Weapon Metagame/Tips from a Spreadsheeter (Destiny)

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Monday, October 06, 2014, 07:49 (3504 days ago)

A Little Intro
Some of you may have noticed I've been promising to upload a spreadsheet of weapon stats and such Soon(TM). You will also have noticed it hasn't materialised yet. Sorry about that, it's proving difficult to gather all the data I want. I'm thinking once I've gathered all the Common/Uncommon data I'll make it available and update it as I go. For now, here's a sampe screenshot, so you know what to expect:

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It's based on SteelGaribaldi's Companion's Little Helper, but with some modifications to include actual damage, RoF in seconds, Reload Speed in seconds, etc. Also included are separate DpS and DpM stats, as they're both useful in different circumstances (DpS for PvP, DpM for PvE).

Anyway, that's just to show y'all what I'm working on. On to the good stuff:


Weapon Tips & Metagame

While I'm nowhere near done with the spreadsheet (thanks in part to the fact that I've only had a single Legendary drop so far. Thanks RNG/Cryptarch), I've managed to make some good observations on each of the weapon classes, and the most important/useful stats. This might come a bit late for some of you, but hopefully it'll help someone.

Today I'll go over some what I've learnt and how it can be applied for PvP, and I'll cover PvE once you've all recovered from this disgusting wall of text.

PvP - Weapons

First and foremost, the most important stat for PvP is Damage per Second (DpS), because you want to be laying down as much damage as possible on an enemy, killing them before they kill you. I've been calculating this as the number of shots fired per second (Rate of Fire) multiplied by the damage dealt in The Crucible per shot. It does not take into account Reload Speed, as you should be ready with a full clip, or fleeing to reload, rather than reloading mid-firefight.

The most important thing I cant tell you about PvP is that all weapons within a single class have roughly the same DpS. They may vary slightly, but not by a lot.

This means that Rate of Fire and Impact are down to personal preference, and are relatively unimportant. Which means you should be looking at the other stats when searching for your preferred weapon.

Auto Rifles have the greatest DpS of any of the primary weapon classes, ranging from 160-165. Presumably the offset was intended to be range and stability. This hasn't worked out as Bungie planned it evidently, hence the nerf they're about to receive. Go for the highest Stability AR you can - a Shingen is a good low-level choice, or a fully upgraded Shadow Price if you're looking for a Legendary.

As you might imagine, the best upgrades for Auto Rifles are Counterbalance or Perfect Balance

Handcannons have the second-best DpS, and also the greatest DpS variance (119-131), with the low-RoF, 93-Impact Searcher Mk. 20 faring the worst. If you're able to routinely get two headshots in a row, this may be worth the tradeoff, but otherwise stick with a faster, weaker model.

Like with ARs, Stability and Range tend to suffer on Handcannons, so pick your most stable Handcannon for your soujourns into the Crucible.

Pulse Rifles and Scout Rifles come in last (115-126 and 115-117, respectively), with the trade-off of superior long-range viability. At range, a Pulse or Scout Rifle should outmatch an AR (in theory) thanks to superior Stability and Range.

Of the two, Pulse Rifles have the greater Stability, but sustained headshots are typically easier with Scout Rifles than with the recoil-climb found on Pulse Rifles.

And Don't Forget - Scout Rifles are getting a damage buff soon

Most Sniper Rifles vary very little in damage, running from 200.09-201 DpS, though super-heavy varieties (Gozen-C, Candace-B etc.) run as low as 180.

This might seem like a big difference, but barring additional shielding, all Sniper Rifles will kill with a single headshot, or 2 bodyshots. Instead, focus on RoF and/or Stability to ensure that you can make a second shot if you need to.

Shotguns are the exception to the rule, in that they have a very large DpS variance (100!), but like Snipers are all capable of a 1HK regardless of DpS.

A higher Range stat will let you do that from much further away, making Range the most important shotgun stat, followed (IMO) by RoF, then Stability. If you prefer the high RoF models of shotgun like the Invective, Graviton or Chasma, you may prefer to favour stability over range - your call.

CAVEAT - Being closer to the target will still deal more damage, as more individual pellets (all shotguns tested so far fire 12) are able to hit and deal damage.

