Sorry, but I'm still on the fence.

by Injunfett, Monday, February 18, 2013, 11:33 (4056 days ago)

First of let me say that I have been a follower and fan of Bungie since I played Myth I love the studio and I love their games.

With what we have seen about the game so far I am just not sold. Yes I love the story and I think the game has potential but I just don’t know enough about the game right now to make a firm decision, and the release has just left me with even more questions then we have the answers to.

All the info that came out from the event is pretty much what we have already learned through leaks. We have been shown mostly concept art and some quick gameplay and to be honest it looks a lot like Halo with some Mass Effect mixed in.

My biggest issue so far is the MMO side of things, while its already been said “It’s not really a MMO just shares aspects of a MMO” I’m not a fan of MMO’s I have tried to play them but they are boring to me and most of the time turn into nothing but a grind fest.

I play games for a great solo player experience and competitive multiplayer and when start talking loot drops, crafting, and other in game features that allow customization all I can think of is grinding and I hate grinding. I don’t want to have to spend tons of hours collecting resources and crunching numbers to insure that I have the top gear when I compete online.

Call of Duty introduced the leveling system in multiplayer and while it has been a hit amongst most gamers I have not been a fan. I like picking up a game logging on and being on a level playing field with the rest of the people playing a game, not at a dis-advantage because I did not put in the hours on a dungeon, raid, or resource gathering to get that super cool custom gun and custom armor that kills twice as fast and keeps me alive twice as long.

I’m also not very social I have a select few I play games with online and that’s it I have no interested in text alerts or other social features in the game to get me addicted to the game. I mean I have been a member of HBO for years now I check daily read the forums but I never interact that much because like I said I’m not a very social person so social features in a game are not a selling point for me.

Now don’t get me wrong I’m not saying I hate this game or that I won’t buy it because we don’t really know much about it. What I am saying is that with what has been announced and teased nothing has really peaked my interests.

I play games that have great game play and are enjoyable. I don’t want gimmicks, tricks, or other features that are developed to encourage you to grind to be on a level playing field. I’m ready for the next evolution of the FPS genre to get away from the Call of Duty Complex that is taking over the FPS Genre though and if Bungie thinks that this is the next step I’m listing and watching but I’m not sold yet.

Sorry, but I'm still on the fence.

by Stephen, Monday, February 18, 2013, 11:45 (4056 days ago) @ Injunfett

I can appreciate your apprehension. MMOs are one of those terms that draws a strong reaction from gamers.

Have you played Borderlands by any chance? That game has some very MMO-esque archetypes despite it being a singleplayer/co-op game.

I too am curious as to how the gear and such will work. Leveling seems to be the most obvious approach but I wonder if there would be ways around that like having all gear be at the same base damage but having secondary effects that make it more or less valuable.

Regardless, one of the core pillars Bungie expressed to IGN was that each time you play the game it should bring something new. Necessity to grind to get the best gear is basically the anti-thesis of that so I wouldn't be so quick to assume that's the route they are taking.

Sorry, but I'm still on the fence.

by Injunfett, Monday, February 18, 2013, 11:55 (4056 days ago) @ Stephen

Yeah I have played both Boarder Lands but have never finished either I always loose interest about half way through the game. Like I said I play alone most of the time so I don't really enjoy the co-op that much.

I agree it is to early to know exactly how this game is going to turn out, I am just stating what I don't want it to turn into.

I'm an Introvert I like to spend time in my games alone, when I play competitive multiplayer I play alone in matchmaking, or a lot of FFA.

My hopes are this game is a unique world were I can do what I want, explore, fight battles, and occasionally team up and fight with some friends which is what most MMO's promise but a lot of the time with a MMO you end up with a world that you can explore while your grinding through it. Its just with what we have been told thus far nothing has really caught my interested and made me OMFG excited like I thought I would be after this press release.

Sorry, but I'm still on the fence.

by Stephen, Monday, February 18, 2013, 12:02 (4056 days ago) @ Injunfett

Which MMOs specifically are you thinking of?

