Interesting note on Fusion Rifles (Destiny)

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Tuesday, October 21, 2014, 14:00 (3446 days ago)

Just thought I'd pop in and share an observation on Fusion Rifles that I've made since my previous post

1st: Fusion Rifle Damage is directly affected by charge time. The upgrade that shortens charge time decreases damage.

2nd: That upgrade does not affect Impact, only Damage. Given that, and the fact I have FRs with higher Impact that deal less damage (Dammerung FR5, for example), Im going to say I dont think Impact relates to Damage the same way in Fusion Rifles as it does in other weapons. They might not be directly linked at all.

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You're wonderful

by iconicbanana, C2-H5-OH + NAD, Portland, OR, Tuesday, October 21, 2014, 14:03 (3446 days ago) @ someotherguy

1st: Fusion Rifle Damage is directly affected by charge time. The upgrade that shortens charge time decreases damage.

Definitely felt like the Pocket Infinity I have hits harder than my Wizard, based on a single shot. Goodness you're helpful!

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Interesting note on Fusion Rifles

by Blackt1g3r @, Login is from an untrusted domain in MN, Tuesday, October 21, 2014, 14:10 (3446 days ago) @ someotherguy

Interesting. Perhaps both impact and charge time affect damage? Perhaps there is a sweet spot where you can get a short charge time that gets kills reliably?

Interesting note on Fusion Rifles

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Tuesday, October 21, 2014, 14:20 (3446 days ago) @ Blackt1g3r

Interesting. Perhaps both impact and charge time affect damage? Perhaps there is a sweet spot where you can get a short charge time that gets kills reliably?

Good point, it could totally be some combination of the two.

In my experience, you can get a kill with one shot from any FR, but obviously if you're bad at Fusion Rifles like me your odds are better at either close range or with more damage.

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Interesting note on Fusion Rifles

by iconicbanana, C2-H5-OH + NAD, Portland, OR, Tuesday, October 21, 2014, 14:27 (3446 days ago) @ someotherguy

Did your observations primarily come from either PvP or PvE? Considering there seems to be a certain amount of stat-leveling in the crucible, it could follow that observations from vP or vE might render different results.

Interesting note on Fusion Rifles

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Tuesday, October 21, 2014, 15:56 (3445 days ago) @ iconicbanana

My RoF and Reload Speed data comes from PvE. All damage values had to come from PvP, as there's too many variables to get a clean read.

Attack value, for example, means that a green and a blue with the same Impact could deal different damage. Same goes for character level. Unless I could guarantee all weapons had the sane attack, and that I would stay the same level throughout the process, I felt PvE results wouldn't be reliable. At least for my sweeping understandings of each weapon type.

That said, the Charge Speed/Damage thing is also true in PvE. Just tested it. Dammerung 5 dropped from 75 to 70, Nox Revus IV went from 86 to 77.

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Interesting note on Fusion Rifles

by iconicbanana, C2-H5-OH + NAD, Portland, OR, Tuesday, October 21, 2014, 15:58 (3445 days ago) @ someotherguy

My RoF and Reload Speed data comes from PvE. All damage values had to come from PvP, as there's too many variables to get a clean read.

Attack value, for example, means that a green and a blue with the same Impact could deal different damage. Same goes for character level. Unless I could guarantee all weapons had the sane attack, and that I would stay the same level throughout the process, I felt PvE results wouldn't be reliable. At least for my sweeping understandings of each weapon type.

That said, the Charge Speed/Damage thing is also true in PvE. Just tested it. Dammerung 5 dropped from 75 to 70, Nox Revus IV went from 86 to 77.

I want to buy you a pint but there is absolutely no way for me to do it. God's work sir. God's work.

It's the thought that counts.

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Tuesday, October 21, 2014, 17:09 (3445 days ago) @ iconicbanana

Not a problem - I'll just have a beer and pretend you bought me it lmao

But seriously, just glad people are finding me useful.