Fusions Rifles vary up to 10 DpS, but like shotguns, all seem capable of taking out an opponent in one hit. You may find they feel less consistent though, due to the difficulty of actually hitting the target with all 7 projectiles fired from a single charge.

Stability seems to also affect the spread of the projectiles, while range affects the speed at which they travel, helping to hit a distant/fast target.

Machine Guns are much like Auto Rifles in that Stability is your best friend. Ranging from 290-300 DpS, they can take out a target in under a second, if you can hit that taget. Because of the lack of significant stability upgrades on LMGs (more on upgrades later), a low-RoF/high Impact variety is preferred.

LMGs are unique in that, with the Aggressive Ballistics barrel upgrade you can see a significant DpS spike on a high-RoF LMG (larger than the same upgrade on a low-RoF variety) at the cost of some of your stability. On the LMG tested, I saw a 30+% DpS increase!

Rocker Launchers are fairly simple in that they have no Impact stat. All Launchers tested deal 328 damage on a direct hit - enough to kill anything in one. A larger blast radius will help make sure you get that kill, while a higher velocity will let you tag more distant targets.

My personal preference is a larger Blast, as there are usually better long-range than a rocket. Alternatively, you may prefer a Launcher that carries a 2 round magazine for faster firing at the cost of Blast and Velocity.

For the best of both worlds, find a Launcher with a high Blast stat and the Tripod upgrade. Not only does it allow for faster firing, but you also get an extra Rocket per Heavy Ammo pickup in the Crucible! Couple that with Lucky Raspberry, and you'll be rolling in rockets.


PvP - Sight and Barrel Upgrades

You'll notice a theme here - Stability is King

If DpS is the same within your chosen class of weapon, the most important factor in outshooting your opponent is making sure you hit them with as many rounds as possible. Obviously a lot of that depends on you natural FPS ability, but why make it any harder than it needs to be?

Auto Rifles
Your absolute best bet for Stability is the Red Dot-OAS. It gives you a hefty Stability boost, and doesn't reduce any of your weapon's base stats.

If you have a real hankering for a long-range AR, try the Red Dot-ORES or Red Dor-ORS1. Don't be tempted by the Ranged Lens RLR5 - it has the best Range, but reduces your Stability, Reload Speed and Handling below their base level.

Handcannons
Handcannons have little choice in the way of sights, but all that really means is there's a greater chance of getting the one you want - the Steadyhand IS.

The Quickdraw IS is also tempting for it's Reload Speed buff, but it will only knock 0.23 seconds off your reload, so Your Mileage May Vary.

Pulse Rifles
For Stability, the Red Dot-OAS is your best option. Due to the high DpS of ARs, it may be a better option to buff your Range with the Focus Lens FLA5 and keep your distance, especially after the upcoming AR Range nerf. For some reason, the FLA5 isn't available on Rare (Blue) Pulse Rifles, so you'll have to get your range from the Red Dot-ORS1

The Red Dot-ORES is a convenient halfway point between the two, giving you a small buff to both Stability and Range.

Scout Rifles
The Red Dot-OAS will give you a nice buff to Stability, but unfortunately isn't available on Rare (Blue) Scout Rifles, so you'll want the Red Dot-OES instead.

Like Pulse Rifles, you may find you benefit from keeping your distance from ARs and picking a Focus Lens FLA5 or Red Dot-ORS1 for Range.

Again, the Red Dot-ORES is a good fence-sitter.

Fusion Rifles
Stability is even more useful in Fusion Rifles, as it seems to affect the spread of the projectiles. A tighter spread gives you a better chance of hitting and dealing damage with all 7 of them. The Red Dot-OAS is your best friend for Stability, but you'll need the Red Dot-OES on Legendary (Purple) Fusion Rifles, as the OAS is not available.

It's worth remembering that an increased Range will give your Fusion Rifle faster bullets, making the Red Dot-ORS1 a potential choice for Uncommons or Rares that already have high Stability stat, or the Focus Lens FLA5 for Legenadaries.

Sniper Rifles
Sniper Rifles are interesting in that a high-zoom scope such as the EagleEye SLR20 can make it much easier to get a hit on your tagert - the target will occupy more space on your screen, giving you a larger area to hit.

