Paging story experts *SP* (Destiny)

by Oholiab @, Sunday, September 09, 2018, 23:18 (2058 days ago)

I just finished the story tonight, and I need some help understanding what just happened. I have not unlocked the Dreaming City, so maybe some of this will become more clear.

I get that Mara was not physically present, but her... memory... was goading on Uldren. But was it really Mara?

What was the thing at the end? Who is Riven?

What were Uldren’s crimes against the Awoken that put him in the prison and got Petra so fired up?

How is someone supposed to know these answers? I ask this seriously: is there something I’m missing (missed) that was supposed to fill in these gaps? Admittedly, I didn’t rush through the story, and lots of life happens between sessions, preventing my brain from retaining plot points from one story moment to the next.

Thanks!

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Paging story experts *SP*

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Monday, September 10, 2018, 00:19 (2058 days ago) @ Oholiab

I just finished the story tonight, and I need some help understanding what just happened. I have not unlocked the Dreaming City, so maybe some of this will become more clear.

I think it's important to understand that not all the answers are handed to us right upon finishing the story. Even those of us who have explored The Dreaming City have not uncovered some major story points. My guess is that the Raid will answer some questions, but that some things will be progressively revealed via the ongoing changes that will happen to The Dreaming City over the next few weeks.

There's also a lot of hidden items like Dead Ghosts or crystal fragments all over the place. Apparently some are even hidden in pre-Forsaken destinations. And there is something on the order of 30,000+ words worth of stories that shipped as part of Forsaken's lore. Topics like the history of the Awoken, Prince Uldren's motives, and the purpose of The Dreaming City get a whole lot of detail through these stories that you can uncover piece by piece.

Finally, the Raid and possibly events after the Raid my change our understanding of things, so some of these answers are temporary pending future revelations.

I get that Mara was not physically present, but her... memory... was goading on Uldren. But was it really Mara?

No. The true answer remains to be seen, but my current informed best guess is that Prince Uldren was being manipulated by an Ahamkara named Riven that seems to be trapped in The Dreaming City. But there are several layers there to further untangle there.

What was the thing at the end? Who is Riven?

I'm not completely sure what that thing was. I thought I knew what was coming in that mission, but I had no knowledge of that final boss fight! It seems likely it was some sort of monster acting on behalf of Riven since it was named "Voice of Riven" just as we've seen various Hive that represent Savathun in D2. (I think that if we learned anything from that fight, it's that the Raid might be seriously weird!)


What were Uldren’s crimes against the Awoken that put him in the prison and got Petra so fired up?

This one is in the stories you can piece together by collecting hidden items and completing activities and so on. The basics of it seem to be that Uldren went mad at the loss of his sister and used the Eliksni House of Kings to attack his own people out of rage of Petra working with the Guardians to secure the Reef after Oryx was defeated. (But again, there are multiple layers with regard to Uldren and his actions.)


How is someone supposed to know these answers? I ask this seriously: is there something I’m missing (missed) that was supposed to fill in these gaps? Admittedly, I didn’t rush through the story, and lots of life happens between sessions, preventing my brain from retaining plot points from one story moment to the next.

Go dig around in the Lore section of your Triumphs screen. There may not be a ton unlocked (mine is still a whole lot of "Unknown"s and "??????"s) but there is probably something interesting for you to read. Essentially, Bungie is treating Lore as something to be uncovered and earned in much the same way they are treating Crucible Triumphs or Achievements. We don't get all the Lore at once and some of it we'll probably have to seek out or work for.

I think it should be said, that even though the main story leaves some questions and mystery A) It didn't lie to us. Like where Uldren says he did everything for his sister, he was telling the truth... from his own point of view. B) A lot of the stuff teased by the main story is addressed directly in the lore. This isn't a time where things are teased and then just dropped or forgotten about. At least not so far...


Thanks!

You're asking good questions. For now, rest assured that for many of them there are good, solid, detailed answers. :)

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+1

by breitzen @, Kansas, Monday, September 10, 2018, 07:03 (2058 days ago) @ Ragashingo

Also, if you don't have the desire to wait it out and collect/read the lore at your own pace. Go over to www.ishtar-collective.net and read away. There is really a lot of very cool and interesting things happening!

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Paging story experts *SP*

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Monday, September 10, 2018, 07:44 (2058 days ago) @ Ragashingo

You're asking good questions. For now, rest assured that for many of them there are good, solid, detailed answers. :)

On a whole I like that some of these things are teased and that we don't get everything explained to us. However, there are some things that I feel should be explained, one of the biggest ones was why Uldren was in prison and why he felt compelled to shoot one of the vanguard.

Coming in to forsaken I knew basically 4 things.

1. Uldren had lost his sister
2. Uldren was now basically leader of the Awoken by blood
3. The Awoken generally don't like Guardians (why?)
4. Uldren is in prison!?

It's mentioned in the campaign that Uldren attacked his own people, but it's never really explained whether that was before or after he was imprisoned, I assumed it was afterwards. Which still didn't explain why he was imprisoned.

Explaining why Uldren is imprisoned and who is leading the Awoken are two VERY important things I feel you should know before leading up to the start of forsaken...

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Paging story experts *SP*

by Blackt1g3r @, Login is from an untrusted domain in MN, Monday, September 10, 2018, 07:47 (2058 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

I'm pretty sure I heard a line from Petra about how Uldren had gone mad and she had to put him in the Prison of Elders. I think it was just an ambient line while standing nearby though. I wish that had been more directly explained.

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Paging story experts *SP*

by Harmanimus @, Monday, September 10, 2018, 08:28 (2058 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

Not having dug into anything but stuff heard/exposed to while play: Uldren was put in the prison because he started conflict with the Reefborn Awoken prior to the events of Forsaken and Petra has been acting Regent for. Like. Ever now. Or something.

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Paging story experts *SP*

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Monday, September 10, 2018, 09:17 (2058 days ago) @ Harmanimus

Not having dug into anything but stuff heard/exposed to while play: Uldren was put in the prison because he started conflict with the Reefborn Awoken prior to the events of Forsaken and Petra has been acting Regent for. Like. Ever now. Or something.

So she had the power to imprison the Prince (King?) of the Awoken?

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Paging story experts *SP*

by breitzen @, Kansas, Monday, September 10, 2018, 09:52 (2058 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

Not having dug into anything but stuff heard/exposed to while play: Uldren was put in the prison because he started conflict with the Reefborn Awoken prior to the events of Forsaken and Petra has been acting Regent for. Like. Ever now. Or something.


So she had the power to imprison the Prince (King?) of the Awoken?

Much of the Lore cards on the Awoken talk about how much Mara distrusts Uldren. If he allies himself with Fallen, you bet Petra's going to jail him up.