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What about Plan C?

by SonofMacPhisto @, Wednesday, October 22, 2014, 10:49 (3445 days ago) @ someotherguy

One signature upgrade is faster charge time after switching to it. Will that affect damage similarly? Haven't unlocked that yet.

Right now I'm using the normal charge upgrade, and it felt like it wasn't killing as reliably. Wondering if the range upgrade will be more useful, as when I use it I want to make sure it's knocking crap down.

Furthermore, does Plan C have more range than other FRs? Seems to be a feature of it, especially with that nice scope.

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What about Plan C?

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Wednesday, October 22, 2014, 11:16 (3445 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto

One signature upgrade is faster charge time after switching to it. Will that affect damage similarly? Haven't unlocked that yet.


I can attest that it does not. At least when the perk is active compared to when you use it after the perk has expired.

Right now I'm using the normal charge upgrade, and it felt like it wasn't killing as reliably. Wondering if the range upgrade will be more useful, as when I use it I want to make sure it's knocking crap down.

Furthermore, does Plan C have more range than other FRs? Seems to be a feature of it, especially with that nice scope.

It does have great range, though I don't know if there are FRs with more.

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What about Plan C?

by SonofMacPhisto @, Wednesday, October 22, 2014, 12:05 (3445 days ago) @ Xenos

One signature upgrade is faster charge time after switching to it. Will that affect damage similarly? Haven't unlocked that yet.


I can attest that it does not. At least when the perk is active compared to when you use it after the perk has expired.

Cool, thanks!

Right now I'm using the normal charge upgrade, and it felt like it wasn't killing as reliably. Wondering if the range upgrade will be more useful, as when I use it I want to make sure it's knocking crap down.

Furthermore, does Plan C have more range than other FRs? Seems to be a feature of it, especially with that nice scope.


It does have great range, though I don't know if there are FRs with more.

At least in PvE, does the normal charge speed upgrade really matter? Or is it a personal preference thing?

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What about Plan C?

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Wednesday, October 22, 2014, 12:07 (3445 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto

At least in PvE, does the normal charge speed upgrade really matter? Or is it a personal preference thing?

It's going to come down to personal preference. When you switch to Plan C it will almost immediately fire, but if a second guy shows up the charge speed upgrade will help. I personally use the charge speed upgrade.

What about Plan C?

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Wednesday, October 22, 2014, 14:26 (3445 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto


At least in PvE, does the normal charge speed upgrade really matter? Or is it a personal preference thing?

For PvP I'd say personal preference, but for PvE I'd actually advise against it. The DpS is about the same (possibly a little lower, I need to check) but you'll be burning through shots faster, meaning you'll have to reload sooner. And if you have to reload more often, you spend more time reloading, so your ability to deal sustained damage over time decreases.

A lower DpM isn't so much of an issue when taking out trash mobs, but when dealing with crowds or enemies with large health bars you want as high a DpM as possible.

I'll post my DpM equation when I get home from work (can't remember off the top of my head; too many nesting brackets) but generally speaking Magazine size is the most important factor for DpM.

DpM equation

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Wednesday, October 22, 2014, 16:36 (3444 days ago) @ someotherguy

Okay, here it is:

((60/(((Magazine Size-1)/Rate of Fire)+Reload Speed+Pause))*Magazine Size)*Damage per Shot

The pause is the period of time between emptying your magazine and a reload automatically starting.

So to break it down:

# Magazine Size - 1 = The number of shots after the first. This has to do with the way I measure RoF, but essentially boils down to a 10 shot clip only having 9 intervals between shots, with the first shot being instant and lasting for only 1 frame.
# Magazine Size / Rate of Fire = Number of Seconds per Magazine, or Magazine Time (MT)
# MT + Reload Time + Pause Time = Number of seconds to empty a full clip and reload, or Full Cycle Time (FCT)
# 60 / FCT = The number of Full Cycles per minute (CpM)
# CpM * Magazine Size = The number of shots per minute if firing at full speed, taking into account reload time and pause time - Shots per Minute (SpM)
# SpM * Damage per Shot = Damage per Minute, or DpM

Fusion Rifles are slightly more complicated due to the way I record Fusion Rifle RoF - I don't include the charge time of the first shot, and instead take that first charge time as a separate interval that I add later. This is so that RoF is measured consistently across all weapon types, but of course the first shot is not instant in Fusion Rifles, so charge time has to be added separately. Consistent =/= convenient.

