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Warmind Story Time (spoilers) (Destiny)

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, May 09, 2018, 14:11 (2189 days ago)

I'm not going to necessarily knock Bungie too hard for this. After all, stories in games only have to really be functional to facilitate and enhance play, and Warmind's story was fine in that regard.

But it was still wasn't good.

Because you can't replay the missions, I'm going to have to go from memory here.

I think the biggest problem is that characters are behaving and doing things for no apparent reason. For instance, Zavala shows up and has beef with Anna. He doesn't trust Rasputin. Okay… but why? Where have we ever seen Rasputin do something that would cause Zavala to be nervous? Never? Yeah. So why is he worried? Did he find something out? That would be cool. I mean, this expansion was ostensibly supposed to be about Anna uncovering things… But after all is said and done, I still do not know why Zavala feared Rasputin the way he did.

Maybe, I don't know, you uncover data that proves Rasputin shot down the Traveler to force its hand at defending Earth. Maybe the thought of Rasputin attacking the Traveler makes Zavala nervous. That would at least give him a reason to not want to wake up Rasputin.

Through all this though… did Anna really learn anything about her past? Did we really learn anything at all? What effect did the story have other than to wake Rasputin? I guess we learn that Rasputin was on Mars the whole time, which just retcons the Last Array mission in Destiny.

In fact, the story was barely about Anna and Rasputin. We are tasked with destroying Xol. But we don't know why Xol is on Mars or what it wants. Why is it a threat? What is it trying to accomplish that we don't want it to do? Just get to Rasputin? The threat was vague and not specific.

So we kill Nokris, and Xol appears and sucks us into the deep. Super cool right? But then in the next cutscene we stand up as if nothing happened. What the fuck. Seriously. How did we get out? If we just stand up and get out, then how dangerous is it? How cool would it have been if we has a story mission where we fought our way out of the deep, and in the process fought strange new enemies and learned some valuable insight about the darkness?! Instead we got nothing. What was the consequence of that?

Xol is also introduced in a com message from Zavala (I think). We are TOLD how big and powerful he was instead of shown. Des2ny got Gaul's intro right. We get massacred, all at Gaul's hand, and to top it off he shoves us to what should be our death. We know right there what he wants, and that he's powerful enough to get it. Did any of the threats from Panoptes or Xol feel like that?!

The bite sized DLC format just is not a good fit for story. It's fine for extending the game, but there's just not enough time to really tell anything meaningful. Rasputin, Xol, Anna. 3 characters, over 5 missions. That's 1.66 missions per character. Think that's enough to do them justice?

I'm sure for a lot of people, this is their first introduction to a lot of these characters. Not everybody knows the lore. Which makes that first cutscene with everybody even more confusing. The game does zero to establish and explain relationships and character motivations. Even if you never read Fall of Reach, you still understand Halo. But for those that DO know the lore, everybody is shortchanged. I think Oryx was the biggest success so far, in part because while he had a lore before the Taken King, the Taken King extended it. We got to see what he could do, and we learned about his (and the Hive's) past. It added to things. What did Warmind add to anything? If anything, it took away. Simplified.

Lastly, I think Xol felt… lame. I'm not saying that that bad guy in every destiny expansion should be the end boss in the raid, but it really helped to sell Crota and Oryx as an epic threat when you had to go through the raid to take them down. In a way, it justified their power and the fear of them.

Like I said before I am not disappointed, because sadly I didn't expect much. The story did it's job I guess, and the game is pretty fun. But… with all the resources at their disposal, it would be nice for Bungie to nail the narrative just once. Maybe in the next Taken King.

Warmind Story Time (spoilers)

by HavokBlue, California, Wednesday, May 09, 2018, 19:59 (2189 days ago) @ Cody Miller

When were we told anything about Xol? I went from chatting with Zavala and Ana outside the Rasputin door to... "Alright guardian, we have to stop Xol."

Like... what? I can't explain this story at all and I recently got friends who refused to touch destiny to pick it up. They've enjoyed the base story and keep saying they thought Destiny was bad at storytelling. I'm dreading the point when they wrap up Curse of Osiris and start on Warmind.

I feel like there are whole missions or cutscenes just inexplicably missing from Warmind. Really disappointed in Bungie.

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Warmind Story Time (spoilers)

by cheapLEY @, Wednesday, May 09, 2018, 20:07 (2189 days ago) @ HavokBlue

When were we told anything about Xol? I went from chatting with Zavala and Ana outside the Rasputin door to... "Alright guardian, we have to stop Xol."

Like... what? I can't explain this story at all and I recently got friends who refused to touch destiny to pick it up. They've enjoyed the base story and keep saying they thought Destiny was bad at storytelling. I'm dreading the point when they wrap up Curse of Osiris and start on Warmind.