I had not played an MMO prior to trying out the Old Republic earlier this year and it cleared up a lot of misconceptions I had about the genre. That game had virtually no grinding in the time I played. If I was too low level for the next story quest I would just pre-occupy myself with sidequests in the area I was in. I have no doubt Bungie will have it so that you can play the whole game free of grinding.

Sorry, but I'm still on the fence.

by Injunfett, Monday, February 18, 2013, 12:17 (4056 days ago) @ Stephen

I have played a bunch of MMO's STO, SWTOR, HGL, WOW, FireFall, off the top of my head. I liked SWTOR It's one of my favorites.

I however did not to get to take part of anything other then the Story Quest. When I started reaching higher levels I could not do any more flash points because I did not have any PVE gear so I would get destroyed. This happen due to the large fact that I played mostly PVP while leveling up.

End Game has always been the major issue. In SWTOR Once the story is over and the quest are done you have nothing to do but Grind Flash points for better Gear or Grind PVP for commendations for PVP gear. (Now that might have changed it has been awhile since I play) Then once you grind to the end and get your top gear you are left to do the same pvp matches, and flash points you just grinded for hours again with the new gear or wait for new content or purchase the expansion packs to repeat the steps all over again.

Yeah I am sure Bungie knows this and has something planned out that separates Destiny from MMO's hence why they are so hesitant to call the game a MMO. My point is we have no clue at this moment what that is.

From this press release I have gotten no solid facts about what to expect, or why I would actually want to play this game other then I like the back story and the art work looks stellar. I'm interested but still on the fence if that makes sense.

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As an aside - let's not pull rank

by Jillybean, Monday, February 18, 2013, 12:03 (4056 days ago) @ Injunfett

I've seen this a bit on DBO already - the "I've been a fan of Bungie since..."

Let's not pull rank, guys. We're all mostly the old crowd right now but you never know when someone researching fic purposes might follow a link and come in. Some of the oldest Bungie fans aren't convinced, some of the newest ones are. It doesn't hurt our standing as fans any no matter what side of the fence we end up on. You have to assess things personally.

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Spoken like a true Bungie newb ;) *NM*

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Monday, February 18, 2013, 12:05 (4056 days ago) @ Jillybean

- No text -

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Always

by Jillybean, Monday, February 18, 2013, 12:05 (4056 days ago) @ Xenos

- No text -

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As an aside - let's not pull rank

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, February 18, 2013, 12:14 (4056 days ago) @ Jillybean

I've seen this a bit on DBO already - the "I've been a fan of Bungie since..."

Let's not pull rank, guys. We're all mostly the old crowd right now but you never know when someone researching fic purposes might follow a link and come in. Some of the oldest Bungie fans aren't convinced, some of the newest ones are. It doesn't hurt our standing as fans any no matter what side of the fence we end up on. You have to assess things personally.

But ... but I'm old. Shouldn't that count for something?

I'm guilty as charged, but in fairness I was responding to a question that called me out as a long-time Bungie fan.

I will try to do better about not referring to my decrepitude in every post, though.

As an aside - let's not pull rank

by Injunfett, Monday, February 18, 2013, 12:22 (4056 days ago) @ Jillybean

Sorry was not really meaning to pull rank. I was just trying to state how long I have been following and my faith in Bungie in order to show that even though I have my doubts on the information released so far about the game that I am a big fan and open to the possibility of change just hesitant about it.

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As an aside - let's not pull rank

by Jillybean, Monday, February 18, 2013, 12:36 (4056 days ago) @ Injunfett

No worries - I do it too! I just noticed it was cropping up a lot and I know a lot of the names around here. I'd hate to be discouraging people

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As an aside - let's not pull rank

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, February 19, 2013, 19:53 (4055 days ago) @ Jillybean

Quite right. Especially don't pull rank if you've only been with Bungie since Myth. Noob. Marathon 1 or earlier for any real cred.