Alternatively, if you prefer shorter-range sniping, or are confident in your abilities to hit a smaller target, Stability is your best bet (again! Are you seeing the pattern yet?). The Ambush SLH10 will give you a great boost to Stability, but at a cost to long-range Damage (perfect for small-map sniping), while the SightsSys SLS20 will cover all your bases, and is my personal recommendation for long-range sniping.

Shotguns
Shotgun (and LMG) upgrades are different from those of the other weapons in that they can affect the actual Damage dealt by the weapon. In shotguns this is relatively insignificant, as all Shotguns are capable of a one hit kill. Instead, you should focus on Range with Field Chokefor most shotguns.

For high-RoF Shotguns such as a Graviton or Chasma (especially with the Full Auto upgrade), I suggest Soft Ballistics. This will lower Impact, which seems counterintuitive, but the faster shotgun varieties are less likely to get the 1HK unless you're point blank, and the added stability will help you hit your mark with the second shot.

Machine Guns
As mentioned earlier, Machine Guns come in two flavours. Slow-RoF/high-Impact, or harder-to-aim high-RoF/low-Impact. In general, the low-RoF variant is more reliable, as the increased stability keeps you on target and prevents ammo wastage. For these models, Smooth Ballistics or CQB Ballistics will buff your Stability at the cost of Range.

The faster variant is typically harder to keep on target, but has the potential for a far higher DpS when coupled with Aggressive Ballistics. For example, the Genghis-E climbs from 25 Impact to 29 - increasing the DpS by 135! This does come with the cost of making the weapon even less stable, and even shorter ranged, but may be worth it depending on your playstyle.

Rocket Launchers
Unfortunately I've collected limited data on Launch upgrades. I'll update as soon as I know more, but essentially Stability is useless for Launchers - stick with Blast Radius and Velocity (in that order). And Tripod. Seriously, Tripod is your friend.

A Little Outro
If you made it this far, well done. Seriously. That's a lot of text. And if you read all that and didn't learn anything, I'm super sorry for wasting your time. Hopefully there's enough in there that everyone can get at least something out of it.

I'll be back eventually with a breakdown of the other weapon upgrades available, as well as doing the same thing for PvE. I'll probably jot down some fun Defender builds too at some point, because I'm thoroughly enjoying my Orbmaker and Tank builds.

Tl;Dr

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Monday, October 06, 2014, 07:49 (3504 days ago) @ someotherguy

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Holy cow, that was amazing

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Monday, October 06, 2014, 08:39 (3504 days ago) @ someotherguy

I cannot thank you enough for all this analysis. It confirms some of my suspicions (weapons within the same class are pretty much balanced, overall) and gives some straight-up fundamental advice.

I'd like to suggest video gathering from the PS4 and Xbone folks to help you check out the legendaries and exotics, since the RNG can be quite brutal.

Great work, man. Don't worry about taking too long. You already did a LOT more than I'd expect in under a month of launch.

Exotics & Legendaries: An open invitation

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Monday, October 06, 2014, 09:06 (3504 days ago) @ ZackDark

I'd like to suggest video gathering from the PS4 and Xbone folks to help you check out the legendaries and exotics, since the RNG can be quite brutal.

That's a really good point actually. If anyone is willing to help there's something you can do for me: Tell me how much damage your Legendary or Exotics are doing in the Crucible (body shots only please).

If it's an AR, PR, Handcannon, SR, Sniper or Fusion Rifle - just whatever number pops up (per projectile/pellet on Fusion Rifles please)

If it's a Shotgun or Machine Gun, I need you to have CQB Ballistics, Smart Drift Control or Smooth Ballistics equipped (I'm only taking base weapon stats, and all the other barrels modify Impact).

This would be super useful, if only because I wouldn't have to field-test every weapon manually. It can be a real drag, especially Scout Rifles. I'm no good at Scout Rifles.

If people would be interested in making this a group project, there's some other stuff that can be done, but it's all a bit detailed (requires specific sight/barrel/scope upgrades, gathering data from B.net and recording RoF and reload speed in a specific way so I can count the reload frames), so I'll wait and see what the reaction is before writing it all up.