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A little on why Uldren went mad. *Spoilers*

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Monday, September 10, 2018, 12:53 (2058 days ago) @ breitzen
edited by Ragashingo, Monday, September 10, 2018, 13:07

Not having dug into anything but stuff heard/exposed to while play: Uldren was put in the prison because he started conflict with the Reefborn Awoken prior to the events of Forsaken and Petra has been acting Regent for. Like. Ever now. Or something.


So she had the power to imprison the Prince (King?) of the Awoken?


Much of the Lore cards on the Awoken talk about how much Mara distrusts Uldren. If he allies himself with Fallen, you bet Petra's going to jail him up.

This is a very big question. Here is the very beginning of an answer:

  • When the Awoken returned to our solar system (yes, returned. From where? From when? That's another question with its own full blown answer) they found the Earth in ruins and the Traveler hovering low over one single city in the making. Many of the 40,000ish Awoken wanted to immediately head to earth and help.
  • However, Mara wisely sent Uldren on a scouting mission across the system. He found Fallen on Earth and beyond. They also detected the Cabal on Mars and maybe even the Vex. Mara decided they needed to build their numbers and their forces before revealing themselves to a dangerous, hostile solar system.
  • In order to do that, the Awoken secretly took up residence in our asteroid belt near the Golden Age wrecks near Vesta, Ceres, etc. They stated building factories and habitats and began growing their numbers.
  • Unfortunately, a sizable group of Awoken still wanted to go help earth. Things became tense and that group broke away. Mara was forced to let them go or risk a full riot. That group's "betrayal" did indeed begin helping the earth with their superior techonolgy and resources... but they also led the Fallen back to the reef. Which lead to the deaths of many Awoken. That's one of the reason Uldren is no fan of the Earth.
  • Later-ish, the Awoken started encountering Guardians. Probably Human and Exo Guardians at first, but eventually Awoken Guardians! Meaning, some of those Awoken that went to help earth were killed and then found by Ghosts. Mara isn't a fan, but Uldren sees this as a travesty! His focus is on figuring out how to kill Guardians. Later as the City becomes established Uldren covertly and sometimes overly opposes Guardians... sometimes killing them a few times in a row... sometimes doing mean things like moving or burying their Patrol Beacons to make them harder to access, etc.
  • Uldren's hatred of Guardians and even his own people (such as Petra) intensifies and grows out of control when his sister sacrifices herself for earth in the battle against Oryx.
  • After that, Uldren takes over the Eliksni House of Kings and also starts being influenced by *something* that poses as his sister, as seen in game.
  • Uldren leads the House of Kings in attacks upon the Reef thinking Petra a fool for allowing Guardians to help bring order back after the death of Mara Sov. He allows his hatred of Guardians to translate to Petra and even the rest of his people. For those attacks, Petra and Cayde-6 bring Uldren in and lock him in the Prison of Elders... Ya'll know a lot of what happens next...


But once again, I cannot emphasize this enough: There are layers upon layers upon layers bound up in those few bullet points. Including everything from the Traveler's battle with the Darkness, to the creation of the Scorn, to what happened to Variks are all tied up in Uldren's story. It's some of the best writing in all of Destiny, surpassing or equaling even things like the story of The Last Word or the story of the Hive as told in the Book of Sorrows. My abbreviated answers doesn't do all of this justice...

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A little on why Uldren went mad. *Spoilers*

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Monday, September 10, 2018, 13:00 (2058 days ago) @ Ragashingo
edited by MacAddictXIV, Monday, September 10, 2018, 13:10

Not having dug into anything but stuff heard/exposed to while play: Uldren was put in the prison because he started conflict with the Reefborn Awoken prior to the events of Forsaken and Petra has been acting Regent for. Like. Ever now. Or something.


So she had the power to imprison the Prince (King?) of the Awoken?


Much of the Lore cards on the Awoken talk about how much Mara distrusts Uldren. If he allies himself with Fallen, you bet Petra's going to jail him up.


This is a very big question. Here is the very beginning of an answer:

  • When the Awoken returned to our solar system (yes, returned. From where? From when? That's another question with its own full blown answer) they found the Earth in ruins and the Traveler hovering low over one single city in the making. Many of the 40,000ish Awoken wanted to immediately head to earth and help.
  • However, Mara wisely sent Uldren on a scouting mission across the system. He found Fallen on Earth and beyond. They also detected the Cabal on Mars and maybe even the Vex. Mara wisely decided they needed to build their numbers and their forces before revealing themselves to a dangerous, hostile solar system.
  • In order to do that, the Awoken secretly took up residence in our asteroid belt near the Golden Age wrecks near Vesta, Ceres, etc. They stated building factories and habitats and began growing their numbers.
  • Unfortunately, a sizable group of Awoken still wanted to go help earth. Things became tense and that group broke away. Mara was forced to let them go or risk a full riot. That group's "betrayal" did indeed begin helping the earth with their superior techonolgy and resources... but they also led the Fallen back to the reef. Which lead to the deaths of many Awoken. That's one of the reason Uldren is no fan of the Earth.
  • Later-ish, the Awoken started encountering Guardians. Probably Human and Exo Guardians at first, but eventually Awoken Guardians! Meaning, some of those Awoken that went to help earth were killed and then found by Ghosts. Mara isn't a fan, but Uldren sees this as a travesty! His focus is on figuring out how to kill Guardians. Later as the City becomes established Uldren covertly and sometimes overly opposes Guardians... sometimes killing them a few times in a row... sometimes doing mean things like moving or burying their Patrol Beacons to make them harder to access, etc.
  • Uldren's hatred of Guardians and even his own people (such as Petra) intensifies and grows out of control when his sister sacrifices herself for earth in the battle against Oryx.
  • After that, Uldren takes over the Eliksni House of Kings and also starts being influenced by *something* that poses as his sister, as seen in game.
  • Uldren leads the House of Kings in attacks upon the Reef thinking Petra a fool for allowing Guardians to help bring order back after the death of Mara Sov. He allows his hatred of Guardians to translate to Petra and even the rest of his people. For those attacks, Petra and Cayde-6 bring Uldren in and lock him in the Prison of Elders... Ya'll know a lot of what happens next...


But once again, I cannot emphasize this enough: There are layers upon layers upon layers bound up in those few bullet points. Including everything from the Traveler's battle with the Darkness, to the creation of the Scorn, to what happened to Variks are all tied up in Uldren's story. It's some of the best writing in all of Destiny, surpassing or equaling even things like the story of The Last Word or the story of the Hive as told in the Book of Sorrows. My abbreviated answers doesn't do all of this justice...

