Encouraging multi-classing with class-specific quests & loot

Situation: the 'optimal' way to play Destiny in terms of progression/time_spent is to have 3 characters of the same class.

Evidence: the first players to 30/32 were all multi-char-ing with the same class. The first 32 even deleted and re-leveled that class over and over!

Problem: I think this is backwards. It robs players of the experience of the different movement modes, abilities, supers and playstyles that other classes afford the player. Destiny seems less diverse, less interesting, and hence less fun.

Solution: Introduce class-specific quests, class-specific chests & class-specific rewards. So the 'optimal' way to play is to have one of each.

Precedent: With Eris, there are class-specific bounties (e.g. Chain Hunter throwing-knife kills). Certain chests and jumps are already easier for some classes to get (by height or distance). Some strategies only work with some classes (e.g. Hunter going camo past enemies).

Class-Specific Bounties
We already have class-specific Vanguard mentor characters. Well, glorified check-out kiosks. Let's make them more useful. The Vanguards could take it in turns each week to offer a set of class-specific Bounties. Hunter Week, Titan Week, Warlock Week, repeat. Completion of which gives a randomized reward out of the Vanguard loot pool.

BUT, the weekly 'complete' flag for these is account-level rather than character-level (idea stolen from someone on this forum). Like that, if you had 3 of the same class, you'd only get an extra reward once every 3 weeks. If you had one of each, you'd get one every week.

Class-specific Chests
The most obvious place to stick these would be a Raid, but spicing up Story missions and Strikes would also be possible:

Chamber with physical guards that can only be camo'd past by a hunter,
Ledge that can only be reached by a Titan,
Air-mined area that can only be floated through by a Warlock.

It's pretty easy to come up with crude ideas for this, I'm sure it can be done more elegantly. #NotAGameDesigner #OnlyAWannabe

Combinations of class-strengths and Exotic perks might be possible too (e.g Mida Multi-Tool or Patience & Time plus a Hunter), but would have to be treated carefully since Exotics are hard to come by.

Class-specific Rewards
This is where I start to get a little crazy. Let's say each Raid armour piece requires 3 different materials to fully upgrade. Let's call them: Sapphire Shards, Hadronic Shards, and Plasteel Shards.

RNGesus gives out all three to every class, but in a ratio more like this:

Titan: 2:1:3
Warlock: 1:3:2
Hunter: 3:2:1

So if you only have 1 character, you can still get everything you need, but the most efficient way to gather them is to use 3 different classes, even if you eventually spend them on armour for just one of them. Armour drops would also dismantle in a similar ratio.

Doesn't make sense!? Does Hunters only finding Hunter armour on Crota's corpse make any sense? Private loot-stream, bros. Don't worry about it.

I'd also make Shards a bit more readily available, since you can share Weapons but not Armour between classes. It'd help re-balance the ease-of-completion advantage of having 3 level 32 Hunters vs. decking out a Titan and Warlock in 32 gear as well.

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I had 3 classes before but, I deleted my Warlock to make another Hunter. I couldn't bring myself to delete my Titan as well. I haven't played that much recently and am thinking about bringing the Warlock back for fun.

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I have forgotten: why is it necessary to use mults of the same class. I understand THAT it gives an advantage but I can't remember why (if I ever knew).

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I have forgotten: why is it necessary to use mults of the same class. I understand THAT it gives an advantage but I can't remember why (if I ever knew).

Armor compatibility. You get one set of max armor (4 pieces) and transfer it between all 3 characters, rather than having to max 12 difference pieces.

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I have forgotten: why is it necessary to use mults of the same class. I understand THAT it gives an advantage but I can't remember why (if I ever knew).

Once you get one set of high or max-level armour, you instantly have 3 characters at max level if they're all the same class. Which makes running Raids and Nightfalls easier, and so chasing down Exotic weapons easier.

Whereas if you have 3 different classes, you have to find 3 full sets of high level armour, invest XP in all three sets and acquire and spend 3x the materials to fully upgrade them.

I had a moan about level=armour and the whole Light mechanic a few months ago. But one problem at a time. ;)

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I have forgotten: why is it necessary to use mults of the same class. I understand THAT it gives an advantage but I can't remember why (if I ever knew).

Once you get one set of high or max-level armour, you instantly have 3 characters at max level if they're all the same class. Which makes running Raids and Nightfalls easier, and so chasing down Exotic weapons easier.

Whereas if you have 3 different classes, you have to find 3 full sets of high level armour, invest XP in all three sets and acquire and spend 3x the materials to fully upgrade them.

I had a moan about level=armour and the whole Light mechanic a few months ago. But one problem at a time. ;)

In addition it makes finding the gear easier in the first place, since you have three raids per week all giving out your class' armor potentially.

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They used to be really clever.

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I mean, when someone says "Clever Game" everyone in the world thinks Halo, amirite?

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Complete Hard to get another level?

That's interesting.

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because: Destiny ;-)

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Situation: the 'optimal' way to play Destiny in terms of progression/time_spent is to have 3 characters of the same class.

