The 99¢ question. (Destiny)

by petetheduck, Monday, November 24, 2014, 11:05 (3435 days ago)

Let's say that tomorrow Bungie adds a new vendor that sells a Weapon Pack for 99¢ of real money. It contains:

212,500 XP
20,000 Glimmer
18 Ascendant Energy
64 Spinmetal
64 Helium Filaments
64 Spirit Bloom
64 Relic Iron

That's right--everything you need to instantly upgrade an Exotic weapon. Be honest, now: who would buy it?

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I would buy..... but I would also hate myself

by unoudid @, Somewhere over the rainbow, Monday, November 24, 2014, 11:11 (3435 days ago) @ petetheduck

I might eventually have to shard whatever I upgraded out of pure guilt.

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What if it was $1.99?

by CyberKN ⌂ @, Oh no, Destiny 2 is bad, Monday, November 24, 2014, 11:37 (3435 days ago) @ unoudid

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anything over $0.99 and I'm out

by unoudid @, Somewhere over the rainbow, Monday, November 24, 2014, 11:41 (3435 days ago) @ CyberKN

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Reasoning...

by unoudid @, Somewhere over the rainbow, Monday, November 24, 2014, 11:40 (3435 days ago) @ unoudid

I'm around 16,000 glimmer short of being able to buy the IB Goldspiral shader and Perun's Fire Fusion Rifle.

for $0.99 I would gladly buy the glimmer I needed so I can do some real life stuff tonight (make cranberry sauce for the office Thanksgiving party tomorrow) instead of going to my favorite glimmer farming hole for an hour or two.

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I'd stop playing Destiny at that point.

by Revenant1988 ⌂ @, How do I forum?, Monday, November 24, 2014, 11:13 (3435 days ago) @ petetheduck

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The 99¢ question.

by Blackt1g3r @, Login is from an untrusted domain in MN, Monday, November 24, 2014, 11:30 (3435 days ago) @ petetheduck

I have a will of steel, I play tons of games with this kind of crap without paying a single cent for them even though I could certainly afford it. I don't like supporting that business model.

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The 99¢ question.

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, November 24, 2014, 11:50 (3434 days ago) @ petetheduck

I wouldn't buy one. I'd buy 15 or 20. I'm totally serious. Over 200 hours in Destiny, and the only thing that really bothers me is farming for materials. Can't stand it. Obviously I'd prefer Bungie came up with a solution that doesn't cost real money, but if the only option is to buy my way past it, I'll do it.

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NOPE

by Schedonnardus, Texas, Monday, November 24, 2014, 11:55 (3434 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

not going to awards Bungie's bad decision making (farming upgrade materials) with more money. I'll grind it out eventually through normal play.

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NOPE

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, November 24, 2014, 12:15 (3434 days ago) @ Schedonnardus

I totally get where you're coming from, and you're completely right from a certain point of view.

But the way I look at it, this is a game that I'm very much dedicated to. I spend a lot of time with it (over 200 hours so far) and I haven't slowed down with it in the slightest since launch.

If paying an extra $15-$20 completely removes the 1 major gripe I have about the day-to-day experience, I'm willing to pay it.

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NOPE

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, November 24, 2014, 13:06 (3434 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

If paying an extra $15-$20 completely removes the 1 major gripe I have about the day-to-day experience, I'm willing to pay it.

You shouldn't have to. This element of the game should simply be designed to be fun from the very beginning. On the bright side, now you can run two raids and get double the ascendant materials. Of course I am sure the new exotics and legendaries will cost more to upgrade, negating that completely and keeping you on the hamster wheel.

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NOPE

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, November 24, 2014, 13:47 (3434 days ago) @ Cody Miller

If paying an extra $15-$20 completely removes the 1 major gripe I have about the day-to-day experience, I'm willing to pay it.


You shouldn't have to. This element of the game should simply be designed to be fun from the very beginning. On the bright side, now you can run two raids and get double the ascendant materials. Of course I am sure the new exotics and legendaries will cost more to upgrade, negating that completely and keeping you on the hamster wheel.