That is very well put! At least some of those bullet points should have been a cutscene narrative prior to telling us that Uldren was jailed. Kind of like a "last time on" summary. Yeah, it seems cheesy, but sometimes you need stuff like that.

You should contract with Bungie.

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Great summary. Thanks for this.

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, September 10, 2018, 13:06 (2058 days ago) @ Ragashingo

- No text -

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A little on why Uldren went mad. *Spoilers*

by Harmanimus @, Monday, September 10, 2018, 13:45 (2058 days ago) @ Ragashingo

I would also like to point out (and I haven’t found something with better context than your summary) that some folk I had spoken to seemed to miss.

The conflict Uldren has brought against Petra is ended with his death by her hand and not that of the Guardian. While barely a nod to it in full, it’s enough to frame the lead into The Dreaming City just a little differently

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A little on why Uldren went mad. *Spoilers*

by breitzen @, Kansas, Monday, September 10, 2018, 14:24 (2057 days ago) @ Harmanimus

I would also like to point out (and I haven’t found something with better context than your summary) that some folk I had spoken to seemed to miss.

The conflict Uldren has brought against Petra is ended with his death by her hand and not that of the Guardian. While barely a nod to it in full, it’s enough to frame the lead into The Dreaming City just a little differently

I think its intended to be ambiguous. I felt like I heard both the Ace of Spades and Vestian Dynasty fire. Whereas two other people I talked with only heard the Ace of Spades.

The hard cut to black and blending of audio let's hear what you want and means you can interpret the ending the way you want. For instance, I feel like both Petra and I shot at the same time.

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A little on why Uldren went mad. *Spoilers*

by Harmanimus @, Monday, September 10, 2018, 14:28 (2057 days ago) @ breitzen

It’s the nod in the dialogue with Petra when she gives you Vestian Dynasty that is where I feel the inplication is hardest. Though I do believe that the cut to black was so people can headcanon it. I just like the implications it has for the relationship Petra maintained with Cayde and the actual scene was made ambiguous so that you can place more of your Guardian into it.

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A little on why Uldren went mad. *Spoilers*

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, September 10, 2018, 16:33 (2057 days ago) @ Harmanimus

It’s the nod in the dialogue with Petra when she gives you Vestian Dynasty that is where I feel the inplication is hardest. Though I do believe that the cut to black was so people can headcanon it. I just like the implications it has for the relationship Petra maintained with Cayde and the actual scene was made ambiguous so that you can place more of your Guardian into it.

Headcanon is a verb? (I'm still getting used to it being a word.)

So remind me, what did Petra say when she gave us the vestian?

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A little on why Uldren went mad. *Spoilers*

by Harmanimus @, Monday, September 10, 2018, 16:38 (2057 days ago) @ Kermit

I don’t have a specific quote rn, and it was more of a vague and the weapon used for you-know-what.

It is a little throw away but the tone screamed I put a bullet in him and don’t really wanna talk about it too loud.

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I understood the same from the dialogue there too.

by slycrel ⌂, Tuesday, September 11, 2018, 11:33 (2057 days ago) @ Harmanimus

That Petra had used the vestian dynasty to kill uldren. Seemed pretty clear.

+1... I appreciated the ambiguity

by Oholiab @, Monday, September 10, 2018, 14:28 (2057 days ago) @ breitzen

- No text -

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Is it really that ambigious?

by cheapLEY @, Monday, September 10, 2018, 17:22 (2057 days ago) @ Oholiab

I mean sure, it technically is, because of the cut and we don't see anything.

But our Guardian lowers their gun at one point, then right before the gun raises it and points it at Uldren again. That seems pretty clear to me.

My Guardian certainly pulled the trigger. ;)

Is it really that ambigious?

by EffortlessFury @, Tuesday, September 11, 2018, 03:54 (2057 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I mean sure, it technically is, because of the cut and we don't see anything.

But our Guardian lowers their gun at one point, then right before the gun raises it and points it at Uldren again. That seems pretty clear to me.

My Guardian certainly pulled the trigger. ;)

I thought it was implied Petra did it via Venstian Dynasty.

Is it really that ambigious?

by Claude Errera @, Tuesday, September 11, 2018, 09:31 (2057 days ago) @ EffortlessFury

I mean sure, it technically is, because of the cut and we don't see anything.

But our Guardian lowers their gun at one point, then right before the gun raises it and points it at Uldren again. That seems pretty clear to me.

My Guardian certainly pulled the trigger. ;)


I thought it was implied Petra did it via Venstian Dynasty.

And I thought it was implied that both guns fired.

Apparently, they did a pretty good job of leaving it ambiguous. :)

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Is it really that ambigious?

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Tuesday, September 11, 2018, 11:46 (2057 days ago) @ Claude Errera

I mean sure, it technically is, because of the cut and we don't see anything.

But our Guardian lowers their gun at one point, then right before the gun raises it and points it at Uldren again. That seems pretty clear to me.

My Guardian certainly pulled the trigger. ;)


I thought it was implied Petra did it via Venstian Dynasty.


And I thought it was implied that both guns fired.

Apparently, they did a pretty good job of leaving it ambiguous. :)


You can definitely hear the Vestian crack. Sammy made the joke that her guardian and Petra each shot one of his kneecaps, and then Petra killed him (because the dialogue all but spells it out for you that she killed him for good).

It reminded me of that scene in Fable 2, where your character has a gun trained on the villain at the end of the game, but if you take too long to shoot because you're weighing the morality of the situation, one of the NPCs casually shoots him mid sentence and quips.
Petra couldn't trust you to go through with it, so she did it herself. She does love getting her hands dirty.

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Is it really that ambigious?

by Blackt1g3r @, Login is from an untrusted domain in MN, Tuesday, September 11, 2018, 11:47 (2057 days ago) @ Claude Errera

I mean sure, it technically is, because of the cut and we don't see anything.

But our Guardian lowers their gun at one point, then right before the gun raises it and points it at Uldren again. That seems pretty clear to me.

My Guardian certainly pulled the trigger. ;)


I thought it was implied Petra did it via Venstian Dynasty.


And I thought it was implied that both guns fired.

Apparently, they did a pretty good job of leaving it ambiguous. :)

Technically we haven’t even seen Uldren’s body right? So he might not actually be dead. Petra/our guardian might be lying to everyone. ;)

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Is it really that ambigious?

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Tuesday, September 11, 2018, 11:52 (2057 days ago) @ Claude Errera

I mean sure, it technically is, because of the cut and we don't see anything.

But our Guardian lowers their gun at one point, then right before the gun raises it and points it at Uldren again. That seems pretty clear to me.

My Guardian certainly pulled the trigger. ;)


I thought it was implied Petra did it via Venstian Dynasty.


And I thought it was implied that both guns fired.

