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Urk Talks To IBT (Destiny)

by DaDerga, Baile Átha Cliath, Friday, August 15, 2014, 03:59 (3551 days ago)

[image]

In the past on Halo we had a whiteboard with an airplane on it and we'd draw flames on the back of a plane as we came to the end of the project. And out the back of the plane we'd eject all these features which we didn't have time to make. People would lament, they'd go to the board and be like 'Oh man, here's this thing that I really loved and we're just abandoning it.

With Destiny we wanted to say to ourselves 'let's not do that'. Let's take these plans and incubate that, put it on the backburner, let's give ourselves the ability and flexibility to continue to build and grow and change over time.

Nothing new but worth a look all the same.

Urk Talks To IBT

by kapowaz, Friday, August 15, 2014, 05:24 (3551 days ago) @ DaDerga

This is the one thing that gives me the most hope about Destiny: no matter what they might be doing that I'm not 100% happy with, by delivering a game series that's closer in concept to an MMO they have a lot more freedom to fix it and add new things as they go, iteratively. Iterative software development is by far the best way of delivering lots of features: the old approach of monolithic waterfall delivery is a recipe for disaster, so it's not that surprising that stuff would just get ejected in the desperate push to get the product released on a given date.

So, good news!

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Agreed

by DaDerga, Baile Átha Cliath, Friday, August 15, 2014, 05:42 (3551 days ago) @ kapowaz

Iterative software development is by far the best way of delivering lots of features: the old approach of monolithic waterfall delivery is a recipe for disaster, so it's not that surprising that stuff would just get ejected in the desperate push to get the product released on a given date.

Can't fault that reasoning. Expanding on that, I was also pleased to read only a partially evasive answer here. It's perfectly understandable, however, not to commit to any specific game modes.

IBT: Will we see more unique modes like races or oddball?

EO: "It's definitely something our team is interested in. Step one for us was to get a really competent game up and running, making sure it was meeting our expectations and all the modes players demand from their shooters. In the future who knows, we'll be having a lot of fun and there's plenty of opportunity for us to do new stuff."

Agreed

by kapowaz, Friday, August 15, 2014, 05:59 (3551 days ago) @ DaDerga

IBT: Will we see more unique modes like races or oddball?

EO: "It's definitely something our team is interested in. Step one for us was to get a really competent game up and running, making sure it was meeting our expectations and all the modes players demand from their shooters. In the future who knows, we'll be having a lot of fun and there's plenty of opportunity for us to do new stuff."

DD: “We know Guardians are eager to walk the path on the frontier in new and interesting ways. We're constantly learning and striving to help our intrepid explorers be brave.”

Missing transcript added ;)

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Good Addition :)

by DaDerga, Baile Átha Cliath, Friday, August 15, 2014, 06:23 (3551 days ago) @ kapowaz

- No text -

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Urk...

by car15, Friday, August 15, 2014, 07:07 (3551 days ago) @ DaDerga

Just because a ton of people played the Crucible during the beta doesn't mean reaction wasn't tepid.

EO: "Well it was actually just one mode out of the game, four maps. We did throw Iron Banner out too. To challenge the tepid reaction, I was actually looking at the data earlier today and people played an absolute metric ton of it. We're able to look at player activities, what they play, how many hours they commit to it and the number of people who played it was pretty humbling.

I know he's basically doing PR, so I can forgive his line of "reasoning" here, but I hope he knows that it's a myopic way to judge the quality of the game.

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Urk...

by DaDerga, Baile Átha Cliath, Friday, August 15, 2014, 07:15 (3551 days ago) @ car15

I know he's basically doing PR, so I can forgive his line of "reasoning" here, but I hope he knows that it's a myopic way to judge the quality of the game.

Common sense would suggest so , hopefully that won't be proven false.

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Urk...

by Malagate @, Sea of Tranquility, Friday, August 15, 2014, 07:35 (3551 days ago) @ DaDerga

I know he's basically doing PR, so I can forgive his line of "reasoning" here, but I hope he knows that it's a myopic way to judge the quality of the game.


Common sense would suggest so , hopefully that won't be proven false.

I'm trying to remember back to the Reach beta, but IIRC, we didn't have all of the Armor Abilities available off the break, did we? In H3's beta, equipment was a big deal so we ran the gamut with that, but it seems to me that Destiny in comparison was not in equal proportion with the amount of content up for show during the beta.

I think we have a much different experience waiting for us when all supers and their various upgrades are added into the mix. Also, in a number of ways I think Destiny's aesthetic is streamlined compared to all the particulate and debris swirling around that you get in other modern FPS titles.