Thankyou (Y)

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Monday, October 06, 2014, 09:19 (3504 days ago) @ ZackDark

I cannot thank you enough for all this analysis. It confirms some of my suspicions (weapons within the same class are pretty much balanced, overall) and gives some straight-up fundamental advice.

Great work, man. Don't worry about taking too long. You already did a LOT more than I'd expect in under a month of launch.

Thanks, it's been kind of like a second job these last couple of weeks. Not complaining, it's been good. Just long. It's good to get it out of my brain and on to paper, so to speak. Was staring to worry someone would beat me to the punch haha


The PvE stuff used some pretty ugly nesting brackets, but I'm pretty happy with the results. You'll see that soon enough. Quick protip though: Reload speed means very little in PvP, but Magazine Size and Reload speed are the most important things for maximum Pve DpM (after Atk, obviously).

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Excellent info, looking forward to more

by Yapok @, Monday, October 06, 2014, 08:42 (3504 days ago) @ someotherguy

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Weapon Metagame/Tips from a Spreadsheeter

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Monday, October 06, 2014, 08:49 (3504 days ago) @ someotherguy

Good stuff.

On rocket launchers you're probably right that tripod is the way to go but I absolutely love the tracking upgrades. Watching your rocket arc as it chases down and kills a Pike? Nothing like it!

On the Defender Titan I hope you got this week's exotic helmet. The blinding effect on Ward of Dawn works very well in PVP and PvE.

Weapon Metagame/Tips from a Spreadsheeter

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Monday, October 06, 2014, 09:20 (3504 days ago) @ Ragashingo

I actually decided not to. I prefer to play Striker in PvP (I don't remember the last time I shot somebody. Shoulder charge forever!), and in my experience everything that comes near my bubbble in PvE is dead anyway, so I don't care if they can see me or not ^_^

EDIT: In hindsight though, probably would be helpful for the Vault/Nightfall.

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Very cool work, thank you!

by SonofMacPhisto @, Monday, October 06, 2014, 09:03 (3504 days ago) @ someotherguy

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Thank you!

by bluerunner @, Music City, Monday, October 06, 2014, 10:48 (3504 days ago) @ someotherguy

I'm branching out from my beloved hand cannons and this is a big help. I just started playing with scout rifles this weekend and wasn't sure what to look for. I see now why they're getting a buff though. They need it.

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That was great! Rock on dude!

by Blackt1g3r @, Login is from an untrusted domain in MN, Monday, October 06, 2014, 10:56 (3504 days ago) @ someotherguy

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Fusion Rifle Addendum

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Monday, October 06, 2014, 11:10 (3504 days ago) @ someotherguy

I should have made it clearer, but since all Fusion Rifles seem capable of a 1 Hit Kill, you may want to favour high charge speed over the slower, stronger weapons.

Of course, you're more likely to still get the kill even if you miss with some of the pellets/projectiles with a stronger, slower Fusion Rifle, so (as always) Your Mileage May Vary.

You can also absolutely increase a Fusion Rifle DpS, as they're the only weapon with an upgrade that lets you increase the RoF (or technically, the Charge Speed, but since they're tied into each other...). I can't remember the name of the upgrade, but I think it's called "Charged Coils" or something.

Weapon Metagame/Tips from a Spreadsheeter

by CaneCutter @, Alabama, Monday, October 06, 2014, 11:21 (3504 days ago) @ someotherguy

Excellent job! Thanks for doing this!

- CC

Beautiful beautiful work, good sir!

by The Woaf, Portsmouth, UK, Monday, October 06, 2014, 11:38 (3504 days ago) @ someotherguy

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Rocket Launchers

by Kahzgul, Tuesday, October 07, 2014, 14:48 (3503 days ago) @ someotherguy

Awesome post! Thank you so much!

Since you seem to have questions about rockets, and I've done - shall we say - extensive rocket research, I'll post my opinions here:

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The mods I like for rockets are thus:

#1 - Detonates early based on proximity. This lets you fire down a hallway and kill anyone in that hallway. No need to aim at the floor or hit the guy. It kills people hiding around corners and is equally effective with fast or slow rockets. I've tried all of the mods for rocket launchers and this one takes the cake, hands down. I'd rather have a green with this mod in the crucible than any possible purple combination that doesn't have this mod.