Apparently, they did a pretty good job of leaving it ambiguous. :)

Which is for the best, at least to the extent that it would have gone a way towards answering Uldren's question about our goodness.

I realize that one of the conventions of this western-themed expansion is rugged justice, but Uldren was obviously manipulated, and I like that idea that my guardian might have shown mercy at the last.

Speaking of western conventions, one of my favorite moments in the campaign was when the barons show up in silhouette along the ridge. Classic.

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Is it really that ambigious?

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Tuesday, September 11, 2018, 12:03 (2057 days ago) @ Kermit

I mean sure, it technically is, because of the cut and we don't see anything.

But our Guardian lowers their gun at one point, then right before the gun raises it and points it at Uldren again. That seems pretty clear to me.

My Guardian certainly pulled the trigger. ;)


I thought it was implied Petra did it via Venstian Dynasty.


And I thought it was implied that both guns fired.

Apparently, they did a pretty good job of leaving it ambiguous. :)


Which is for the best, at least to the extent that it would have gone a way towards answering Uldren's question about our goodness.

The key to a good armor-piercing question is the reply, or lack thereof. By making it "ambiguous", they cheapen the question. What happened after should have been player choice, not a cut to black if the end result is the same.

Plenty of other games have nailed the question and answer to this scenario.


I realize that one of the conventions of this western-themed expansion is rugged justice, but Uldren was obviously manipulated, and I like that idea that my guardian might have shown mercy at the last.

I mean. He was still a spiteful antagonist long before the Beholder got his phone number, and he clearly showed no remorse after he was "cured". Not a redeemable character. Maybe with better writing in-game.

Speaking of western conventions, one of my favorite moments in the campaign was when the barons show up in silhouette along the ridge. Classic.

Sadly, Neither Sammy nor I caught that. Wasn't until I ran my second character that I noticed it. Very nice, easily-missable moment.

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Is it really that ambigious?

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Tuesday, September 11, 2018, 12:24 (2057 days ago) @ Korny

I mean sure, it technically is, because of the cut and we don't see anything.

But our Guardian lowers their gun at one point, then right before the gun raises it and points it at Uldren again. That seems pretty clear to me.

My Guardian certainly pulled the trigger. ;)


I thought it was implied Petra did it via Venstian Dynasty.


And I thought it was implied that both guns fired.

Apparently, they did a pretty good job of leaving it ambiguous. :)


Which is for the best, at least to the extent that it would have gone a way towards answering Uldren's question about our goodness.


The key to a good armor-piercing question is the reply, or lack thereof. By making it "ambiguous", they cheapen the question. What happened after should have been player choice, not a cut to black if the end result is the same.

I disagree that it cheapens the question, but I think the "we're evil zombies" idea can and probably will crop up later, and I'd rather have the clarifying moment (player choice or not) towards the end of the series.

Plenty of other games have nailed the question and answer to this scenario.

Again, I like how it was handled at this point in the series.


I realize that one of the conventions of this western-themed expansion is rugged justice, but Uldren was obviously manipulated, and I like that idea that my guardian might have shown mercy at the last.


I mean. He was still a spiteful antagonist long before the Beholder got his phone number, and he clearly showed no remorse after he was "cured". Not a redeemable character. Maybe with better writing in-game.

Yeah, sure, the hatred of guardians is strong in this one. Should we become like those who hate us?

Speaking of western conventions, one of my favorite moments in the campaign was when the barons show up in silhouette along the ridge. Classic.


Sadly, Neither Sammy nor I caught that. Wasn't until I ran my second character that I noticed it. Very nice, easily-missable moment.

Yeah. I like Gears instead of loving it, but one of its innovations was giving us a hud indicator at certain moments and a quick way to automatically direct the camera to something worth seeing in game. It's a nice solution.

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Is it really that ambigious?

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Tuesday, September 11, 2018, 13:04 (2057 days ago) @ Kermit

I disagree that it cheapens the question, but I think the "we're evil zombies" idea can and probably will crop up later, and I'd rather have the clarifying moment (player choice or not) towards the end of the series.

I have a theory that it will be the Traveler who is shown to be less-than benevolent. Not evil, but selfish, and the Ghosts and Guardians will force its hand in favor of Humanity/Eliksni, even if it takes a few Warsats trained on him to keep him form escaping the Darkness once more.

Plenty of other games have nailed the question and answer to this scenario.

Again, I like how it was handled at this point in the series.

It's weird that they ask this question in such a rushed way, though. Sure, the Mad Bomber posits the question as we're crossing off the list, and Ghost reassures us about it, but very little about it has any impact on our motivations throughout (more so since some of the Barons are brought back to life after the game anyway).

I would totally kill for a moment like the end of Metal Gear Solid 3, though, were we come to the realization that nothing was as it seemed, and it hits you that you're just one pawn in a bigger game, down to having no choice but to pull the trigger to continue the game.

I mean. He was still a spiteful antagonist long before the Beholder got his phone number, and he clearly showed no remorse after he was "cured". Not a redeemable character. Maybe with better writing in-game.


Yeah, sure, the hatred of guardians is strong in this one. Should we become like those who hate us?

I love the way Warframe handled this question throughout the entirety of the "War Within" quest. Your character, a Tenno, was feared and hated, and brought about Warframe's version of The Collapse. You are directly responsible for the extinction of an entire civilization... But you did it for love. The same motivation as the game's main antagonist. You were no better; worse, in fact, because while he betrayed his own people, you slaughtered them... but you don't remember any of it.

So at six or seven different points during the quest, you are given an opportunity to remember something, or remember how you felt about it. Depending on your choices, your character develops a Day/Night/Balanced morality.
Were they right about you? Or were you not what they made you seem? Or are you a completely different person than the one you were before?
All of these choices are presented to you, so you can decide who your character is.

Personally. I would have had my character nod at Petra, and walk off. She earned her revenge (since she actually cared about Cayde and her people), and I completed my mission of hunting down Cayde's killers (no more, no less).

In this instance, Uldren ends up dead no matter what you choose, so it really should have been made into a player-driven moment.

Speaking of western conventions, one of my favorite moments in the campaign was when the barons show up in silhouette along the ridge. Classic.


Sadly, Neither Sammy nor I caught that. Wasn't until I ran my second character that I noticed it. Very nice, easily-missable moment.


Yeah. I like Gears instead of loving it, but one of its innovations was giving us a hud indicator at certain moments and a quick way to automatically direct the camera to something worth seeing in game. It's a nice solution.

During one of the Dead Space ViDocs, the devs talked about how, if you don't take control from the player's hands, they can miss around 20-40% of scripted moments. One of the keys to preventing this is framing:
Want them to be looking in a certain direction? Have them moving towards it, or guide their eyes or ears towards the direction before you hit them with the moment.

