them a variety of funny voices and personalities. (Something that is already pretty well established in the lore!)


That would bring back some of the humor that Halo integrated so well.

I suspect one obstacle to having more of this sort of thing is the structure of the game, the open world aspect, and public spaces. Many missions transition through private and public spaces and maybe they just can't figure out how friendly AI would handle these different contexts. If Cayde's with you, does he stop and help you with a public event that just started?

Maybe at some point AI allies weren't considered as necessary because of the presence of drop-in matchmaking with real players. On paper Destiny seems like this really cool, dynamic, unpredictable playground, but what's missing is meaningful context, which I think is the point of your thread.


I can see it in missions. Not public spaces. It's possible that the unit count might start getting maxed in some place spaces such that they have to make a choice between more baddies + encounters or friendlies to help you out. And ultimately, people would much rather fight a hoard of baddies then have sub-par frames helping you out.

Missions on the other hand can be carefully scripted to allow dropped in frames though. I mean, I don't know what the limitations are, but most likely it's that they just don't have time to script in an AI and test all the shit that goes with that. I mean, adding in a friendly AI is a core mechanic that would have to be thoroughly tested.

Yep, it would be a big deal. And missions isn't restrictive enough because of the way Destiny works. Most missions intersect with public spaces. I guess they could make each mission space closed off instances (like Blighted Coven, for example) but I think they make those exceptions rare because it kind of goes against the core design. They've invested a ton of work to drop-in matchmaking to work seamlessly so I bet there is some internal resistance to turning that off.

Avatar

I have noted this before

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, April 27, 2018, 13:44 (2223 days ago) @ Durandal

NPCs in levels, doing stuff and interacting. Why we only got this on the first level in D2, and never again, boggles my mind.

We didn’t even get it on the first level. All the NPC stuff was scripted. They weren’t acting as AI companions responding dynamically.

Avatar

I have noted this before

by cheapLEY @, Friday, April 27, 2018, 16:20 (2223 days ago) @ Cody Miller

NPCs in levels, doing stuff and interacting. Why we only got this on the first level in D2, and never again, boggles my mind.


We didn’t even get it on the first level. All the NPC stuff was scripted. They weren’t acting as AI companions responding dynamically.

It being scripted doesn't mean it's not there, or not real. I think that's fine, we just need a lot more of it. Making good AI for friendly Guardians and having it feel right and satisfying is probably a huge challenge, and those resources are probably better spent elsewhere.

I don't mind stuff like that being scripted, as long as it feels good. I'm not sure that the stuff in the opening level does feel good. You're completely safe from those missiles as long as you are more than like fifteen feet from Zavala. They are all aimed exclusively at this bubble. You can't damage the Cabal that Cayde-6 or Ikora take out. That sort of sucks and makes me keenly aware I'm playing a scripted sequence, but I think it's ultimately fine, as it at least gives the impression that those characters are there with us, fighting, defending the City, and it's better than the alternative of them not being there at all.

We need more of that, though. When we land on Titan, why don't we see Zavala from a distance, fighting on another platform. You could have built Cayde into that boss fight somehow. Maybe do something to momentarily free Cayde and let him fire off a few Golden Gun shots at the boss. Scripted sequences can be good and immersive, and help make the world feel alive. The stuff in the opening level sure did, at least on the first playthrough.

And honestly, I still think they need to give the vendors different routines, make them patrol the Tower. I understand that's inconvenient, but it's not there aren't map markers. Having the Tower be exactly the same with everyone just standing in the exact same spot is perhaps the biggest immersion breaker in the entire game. It makes the entire world feel fake for me.

Avatar

I have noted this before

by Durandal, Sunday, April 29, 2018, 09:13 (2221 days ago) @ Cody Miller

It doesn't hurt to have more scripted encounters. Just seeing npcs in the wild and being able to talk to them is a plus. If all it was was Zevala killing hive outside his starship on titan, or ikora ripping into cabal while you push on, the game works better then just the occasional radio chatter.

Avatar

I have noted this before

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Sunday, April 29, 2018, 09:30 (2221 days ago) @ Durandal

It doesn't hurt to have more scripted encounters. Just seeing npcs in the wild and being able to talk to them is a plus. If all it was was Zevala killing hive outside his starship on titan, or ikora ripping into cabal while you push on, the game works better then just the occasional radio chatter.

I agree. This would have to be limited to private areas, though.

I was thinking more about what I mentioned above: the difficulty of figuring out how a NPC character who is following your fireteam would behave in public spaces that have random activities like public events happening. You could potentially have two different fireteams in the same area with two Zavalas along for the ride. AWKWARD.

Avatar

I have noted this before

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Sunday, April 29, 2018, 10:00 (2221 days ago) @ Kermit

It doesn't hurt to have more scripted encounters. Just seeing npcs in the wild and being able to talk to them is a plus. If all it was was Zevala killing hive outside his starship on titan, or ikora ripping into cabal while you push on, the game works better then just the occasional radio chatter.