Not hard to see why the general reaction might be that PvP is somehow lacking, or simplistic when laid next to AAA peers, but again, we haven't seen all there is on offer.

~m

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Urk...

by car15, Friday, August 15, 2014, 07:45 (3551 days ago) @ Malagate

Of course, it's sensible to reserve final judgment until the game comes out and we can evaluate the whole package, but I would suspect that the beta was representative of the final product. A couple of extra supers won't make much of a difference on the fundamental design philosophy of the Crucible.

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Urk...

by Malagate @, Sea of Tranquility, Friday, August 15, 2014, 08:15 (3551 days ago) @ car15

Of course, it's sensible to reserve final judgment until the game comes out and we can evaluate the whole package, but I would suspect that the beta was representative of the final product. A couple of extra supers won't make much of a difference on the fundamental design philosophy of the Crucible.

Agree, but that design philosophy also hasn't been wholly represented, either. They've been banging on Crucible PvP for months and months with a full complement of gear and supers. That's going to feel way different from running with half the supers, lacking several upgrades, and no exotics in play to speak of.

It would be like playing Goldeneye with the Timed Mines weapon set and nothing else.

~m

(Proximity Mines>*)

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Urk...

by car15, Friday, August 15, 2014, 08:22 (3551 days ago) @ Malagate

Possibly. From what I've read, though, one of the major complaints about the Crucible is that it's too fast and too rock-paper-scissors as opposed to Halo's methodical strategy-based combat. (Again, I'm not making any personal comments on the quality of the game, merely repeating what I have read.) I don't think that will change much with the addition of more supers.

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Urk...

by DaDerga, Baile Átha Cliath, Friday, August 15, 2014, 07:47 (3551 days ago) @ Malagate

I think we have a much different experience waiting for us when all supers and their various upgrades are added into the mix. Also, in a number of ways I think Destiny's aesthetic is streamlined compared to all the particulate and debris swirling around that you get in other modern FPS titles.

Not hard to see why the general reaction might be that PvP is somehow lacking, or simplistic when laid next to AAA peers, but again, we haven't seen all there is on offer.

I don't think that can be stressed enough. Soon™.

This.

by yakaman, Saturday, August 16, 2014, 07:27 (3550 days ago) @ Malagate

- No text -

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Urk...

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Friday, August 15, 2014, 07:56 (3551 days ago) @ car15

Just because a ton of people played the Crucible during the beta doesn't mean reaction wasn't tepid.

EO: "Well it was actually just one mode out of the game, four maps. We did throw Iron Banner out too. To challenge the tepid reaction, I was actually looking at the data earlier today and people played an absolute metric ton of it. We're able to look at player activities, what they play, how many hours they commit to it and the number of people who played it was pretty humbling.

I know he's basically doing PR, so I can forgive his line of "reasoning" here, but I hope he knows that it's a myopic way to judge the quality of the game.

Tepid reaction by whom? The guy asking the question? Gotta love the passive voice way of denying any agency.

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Urk...

by car15, Friday, August 15, 2014, 08:03 (3551 days ago) @ Kermit

Jesus. I didn't say anything regarding the quality of the game, only the manner in which Urk chose to evaluate the quality of the game.

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Urk...

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Saturday, August 16, 2014, 10:23 (3550 days ago) @ car15

Jesus. I didn't say anything regarding the quality of the game, only the manner in which Urk chose to evaluate the quality of the game.

Jesus. I wasn't really talking about you. I was talking about the premise assumed in the question Urk was answering. Although it should be said that you seem to accept the premise.

Urk...

by Claude Errera @, Friday, August 15, 2014, 08:42 (3551 days ago) @ car15

Just because a ton of people played the Crucible during the beta doesn't mean reaction wasn't tepid.

EO: "Well it was actually just one mode out of the game, four maps. We did throw Iron Banner out too. To challenge the tepid reaction, I was actually looking at the data earlier today and people played an absolute metric ton of it. We're able to look at player activities, what they play, how many hours they commit to it and the number of people who played it was pretty humbling.

I know he's basically doing PR, so I can forgive his line of "reasoning" here, but I hope he knows that it's a myopic way to judge the quality of the game.

Hmm. I'd guess he was focusing more on the number of hours played PER PERSON, not just the numbers who jumped in. And while it's true that you could play 16 hours a day for a week and then come away and say "meh" (and some people on this very forum did exactly that)... it's sort of hard to accept the words over the actions.

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Urk...

by Yapok @, Friday, August 15, 2014, 08:48 (3551 days ago) @ Claude Errera

Hmm. I'd guess he was focusing more on the number of hours played PER PERSON, not just the numbers who jumped in. And while it's true that you could play 16 hours a day for a week and then come away and say "meh" (and some people on this very forum did exactly that)... it's sort of hard to accept the words over the actions.