Because the Baron appearance happens in a wide open area, while you've got enemies on every side, and you can approach the ridge from any direction, it's very poorly framed.

Bungie could have had a heavily-damaged Fallen skiff taking off away from the Scorn, only to get shot down and fall behind the ridge as the Fanatic came into view, followed by the Barons. That way you're showing how the Fallen and Scorn don't get along, you're directing the player's focus, and you are guiding them towards their next destination, and you're eating your cake by having a western shot.

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Is it really that ambigious?

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Tuesday, September 11, 2018, 13:21 (2057 days ago) @ Korny

I disagree that it cheapens the question, but I think the "we're evil zombies" idea can and probably will crop up later, and I'd rather have the clarifying moment (player choice or not) towards the end of the series.


I have a theory that it will be the Traveler who is shown to be less-than benevolent. Not evil, but selfish, and the Ghosts and Guardians will force its hand in favor of Humanity/Eliksni, even if it takes a few Warsats trained on him to keep him form escaping the Darkness once more.

Plausible.

Plenty of other games have nailed the question and answer to this scenario.

Again, I like how it was handled at this point in the series.


It's weird that they ask this question in such a rushed way, though. Sure, the Mad Bomber posits the question as we're crossing off the list, and Ghost reassures us about it, but very little about it has any impact on our motivations throughout (more so since some of the Barons are brought back to life after the game anyway).

I would totally kill for a moment like the end of Metal Gear Solid 3, though, were we come to the realization that nothing was as it seemed, and it hits you that you're just one pawn in a bigger game, down to having no choice but to pull the trigger to continue the game.

I mean. He was still a spiteful antagonist long before the Beholder got his phone number, and he clearly showed no remorse after he was "cured". Not a redeemable character. Maybe with better writing in-game.


Yeah, sure, the hatred of guardians is strong in this one. Should we become like those who hate us?


I love the way Warframe handled this question throughout the entirety of the "War Within" quest. Your character, a Tenno, was feared and hated, and brought about Warframe's version of The Collapse. You are directly responsible for the extinction of an entire civilization... But you did it for love. The same motivation as the game's main antagonist. You were no better; worse, in fact, because while he betrayed his own people, you slaughtered them... but you don't remember any of it.

So at six or seven different points during the quest, you are given an opportunity to remember something, or remember how you felt about it. Depending on your choices, your character develops a Day/Night/Balanced morality.
Were they right about you? Or were you not what they made you seem? Or are you a completely different person than the one you were before?
All of these choices are presented to you, so you can decide who your character is.

Thanks for the examples.

Personally. I would have had my character nod at Petra, and walk off. She earned her revenge (since she actually cared about Cayde and her people), and I completed my mission of hunting down Cayde's killers (no more, no less).

That's what I imagine for my character, too.


In this instance, Uldren ends up dead no matter what you choose, so it really should have been made into a player-driven moment.

Yeah, but Destiny doesn't have a Paragon/Renegade meter, and I think there are larger narrative issues at play regarding the nature of guardians, so it's a bigger question than which means do I use to pursue good ends.

Speaking of western conventions, one of my favorite moments in the campaign was when the barons show up in silhouette along the ridge. Classic.


Sadly, Neither Sammy nor I caught that. Wasn't until I ran my second character that I noticed it. Very nice, easily-missable moment.


Yeah. I like Gears instead of loving it, but one of its innovations was giving us a hud indicator at certain moments and a quick way to automatically direct the camera to something worth seeing in game. It's a nice solution.


During one of the Dead Space ViDocs, the devs talked about how, if you don't take control from the player's hands, they can miss around 20-40% of scripted moments. One of the keys to preventing this is framing:
Want them to be looking in a certain direction? Have them moving towards it, or guide their eyes or ears towards the direction before you hit them with the moment.

Because the Baron appearance happens in a wide open area, while you've got enemies on every side, and you can approach the ridge from any direction, it's very poorly framed.

Bungie could have had a heavily-damaged Fallen skiff taking off away from the Scorn, only to get shot down and fall behind the ridge as the Fanatic came into view, followed by the Barons. That way you're showing how the Fallen and Scorn don't get along, you're directing the player's focus, and you are guiding them towards their next destination, and you're eating your cake by having a western shot.

That would've worked well.

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Is it really that ambigious?

by cheapLEY @, Thursday, September 13, 2018, 12:59 (2055 days ago) @ Korny

During one of the Dead Space ViDocs, the devs talked about how, if you don't take control from the player's hands, they can miss around 20-40% of scripted moments. One of the keys to preventing this is framing:
Want them to be looking in a certain direction? Have them moving towards it, or guide their eyes or ears towards the direction before you hit them with the moment.

Because the Baron appearance happens in a wide open area, while you've got enemies on every side, and you can approach the ridge from any direction, it's very poorly framed.

That's not true, though. I literally just finished that quest on my second character, I have no idea how you missed it. They spawn immediately after you walk out of the cave, and unless you turned to look at the cave wall as you exited, you'd have to be staring right at them.

I suppose it's possible that you could turn immediately after exiting the cave and not be close enough to trigger them spawning, but you'd have to be ignoring the nav marker on you HUD, and you'd have to turn really quick. They spawned in three steps outside the cave.

Bungie did everything possible to do exactly what you described, save for literally taking control from players and just having it be a cutscene.

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Is it really that ambigious?

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Thursday, September 13, 2018, 14:40 (2054 days ago) @ cheapLEY

During one of the Dead Space ViDocs, the devs talked about how, if you don't take control from the player's hands, they can miss around 20-40% of scripted moments. One of the keys to preventing this is framing:
Want them to be looking in a certain direction? Have them moving towards it, or guide their eyes or ears towards the direction before you hit them with the moment.

Because the Baron appearance happens in a wide open area, while you've got enemies on every side, and you can approach the ridge from any direction, it's very poorly framed.


That's not true, though. I literally just finished that quest on my second character, I have no idea how you missed it. They spawn immediately after you walk out of the cave, and unless you turned to look at the cave wall as you exited, you'd have to be staring right at them.

I suppose it's possible that you could turn immediately after exiting the cave and not be close enough to trigger them spawning, but you'd have to be ignoring the nav marker on you HUD, and you'd have to turn really quick. They spawned in three steps outside the cave.

Bungie did everything possible to do exactly what you described, save for literally taking control from players and just having it be a cutscene.

When you go through the second door (after the rock wall disappears), you can either drop down into the cave, or go to the right, which has you right below the ridge (at an angle that makes it impossible to see). Maybe I triggered them too soon.