I agree. This would have to be limited to private areas, though.

I was thinking more about what I mentioned above: the difficulty of figuring out how a NPC character who is following your fireteam would behave in public spaces that have random activities like public events happening. You could potentially have two different fireteams in the same area with two Zavalas along for the ride. AWKWARD.

This is super easy to fix. Either:

1. Don't match groups with the same NPC together in public spaces.
2. Match them, but have the NPC appear as a normal guardian for the other group.

Avatar

I have noted this before

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, April 30, 2018, 08:15 (2220 days ago) @ Cody Miller

It doesn't hurt to have more scripted encounters. Just seeing npcs in the wild and being able to talk to them is a plus. If all it was was Zevala killing hive outside his starship on titan, or ikora ripping into cabal while you push on, the game works better then just the occasional radio chatter.


I agree. This would have to be limited to private areas, though.

I was thinking more about what I mentioned above: the difficulty of figuring out how a NPC character who is following your fireteam would behave in public spaces that have random activities like public events happening. You could potentially have two different fireteams in the same area with two Zavalas along for the ride. AWKWARD.


This is super easy to fix. Either:

1. Don't match groups with the same NPC together in public spaces.
2. Match them, but have the NPC appear as a normal guardian for the other group.

I doubt that either of these are "super easy"--especially number two.

Another difficult problem is what to do about supers. Programming that behavior based on situations would be challenging, I bet. And if they never use supers, how would it break immersion to have the vanguard be the worst players around? I am coming around to thinking that non-player guardians in the game are unworkable except during scripted events. I still like the idea of using frames, though.

Avatar

Something’s Missing: Playercentrism

by narcogen ⌂ @, Andover, Massachusetts, Saturday, April 28, 2018, 07:27 (2222 days ago) @ Ragashingo

In Bungie’s Halo games, of course the player character (usually the Master Chief, but also the Rookie and Noble 6 and the Arbiter) did a bunch of important things. Ultimately we defeated the Flood and the Covenant among many many other acts of small and large scale. But, in the Halo series, storyline characters also did a lot. For instance:

[snip]


I want the Destiny that was supposed to be “bigger than Halo.”

Destiny IS bigger than Halo, and characters do do things.

The player character in Destiny doesn't do everything because they can't-- there are too many of them.

This complaint is literally about the problem that the entire fictional universe in Destiny doesn't revolve around the player character the way it does in most FPS games.

If anything, the parts of latter D1 and D2 that ring weird to me are the bits where they try and make it sound like the world does revolve around you.

When Holliday says that you're the Guardian that Zavala "won't shut up about"... who is she talking about? Me? Or every other damn Guardian in the Tower?

When Cayde says we've got "the Guardian"... which one does he mean?

Heck, if anything the unit around which Destiny's story should revolve is the fireteam, not "the Guardian".

Avatar

Something’s Missing: Playercentrism

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Sunday, April 29, 2018, 09:22 (2221 days ago) @ narcogen

In Bungie’s Halo games, of course the player character (usually the Master Chief, but also the Rookie and Noble 6 and the Arbiter) did a bunch of important things. Ultimately we defeated the Flood and the Covenant among many many other acts of small and large scale. But, in the Halo series, storyline characters also did a lot. For instance:


[snip]


I want the Destiny that was supposed to be “bigger than Halo.”


Destiny IS bigger than Halo, and characters do do things.

The player character in Destiny doesn't do everything because they can't-- there are too many of them.

This complaint is literally about the problem that the entire fictional universe in Destiny doesn't revolve around the player character the way it does in most FPS games.

If anything, the parts of latter D1 and D2 that ring weird to me are the bits where they try and make it sound like the world does revolve around you.

When Holliday says that you're the Guardian that Zavala "won't shut up about"... who is she talking about? Me? Or every other damn Guardian in the Tower?

When Cayde says we've got "the Guardian"... which one does he mean?

Heck, if anything the unit around which Destiny's story should revolve is the fireteam, not "the Guardian".

I completely agree. And your post prompted another thought. They manage to have different dialogue that reflects your gender or even whether your character experienced D1. Would it be that hard to have the dialogue reflect whether you're playing as a fireteam. That would underscore this unique aspect of Destiny--that you are one of many.

Avatar

Something’s Missing: Playercentrism

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Sunday, April 29, 2018, 09:41 (2221 days ago) @ Kermit

My head-canon had always been that while I am playing all those missions, in reality there were multiple different Guardians running each thread. Until they started using those lines where it is clear my one Guardian was the one doing everything, this small head-canon kept the universe so alive. Now I have to actively go against the actual canon for that and it's a little disappointing.

Back to the forum index
RSS Feed of thread