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On Crota Hard and the nature of Challenges (Destiny)

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, January 29, 2015, 10:05 (3365 days ago)

I really really like what Bungie did with Crota hard, and I know that may be in contrast to a lot of people.

It's sort of had what I've always wanted out of Destiny, and that is a challenge in which you have to scrounge together a solution using the resources that you have and use them creatively. For instance: you can't regenerate health. Big problem. So what do you do? Well, you can use Red Death, Surros, or various armors that regenerate health on orb pickup. Every class has a super that can have some form of healing as an optional perk. So there isn't one cut and dry solution, but you have a choice as to what fits your situation and playstyle. Don't have Red Death or want to keep that slot open for Gjallarhorn? Then use a helmet and grab orbs. Don't have that? Pop your super.

How do you deal with the boomers? Creative titan bubble placement? Have another character pull their aggro? You have options.

I felt like this raid really was a true test of how well you know the game inside and out, rather than Vault of Glass which while great, had a hard mode that was just harder because the enemies were higher level.

I found I was using abilities I never used, and armors I haven;t worn in a long time. I'd like more of that, where each challenge is unique and requires something different than just maxing out your sniper of choice or Gjallarhorn.

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On Crota Hard and the nature of Challenges

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Thursday, January 29, 2015, 10:10 (3365 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I really really like what Bungie did with Crota hard, and I know that may be in contrast to a lot of people.

It's sort of had what I've always wanted out of Destiny, and that is a challenge in which you have to scrounge together a solution using the resources that you have and use them creatively. For instance: you can't regenerate health. Big problem. So what do you do? Well, you can use Red Death, Surros, or various armors that regenerate health on orb pickup. Every class has a super that can have some form of healing as an optional perk. So there isn't one cut and dry solution, but you have a choice as to what fits your situation and playstyle. Don't have Red Death or want to keep that slot open for Gjallarhorn? Then use a helmet and grab orbs. Don't have that? Pop your super.

How do you deal with the boomers? Creative titan bubble placement? Have another character pull their aggro? You have options.

I felt like this raid really was a true test of how well you know the game inside and out, rather than Vault of Glass which while great, had a hard mode that was just harder because the enemies were higher level.

I found I was using abilities I never used, and armors I haven;t worn in a long time. I'd like more of that, where each challenge is unique and requires something different than just maxing out your sniper of choice or Gjallarhorn.

I completely agree in terms of the design of this raid. I've complained about the hard-mode Crota battle, but all my complaints are based around the random and fatal bugs that seem far too common. Our run last night was a testament to how great this battle can be when not crippled by bugs.

Agreed

by Earendil, Thursday, January 29, 2015, 12:32 (3365 days ago) @ Cody Miller

All this talk in the forums about how Completing hard mode is soooo expensive because you need a million heavy ammo synth in order to complete it, is just...annoying. I say that knowing full well that I might be one of those players that may need maxed heavy ammo on every run to have a chance, but hard mode doesn't need it, there are other ways, other strategies.

People complained when hard mode came out that bungie added "nothing to change it up". But they did, because my taking away health and making the enemies harder, on THIS particular map, with these enemies, and that object, new and better strategies are required/feasible. And as you pointed out, there are multiple viable ones. Where as on normal mode there was one strategy that worked well enough that no one really bothered finding anything different.

I think it's a testament to map and objective design that making enemies harder actually changes the way you approach the map and objectives, instead of just needing more bullets and it taking a tiny bit longer.

Oh hell. I just agreed with cody...

by Earendil, Thursday, January 29, 2015, 12:33 (3365 days ago) @ Earendil

...maybe there is a medication I need to be on...

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Agreed

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Thursday, January 29, 2015, 12:39 (3365 days ago) @ Earendil

I wouldn't dismiss the heavy-ammo issues so quickly... when your team spends hours being wiped out by bugs, and your heavy ammo evaporates each time because of another bug, you can easily go through 15+ heavy ammo synths. And so far, there is no known alternative. Heavy ammo is needed to bring down Crota's shield. On normal mode you can maybe get away with Icebreakers, but even then it is barely possible.