Evidence: the first players to 30/32 were all multi-char-ing with the same class. The first 32 even deleted and re-leveled that class over and over!

Problem: I think this is backwards. It robs players of the experience of the different movement modes, abilities, supers and playstyles that other classes afford the player. Destiny seems less diverse, less interesting, and hence less fun.

Solution: Introduce class-specific quests, class-specific chests & class-specific rewards. So the 'optimal' way to play is to have one of each.

"I think a better solution is to simply allow rewards from activities three times per week per account, rather than once per week per character. Same effect as now essentially, but now you don't have to have two other characters of the same class. I could just have one Hunter and do the stuff three times and not have to worry about switching. I think it's silly the system encourages creating three basically identical characters." - Cody Miller (was right)

I think Cody's solution is not only the best way to negate the advantage of redundant characters and eliminate rolling characters over and over again during the week, but actually improves the experience for all players regardless of the number of characters they have.

If there was one change I could make to Destiny right now, this would be it.

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"I think a better solution is to simply allow rewards from activities three times per week per account, rather than once per week per character. Same effect as now essentially, but now you don't have to have two other characters of the same class. I could just have one Hunter and do the stuff three times and not have to worry about switching. I think it's silly the system encourages creating three basically identical characters." - Cody Miller (was right)

I think Cody's solution is not only the best way to negate the advantage of redundant characters and eliminate rolling characters over and over again during the week, but actually improves the experience for all players regardless of the number of characters they have.

If there was one change I could make to Destiny right now, this would be it.

Of course I'm right :-p

Is your hunter all set at 32? Then just run the raid three times and get three shots at titan armor this week to build up your titan. Much easier and more fun to build up multiple characters.

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"I think a better solution is to simply allow rewards from activities three times per week per account, rather than once per week per character. Same effect as now essentially, but now you don't have to have two other characters of the same class. I could just have one Hunter and do the stuff three times and not have to worry about switching. I think it's silly the system encourages creating three basically identical characters." - Cody Miller (was right)

I think Cody's solution is not only the best way to negate the advantage of redundant characters and eliminate rolling characters over and over again during the week, but actually improves the experience for all players regardless of the number of characters they have.

If there was one change I could make to Destiny right now, this would be it.

That'd make running the Raids and Nightfalls 3x a week less hassle but I don't think it'd make it any more interesting. The phrase 'same effect as now' is the give-away.

Except of course, people who do only have 1 character could now run it 3x a week for 3x the rewards and would wonder why they're being asked to do the same thing over and over again. This game already has a bit of a problem with grinding, I'd rather not add to it.

An easier inventory management system would achieve the 'same effect as now' without destroying the incentive for having multiple characters. I think it'd be more interesting tip it toward multi-class-ing and at least swap roles with your fireteam members if you are going to do it 3x a week.

Cody say's he's 'mastered' the raids, and is bored, but he's only done that as a Hunter (AFAIK). If he and CruelLegacey swapped roles I bet they'd both find it a bit more interesting again. Not that, with weapons, the classes play dramatically differently, but why play down or ignore the variety that is available?

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Get to run things three times for rewards. Whether that's three times on one class or one time on three different classes? You get variety if you want it, or you can triple down on the one you love.

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Cody say's he's 'mastered' the raids, and is bored, but he's only done that as a Hunter (AFAIK). If he and CruelLegacey swapped roles I bet they'd both find it a bit more interesting again. Not that, with weapons, the classes play dramatically differently, but why play down or ignore the variety that is available?

But that's what kills me. I have no armor material for other classes, nor armor. That means if I wanted to play a Warlock for example, I would need to get a lot of hadronic essence (by grinding), then acquire the armor (by grinding), then level it up (by grinding). Too much hassle. I want to grind as little as possible.

Instead of encouraging me to play as 3 classes, the system discourages it.

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Love this idea. To your point, having 3 different classes is loads of fun. I'm really enjoying the specific skills and strengths that each class brings to the table. Unfortunately, I feel like the game is punishing me in every way other than instate gameplay. I need 3 times the armor, 3 times the glimmer, and 3 times the materials over someone who's rolling 3 of the same class. On top of that, I only get 1 chance per week to earn 32 armor for each character, rather than 3 chances per week for those who triple down on a class.

At a certain point, I've made peace with all that. I'm ok with taking the less efficient/more fun approach. But you've made some great suggestions here. It would be nice if Bungie found ways to encourage diversifying our characters.

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When the time comes for a Warlock only raid - I hope the big bad at the end is group of 6 Psions.
(What could possibly go wrong. :P)

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I like the idea of class specific quests, but the real problem is that anything that is class specific means you need three of the same class to maximize your returns. Want all the titan raid gear? Run it three times a weeks with a titan to maximize your chances of getting what you need.

Basically there needs to be no class-specific mechanics attached to advancement to truly make it just as viable to run three different classes.

The big problem is that armor is class-specific and necessary for advancement. This is really a problem with the light level advancement scheme. Every solution I think up that keeps light level requires a redesign of how armor works, like making armor wearable by any class, and any solution that keeps armor class-specific means tying advancement to something other than light levels.