((60/(((Magazine Size-1)/Rate of Fire)+Reload Time+Pause Time+Charge Time))*Magazine Size)*Damage

As you can see, the sums are functionally the same, with the only difference being the addition of Charge Time.

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I like it

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Wednesday, October 22, 2014, 16:52 (3444 days ago) @ someotherguy

Quite simple, actually, but would take me a while to figure out. :)

How do you time these, by the way? Do you count frames post-recording? Stop-watch and ninja reflexes? Godlike omniscience? ;p

I like it

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Wednesday, October 22, 2014, 17:05 (3444 days ago) @ ZackDark

Quite simple, actually, but would take me a while to figure out. :)

Yeah, when it's all written down like that it's not too bad. When I was just staring at Excel cells trying to work out how to make the interact properly... not so simple haha. In the end I wrote it out step by step much like I have there, then converted each section into a bracketed equation.

How do you time these, by the way? Do you count frames post-recording? Stop-watch and ninja reflexes? Godlike omniscience? ;p

Definitely the latter.

I actually tried the stopwatch thing back in the first Week after release before deciding it was far too imprecise. I've been counting frames ever since.


Of course, it's worth noting that DpM isn't the be-all and end-all. Weapons like Handcannons have pretty low DpM (the lowest, in fact) but make up for it with high "burst" damage. They're excellent for taking out trash mobs, or for glass cannon enemies like Psions (and supposedly some of the enemies in the VoG, though I've not played that yet).

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I like it

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Wednesday, October 22, 2014, 17:20 (3444 days ago) @ someotherguy

How do you time these, by the way? Do you count frames post-recording? Stop-watch and ninja reflexes? Godlike omniscience? ;p


Definitely the latter.

Heh

Of course, it's worth noting that DpM isn't the be-all and end-all. Weapons like Handcannons have pretty low DpM (the lowest, in fact) but make up for it with high "burst" damage. They're excellent for taking out trash mobs, or for glass cannon enemies like Psions (and supposedly some of the enemies in the VoG, though I've not played that yet).

Right, right. DpM pretty much makes more sense over absurd amounts of trash mob or Ultras. Anything in between that and I'd go for either Dmg per Second or Dmg per Shot. Still, it's one hell of a stat to have handy. Gotta go fast in those Nightfall Strikes.

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I like it

by stabbim @, Des Moines, IA, USA, Wednesday, October 22, 2014, 21:20 (3444 days ago) @ someotherguy

and supposedly some of the enemies in the VoG, though I've not played that yet).

Confirmed. The Devil You Know has been an excellent primary for me.

Also, I think this whole magazine size thing validates my strategy of always taking the field scout upgrade on HMGs. So, thanks for that. :)

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I like it

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, October 22, 2014, 21:31 (3444 days ago) @ someotherguy

Of course, it's worth noting that DpM isn't the be-all and end-all. Weapons like Handcannons have pretty low DpM (the lowest, in fact) but make up for it with high "burst" damage. They're excellent for taking out trash mobs, or for glass cannon enemies like Psions (and supposedly some of the enemies in the VoG, though I've not played that yet).

The Devil You Know at 300 attack is my primary weapon choice for the Vault of Glass on Hard while I am opening the gate, Defending the confluxes, on portal defense duty during the gatekeeper, or on the outside team on Atheon. You are right in that the burst damage is supremely useful for Mobs, but not so great on things like the oracles or detain shields.

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I like it

by dogcow @, Hiding from Bob, in the vent core., Thursday, October 23, 2014, 12:40 (3444 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Being a hand cannon guy I had my newly acquired and not yet upgraded HC, The Devil You Know, equipped when I initially encountered detain shields. My secondary was a sniper rifle. Needless to say I was very frustrated with being detained for almost the entire time the Templar's shield was down. I finally swapped out my sniper rifle for the Comedian & was VERY pleased with how much faster I was able to break my (and others) detain shield.