Like I said, I'd much prefer they simply address these issues as part of an update or something. Charging for packs rather than fixing the issues for free would suck, But again, I'm already committed to playing Destiny. So if my options are:
1) keep playing the game exactly as it is now
or
2) pay a bit of money to bypass the boring part

then I'll go with option 2.

What are you going to do if you get past the boring part?

by scarab @, Wednesday, November 26, 2014, 14:14 (3432 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

how long will the game hold your attention?

Will you just play PvP?

NOPE

by Monochron, Monday, November 24, 2014, 12:51 (3434 days ago) @ Schedonnardus

not going to awards Bungie's bad decision making (farming upgrade materials) with more money. I'll grind it out eventually through normal play.

I agree with your sentiment. But, by grinding it out over time you are supporting them with your hours logged. Not as bad as paying more. But still.

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Easy Solution

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, November 24, 2014, 13:04 (3434 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY
edited by Cody Miller, Monday, November 24, 2014, 13:10

I wouldn't buy one. I'd buy 15 or 20. I'm totally serious. Over 200 hours in Destiny, and the only thing that really bothers me is farming for materials. Can't stand it. Obviously I'd prefer Bungie came up with a solution that doesn't cost real money, but if the only option is to buy my way past it, I'll do it.

It doesn't have to be. Here's the Cody solution, which I'm hoping they steal:

Eliminate planetary resources completely from the game. Perk upgrades on weapons cost ascendant energy. All other upgrades such as damage, ballistics, etc is glimmer / weapon parts only.

I've just made the game immensely better. There is literally no downside to adopting this.

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Easy Solution

by stabbim @, Des Moines, IA, USA, Monday, November 24, 2014, 13:45 (3434 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I've just made the game immensely better. There is literally no downside to adopting this.

I actually agree with this. There's no downside from the player perspective - I can't imagine that running around looking for chests is actually more fun for anyone than the rest of the game.

There is a SLIGHT downside from the developer's perspective, in that they lose one of the things that causes players to put extra time in. However, if they really insist on squeezing that extra time investment out of us, they could make it up by requiring more ascendant materials for the upgrades. If they jacked that requirement up enough, they could make the time up. But at least in that scenario, we'd be putting the extra time in by doing raids, public events, dailies/weeklies - things that are fun on their own. Much better than running around in circles looking for boxes.

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Easy Solution

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, November 24, 2014, 13:52 (3434 days ago) @ stabbim

There is a SLIGHT downside from the developer's perspective, in that they lose one of the things that causes players to put extra time in.

The thing is, I would still be putting the same amount of time into the game, I would just be spending it doing stuff I enjoy rather than farming :)

Easy Solution

by Blue_Blazer_NZ, Wellington, New Zealand, Monday, November 24, 2014, 16:08 (3434 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

There is a SLIGHT downside from the developer's perspective, in that they lose one of the things that causes players to put extra time in.


The thing is, I would still be putting the same amount of time into the game, I would just be spending it doing stuff I enjoy rather than farming :)

yeah, I'm 29 and have a bunch of gear the needs Helium crap to upgrade to 30 - it's all XP'd up, but just need the Helium to actually upgrade it all. Thing is, I'd rather spend my time in Iron Banner while it lasts, so going to the Moon to literally run in circles for Helium is something I've been putting off for days.

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Exactly this

by unoudid @, Somewhere over the rainbow, Monday, November 24, 2014, 16:12 (3434 days ago) @ Blue_Blazer_NZ

Thing is, I'd rather spend my time in Iron Banner while it lasts, so going to the Moon to literally run in circles for Helium is something I've been putting off for days.

I have refused to spend any glimmer this week while I save it to buy Iron Banner stuff. I have a fully EXPed Atheon's Epilogue, Jolder's Hammer, The Swarm, Fatebringer, Preadyth's Revenge, IB Boots and Gauntlets, and an extra set of Raid Boots that I just need to drop glimmer, mats, and ascendants into from this weeks play. However, I'm keeping all glimmer until the Iron Banner ends.