Of course we could just get rid of the armor section in the vault so you couldn't pass armor around, but then there would be a riot.

There could be a token gesture by bungie by eliminating hadronic essense, plasteel plating, and sapphire wire and replacing it with a universal armor parts material. At least then, investing in armor would be class independent.

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I like the idea of class specific quests, but the real problem is that anything that is class specific means you need three of the same class to maximize your returns.

Untrue.

The Vanguard Mentors take it in turns each week to offer a set of class-specific Bounties
The weekly 'complete' flag for these is account-level rather than character-level

This is similar to how Eris' Class-specific Bounties already work (+1 for precedent). Some days she will have a Hunter one, another day it'll be Titan, and then some days it's Warlock. On any given day (Tuesday!), you would need three of the same class to maximise XP/Rep returns - that is true.

BUT - and this is a critical but - over the long run it doesn't matter which class you chose. (temporary RNG weirdness excepted)

Or instead of the lock-out being account level, rewards from Mentor bounties - or quests! - could be limited in a certain range each week. Precedent is Iron Banner and Eris' Urn Quest - once you had filled that Urn up, if you do it again with the same class you're getting a near duplicate. The second Gauntlet awarded would still have the same bonus stats, but slightly different numbers, and only 1 perk would be different. Very little incentive. Just like there is no point re-running Iron Banner with the same class in the same week since the rewards are the same.

Introducing 3 armour upgrade items that are rewarded unequally to the different classes would be changing how armour works. More radically than changing Ascendants to Raidiant Shards. I'll try and break down how this would play out:

Reward 3 materials in ratio: Titan - 2:1:3
Titan 3 times a week will have - 6:3:9
Titan twice, Warlock once - 5:5:7
Titan x1, Warlock x1, Hunter x1 - 6:6:6

If armour requires an equal amount of all these materials/items to be upgraded, then the limiter on progress is whichever material you have the least of. With this particular ratio, a player with 3 different classes would be able to upgrade their armour fully TWICE as fast as another with 3 of the same class.

More extreme ratios would tip the balance further in favour of multi-classing. For example:

Per class - 6:3:1
Same class 3 times - 18:9:3
Two different classes: 13:12:5
Different classes 3 times - 10:10:10

With that ratio, once a player has a full set of armour for 1 class, they could upgrade it more than 3x as quickly by 3-classing. And a 3-classer could upgrade twice as fast as a 2-classer.

This idea could be tied into the 'class-specific-chests' idea, too. i.e. chests that a Hunter can access have rewards that skew towards Sapphire Shards.

Acquiring armour in the first place is a problem that I'm not attempting to address here. I agree that the Class-specific armour materials are a roadblock to starting a new class.

But do you get what I'm saying otherwise?

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The weekly 'complete' flag for these is account-level rather than character-level

I missed this on the first read. It seems like this is the lynch pin for everything, otherwise, you'd still want to run the quest three times with the same character-class. But do we really need another resource and resource cap in this game? It seems like another step toward those mobile games that only allow you so many plays a day unless you purchase some in game box.

Introducing 3 armour upgrade items that are rewarded unequally to the different classes would be changing how armour works. More radically than changing Ascendants to Raidiant Shards. I'll try and break down how this would play out... <snip>

But how do you communicate all this to the player in game terms? It seems rather difficult. I'm not saying it isn't a good idea, just that is probably needs refinement so that it is more streamlined.

This idea could be tied into the 'class-specific-chests' idea, too. i.e. chests that a Hunter can access have rewards that skew towards Sapphire Shards.

Do we really need another material?

But do you get what I'm saying otherwise?

Yes.

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But how do you communicate all this to the player in game terms?

Hah! When has Destiny ever tried to communicate itself to the player? ;)

Fictionalisation isn't a big problem in a game like Destiny. I'll have a stab:

Plasteel Shards are essential elements of the best armour's protective layers. A Titan, with their physical toughness, are the best at bashing it into a stable state before the raw material disintegrates.
Sapphire Shards keep heavy, powerful armour flexible and comfortable to wear. A Hunter's speed allows them to pluck the elements out of the air before they're lost to the wind.
Hadronic Shards are used in the control and shield generation systems of advanced armour. A Warlock's affinity for the subatomic means they are best suited to gathering these elusive materials after defeating the most powerful enemies.

Names are just place-holders, of course.

The Destiny Community seems quite active in disseminating information and providing coordination. Even if something like this was implemented with zero explanation, people would figure out pretty quickly that their class was getting these rewards in a certain ratio, and other classes had different ratios. Especially if it was in Raid or strike situations where you're getting the rewards at the same time as other players in the party.

Do we really need another material?

Cut Hadronic Essense, Plasteel Plating and Sapphire Wire, add a general 'armour parts' material instead. Implement the 3 materials I'm talking about, and the number only goes up by 1, with a strong benefit towards multi-classing. Seems like a fair trade.

Change the way the inventory works too, expand the vault, and it's not much of an issue anyway.

But do you get what I'm saying otherwise?

Yes.

Cool :)

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Encouraging multi-classing with class-specific quests & loot (Destiny)