Also, IIRC, the cave exit doesn’t quite point towards the ridge, but towards the door where you meet up with Spider’s minions, which is the direction Sammy went. Plus, you’re in the middle of a fight with Scorn, so many players will be distracted with that. The first time, I didn’t even hear Ghost say “there, on the ridge”.

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Is it really that ambigious?

by cheapLEY @, Thursday, September 13, 2018, 17:07 (2054 days ago) @ Korny

Also, IIRC, the cave exit doesn’t quite point towards the ridge, but towards the door where you meet up with Spider’s minions, which is the direction Sammy went. Plus, you’re in the middle of a fight with Scorn, so many players will be distracted with that. The first time, I didn’t even hear Ghost say “there, on the ridge”.

The cave where I exited is pointed literally directly at the ridge. I was down in the middle though, and not on the path above. I did forget about the Scorn, though. Do they leave the cave and spread out if you don't kill them quickly enough? I killed them in the cave and then there is nothing else out there and until you walk towards that Servitor, but the Barons appear on the ridge before any more Scorn spawn.

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Is it really that ambigious?

by breitzen @, Kansas, Tuesday, September 11, 2018, 12:14 (2057 days ago) @ Kermit

I mean sure, it technically is, because of the cut and we don't see anything.

But our Guardian lowers their gun at one point, then right before the gun raises it and points it at Uldren again. That seems pretty clear to me.

My Guardian certainly pulled the trigger. ;)


I thought it was implied Petra did it via Venstian Dynasty.


And I thought it was implied that both guns fired.

Apparently, they did a pretty good job of leaving it ambiguous. :)


Which is for the best, at least to the extent that it would have gone a way towards answering Uldren's question about our goodness.

I realize that one of the conventions of this western-themed expansion is rugged justice, but Uldren was obviously manipulated, and I like that idea that my guardian might have shown mercy at the last.

+1
I agree. And my headcanon is right there with you.

I do think Bungie's version is "Both Petra and the Guardian kill Uldren". Everything from the Theme of the story, the Line "You won't have to, Uldren Sov is mine." to our Guardian's actions of lowering then raising their weapon after Uldren's line about the Light and Dark, implies that we weighed that statement, and found him still in the wrong. The text presented with Petra gives you Vespian makes it pretty clear she shot too. I think the biggest clue is the gunshot itself. You can definitely hear Vespian, but I think its way too loud for only a sidearm shot. There's definitely hand cannon audio mixed in there.

TLDR: I think if you look really closely you can figure out what Bungie's version is, but its presented in a way that lets you decide the outcome. #HanShotFirst

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Is it really that ambigious?

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Tuesday, September 11, 2018, 13:11 (2057 days ago) @ breitzen
edited by Kermit, Tuesday, September 11, 2018, 13:48


TLDR: I think if you look really closely you can figure out what Bungie's version is, but its presented in a way that lets you decide the outcome. #HanShotFirst

Hey, hold on there. I'm a true-blue believer that Han Shot first. Literally got the T-shirt. The dumb thing about what Lucas changed was that Han shooting first was Han's best chance at survival. He knew Greedo wouldn't hesitate to shoot him under the table, and there was no guarantee that Greedo would miss. Uldren was unarmed and had two guns aimed at him, so it wasn't really a stand-off situation. When your ghost says "Not this way" he's acknowledging that shooting an unarmed man isn't honorable.

I don't think there is a Bungie version except to make it ambigious.

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Firefly Perk makes this a messy subject

by Robot Chickens, Tuesday, September 11, 2018, 13:00 (2057 days ago) @ cheapLEY

- No text -

lol

by Claude Errera @, Tuesday, September 11, 2018, 13:19 (2057 days ago) @ Robot Chickens

- No text -

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I imagine my Titan using Sweet Business to finish the job

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Tuesday, September 11, 2018, 13:38 (2057 days ago) @ Robot Chickens

Me: pulls out ace of spaces
Ghost: Not this way...
Me: pulls out sweet business
Ghost: That's better.

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heart shots are easier to make

by Harmanimus @, Tuesday, September 11, 2018, 15:30 (2056 days ago) @ Robot Chickens

- No text -

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Assuming his 'crit' was in his head...

by BlackstarBSP, Wednesday, September 12, 2018, 20:13 (2055 days ago) @ Robot Chickens

Bungie might have placed it... elsewhere. :O

In any event, Vestian Dynasty doesn't 'sound' like that, so wouldn't that have to mean it was 'Ace of Spades' firing anyway?

Thank you!

by Oholiab @, Monday, September 10, 2018, 14:26 (2057 days ago) @ Ragashingo

I wish I had the time to immerse myself in the story of Destiny. It’s just so incredibly rich, but I still find it time-consuming to read, study, compile, and cross-reference in order to fully understand.

On the other hand, I truly appreciate that it’s deep enough to warrant study. Maybe when the kids leave the house, and I need a hobby I can dig into it more. Until then... I want an all-encompassing novel!

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Paging story experts *SP*

by Harmanimus @, Monday, September 10, 2018, 12:32 (2058 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

Show up with Eliksni from House of Kings, murder half your people, maybe someone is gonna try to do something about it.

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Paging story experts *SP*

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, September 10, 2018, 09:51 (2058 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

On a whole I like that some of these things are teased and that we don't get everything explained to us. However, there are some things that I feel should be explained, one of the biggest ones was why Uldren was in prison and why he felt compelled to shoot one of the vanguard.

I have not finished the story, but while the game is fun the story is pretty shit so far. The lore may indeed be really cool, but if you mean to tell me that basic character motivations that give the dramatic conflicts clarity are not presented to the audience even by the end, then it's even worse than I thought.

I see not even a basic understanding of story function and dramatic principles at play here. That's as non hyperbolic as I can put it. I'd be happy to explain all in detail when I finish the story in a post nobody at Bungie will ever read.

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Paging story experts *SP*

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, September 10, 2018, 11:36 (2058 days ago) @ Cody Miller

On a whole I like that some of these things are teased and that we don't get everything explained to us. However, there are some things that I feel should be explained, one of the biggest ones was why Uldren was in prison and why he felt compelled to shoot one of the vanguard.


I have not finished the story, but while the game is fun the story is pretty shit so far. The lore may indeed be really cool, but if you mean to tell me that basic character motivations that give the dramatic conflicts clarity are not presented to the audience even by the end, then it's even worse than I thought.

I see not even a basic understanding of story function and dramatic principles at play here. That's as non hyperbolic as I can put it. I'd be happy to explain all in detail when I finish the story in a post nobody at Bungie will ever read.