I feel like there are whole missions or cutscenes just inexplicably missing from Warmind. Really disappointed in Bungie.

Does Ana Bray give you any of that story of Xol? I think you get to choose your Legendary Weapon reward from her right after Zavala shows up, before you go to Earth. If you choose your weapon too quickly it cuts off her dialogue. I don't know what she says at that point, because I was too busy looking at weapons.

Having vendors tell you parts of the story that you can easily miss is pretty poor implementation.

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Warmind Story Time (spoilers)

by breitzen @, Kansas, Thursday, May 10, 2018, 06:34 (2188 days ago) @ cheapLEY

When were we told anything about Xol? I went from chatting with Zavala and Ana outside the Rasputin door to... "Alright guardian, we have to stop Xol."

Like... what? I can't explain this story at all and I recently got friends who refused to touch destiny to pick it up. They've enjoyed the base story and keep saying they thought Destiny was bad at storytelling. I'm dreading the point when they wrap up Curse of Osiris and start on Warmind.

I feel like there are whole missions or cutscenes just inexplicably missing from Warmind. Really disappointed in Bungie.


Does Ana Bray give you any of that story of Xol? I think you get to choose your Legendary Weapon reward from her right after Zavala shows up, before you go to Earth. If you choose your weapon too quickly it cuts off her dialogue. I don't know what she says at that point, because I was too busy looking at weapons.

Having vendors tell you parts of the story that you can easily miss is pretty poor implementation.

Agreed. I even texted Speedracer to double check my game hadn’t glitches and I missed a cutscene.

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Warmind Story Time (spoilers)

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, May 10, 2018, 07:34 (2188 days ago) @ breitzen

Agreed. I even texted Speedracer to double check my game hadn’t glitches and I missed a cutscene.

That's when you know it's bad…

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Warmind Story Time (spoilers)

by breitzen @, Kansas, Thursday, May 10, 2018, 07:45 (2188 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Agreed. I even texted Speedracer to double check my game hadn’t glitched and I missed a cutscene.


That's when you know it's bad…

I think what's most disappointing is that there is a fascinating and interesting story to be told. I'm not going to point fingers because I don't know the dynamics, but there certainly seems to be this feeling of "narrative is secondary" when it shouldn't be. We get these very complex and intriguing setups and finales, but all the story in the middle is lost due to the "choose your own adventure" nature of Destiny. I think this expansion needed two more missions and the cutscenes, to adequately flesh out everyone.

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True episodic . . .

by cheapLEY @, Thursday, May 10, 2018, 12:31 (2188 days ago) @ breitzen

Why don’t they switch to a truly episodic structure? Instead of trying to shoehorn these huge epic adventures into the tiny expansions, tell the same story across multiple expansions.

Warmind provides a great example. The first DLC could have been going to Mars, investigating what the Cabal are doing, delving into Clovis Bray, discovering Rasputin, and finished with hints of Xol. Expansion II could have then been discovering Xol and investigating the Hive, maybe bring Rasputin back online to drive Xol away, temporarily. The Comet expansion would then be all about battling the Hive and Xol, maybe Savathun? Or even have Expansion II be the end.

The point is that these stories need to breath. Destiny is supposed to be a live game, they need to let it be one. I don’t need a story to be introduced and wrapped up in five missions. As long as it has a sort of natural stopping point, I can wait for four months for the next expansion to continue the story.

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True episodic . . .

by Speedracer513 @, Dallas, Texas, Thursday, May 10, 2018, 12:52 (2188 days ago) @ cheapLEY

The point is that these stories need to breath. Destiny is supposed to be a live game, they need to let it be one. I don’t need a story to be introduced and wrapped up in five missions. As long as it has a sort of natural stopping point, I can wait for four months for the next expansion to continue the story.

THIS!!!

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True episodic . . .

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Thursday, May 10, 2018, 14:05 (2188 days ago) @ Speedracer513

Destiny has done so from time to time. Both Crota and Oryx were teased in missions and other places (like Tower ambient dialogue) before they became focus villains. The Red Legion's attack was also hinted at a bit with the Outbound Signal mission in The Taken King where the Cabal Emperor was signaled.

Rasputin, too, would count as a longer term issues as he is first mentioned in the audio file retrieved in the crashed Jumpship in Destiny 1's very first mission. If anything, Rasputin has had the longest setup what with mentions all across D1. Going into one of his vaults starting in Dark Below. He hadsignificant mentions in Rise of Iron. And now, finally, we've "met" him in Warmind.

Further, Rasputin was not treated as a monster of the week. Instead, and if anything, he has been now properly set up as a future villain (or possibly a future solution) that will become even more important in Destiny's future.

I'd love for these setups to be even better than they are. Give us more cutscenes. Give us more out of game lore or bungie.net comics and lore story posts if you must, Bungie. But, it's not entirely fair to say Destiny hasn't had ongoing story progression.