#2 - Tracks target. Good for long range rocketry, not as helpful close up (because it's not like you were going to miss, amirite?). Generally guarantees a kill, especially in the open field or against a fleeing vehicle. Not good if your target dodges around a corner (the rocket tends to veer into the wall rather than go around it).

#3 - Cluster bomb. Especially effective in Control mode, the cluster bomb basically doubles the blast radius of your rocket by having several large, secondary explosions. It's basically just more forgiving than a normal rocket as far as aim is concerned, and you're more likely to get multi-kills if people are close-ish together. One note: The cluster area is HUGE, so you can sacrifice blast radius for projectile speed on your other options if you know you'll be using clusters.

#4 - Javelin. If you can't find a rocket with the above 3 mods, Javelin partially makes up for it with sheer velocity.

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In the case of all rockets that do not have cluster bomb as an option, choose the highest blast radius that you can on your other mods.

in the case of cluster bomb, choose speed over blast radius.

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The following rocket mods are basically worthless and should be avoided:
- Aims quickly
- Switch weapons quickly
- low recoil

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One last note: Rockets take a long time to reload. As a result, 2-warhead capacity rockets are dramatically more practical than single warhead launchers. I'd still take "detonates early based on proximity" on a single-shot tube over any other 2-shot tube, but in all other cases, the 2-shotter is going to be better.

If you're lucky, like I was, you'll get something like my Steel Oracle: holds 2 shots, detonates early, radar remains active while aiming. Mmmmmm.

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Rocket Launchers

by squidnh3, Tuesday, October 07, 2014, 16:31 (3502 days ago) @ Kahzgul

One last note: Rockets take a long time to reload. As a result, 2-warhead capacity rockets are dramatically more practical than single warhead launchers. I'd still take "detonates early based on proximity" on a single-shot tube over any other 2-shot tube, but in all other cases, the 2-shotter is going to be better.

I just got a Rare Despot SA/5 with this perk and a 2-shot tube, and it's ridiculously useful. As a historically terrible rocketeer, it has already given me 5 or 6 Crucible kills I never would have otherwise gotten.

Thanks!

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Wednesday, October 08, 2014, 03:19 (3502 days ago) @ Kahzgul

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Thanks for this!

by petetheduck, Tuesday, October 07, 2014, 14:54 (3503 days ago) @ someotherguy

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Excellent info

by RC ⌂, UK, Wednesday, October 08, 2014, 10:47 (3502 days ago) @ someotherguy

Good to know, thanks :)

Hotfix Update

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Wednesday, October 15, 2014, 08:31 (3495 days ago) @ someotherguy

Sorry to necropost this, but I just wanted to post a quick post-Hotfix update.

It looks like a lot more than just ARs, Scout Rifles and Shotguns have been changed by the latest patch/hotfix. At least 50% of my data gathered so far is now incorrect. Only by small margins in most cases, but enough that I wouldn't want to publish it as is. I'd like to say I'm happy to do it all again, but it could be wrecked by another hotfix at any point.

Not that I'm complaining really. I should have seen this coming. It's a not-MMO, after all. But I'm just not happy spending all those hours on the project a second time if it might fall apart again at a moment's notice.

That all said, all of my above tips are still true. Scout Rifle DpS has increased to the 123 region, and ARs are less useful at range now, but the rest is still true.

I'm also still going to post my PvE tips/metagame at some point in the future. I gathered all the data I actually needed a while ago, and was really only continuing with the spreadsheet for the sake of completion.

Honestly, I'm kind of glad. The data-gathering portion was nowhere near as fulfilling after the 15th-20th hour as the "writing it up so people could benefit" portion.


- - Lichtonatus / someotherguy

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Hotfix Update

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Wednesday, October 15, 2014, 11:24 (3495 days ago) @ someotherguy

That all said, all of my above tips are still true. Scout Rifle DpS has increased to the 123 region, and ARs are less useful at range now, but the rest is still true.

I would totally be fine with simple updates like this in the future. Numbers are great, but the most part I just need the basics.

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+1

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Wednesday, October 15, 2014, 18:00 (3494 days ago) @ Xenos

I know you are doing good research, as opposed to simply giving opinions, so I'd be totally fine with this.

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