Indeed. While I do have some complaints, the many hours I put into crucible tells me I enjoyed it overall. Overall enjoyment is probably what Bungie is most concerned with in order to get as many people as possible enjoying the game.

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Urk Talks To IBT

by Durandal, Friday, August 15, 2014, 14:03 (3551 days ago) @ DaDerga

The takeaway I had from this is that they retained enough design flexibility to add significant features to the game. Unlike the Mass Effect DLC which really just added different combinations of preexisting abilities, Bungie could in theory add Ship combat, additional classes or new game types, like a classic firefight style encounter.

Also, I really want a warthog to tool around mars in.

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Urk Talks To IBT

by DaDerga, Baile Átha Cliath, Friday, August 15, 2014, 15:23 (3551 days ago) @ Durandal

Bungie could in theory add Ship combat, additional classes or new game types, like a classic firefight style encounter.

Also, I really want a warthog to tool around mars in.

That's how I read it as well. Imagine how exponentially better the game would become with the staggered addition of features like that, not that it isn't great already. Also, bouncy wheeled vehicles, 'nuff said.

Urk Talks To IBT

by Decom @, Friday, August 15, 2014, 14:38 (3551 days ago) @ DaDerga

In the past on Halo we had a whiteboard with an airplane on it and we'd draw flames on the back of a plane as we came to the end of the project. And out the back of the plane we'd eject all these features which we didn't have time to make. People would lament, they'd go to the board and be like 'Oh man, here's this thing that I really loved and we're just abandoning it.

With Destiny we wanted to say to ourselves 'let's not do that'. Let's take these plans and incubate that, put it on the backburner, let's give ourselves the ability and flexibility to continue to build and grow and change over time.

Ah, that explains why Destiny has such a great theater/recorder mode.

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Urk Talks To IBT

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Friday, August 15, 2014, 14:44 (3551 days ago) @ Decom
edited by Xenos, Friday, August 15, 2014, 14:59

With Destiny we wanted to say to ourselves 'let's not do that'. Let's take these plans and incubate that, put it on the backburner, let's give ourselves the ability and flexibility to continue to build and grow and change over time.


Ah, that explains why Destiny has such a great theater/recorder mode.

Your statement actually goes against what he's saying. He is NOT saying that they were aiming to include in Destiny ALL of the features they wanted to put in Destiny. From the statement said by Urk it is very possible that theater mode is "on the backburner." Their goal was actually to be able to build and grow the game over time, unlike Halo games where once the feature-set was out the door, that was it.

Urk Talks To IBT

by Decom @, Saturday, August 16, 2014, 09:51 (3550 days ago) @ Xenos

I took the quote to mean within the context of the development process. Perhaps I was mistaken but, at best, it's somewhat ambiguous.

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Urk Talks To IBT

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Saturday, August 16, 2014, 09:59 (3550 days ago) @ Decom
edited by Xenos, Saturday, August 16, 2014, 10:08

I took the quote to mean within the context of the development process. Perhaps I was mistaken but, at best, it's somewhat ambiguous.

If you take it in the context in the article they basically say instead of at the end of the development cycle let's lament the thing we cut (which is what they are talking about with the flaming airplane), why don't we, at the end of the development cycle, put them on the backburner and then continue to add things after the release of the game. They don't need the flaming airplane, not because they DID add all the things they want, but because they can continue working on the things they didn't get in before the game released.

I mean, how does it even make sense in the context of the development process? You ALWAYS have the freedom to keeping building and growing the game during the development process, that's the whole point.

Urk Talks To IBT

by Decom @, Saturday, August 16, 2014, 11:12 (3550 days ago) @ Xenos

If you take it in the context in the article they basically say instead of at the end of the development cycle let's lament the thing we cut (which is what they are talking about with the flaming airplane), why don't we, at the end of the development cycle, put them on the backburner and then continue to add things after the release of the game. They don't need the flaming airplane, not because they DID add all the things they want, but because they can continue working on the things they didn't get in before the game released.

I mean, how does it even make sense in the context of the development process? You ALWAYS have the freedom to keeping building and growing the game during the development process, that's the whole point.

How does it even make sense NOT in the context of the development process? If you put something on the backburner, you're saying it's still being tracked and will be given more attention before you're done. Once you're done, it either got included or it got tossed.

With the quote in the article they're saying, "we're releasing the first installment of Destiny in the middle of our development process (which we announced will last another 10 years). So we totally aren't cutting features, guys, we're just not putting them in until we can charge you another $60/$100/$150 for it."