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Sorry, but I'm still on the fence.

by Anton P. Nym (aka Steve) ⌂ @, London, Ontario, Canada, Monday, February 18, 2013, 12:18 (4056 days ago) @ Injunfett

Grinding only matters in MMOs if you need XPs/currency/whatever to continue playing the game. If those are important in Destiny, then grinding may be an issue; if they're not (if, for instance, the leveling shown was akin to the levelling in Reach or Halo 4) then grinding may not factor at all.

-- Steve's definitely keeping an eye on that issue, but so far there isn't enough info in the public sphere to say one way or the other.

Sorry, but I'm still on the fence.

by Injunfett, Monday, February 18, 2013, 12:28 (4056 days ago) @ Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)

Which is my point I get scared hearing words like, MMO, and Social now because they seem to just be gimmicks and without solid details like I hoped we were getting on the fence I shall be!

Bungie have been social b4 WoW existed

by scarab @, Monday, February 18, 2013, 12:45 (4056 days ago) @ Injunfett
edited by scarab, Monday, February 18, 2013, 12:50

As a long term Bungie fan maybe you could list their games and the networking/multiplayer aspects that they contained and contrast them with their contemporaries.

Bungie's definition of social is playing with other people and having fun.

But you can just ignore people who you encounter. And you never know, you may see some guardians getting their butts kicked and help them out for a bit then move on. Ships, passing in the night.

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Sorry, but I'm still on the fence.

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Monday, February 18, 2013, 12:59 (4056 days ago) @ Injunfett

Which is my point I get scared hearing words like, MMO, and Social now because they seem to just be gimmicks and without solid details like I hoped we were getting on the fence I shall be!

Nothin' wrong with that. I can see pretty easily how they can do good drop in and out single player. Just use level and trueskill and whatever to not pull in someone way too good or bad. Playing with friends, yeah, that's where it gets interesting.

The only source I can think to look to is, again, Mass Effect 3. In its multiplayer you start out with a small handful of classes who themselves only have access to a fraction of their powers and passive abilities. You also don't have the inventory of guns, ammo powers, and healing items that you build up by playing. But even with all of that once you know how the game plays you can jump in to a mid or even high level match and fare well enough to help your team out. Sure, you aren't near as powerful as you will be. Yes you will likely score less points. But as long as you know what you're doing I'd rather have you at level 1 than be a man down.

Maybe Destiny will be like that. Maybe the core combat cycle will be such that someone without all the fancy powers and guns can still contribute as long as they have a handle on the game. How that works with a world that is, presumably, much bigger than ME3's 20 minuteish matches is beyond me though.

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Sorry, but I'm still on the fence.

by Anton P. Nym (aka Steve) ⌂ @, London, Ontario, Canada, Monday, February 18, 2013, 13:12 (4056 days ago) @ Ragashingo

ME3 makes that work with two factors that often get overlooked; firstly, it's all co-op play against AI enemies, so no getting beat by bigger and tougher players, and secondly XP gets divided up equally among the team so you don't get the higher-level characters "hogging" all the advancement. It really does encourage team play that way.

-- Steve's seen some griefing in ME3, but not nearly as much as in other titles.

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Sorry, but I'm still on the fence.

by Hedge ⌂, Australia, Monday, February 18, 2013, 13:18 (4056 days ago) @ Injunfett

All of my thoughts are in this Forbes article.

Forbe's article

I'm ready for change. Bungie style.

-Hedge.

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Sorry, but I'm still on the fence.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, February 18, 2013, 19:14 (4056 days ago) @ Hedge

From the article:

We need our video game worlds to be constant and endless, not thrown out in eight hour chunks every two years.

This is where I disagree, and why Destiny does not personally interest me. This is not to say that it will be a bad game, but just one that I don't really care to play.

I want to be able to turn off a game, and when I return have the world be as a left it. That is my personal preference. I want my life to dictate when I play games, not what's happening in the game world to dictate when I'll be playing. I do not want to have to worry about whether or not something is happening in the world that I'm missing, because I'm doing something in real life.

This is why the social aspect turns me off greatly, since it's anti-social in a way, encouraging interaction through abstraction rather than actual exchanges. You're sitting at home on a couch alone. Will Destiny offer split screen play? Or will you have to bring Xboxes together to play in person? Why would you do this when the game is telling you to just play online, encouraging you with the 'always connected' moniker?