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I like it

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, October 23, 2014, 13:43 (3444 days ago) @ dogcow

Being a hand cannon guy I had my newly acquired and not yet upgraded HC, The Devil You Know, equipped when I initially encountered detain shields. My secondary was a sniper rifle. Needless to say I was very frustrated with being detained for almost the entire time the Templar's shield was down. I finally swapped out my sniper rifle for the Comedian & was VERY pleased with how much faster I was able to break my (and others) detain shield.

Fusion Rifles are a good second alternative to an auto shotgun when you are detained.

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My Shadow Price

by SonofMacPhisto @, Thursday, October 23, 2014, 05:57 (3444 days ago) @ someotherguy

Dunno if anyone has one like this, but I've got reload speed upgrades for having an empty mag *and* killing something with the final round. Plus reload speed upgrade from armor.

Magazine is only 25 rounds, but when everything stacks (and it happens a lot with big mobs) it feels like a bottomless magazine. CoD Slight of Hand but faster.

So all that said, reading your stuff I wonder if anything else would be a vast improvement.

My Doctor Nope

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Thursday, October 23, 2014, 07:42 (3444 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto

Dunno if anyone has one like this, but I've got reload speed upgrades for having an empty mag *and* killing something with the final round. Plus reload speed upgrade from armor.

I have a similar setup for my Doctor Nope.

72 Round Magazine, Perfect Balance, increased Reload Speed when empty and Increased Reload Speed from precision kills. It's absolutely disgusting for long PvP engagements, though the Precision Kill one is less useful for bosses obviously. Coupled with my Armour's reload speed buff and 999 Reserve Ammo capacity, it's a thing to behold. Course, it does about half as much damage as a Shadow Price, shot for shot, so I need to land more hits to have the same effect.

I find it interesting that the "passive"-seeming upgrades are actually some of the best for PvE. Reload Speed buffs, Field Scout, etc. I wonder if it's possible to triple-stack the three Reload Speed buffs (Empty, Precision Kill and Kill with Final Round).

So all that said, reading your stuff I wonder if anything else would be a vast improvement.

Honestly? Probably not much. Unless you get super lucky and get similar upgrades on something with comparable Impact *and* a larger clip, I'd say you're running pretty optimally.

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My Doctor Nope

by bluerunner @, Music City, Thursday, October 23, 2014, 08:06 (3444 days ago) @ someotherguy

My Shadow Price has a 42 round mag with Glass Half Full and Feeding Frenzy. That gives me 21 rounds of regular damage and 21 rounds of higher damage, and fast reload. I've got fast reload gloves too. Love it.

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My Doctor Nope

by SonofMacPhisto @, Thursday, October 23, 2014, 09:09 (3444 days ago) @ someotherguy

Dunno if anyone has one like this, but I've got reload speed upgrades for having an empty mag *and* killing something with the final round. Plus reload speed upgrade from armor.


I have a similar setup for my Doctor Nope.

72 Round Magazine, Perfect Balance, increased Reload Speed when empty and Increased Reload Speed from precision kills. It's absolutely disgusting for long PvP engagements, though the Precision Kill one is less useful for bosses obviously. Coupled with my Armour's reload speed buff and 999 Reserve Ammo capacity, it's a thing to behold. Course, it does about half as much damage as a Shadow Price, shot for shot, so I need to land more hits to have the same effect.

Haha, my old Hex Caster was similar, but I got tired of wrestling it. Wonderful stuff, no doubt. :)

Honestly? Probably not much. Unless you get super lucky and get similar upgrades on something with comparable Impact *and* a larger clip, I'd say you're running pretty optimally.

