I think it's funny how the same inventive clever behavior on the behalf of the players, which was the life's blood of Halo, is now being viewed as playing the game in a way that they didn't intend.

I didn't buy a book that has a fixed ending, I bought an 'Open World Shooter'. Open implying to me that I have some choice in how I approach things.

I got your back, Cody.

*Edit* - Or maybe Bungie could stop following the pattern of a lot of developers lately (looking at YOU Respawn) and putting out half-finished products. If they had playtested the end of the raid, and TRIED to break it, maybe they would have found it before we did. Take the fucking time to FIND and FIX your bugs and behaviors before you put the fucking game out. You mean to tell me that nobody thought the Vex Mythoclast was a little fucking busted in testing? Gimmie a break. And don't DLC us to death with all this content 'you didn't have finished in time for release', when it's in the goddamn game files already.

tl;dr of Edit - FINISH YOUR FUCKING GAMES BEFORE YOU RELEASE THEM.

If you present a challenge to me, and I come up with a novel, clever, and efficient solution, that should not be invalidated.

I don't think it was. If you used any of the methods they now prevent, you still beat Atheon. You still keep your sense of accomplishment, your skills, your experience, your loot.

But Bungie are totally allowed to change the challenge for future attempts by you or anyone else.

Have you ever watched Sasuke? AKA Ninja Warrior. It's a televised 4 stage obstacle course from Japan. The first stage is open to basically all ability levels so its entertaining for the wipe-outs as much as the swift completions. Then the later stages become truly gruelling with some inspiring attempts.

They've held dozens of competitions with 100 competitors each time and the full course has only been cleared 4 times by 3 different people. The organisers make changes to the course every year, and every time someone beat it they did a massive overhaul of the entire course.

The changes don't invalidate the completer's accomplishments at all. The changes make it BETTER as it keeps it a fresh and interesting challenge for everyone each time. No competition is a foregone conclusion just because the guy that won last time is back again. The best competitors can never get too comfortable, can't rely too heavily on training on replicas at home. It means there are more upsets for viewers and competitors have to be more adaptable and just plain better. The few that get far in the course are welcomed back as heroes every time they decide to have another go.

That's a fairly extreme example in terms of how much it changes and I wouldn't expect the Vault of Glass to undergo that. But, the point is, changing the challenge is fine and can even be a good thing.

(Also, you should watch Sasuke - it's awesome)

Part of the problem with the Templar fix I have in principle is that it breaks the logic of the game. You have a platform you can reach. So it stands to reason you can stand there and snipe enemies, just as enemies do to you. When you can't, it breaks immersion.

A better solution would have been to place the platforms farther away, so they simply cannot be reached.

Oh, I totally agree. Or make them smaller with no viable cover and extend the Templar's range.

Bungie didn't patch out shield bumping which let you beat Keyes in 2 minutes.

Because they couldn't

Ok, fair enough, that's true - they couldn't. But if they could have, would they have done so?

Feels like a moot point to me because... they couldn't.

The design of subsequent Halo games certainly points to them thinking it undesirable: more kill zones, invisible barriers etc.

In those single-player days, they didn't consider things that sped up campaign runs (even massively) to be a problem.

Speeding stuff up is still A-Okay with Bungie. The design of the levels in Destiny reveals this over and over. There is SO much you can just run straight past. Stuff that I originally thought were objectives are actually just 'obstacles' between you and the end.

I know you in particular are quite familiar with those glitches, more so than me, but for anyone who isn't, look at the later Halo 2 sword flying exploit for an example. That exploit was patched out in multiplayer (and rightly so) because it could potentially be used to ruin others' fun. However, it was left in campaign (again, rightly so IMO).

I was mostly an observer to Halo 1/2 speed running so someone correct me if I'm wrong but, didn't the patch affect Sword Flying in campaign too?

I distinctly remember people asking how they could remove the patch so they could sword fly again.

I don't understand the motivation behind the completely random loot system.

How do you not understand it? It's designed to keep you playing the game by making everything you want or want to do take longer. I explained this three years ago.

Right now, there's no feeling of progression. I'm just playing a slot machine on a weekly basis.

But you are playing, and that's all that matters to Activision.

I love playing through the Raid just for the enjoyment of it, but it is beyond frustrating to get to the end and see several members of your fireteam awarded sweet gear while you get nothing but some ascendant energy and a ship. It creates feelings of disappointment that tarnish the experience.

You can do the raid 50 times and come out with jack shit. People are tired of doing everything for nothing.

That rather depends on whether you're doing the raid for the reward or if you're doing the raid for the challenge, doesn't it?

-- Steve enjoys Destiny more than he thought he would upon first hitting level 20. It's far from perfect, but it's at least as far from the disaster people make it out to be.

Yeah. I've been pretty vocal about some of my disappointment, but I have to admit that it's been fun and rewarding for the most part. Maybe the most telling: I haven't been able to stop playing.

Right around 24-26 it seemed like I was stuck getting nothing, stuck without any hope of leveling, and then -BOOM- all of a sudden I was 28. And since then it's been 2 steps forward, 2 steps back as I upgraded stuff only to find other stuff I liked better. Hence, my drooling addiction to Ascendant Shards.

It helps that I'm in finally in love with my gear:
- Heart of the Praxic Fire - Exotic Armor let's me spam solar grenades, and pretty to boot
- Crypt Dweller SR1 - Legendary Scout Rifle that causes targets to explode on head shot
- Plan C - Exotic Fusion Rifle that bails me out
- The Swarm - Legendary Machine Gun that absolutely destroys in PvE and PvP

Are there warts? Sure. But I've found that I really enjoy bopping in for the Daily, dinking around on Patrol until a Public Event hits, and I especially love hammering through the Vanguard Tiger playlist over and over. It's pretty rewarding mashing through baddies with randoms, especially when the group gels a little. I've found randoms to be surprisingly pleasant to play with.

I think there are about (EDIT) 4 sources of frustration:

1.) Story issues (understood, granted, and well-discussed)
2.) Level progression (lack thereof, especially in the 24-26 doldrums)
3.) End-game content completion (nothing left to accomplish)
4.) (EDIT) Crucible wonkiness

I've played a ton of Destiny, and I'm pretty amazed that people have played through so much already. I still haven't completed a Nightfall, and have only made it to Atheon in the Raid once.

Don't get me wrong, I totally enjoy playing destiny. The first few times I did the raid it was for the challenge. Now the challenge is over, the raid is on farm mode and the farms are dead.