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True episodic . . .

by cheapLEY @, Thursday, May 10, 2018, 14:31 (2188 days ago) @ Ragashingo

You know that’s not what I mean.

Whether Rasputin has been hinted at or not before isn’t really relevant to my point. Both Curse of Osiris and Warmind tell self-contained stories. They both suffer because the scope of the stories and scope of the expansions don’t match.

I think Bungie could have easily picked one of those stories and stretched it over two expansions to actually have sufficient time to actually tell the story, instead of trying to cram it.

The issue then becomes a matter of content. The internet would lose its fucking mind if an expansion cane out now without a new Destination. So now they would have to tell the story in such a way as to span an extra Destination. I suppose they could do a Rise of Iron and add another area to the new Destination to the first expansion, but I don’t imagine the internet would react very well to that, either.

The spot Bungie is in is an incredibly challenging one to navigate. They can’t make everyone happy. I do want it to be known that I’m pretty pleased with the story in Warmind. We got lots of good lore, with new implications and tie-ins to old things. I think it’s well executed for the scope of what they had to work with. And I think this is probably just what story-telling in Destiny is. I don’t begrudge that, and as long as we keeping getting stuff of ar least this caliber, I’ll be content. That can all be true at the same time as me still wishing it was better, though. And I wish they would tailor the scope of the stories they’re telling to the scope of the expansions better.

Warmind, for example would be just as good without Xol. Just hints of him. We didn’t need to see or fight him, and I don’t think the story would have suffered. Hearing about him and then killing him (even if he’s maybe not really dead), within the span of two or three missions doesn’t feel great, though. They could have had the story be about discovering and waking Rasputin, while only hinting at “what are the Hive doing here?” and it would have been satisfying and not felt like too big of a story smashed into too small of a box.

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Warmind Story Time (spoilers)

by slycrel ⌂, Friday, May 11, 2018, 21:17 (2187 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I both liked the expansion content more than expected, and was as disappointed as I expected in other ways. Here are some of my thoughts, in relatively random order, and probably doesn't cover everything... but it's a good start.

On the positive side:
- The new mars is a great mix of the old mars (clovis bray type things with cabal) and the moon (hive infested tunnels) with a sprinkling of the old earth rasputin areas near his bunker there, both inside and out. Much MUCH more interesting and explorable than mercury. It's obvious this is what they were going for and I think they largely succeeded. Level design win.
- While I'm mentioning levels, fantastic job on the ice and the glass in the rasputin areas. Also loved the server room area, familiar and new all at once.
- I like that the patrol area is key to the events and largely seamless. I really love picking up an adventure with no loading screen and seamless gameplay into potentially custom "public but only me really" areas.
- The new valkyrie weapon is fun and feels appropriately limited in scope and power.
- I enjoyed the subtle nod to "the magic of orbital bombardment" by rasputin in the story mission.
- Also enjoyed the "not quite the same" fragment of the traveler, and the hints at things to come with that. (Though, depending on perspective this might be a plot hole rather than foreshadowing. heh)
- I have yet to beat the self-starter public event. I like how it's paced, some of the new mechanics, and having something to look forward to ongoing. It's paced well for groups of lower light players, and seems to be geared towards community building.
- Seems like regular public events and self-started events are appropriately not layered over each other. I think this is a good thing.
- I like the new public event with the hive, even if it's very similar to the portal event on titan. Well placed and hints at depth that may or may not be there.
- I like the audio and visual cues with the new frequency "chests".
- Levelling was largely seamless to the experience of the campaign.
- bright engrams pacing seems pretty good.
- I'm a little confused at the new section of the store, but I like how it shows a preview of what I could possibly get. (Unclear if I will get chances at this or got my first taste for free and it's strictly pay to play from now on...?)
- I got the popcorn emote from my first engram, I finally have a food emote! ;)
- I thought the story (mostly) was better at setting up the gameplay than the last expansion.
- I have yet to run the new strike, looking forward to that! Also ps4, wooo! =)
- Sparrow in the patrol area! Yay!
- It was fun to see semi-destructible buildings in the Xol fight. I hope we see terrain morphing in a limited, and thus more impactful, way as we go forward.