Ok, whew, I can stop losing sleep over it. ;)

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My Doctor Nope

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, October 23, 2014, 11:16 (3444 days ago) @ someotherguy

I find it interesting that the "passive"-seeming upgrades are actually some of the best for PvE. Reload Speed buffs, Field Scout, etc. I wonder if it's possible to triple-stack the three Reload Speed buffs (Empty, Precision Kill and Kill with Final Round).

Yes it is. My Calming has reload speed buff on kill, and on an empty mag. It reloads disgustingly fast if you kill an enemy with the final shot. Like, so fast it looks like the animation glitches out.

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My Shadow Price

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, October 23, 2014, 11:14 (3444 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto

Dunno if anyone has one like this, but I've got reload speed upgrades for having an empty mag *and* killing something with the final round. Plus reload speed upgrade from armor.

Magazine is only 25 rounds, but when everything stacks (and it happens a lot with big mobs) it feels like a bottomless magazine. CoD Slight of Hand but faster.

I like shadow price in PvP, where engagements are quicker, but in PvE it's not really so good…

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My Shadow Price

by SonofMacPhisto @, Thursday, October 23, 2014, 13:00 (3444 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Dunno if anyone has one like this, but I've got reload speed upgrades for having an empty mag *and* killing something with the final round. Plus reload speed upgrade from armor.

Magazine is only 25 rounds, but when everything stacks (and it happens a lot with big mobs) it feels like a bottomless magazine. CoD Slight of Hand but faster.


I like shadow price in PvP, where engagements are quicker, but in PvE it's not really so good…

Do you mean VoG and Nightfall PvE? I agree there. Seems to tear up anywhere else though.

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My Shadow Price

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, October 23, 2014, 13:42 (3444 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto

Dunno if anyone has one like this, but I've got reload speed upgrades for having an empty mag *and* killing something with the final round. Plus reload speed upgrade from armor.

Magazine is only 25 rounds, but when everything stacks (and it happens a lot with big mobs) it feels like a bottomless magazine. CoD Slight of Hand but faster.


I like shadow price in PvP, where engagements are quicker, but in PvE it's not really so good…


Do you mean VoG and Nightfall PvE? I agree there. Seems to tear up anywhere else though.

Dunno. The only situation it seems to me an autorifle is best for PvE is when you are low on special or heavy ammo and need to lay into a boss or someone tough.

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My Shadow Price

by SonofMacPhisto @, Thursday, October 23, 2014, 20:41 (3443 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Dunno if anyone has one like this, but I've got reload speed upgrades for having an empty mag *and* killing something with the final round. Plus reload speed upgrade from armor.

Magazine is only 25 rounds, but when everything stacks (and it happens a lot with big mobs) it feels like a bottomless magazine. CoD Slight of Hand but faster.


I like shadow price in PvP, where engagements are quicker, but in PvE it's not really so good…


Do you mean VoG and Nightfall PvE? I agree there. Seems to tear up anywhere else though.


Dunno. The only situation it seems to me an autorifle is best for PvE is when you are low on special or heavy ammo and need to lay into a boss or someone tough.

Now that I read this, turns out we agree. Secondary weapons are basically my primary weapon.

What about Plan C?

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Wednesday, October 22, 2014, 12:08 (3445 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto

One signature upgrade is faster charge time after switching to it. Will that affect damage similarly? Haven't unlocked that yet.

Good question. I can't say with any kind of certainty, but I'd imagine it depends on whether Damage is determined by the weapons Charge Speed stat or the actual time it takes to charge. If it's the former you're probably alright, but if it's the latter I should think you'll see a damage reduction.

Right now I'm using the normal charge upgrade, and it felt like it wasn't killing as reliably. Wondering if the range upgrade will be more useful, as when I use it I want to make sure it's knocking crap down.

Range also has the benefit of increasing the speed at which the FRs projectiles travel (though I should point out that's not based on my own research. I saw it posted on Reddit so I cant confirm its veracity).

Furthermore, does Plan C have more range than other FRs? Seems to be a feature of it, especially with that nice scope.

I don't have Plan C, but if you're willing to leave it equipped and link me to your B.Net page, I can grab it's stats and let you know.