We're already at at a point where our virtual social interactions and the image we project of ourselves is becoming more real than the actual thing. What are your friends doing on facebook? Oh wow! Look how cool John is!

I'm reminded of Baudrillard when he wrote of the paradoxical implications of being constantly connected. On one hand, you're everywhere. You can talk to anybody you want, pull down whatever information you desire. But at the same time, you're nowhere, because every computer terminal has access to the same data as every other one, so your physical location is no longer special or unique.

I enjoy social aspects of games when they grow from people who love the game, not social aspects that are designed to be part of the game. I don't know if this makes any sense, but this is what turns me off most about Destiny.

IN MY OPINION OF COURSE

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In that, I share your concern

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Monday, February 18, 2013, 19:28 (4056 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I also dread missing out stuff in RL because of a game or miss out stuff in a game because of RL. I hope whatever Destiny makes me miss out isn't really important/necessary for my enjoyment.

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Sorry, but I'm still on the fence.

by Jillybean, Tuesday, February 19, 2013, 10:23 (4055 days ago) @ Cody Miller

This is why the social aspect turns me off greatly, since it's anti-social in a way, > encouraging interaction through abstraction rather than actual exchanges. You're sitting at home on a couch alone.

Ugh.

Innate predispositions for sociability within the human species survived the agricultural and industrial revolutions, it'll survive the internet revolution too.

Sorry, but I'm still on the fence.

by yakaman, Wednesday, February 20, 2013, 06:36 (4055 days ago) @ Jillybean

This is why the social aspect turns me off greatly, since it's anti-social in a way, > encouraging interaction through abstraction rather than actual exchanges. You're sitting at home on a couch alone.


Ugh.

Innate predispositions for sociability within the human species survived the agricultural and industrial revolutions, it'll survive the internet revolution too.

Legitimate concern, though, in regards to participation. If I cannot commit to social aspects of a game, and the social aspects are primary to the game, then I may not be able to participate in the game. I have been around for years, but never have played an MP match with anyone. (Not that I haven't been invited!).

So although I can still play campaign in (for example) Halo 4, I have not participated in the social aspects of the game in a while. And since people in the community absolutely destroy levels and secrets at a ridiculous pace, I'm not sure how I can contribute. Hence I move to the margins.

Bungie wants to build a real connection within the community, but relationships are "expensive" to me. Will I be able to participate in a meaningful way even though I am very shy online? Will I be able to contribute even though sometimes I miss a few days?

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Sorry, but I'm still on the fence.

by Jillybean, Wednesday, February 20, 2013, 09:29 (4054 days ago) @ yakaman

Gameplay wise, sure, but don't dress it up as the downfall of social behaviour

Sorry, but I'm still on the fence.

by yakaman, Wednesday, February 20, 2013, 10:55 (4054 days ago) @ Jillybean

Gameplay wise, sure, but don't dress it up as the downfall of social behaviour

Conceded.

Sorry, but I'm still on the fence.

by kapowaz, Wednesday, February 20, 2013, 11:20 (4054 days ago) @ Cody Miller

This is why the social aspect turns me off greatly, since it's anti-social in a way, encouraging interaction through abstraction rather than actual exchanges.

I can't help but nod along to this. One thing that the Halo series was especially good for was acting as a medium for social interaction but without any abstraction — you could gather your friends (in person or online) and have a blast together, be that in co-op, firefight or PvP multiplayer. In fact if you look at some of the more popular games with a multiplayer component over the past few years (WoW, Diablo III, Guild Wars, TF2 etc.) this is a big part of their appeal: they're a sandbox for having fun with your friends.

Maybe Destiny will still permit this more traditional, less-abstracted kind of social play. I'd hope that whatever they're cooking up isn't going to render it redundant, at least, because I suspect you're not alone in wanting something that's more pick up and play than invest, engage, socialise. We shall see.