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Easy Solution

by Vortech @, A Fourth Wheel, Thursday, November 27, 2014, 07:36 (3432 days ago) @ stabbim

I also have a suspicion that spreading the players around instances in different worlds helps with the server load issues so switching to only universal resource may have another downside from the developer perspective even if the resource required for upgrades was raised. That is based on no actual information about destiny though.

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Easy Solution

by dogcow @, Hiding from Bob, in the vent core., Monday, November 24, 2014, 14:12 (3434 days ago) @ Cody Miller

What if they decimated (or maybe even just halved or quartered) the amount of planetary resources required for upgrades? They could go the other way & dramatically increase the amount of planetary resources given by chests & node.

I really like being given a reason to visit certain planets in order to upgrade certain items, especially because I may not go explore there otherwise (I'm looking at you mars). I also like the idea/theme of having certain pieces 'tied' to certain planets.

Ultimately it boils down to this: I'd love it if the materials I picked up while having fun on certain planets were enough to do the necessary upgrades.

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Easy Solution

by DiscipleN2k @, Edmond, OK, Monday, November 24, 2014, 14:57 (3434 days ago) @ dogcow

I liked the way they did it in the beta. Or at least, the way I think I remember them doing it where they awarded a planet's materials for completing patrol missions. Though it might be even better to just have enemy kills have a decent chance of dropping materials. I wouldn't at all mind farming materials if it meant going out and killing lots of stuff. I guess I just want to be a hunter, not a gatherer.

-Disciple

Youre right - VIP patrols gave ~10 resources on completion

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Thursday, November 27, 2014, 05:46 (3432 days ago) @ DiscipleN2k

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Easy Solution

by Vortech @, A Fourth Wheel, Thursday, November 27, 2014, 07:28 (3432 days ago) @ dogcow

Do you do the daily public events and mission bounties? It's pretty rare for me to need to actively farm a resource because I pick up enough of them by doing that stuff (although that is why I often need to make myself go to the moon since the public events there are weak). Of course that was only true once I got my grimoire score for each planet up to a resource multiplying level. YMMV.

Fantastic Question

by rliebherr @, St. Louis, Missouri, Monday, November 24, 2014, 12:35 (3434 days ago) @ petetheduck

I would buy it. I would buy several. I also think the playerbase would fall off of a cliff because the addiction to the game would be partially 'cured' by giving players instant gratification. The casino of items dropping would still draw players, but they wouldn't have to stay in game as long.

Really great question, pete.

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The fact that this is being proposed…

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, November 24, 2014, 13:02 (3434 days ago) @ petetheduck

…means that getting resources is boring and needs to be changed. I would rather they fix the underlying problem than do something like this to get around it.

If stuff like this ever happens, it's 100% end of the line full stop jumping off the train time for me.

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Isn't this moot?

by RC ⌂, UK, Monday, November 24, 2014, 13:04 (3434 days ago) @ petetheduck

Since Destiny's on-going funding* is with $20 Expansion packs.


*and possibly a return of Bungie Pro at some point.

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Nope.

by Leviathan ⌂, Hotel Zanzibar, Monday, November 24, 2014, 13:07 (3434 days ago) @ petetheduck

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I've spent 300 at least on Dota 2 items so probably yeah

by Spec ops Grunt @, Broklahoma, Monday, November 24, 2014, 13:20 (3434 days ago) @ petetheduck

I'm not good with money :(

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This is a tricky question.

by uberfoop @, Seattle-ish, Monday, November 24, 2014, 13:23 (3434 days ago) @ petetheduck

On the one hand, Destiny has a pretty good game in it, and removing the progression annoyances (for extremely cheap, to the point that I wouldn't personally care much about the cost) would make it better.

On the other hand, the offer would only exist because of a flaw in Destiny's game design, and encouraging that business model will only damage games going forward, so I absolutely would not want to encourage it by giving Bungie money.

There's a part of me that says "go for it", and a part of me that says "return Destiny and never buy another Bungie game until they reverse their policies."