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What about Plan C?

by SonofMacPhisto @, Wednesday, October 22, 2014, 12:31 (3445 days ago) @ someotherguy

One signature upgrade is faster charge time after switching to it. Will that affect damage similarly? Haven't unlocked that yet.


Good question. I can't say with any kind of certainty, but I'd imagine it depends on whether Damage is determined by the weapons Charge Speed stat or the actual time it takes to charge. If it's the former you're probably alright, but if it's the latter I should think you'll see a damage reduction.

Right now I'm using the normal charge upgrade, and it felt like it wasn't killing as reliably. Wondering if the range upgrade will be more useful, as when I use it I want to make sure it's knocking crap down.


Range also has the benefit of increasing the speed at which the FRs projectiles travel (though I should point out that's not based on my own research. I saw it posted on Reddit so I cant confirm its veracity).

Furthermore, does Plan C have more range than other FRs? Seems to be a feature of it, especially with that nice scope.


I don't have Plan C, but if you're willing to leave it equipped and link me to your B.Net page, I can grab it's stats and let you know.

It's up right now! I think the link is http://www.bungie.net/en/Profile/254/162230 my Titan has it.

Idea: if you ever need data, callout for help here. Folks will be happy to oblige.

What about Plan C?

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Wednesday, October 22, 2014, 14:44 (3445 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto

Thanks, will grab it and let you know when I get in from work.

What about Plan C?

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Wednesday, October 22, 2014, 16:00 (3444 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto

It's up right now! I think the link is http://www.bungie.net/en/Profile/254/162230 my Titan has it.

I think I might have missed it? It's currently Ice Breaker your Titan has equipped in the Special slot.

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What about Plan C?

by SonofMacPhisto @, Wednesday, October 22, 2014, 21:15 (3444 days ago) @ someotherguy

gahhhh sorry yeah forgot to switch it back after playing today. will fix tomorrow :)

Interesting note on Fusion Rifles

by Jabberwok, Tuesday, October 21, 2014, 16:01 (3445 days ago) @ someotherguy

My RoF and Reload Speed data comes from PvE. All damage values had to come from PvP, as there's too many variables to get a clean read.

Attack value, for example, means that a green and a blue with the same Impact could deal different damage. Same goes for character level. Unless I could guarantee all weapons had the sane attack, and that I would stay the same level throughout the process, I felt PvE results wouldn't be reliable. At least for my sweeping understandings of each weapon type.

That said, the Charge Speed/Damage thing is also true in PvE. Just tested it. Dammerung 5 dropped from 75 to 70, Nox Revus IV went from 86 to 77.

I'm aware of attack rating (which I assume has no effect on PvP) and impact, but where are you finding these values for damage? Just from the numbers that pop up when shooting things? I also wonder if the fusion rifle with a faster charge still does enough damage to one-hit in PvP. If so, I guess I'll stick with that.

Interesting note on Fusion Rifles

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Tuesday, October 21, 2014, 17:08 (3445 days ago) @ Jabberwok

Yep, damage values are literally the damage that pops up upon hitting your target.

As I said above, in my experience even the weakest Fusion Rifle can get a 1 hit kill, but only if all 6+ out of 7 "pellets" hit the target. I personally go for a stronger FR so I dont have to hit with as many "pellets", but thats mostly because Im bad at Fusion Rifles.

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Interesting note on Fusion Rifles

by Kahzgul, Wednesday, October 22, 2014, 10:03 (3445 days ago) @ someotherguy

I use a 77 Wizard with the faster charge mod and it's a beast in PvP, capable of one-shotting at pretty good range. Lest you doubt my anecdata, I just finished the void damage segment of the Thorn bounty chain using this here 77 Wizard last night. Didn't take too long, just two evenings of PvP, and I had time to run the nightfall strike in there, too. It's got a four round-clip and I've completed 5 of 10 fusion rifle sprees for that bounty as well. More than capable.

It's definitely do-able. I just suck haha

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Wednesday, October 22, 2014, 10:51 (3445 days ago) @ Kahzgul

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