That being said, I completely agree in terms of the design of the encounter. I think its fantastic (when everything works properly) :)

Agreed

by Earendil, Thursday, January 29, 2015, 16:40 (3364 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

I wouldn't dismiss the heavy-ammo issues so quickly...

I'm not suggesting it isn't an issue, only that it isn't as big a deal as people make it out to be.

For starters, the bug robs you of what? One or two shots per death. Hopefully you are firing at least that many prior to wiping, so of all the heavy ammo "lost", less than 50% should be due to the bug. The other 50% (or more) is used on Crota and not capitalized on.

when your team spends hours being wiped out by bugs, and your heavy ammo evaporates each time because of another bug, you can easily go through 15+ heavy ammo synths.


If you time it perfectly, using 15 ammo synths would take you 2.5 hours.
Looked at a different way, you should be able to wipe 2 times minimum for every ammo synth used.

Maybe I suggest that, if you and I were better, we'd use fewer ammo synths simply because we don't fail 30 times prior to taking him out?

Yes, if you insist on using heavy ammo, and your fire team isn't the best, and you have the time of day, you can burn through that many ammo synth.

And so far, there is no known alternative. Heavy ammo is needed to bring down Crota's shield. On normal mode you can maybe get away with Icebreakers, but even then it is barely possible.

I've used a heavy ammo synth maybe once to fight Crota. I'll note that I've wiped to him maybe 40 times and beat him 4 times. Yet I rarely (1 or 2 times) go at him with no heavy ammo. As one of those assholes that has a Gjallarhorn, I am required to have heavy ammo though. My solution is simple:

1. After a wipe, if I don't have enough ammo, I switch to my machine gun that increase the chance of heavy ammo dropping
2. Clear out each side of the room
3. Switch back to Gjall
4. Profit.

I rarely see less than 2 ammo packs, and have seen as many as 6. In any case, 95% of the time I end up with more ammo than I lose to the bug. I realize this may not work for everyone, either because the composition of your fire team means you alone are firing rockets, or because you don't have a weapon that increase heavy drop rates. But I point it out to say that there are alternative ways to approach the problem.

Agreed

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Thursday, January 29, 2015, 17:34 (3364 days ago) @ Earendil

You need a minimum of 18 rockets (if its Gjallarhorn and you fire the bare minimum) to down Crota 6 times. We like to be extra safe and fire 4 per down, so that's 24. Add in the Ogres and that's say around 30. Obviously that's spread between 4-6 people, but I need a synth virtually evey run, or at least every other.

Maybe you're just luckier than me on ammo drops.

There's definitely meeit to what you say though. With a good enough team and a good enough strategy the encounter is very doable. My clan 5-manned (with a 31 no less) it this evening in just 4 attempts. Unfortunately a lot of that is luck of the draw with bugs etc.

Agreed

by DreadPirateWes, Thursday, January 29, 2015, 17:18 (3364 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

Use game mechanics to your advantage. Ammo regens if you have none. So...

Step 1: Empty Heavy Ammo (if you have 1 or 2, as you will get a full 7-8 back).

Step 2: Equip Ice breaker

Step 3: Lower your primary ammo to almost empty.

Step 4: Activate the Crystal

Step 5: Empty your primary ammo just before gates open.

Step 6: Shoot enemies with Ice Breaker whilst you have NO primary or heavy ammo.

Step 7: Switch to your preferred Loadout and collect Heavies!

NOTE: if you your primary ammo spawns before killing any enemies it will not work. You need to time emptying your primary ammo so it is empty when you start shooting enemies with ice breaker.

from reddit

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On Crota Hard and the nature of Challenges

by Kahzgul, Thursday, January 29, 2015, 14:20 (3364 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I feel like the Crota encounter meets that mark, but the other three encounters are essentially identical to normal mode but with bigger numbers.

I fully expected hard mode abyss to have no lamps at all.

I thought the bridge would have added difficulty, like also having oracles to kill or something.

And Ir'Yut I thought maybe the balconies would be closed off or something.

Casual Players

by snakegriffin ⌂, MD, Thursday, January 29, 2015, 19:25 (3364 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Is there any hope for casual players who want to give hard mode a try? I don't have the time to grind for weeks and weeks to build up an arsenal of weapons and armor to give myself the choices that it sounds like you need to contribute efficiently.

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