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Not a chance

by Mid7night ⌂ @, Rocket BSCHSHCSHSHCCHGGH!!!!!!, Monday, November 24, 2014, 14:11 (3434 days ago) @ uberfoop

I'll go use my time on my son, make more airplanes, play MCC; literally so many other things to spend my time and money on.

And I'm glad to see I'm not alone. :)

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Not a chance

by Speedracer513 @, Dallas, Texas, Monday, November 24, 2014, 14:15 (3434 days ago) @ Mid7night

. . . make more airplanes . . .

Are you a homebuilder?

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RC gliders mostly

by Mid7night ⌂ @, Rocket BSCHSHCSHSHCCHGGH!!!!!!, Monday, November 24, 2014, 18:12 (3434 days ago) @ Speedracer513

. . . make more airplanes . . .


Are you a homebuilder?

I like to experiment with dollar tree foamboard and fun different glider ideas.
I've made a few powered too, but I can't remember the last "Kit" I built. :P

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RC gliders mostly

by Speedracer513 @, Dallas, Texas, Monday, November 24, 2014, 19:12 (3434 days ago) @ Mid7night

. . . make more airplanes . . .


Are you a homebuilder?


I like to experiment with dollar tree foamboard and fun different glider ideas.
I've made a few powered too, but I can't remember the last "Kit" I built. :P

Cool. My brother and I are building a Vans RV-7 so when I saw "make more airplanes" I thought maybe you were an RV builder too.

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No.

by breitzen @, Kansas, Monday, November 24, 2014, 13:38 (3434 days ago) @ petetheduck

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Please no.

by dogcow @, Hiding from Bob, in the vent core., Monday, November 24, 2014, 14:15 (3434 days ago) @ petetheduck

I would, I would hate myself, and it would ruin the game.

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The 99¢ question.

by Morpheus @, High Charity, Monday, November 24, 2014, 14:39 (3434 days ago) @ petetheduck

I'd probably buy it if it means no longer having to fucking kill 200 people with a weak Fusion Rifle in Nightfall.

Other than that, it would have to be just for the Energy. I don't mind scavenging for Planetsutffs.

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Nope. It's just not something I'd do.

by Anton P. Nym (aka Steve) ⌂ @, London, Ontario, Canada, Monday, November 24, 2014, 15:01 (3434 days ago) @ petetheduck

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The 99¢ question.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, November 24, 2014, 22:36 (3434 days ago) @ petetheduck

Let's say that tomorrow Bungie adds a new vendor that sells a Weapon Pack for 99¢ of real money. It contains:

212,500 XP
20,000 Glimmer
18 Ascendant Energy
64 Spinmetal
64 Helium Filaments
64 Spirit Bloom
64 Relic Iron

That's right--everything you need to instantly upgrade an Exotic weapon. Be honest, now: who would buy it?

Not everything. You'll need to add in exotic weapon cores to this pack :-p

Another troubling thing about the Dark below. Yet more kinds of upgrade materials to grind for.

The 99¢ question.

by petetheduck, Tuesday, November 25, 2014, 09:08 (3434 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Not everything. You'll need to add in exotic weapon cores to this pack :-p

Those will be sold separately :-P

Another troubling thing about the Dark below. Yet more kinds of upgrade materials to grind for.

I would really like to see it removed, toned down, or somehow made easier. Sniper rifle that collects any materials you shoot? Yes please. Ability to set extractors that automatically gather a particular material over time? Yes please.

It would take me hours to collect that lot (or days)

by scarab @, Wednesday, November 26, 2014, 14:19 (3432 days ago) @ petetheduck

I earn more than 99 cents per hour. It would make sense to buy what I need at that price.

Then Bungie could start concentrate on making the time spent in Destiny more fun.

The 99¢ question.

by Avateur @, Thursday, November 27, 2014, 01:08 (3432 days ago) @ petetheduck

I'd immediately stop supporting Bungie and Destiny, and I'd probably uninstall the thing all together.