*** FORSAKEN SPOILERS ***

As someone else pointed out (was it you, Cheapley?), there’s a pretty big disconnect between what we’re told is happening via the cutscenes (our guardian goes off alone on a quest for revenge) vs what we actually experience (guardians EVERYWHERE, lol). There was definitely room to setup some greater consistency there. As far as the driving plot of the main campaign, I thought it was functional and serviceable (I always knew why I was where I was, and what my goal was). This is actually a fair step up from some of the previous story telling in the franchise, IMO.

If we’re getting down to the motivation of the characters, then I think in some cases it’s intentionally vague/mysterious/misleading (Uldren), other cases I think it’s left unexplored because it doesn’t really matter (the Barons). Uldren’s side of the story is clearly part of what’s being dealt with in the Dreaming City. What I’m curious about is the vanguard. Over the course of D2, they’ve set up a fair bit of tension between Zavala and Ikora. The former’s defensive and conservative priorities are somewhat at odds with the laters renewed dedication to action and boldness. My hope is that they’re actually going somewhere with this. As of right now, Zavala is looking more and more like an old cowardly grump who just shows up to say “no” to everyone while our everyone else (mostly our guardian) does everything. They need to either tell a story where Zavala proves to be right, allowing he and Ikora to achieve and recognize a sort of balance between them, or the rift needs to have actual consequences (perhaps leading to division within the vanguard?).

Being Destiny, I’m tempted to think all this boils down to 1-note “character development”; Zavala is the protective one, Ikora is aggressive, and Cayde is the funny one. That’s all they’ll ever be, and that’s what we’ll get from them until the end of the franchise (we’ll, not from Cayde ;p. #toosoon?). But I’m hoping this isn’t the case. There’s an opportunity to use these characters in interesting ways.

Avatar

Paging story experts *SP*

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Monday, September 10, 2018, 11:55 (2058 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

On a whole I like that some of these things are teased and that we don't get everything explained to us. However, there are some things that I feel should be explained, one of the biggest ones was why Uldren was in prison and why he felt compelled to shoot one of the vanguard.


I have not finished the story, but while the game is fun the story is pretty shit so far. The lore may indeed be really cool, but if you mean to tell me that basic character motivations that give the dramatic conflicts clarity are not presented to the audience even by the end, then it's even worse than I thought.

I see not even a basic understanding of story function and dramatic principles at play here. That's as non hyperbolic as I can put it. I'd be happy to explain all in detail when I finish the story in a post nobody at Bungie will ever read.

*** FORSAKEN SPOILERS ***

As someone else pointed out (was it you, Cheapley?), there’s a pretty big disconnect between what we’re told is happening via the cutscenes (our guardian goes off alone on a quest for revenge) vs what we actually experience (guardians EVERYWHERE, lol). There was definitely room to setup some greater consistency there. As far as the driving plot of the main campaign, I thought it was functional and serviceable (I always knew why I was where I was, and what my goal was). This is actually a fair step up from some of the previous story telling in the franchise, IMO.

If we’re getting down to the motivation of the characters, then I think in some cases it’s intentionally vague/mysterious/misleading (Uldren), other cases I think it’s left unexplored because it doesn’t really matter (the Barons). Uldren’s side of the story is clearly part of what’s being dealt with in the Dreaming City. What I’m curious about is the vanguard. Over the course of D2, they’ve set up a fair bit of tension between Zavala and Ikora. The former’s defensive and conservative priorities are somewhat at odds with the laters renewed dedication to action and boldness. My hope is that they’re actually going somewhere with this. As of right now, Zavala is looking more and more like an old cowardly grump who just shows up to say “no” to everyone while our everyone else (mostly our guardian) does everything. They need to either tell a story where Zavala proves to be right, allowing he and Ikora to achieve and recognize a sort of balance between them, or the rift needs to have actual consequences (perhaps leading to division within the vanguard?).

Being Destiny, I’m tempted to think all this boils down to 1-note “character development”; Zavala is the protective one, Ikora is aggressive, and Cayde is the funny one. That’s all they’ll ever be, and that’s what we’ll get from them until the end of the franchise (we’ll, not from Cayde ;p. #toosoon?). But I’m hoping this isn’t the case. There’s an opportunity to use these characters in interesting ways.

I think it will be interesting to see what happens when we get our cayde replacement. Will he be more like Zavala or Ikora? Will that push the tide to one side? My guess is the person will lean more towards Ikora in which case there might very well be a split in the vangaurd. However, you already find out that Ikora is trying to be responsible by taking a bullet to keep the vanguard in one piece because that's what people need. I think Ikora is just as responsible as Zavala, she is just far more impulsive.

Avatar

Paging story experts *SP*

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, September 10, 2018, 13:19 (2058 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

On a whole I like that some of these things are teased and that we don't get everything explained to us. However, there are some things that I feel should be explained, one of the biggest ones was why Uldren was in prison and why he felt compelled to shoot one of the vanguard.


I have not finished the story, but while the game is fun the story is pretty shit so far. The lore may indeed be really cool, but if you mean to tell me that basic character motivations that give the dramatic conflicts clarity are not presented to the audience even by the end, then it's even worse than I thought.

I see not even a basic understanding of story function and dramatic principles at play here. That's as non hyperbolic as I can put it. I'd be happy to explain all in detail when I finish the story in a post nobody at Bungie will ever read.

*** FORSAKEN SPOILERS ***

As someone else pointed out (was it you, Cheapley?), there’s a pretty big disconnect between what we’re told is happening via the cutscenes (our guardian goes off alone on a quest for revenge) vs what we actually experience (guardians EVERYWHERE, lol). There was definitely room to setup some greater consistency there. As far as the driving plot of the main campaign, I thought it was functional and serviceable (I always knew why I was where I was, and what my goal was). This is actually a fair step up from some of the previous story telling in the franchise, IMO.

If we’re getting down to the motivation of the characters, then I think in some cases it’s intentionally vague/mysterious/misleading (Uldren), other cases I think it’s left unexplored because it doesn’t really matter (the Barons). Uldren’s side of the story is clearly part of what’s being dealt with in the Dreaming City. What I’m curious about is the vanguard. Over the course of D2, they’ve set up a fair bit of tension between Zavala and Ikora. The former’s defensive and conservative priorities are somewhat at odds with the laters renewed dedication to action and boldness. My hope is that they’re actually going somewhere with this. As of right now, Zavala is looking more and more like an old cowardly grump who just shows up to say “no” to everyone while our everyone else (mostly our guardian) does everything. They need to either tell a story where Zavala proves to be right, allowing he and Ikora to achieve and recognize a sort of balance between them, or the rift needs to have actual consequences (perhaps leading to division within the vanguard?).

Being Destiny, I’m tempted to think all this boils down to 1-note “character development”; Zavala is the protective one, Ikora is aggressive, and Cayde is the funny one. That’s all they’ll ever be, and that’s what we’ll get from them until the end of the franchise (we’ll, not from Cayde ;p. #toosoon?). But I’m hoping this isn’t the case. There’s an opportunity to use these characters in interesting ways.