Things that are so/so or not so good:
(Bungie, if you're reading, feel free to take this as UX and "expectation" constructive criticism)
- Shaders continue to be a headache to manage.
- I was surprisingly out of glimmer just after levelling, probably due to using a few shaders to "get rid of them".
- I was confused at the term "valkyrie" in the story, I thought it was a ship, then a NPC of some sort, then finally figured it out as I was using it.
- Xol came out of nowhere. Felt like 2 expansions smashed into one, both cut short.
- As has been mentioned, "there is no light here" and "the deeps" Xol mentioned felt about the same as Xol suddenly being introduced -- a break in the story. Almost like different teams did these pieces with little coordination around how they lined up.
- artificial light caps. This is really just D2 more of the same. Once I get my basic engrams earned for the week I can either do things I don't care for or... nothing particularly meaningful until next reset.
- Getting all 45 frequencies x4 will be a huge timesink that the content can't sustain, which is unfortunate. I've enjoyed the 5 of these I've found so far, but at this pace there is no way I'll make it halfway, let alone to the end.
- Also, if I hadn't been paying attention, it was easy to miss how to combine materials to get the frequencies.
- I have a blue microchip thing, limit 3, in my inventory that has to do with mars, but I have no idea what it is or why I need it.
- I have a love for AI, inspired in part by Bungie's Marathon series. We've fallen a long way since coining terms like 'Rampancy' in bungie's AI storytelling. This might be my biggest disappointment -- seems like a waste of some great storytelling material that's been building since the beginning. Actually, just like osiris, so maybe this is "wrapping up" the old stuff, with a bridge to the new "what's next".
- I wanted to interact with rasputin. Instead I did what Ana told me to and didn't really meet rasputin, just got a teaser trailer for something (friend and foe both probably) in the future. Interaction with rasputin seems to be limited to "friend of a friend" status, with even the valkyrie weapons being called in on her behalf.
- I was really disappointed that failsafe had no impact on the warmind expansion. Seems like a natural crossover point... trapped AIs stranded on a planet from the same age in history.
- I had hoped for more than 3 characters with dialogue (Ana, Zavala, Ghost... and I guess Rasputin is #4)
- I tried my first heroic adventure today. I'm at LL 346, recommended LL is 350, I kept getting 2-3 shotted by groups of red enemies and had to call it quits. These are likely not meant to be soloed except at the highest light levels... but I really don't have much incentive to bring along friends to these either.
- I've not particularly noticed weapon changes in PvE, most weapons seem not as good (much less powerful) than my current go-to weapons. I expected more. (i.e. Someday I hope to use scout rifles again, sadly they just can't compete with other weapon types)
- Patrol events seem pretty canned. I wish the "scan the area" patrols were more diverse, even if it were the locations you go to and nothing else... There is little difference between those and the "ghost scan" patrols, other than "look at a thing" vs "look at a vista".
- Tokens doing double-duty with legendary marks seems a little heavy. They could simplify a bit here.
- I loved that most areas in the original destiny looped, and that there was a largely successful attempt to do so on the new mars. I get that we have fast travel now... I don't love the "long tunnel of cool stuff that dead ends with a player teleport". Makes for less useful areas. I know this isn't always possible, but a little creativity would go a long way. Lost sectors usually acknowledge this and they are mostly great there... This is probably just a resource limitation. D1 sometimes felt this way, particularly on mars; you could go to most all of the places, but many of them didn't have patrol beacons or meaningful content loops short of leaving to do something else. I'm thinking of the underground train station on mars, the sepkis prime area on earth, the endless steps on venus. These seem like they could be much more reusable than they turned out to be, I think because of the lack of looping layout combined with the lack of patrol beacons. I think there was an early nod to this concept past the library on venus, with a courtyard that had patrol beacons (a natural point of fast travel in D2 terms).

Overall I liked it more than I expected, which was a positive. It's better in many ways than the last expansion. Other than my weapon quest (I'm on step 3 of however many) I think I'm largely done with the single player content, over the space of 3-4 hours, with an extra hour or 2 of patrol space exploration. The expansion does feel rushed (or cut) in a few places. Overall this is good content that adds to the D2 ecosystem in a good way. I continue to be disappointed that new expansions feel like islands rather than a greater piece of the whole, with individual ecosystems that don't tie together. Some of this is by necessity, but there's room for improvement here. TTK still shines as far as content expansions for many reasons.


p.s. sorry about the invite ignore the other day Cody, I was in the middle of an intense fight then forgot. :/

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Warmind Story Time (spoilers)

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, May 11, 2018, 22:27 (2187 days ago) @ slycrel

It happens.

But guess what? The frequency you get is random, and it can be one you’ve gotten before! Have one left? Your chances of getting the last one are slim.

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Warmind Story Time (spoilers)

by cheapLEY @, Saturday, May 12, 2018, 05:34 (2186 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I can’t confirm, but the rumor on reddit is that the key you craft will always be for a location you’re not currently occupying. So you can increase your chances by going to a location where you know you’ve collected them all before you craft the key.

Not a real solution, and I honestly don’t even know if it’s true, but it could help.

Is there even a reason to get them all? I don’t think specific loot is tied to any particular one—they’re just random pulls at that loot table. I guess I could be wrong about that.

Also: if you don’t yet have the quest step to open 15 of them, don’t open any. It doesn’t count ones you’ve already opened. Just stockpile key fragments until you get that step.

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