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Subverting the 99¢ question.

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Thursday, November 27, 2014, 01:49 (3432 days ago) @ petetheduck

What if we could skip all the material stuff for free (as a menu option), but there was an achievement/trophy for doing all the other achievements "legitimately"? Perhaps even a "legit" version of every achievement. Or, hell, disabling all achievements once you switched it on.

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A way-too-long answer.

by Vortech @, A Fourth Wheel, Thursday, November 27, 2014, 08:20 (3432 days ago) @ petetheduck

My reaction to this idea and to games that use it is as negative, immediate, and visceral as most of you who have posted here. I Also, however, see that there is a certain value to it that I can't deny intellectually even though I have this emotional recoil. I have plenty of people who I liked playing Halo or other static multiplayer games with who simply don't have time to farm resources and level up gear and such. They won't play a game like Destiny just as certainly as some of you have said you will not play a game that did this sort of pay to catch up micro payments. In those friend's case it is about where they spend a limited free time or even if they can ever level up enough to be part of the group. Their jobs or family require more time than what a game like Destiny requires to be left over.

Part of me expects and understands the counter-argument that they simply are correct that they should not play a game like Destiny then. But I think that only delays this question. This sort of mini rpg mechanic is getting more and more previlant (those friends first starting talking about this leveling mechanic as why they won't play a game starting with modern warfare and it has been a discussion more and more frequently since then as more and more game generes adopt it.) Now, asking whether a game has this mechanic has become part of the prolegomena for many of them.

As Scarab noted, for many people time has a money value (often determined by salary) and the game developer asking them to farm, level or otherwise invest time into the game to be competitive or to not be a drag on a group is a difference without a distinction to asking them to pay more money. If the "time players" are happy because their hard work is not just de-valued by giving away upgrades they spent a long time on, and the "money+time players" are happy because they can pay what they see as a low or reasonable cost to get to where their time play friends are and get the group back together, and the developer is happy because more money and happy players, well, that's a scenario that has enough value that I expect we will need to confront it again in the future.

And in the name of connecting with friends I bought Destiny for MS and Sony platforms yet strangely I didn't feel nearly so bad about that idea that cost me 60 dollars as I do about this idea that costs someone else 1 dollar.

I also think it is important to distinguish this from micro pay in a game that is free to play otherwise as this would be a minor revenue source instead of the only source and therefore would not corrupt game decisions as strongly (hopefully) and this is not a situation where the payments bring pointless value (single player games don't have any of this value to equalizing player progress despite different availible time to invest I was discussing above).

Destiny made significant efforts to level the levels for pvp but almost not at all for PvE. I have "accidently" leveled two charectors past the point of their purpose because I have enough friends stuck at much lower levels than my main so I made alts to play with the lower level friends. I can join them for story missions, and to a lesser extent for strikes (if the game matchmakes a third it seems to match with the higher level and then they just feel like they are being drug along rather than playing along.) but that requires me to be playing for no benifit in-game. I don't mind so much but I know it make them feel left out and like a charity case. And there are fun experiences in the game they won't have access to because of level caps or because my willingness to play. With lower level friends does not extend to pulling a 26 along through VoG (nor to I think they would enjoy that experience).

But yeah, despite all that I hate the idea and would say no to it every time.

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A way-too-long answer.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, November 27, 2014, 11:03 (3432 days ago) @ Vortech

Part of me expects and understands the counter-argument that they simply are correct that they should not play a game like Destiny then. But I think that only delays this question. This sort of mini rpg mechanic is getting more and more previlant (those friends first starting talking about this leveling mechanic as why they won't play a game starting with modern warfare and it has been a discussion more and more frequently since then as more and more game generes adopt it.)

This is perhaps the biggest surprise that I've seen in where games are turning. The leveling mechanic was initially designed to to have your avatar's skill improving over the course of the game, and not so coincidentally was often used in game types that were very simple, thus not leaving room for player skill to improve, so provided a sort of simulation of that.