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Sorry, but I'm still on the fence.

by narcogen ⌂ @, Andover, Massachusetts, Monday, February 18, 2013, 19:30 (4056 days ago) @ Injunfett
edited by narcogen, Monday, February 18, 2013, 19:36

First of let me say that I have been a follower and fan of Bungie since I played Myth I love the studio and I love their games.

With what we have seen about the game so far I am just not sold. Yes I love the story and I think the game has potential but I just don’t know enough about the game right now to make a firm decision, and the release has just left me with even more questions then we have the answers to.

That's too bad.

The game is being funded by Kickstarter, right?

So they have to sell us on it now or else it won't be released. I guess they should have given us more information.

As for the rest... loot drops, crafting, and mandatory timed events that you can miss out on or will change your game world while you're not playing (Cody mentioned those)... have any of those things actually been in any way confirmed? Or are we just making stuff up?

I realize plenty of us are justifiably skeptical of marketing claims about games-- but when Bungie says this really isn't an MMO, why is everyone taking that to mean it really is an MMO?

Yesterday's slashdot summary I think used the acronym "MMO" more times than "Bungie" or "Destiny" combined, and I doubt it's at all relevant. Destiny seems to me-- given what little we have to go on-- much less like an MMO than Myth seemed like an RTS game.

It looks to me like a natural expansion of how Mass Effect 3 tried to integrate online coop into the single player campaign. I'm not sure what everybody's panties are in such a twist about. The idea sounds good to me, and that's coming from someone who will probably not be able to play the game due to high ping and low upstream bandwidth.

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Sorry, but I'm still on the fence.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, February 19, 2013, 00:32 (4056 days ago) @ narcogen

As for the rest... loot drops, crafting, and mandatory timed events that you can miss out on or will change your game world while you're not playing (Cody mentioned those)... have any of those things actually been in any way confirmed? Or are we just making stuff up?

Well, by definition a persistent world exists and changes when you aren't in it. So that means yes, you will miss stuff unless you play 24/7.

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Sorry, but I'm still on the fence.

by narcogen ⌂ @, Andover, Massachusetts, Tuesday, February 19, 2013, 19:02 (4055 days ago) @ Cody Miller

As for the rest... loot drops, crafting, and mandatory timed events that you can miss out on or will change your game world while you're not playing (Cody mentioned those)... have any of those things actually been in any way confirmed? Or are we just making stuff up?


Well, by definition a persistent world exists and changes when you aren't in it. So that means yes, you will miss stuff unless you play 24/7.

I think that's one possible interpretation of what "persistent" means. Yes, it means it exists when you aren't in it. But that doesn't necessarily mean that things change with respect to your play when you aren't around.

Persistence could be something as simple as meaning that enemies don't respawn, and that items stay where you've left them-- the world doesn't reset itself when you leave. This is not an issue in a single-player campaign, because you just save the game world when you shut down, and nothing can change. In a multiplayer world, it's on even when no one is playing.

BUT... that does not mean the game must allow for things that will change your experience while you aren't around.


If the game has Guilds, and there's a Guild House where people meet up before going to play, and half the members are on one side of the world, and half are on the other, so that by going to sleep you're "missing" half of the play-- is this a problem for you? Or is this a feature?

If a player isn't around when his guild goes on an end-game raid, do you consider that he's "missed" it? Isn't that opportunity just going to come around again?

I tend to think these sort of essential experiences will be instanced-- when a new "chapter" drops people will be able to team up and go tackle it any time after it's ready. I don't think you should consider that you "missed" it just because somebody else played it before you while you were doing something else. I don't think it's going to go away because other people played it. And there will probably be other kinds of play to engage in that can be done anytime-- firefight-style coop, deathmatch-style competitive matches, that sort of thing.

This forum is online and persistent, but the new threads that are posted while I'm sleeping-- which is most of them-- are still around for me to read and respond to when I wake up.

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Sorry, but I'm still on the fence.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, February 19, 2013, 19:51 (4055 days ago) @ narcogen


I think that's one possible interpretation of what "persistent" means. Yes, it means it exists when you aren't in it. But that doesn't necessarily mean that things change with respect to your play when you aren't around.