I understand that they have to have some sort of deadline, otherwise they'd run out of money before releasing something. But it irks me that they act like they're not cutting features because they might be added later, in a separate product, for an additional price.

Put another way, I obviously don't like the fact that some features aren't going to make it into the game but it's still understandable. However, I greatly dislike that they're trying to spin it as a good thing instead of just tolerable.

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Urk Talks To IBT

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Saturday, August 16, 2014, 11:22 (3550 days ago) @ Decom
edited by Xenos, Saturday, August 16, 2014, 11:26

Put another way, I obviously don't like the fact that some features aren't going to make it into the game but it's still understandable. However, I greatly dislike that they're trying to spin it as a good thing instead of just tolerable.

See but you're acting like they aren't including features that were in some way promised to be in Destiny, just because it was in a past Bungie game does not require them to include them in a future game. There's not theater mode, it's true, but are we somehow entitled to theater mode in every single Bungie game that's released after Halo 3? Of course not. You act like they are spinning it to sound like promised features MAY be added later, instead of what they are saying which is they left it open so they can make massive changes when we want to or need to. Those are two VERY different things they are saying.

P.S. Also you are assuming in your statement that you'll have to pay for them, which we have no way of saying is true, I am sure SOME things will be paid for in expansions of course, but just because some are does not mean that there won't be free major updates made to the game.

Urk Talks To IBT

by Decom @, Saturday, August 16, 2014, 11:53 (3550 days ago) @ Xenos

See but you're acting like they aren't including features that were in some way promised to be in Destiny, just because it was in a past Bungie game does not require them to include them in a future game. There's not theater mode, it's true, but are we somehow entitled to theater mode in every single Bungie game that's released after Halo 3? Of course not.

I wasn't basing this on the fact that it was in Halo 3. I was basing it on being an "airplane". That is, a feature that's cool and definitely nice to have. I already said I can understand if this feature, or any other feature, doesn't make it into the game. So I don't quite see how you think I felt it was promised in any way.

You act like they are spinning it to sound like promised features MAY be added later, instead of what they are saying which is they left it open so they can make massive changes when we want to or need to. Those are two VERY different things they are saying.

How are these things different, let alone VERY different? You're saying they have an ability to add more content and I was saying they might add more content.

Ultimately, I think this is bad PR and you think it's good PR. We're both just speculating on what the reality will be based on a few sentences from a magazine article.

P.S. Also you are assuming in your statement that you'll have to pay for them, which we have no way of saying is true, I am sure SOME things will be paid for in expansions of course, but just because some are does not mean that there won't be free major updates made to the game.

Fair enough. I was making this assumption because of Activision's involvement, not Bungie's, if that makes any difference.

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Urk Talks To IBT

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Saturday, August 16, 2014, 12:09 (3550 days ago) @ Decom

Ultimately, I think this is bad PR and you think it's good PR. We're both just speculating on what the reality will be based on a few sentences from a magazine article.

I can't argue with you there, but I am baffled as to why you think they ability to add content to a game advertised as always online and ever changing is a bad thing.

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Urk Talks To IBT

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Saturday, August 16, 2014, 12:13 (3550 days ago) @ Xenos

Ultimately, I think this is bad PR and you think it's good PR. We're both just speculating on what the reality will be based on a few sentences from a magazine article.


I can't argue with you there, but I am baffled as to why you think they ability to add content to a game advertised as always online and ever changing is a bad thing.

Yeah. They're saying they've planned from the start to have hooks that will allow more significant updates as they go. That's the difference from the past. I'm also incredulous as to how that's bad PR.

Urk Talks To IBT

by Decom @, Saturday, August 16, 2014, 12:52 (3550 days ago) @ Kermit

Yeah. They're saying they've planned from the start to have hooks that will allow more significant updates as they go.

I seem to have missed that. If that really is the case, then I guess it changes my interpretation of the quote in the article and I can see where you guys are coming from.

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Urk Talks To IBT

by General Vagueness @, The Vault of Sass, Tuesday, August 19, 2014, 11:40 (3547 days ago) @ Decom

In the past on Halo we had a whiteboard with an airplane on it and we'd draw flames on the back of a plane as we came to the end of the project. And out the back of the plane we'd eject all these features which we didn't have time to make. People would lament, they'd go to the board and be like 'Oh man, here's this thing that I really loved and we're just abandoning it.

With Destiny we wanted to say to ourselves 'let's not do that'. Let's take these plans and incubate that, put it on the backburner, let's give ourselves the ability and flexibility to continue to build and grow and change over time.


Ah, that explains why Destiny has such a great theater/recorder mode.

I laughed, hard.
(You should have stopped here.)

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