For instance JRPGs are a very simple genre, and are essentially very easy strategy games. Because the strategy is easy, you cannot rely on upping the challenge as time goes on and having the player slowly master your game, because they would master the simple mechanics in 30 minutes. There's really no way to have a challenging boss except for ones that take a while to prepare for, by requiring time investment for gear and leveling.

The leveling mechanic where your avatar grows more powerful can be used for different purposes in games which are actually complex. Because they don't have to hide the game's simplicity, they can instead be used to improve games in various ways. For instance, in something like Metroid, your character gains new abilities through the items you acquire, which allows areas to be gated off until you have a certain powerup, enabling a more seamless progression of challenges. The player teaches himself how to tackle challenges in the initial areas, and by the time they learn they now get that powerup and can progress onto the harder areas.

Deus Ex uses progression in order to make players focus and choose how they want to tackle challenges. The final area in the game, Area 51, is pretty much an impregnable military fortress. This makes sense story wise, as well as within the game. It would be impossible to beat otherwise, so you have to utilize your character progression and augmentations to power yourself up in whatever way you see fit to tackle the challenges. You can sneak, survive the elements, hack and lockpick, or become a tank and go in gunning.

These examples are progression done right, because they add benefit to the game. As you progress in Deus Ex, you are simply given more points to put toward your character, and hidden augmentation canisters encourage exploration and enable alternative forms of interaction with the game world. It is itself a meaningful challenge, and more importantly, takes place during the course of playing the game and having fun.

I would say the big difference between progression systems done right versus those done wrong comes down to whether the barrier they create is fun to overcome. Your character is too weak to complete this section. Is getting strong fun to do? In Metroid, of course it is, since it means beating bosses, exploring, and acquiring the items you need. In Deus Ex, it's fun to overcome the barriers by planning your character and finding hidden augmentations.

The barriers in many modern games are NOT fun to overcome. What barriers does Destiny throw at you?

After you finish the game for the first time and hit level 20, you will probably be hurting for your respective classes' armor upgrade materials. In my case it is Saphire Wire. These are needed to upgrade your armor so you can get more light. How do you get more? You dismantle other armor. How do you get other armor? The best way seems to be to either do stupid shit like the loot cave, or to do strike playlists over and over. How much fun is it playing the same boring strike again and again?

Next, you end up with a lot of upgraded blue and you have a decent light level, but you are still not at 30. Your next barrier is getting Marks to buy legendary armor. There is a literal barrier here, as you can only acquire 200 per week. Acquiring marks is again done by doing boring repetitive shit. You are not yet powerful enough to do the more interesting nightfall strikes, so you again have to run the daily story missions, and strike playlists. Maybe you level up with a faction in the hopes of getting their armor, which in turn means doing boring repetitive bounties. How much fun is all that?

You are now THIS close to getting to play the raid, but now you are hurting for shards. How do you get shards? Again, do the same boring shit over and over.

Now you can play the raid! The raid is awesome. But why go through all that llisted above, when Bungie could have simply had a level 20 version of the raid? You've finished the game and learned how to play? Here have at another challenge.

Now you need raid gear. It's random. That means replaying the raid, which is not SO bad since it's fun and there's lots of roles you can try. Never defended the left conflux? Try it this time. Never gone in the portal to kill the gatekeeper? Give it a whirl. But you're still not getting what you need, and there is again a literal barrier of one time per week.

Now you weapons need upgrading, so you are always short on energy. How do you get more? Correct. Do boring repetitive shit.

Destiny's problem is that the barriers it throws at you are not fun to overcome.Your investment system can provide meaningful additional challenge if done right, or it can provide a boring, frustrating system you fight against rather than be asked to utilize and engage with.

The kicker, is that the FPS DOES NOT NEED ANY OF THIS, because it is not a shitty genre. JRPGs would be dead in the water without the systems, yet many FPS games function fine (better actually) without them. If your system is not going to enhance the game, it should simply be absent.

Came for "Deus Ex". Was not disappointed ;)

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Thursday, November 27, 2014, 13:14 (3431 days ago) @ Cody Miller

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