If that were the case, there would literally be no difference between a world that's persistent, and one that is not from the perspective of the player, and thus no reason at all to label it any differently since players would never ever see a difference.


Persistence could be something as simple as meaning that enemies don't respawn, and that items stay where you've left them-- the world doesn't reset itself when you leave. This is not an issue in a single-player campaign, because you just save the game world when you shut down, and nothing can change. In a multiplayer world, it's on even when no one is playing.

You log on, and other player's items are now dropped, and enemies they killed are dead. If only YOUR items stay put and onlyYOUR enemies stay dead, then see my response to your point above.

If the game has Guilds, and there's a Guild House where people meet up before going to play, and half the members are on one side of the world, and half are on the other, so that by going to sleep you're "missing" half of the play-- is this a problem for you? Or is this a feature?

Problem for me. Why I've never been in nor will ever be in a guild.


If a player isn't around when his guild goes on an end-game raid, do you consider that he's "missed" it? Isn't that opportunity just going to come around again?

I don't know.


I tend to think these sort of essential experiences will be instanced-- when a new "chapter" drops people will be able to team up and go tackle it any time after it's ready. I don't think you should consider that you "missed" it just because somebody else played it before you while you were doing something else. I don't think it's going to go away because other people played it. And there will probably be other kinds of play to engage in that can be done anytime-- firefight-style coop, deathmatch-style competitive matches, that sort of thing.

If everything is instanced for you, then again, see my response to the first post. From the perspective of the player, there would be no difference between the world always being there, or it shutting off when he logs off.


This forum is online and persistent, but the new threads that are posted while I'm sleeping-- which is most of them-- are still around for me to read and respond to when I wake up.

This forum isn't a game.

Sorry, but I'm still on the fence.

by yakaman, Tuesday, February 19, 2013, 14:33 (4055 days ago) @ Injunfett

I’m also not very social I have a select few I play games with online and that’s it I have no interested in text alerts or other social features in the game to get me addicted to the game. I mean I have been a member of HBO for years now I check daily read the forums but I never interact that much because like I said I’m not a very social person so social features in a game are not a selling point for me.

This is actually a big concern for me. I loved Skyrim and Fallout because I could slowly, carefully explore and shape my world. It might be a week or two between games because of my life, but it's always there, frozen, until I get back.

How will this go? If I take a few days off will all of the wonder be gone? All of the secrets discovered? All of the missions played and fleshed out and nothing left uncovered? With this ravenous community?

I have hope because Bungie is Bungie, but I have some concerns because when it comes to online community, I'm....well, anti-social. I enjoy reading about others exploits and LANs or whatever, but I have trouble jumping into them myself.

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My understanding

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Tuesday, February 19, 2013, 15:46 (4055 days ago) @ yakaman

I don't have a lot to substantiate my belief, but it seems that the story at least will always be available to play, no matter how long you wait between chapters. Every MMO does this, and although it is NOT an MMO, it seems like an obvious thing to take from MMOs. I could be wrong, but it just seems logical to me.

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My understanding

by stabbim @, Des Moines, IA, USA, Tuesday, February 19, 2013, 18:25 (4055 days ago) @ Xenos

Yeah I find it pretty unlikely that existing story/missions will just disappear. Sales-wise, it would be a colossally stupid way to do things - only the people who bought in near the beginning would be interested in your story - people would have no incentive to buy the game down the road. The only way this wouldn't prove true is if the story is so empty and inconsequential that no one cares to start with. Which isn't really the Bungie Way.

The UI elements we saw in the ViDoc, even if they are placeholder, suggested to me that story chapters would probably be like Spartan Ops episodes in Halo 4 - coming out on a schedule, but still available later.

My understanding

by yakaman, Wednesday, February 20, 2013, 06:21 (4055 days ago) @ stabbim

It is, of course, all in the execution. Because there are RPG elements, I immediately think of exploration and the sense of adventure that accompanies trips into the unknown. I'm very definitely taking a "wait-and-see" approach, and I expect I will be delighted.

Otherwise, I guess, I don't know what to expect. Which is pretty nice for a change.

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