I think it will be interesting to see what happens when we get our cayde replacement. Will he be more like Zavala or Ikora? Will that push the tide to one side? My guess is the person will lean more towards Ikora in which case there might very well be a split in the vangaurd. However, you already find out that Ikora is trying to be responsible by taking a bullet to keep the vanguard in one piece because that's what people need. I think Ikora is just as responsible as Zavala, she is just far more impulsive.

I certainly get the sense that both Zavala and Ikora are equally concerned about responsibility, they're just opposite sides of the same coin.

For Zavala, the continuing survival of Humantiy is his responsibility (in his mind). The events of the Red War have in turn made him somewhat single-minded in his priorities. He refuses to do anything that could jeopardize the safety of the City, regardless of what other gains may be made. On the flip side, Ikora has internalized her responsibility in a very personal way. "The traveler has given me one life to live...". That line, I think, is very representative of her frame of mind right now. Even though she has the light back, she sees it as her personal responsibility to act in whatever way is right. To Zavala, right is whatever is safest for the city. Ikora is thinking bigger than that, which is arguably a higher moral point to stand on, but is certainly more dangerous. And with humanity right on the edge of extinction, its tough to blame Zavala for his cautious approach.

There's potential here, because this is the eternal division and tension between the more open and adventurous types and the more cautious and conservative types. History proves time and again that both approaches have their advantages and their down sides, and finding the proper balance is key to progress and prosperity. But I can't help feeling like its a stretch to think that Destiny's narrative will ever go anywhere near this stuff. We're at the start of year 5 now, and we're just barely, possibly, seeing the first hints of the Vanguard characters being more that hollow, cliche, cardboard cutouts. Still fun to think about, though :)

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Zavala needs to go to pasture

by Schedonnardus, Texas, Wednesday, September 12, 2018, 07:38 (2056 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

he's lost his guts.

He wanted to cut bait on Titan during the Red War.

even after defeating whatever in the hell that was, he still lectures us. We just saved the solar system AGAIN from some cosmic fantastical beast thing. Uldren hates humans and guardians, always has. Taking him out was best for the city. Sitting on you hands waiting for them to amass an army is not.

At what point does non-guardian humans start to disbelieve in the vanguard and start worshiping our guardian? Our guardian has succeeded where thousands of very famous guardians have failed.

That would be an interesting plot line where Zavala could actually turn against us. What if Zavala and the speaker had been using the Traveler for their own personal gains. Zavala is trying to keep us in check b/c he's afraid of us learning too much.

When playing warmind, and we help Anna Bray hack into the facility, and when we open the door, Zavala was standing there, i was thinking how in the eff did he get down here? Then he was content to let a worm god run rampant all over mars and told us not to get involved. Something just doesn't sit right with me about him.

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Zavala did nothing wrong

by narcogen ⌂ @, Andover, Massachusetts, Wednesday, September 12, 2018, 08:53 (2056 days ago) @ Schedonnardus

I honestly don't think they really want us thinking about Zavala this way. They're just using this to manufacture dramatic conflict between NPCs that we resolve with our actions. They've just designated Zavala as the person who feels that maintaining the status quo is the best that can be expected-- a status quo the player breaks by acting.

The problem is that I basically agreed with Zavala, given the information on hand. The real threat in the story wasn't Uldren, it was the person they were working for. That wasn't the thesis Zavala was responding to, though, and Petra never interacts with Zavala. She just recruits Cayde to clean up her mess without actually telling anyone what's really going on, or how her own actions precipitated the crisis (at least, not until it's over) and then Zavala and Ikora fight over whether or not it's worth taking the risk to get revenge on Uldren.

Zavala concludes, rightly I think, that it isn't. It IS worth it to figure out what's going on in the Dreaming City that poses a bigger threat, but that's not the argument Ikora is making, and there's actually no hint that Zavala knows or is ever told anything about it.

If only our guardian could speak more than a few words, we could have told him...

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+1

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Wednesday, September 12, 2018, 11:11 (2056 days ago) @ narcogen

- No text -

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Zavala did nothing wrong

by Harmanimus @, Wednesday, September 12, 2018, 11:26 (2056 days ago) @ narcogen

Or if Ghost would talk when it was important instead of never shutting up when it isn’t.

Also, I think it is important to look at Zavala and Ikora both in the context of D1 (Major threats abounds, but the City itself was generally safe.) Zavala didn’t trust Rasputin and believed in our Guardian and protecting the City. He continues to act to those same considerations but the Red War got him shook. All of Destiny 2 has seen the Vanguard reacting to Trauma (past and current) and I think there is definitely a lot more showing that Zavala is exhausted in more ways than one and he feels a much greater need to protect what he can at all costs because he failed to the last time.

Ikora extrapolates in a similar fashion.

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Zavala needs to go to pasture

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, September 12, 2018, 12:03 (2056 days ago) @ Schedonnardus

Normal humans don’t know about guardians.

I distinctly remember a normal person in the tower commenting in a random voice line that many people in the city don’t even believe guardians are real.

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Zavala needs to go to pasture

by breitzen @, Kansas, Wednesday, September 12, 2018, 12:19 (2056 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Normal humans don’t know about guardians.

I distinctly remember a normal person in the tower commenting in a random voice line that many people in the city don’t even believe guardians are real.

After the D2 campaign they’d better.

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Zavala needs to go to pasture

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, September 12, 2018, 12:53 (2056 days ago) @ breitzen

Normal humans don’t know about guardians.

I distinctly remember a normal person in the tower commenting in a random voice line that many people in the city don’t even believe guardians are real.


After the D2 campaign they’d better.

Yes, granted this was back in House of Wolves when I heard that line.

Helpful!

by Oholiab @, Monday, September 10, 2018, 08:13 (2058 days ago) @ Ragashingo

I haven’t even looked at the Triumphs tab, nor did I realize you could access the lore there!

I’m okay with discovering answers along the way. I just wanted to be sure I didn’t miss something in the plot/dialogue thus far.

I’m now even more excited to get into the rest of this game. FWIW, I’m really enjoying it, though I do feel like I’m swimming in the deep end with all there is to see and do!

Paging story experts *SP*

by Claude Errera @, Monday, September 10, 2018, 11:41 (2058 days ago) @ Ragashingo

Go dig around in the Lore section of your Triumphs screen. There may not be a ton unlocked (mine is still a whole lot of "Unknown"s and "??????"s) but there is probably something interesting for you to read.

I spent a few hours last night just running around, looking for little sparkling things on various maps. Mine is now much more filled out than it was before. :)

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