No way to prove incremental skill/power? (Destiny)
I absolutely love the raids, and am much less bothered by many of the things that seem to eat at others. I consider myself blessed :)
But there is one thing that has slowly dawned on me. The hardest raid stage (be that normal or hard) makes for a poor show of incremental improvement. It's also a poor show of consistency in yourself or your team. I believe this makes the raid (or whatever you find hard in Destiny) a lot more tedious, because it's hard to show improvement.
The analogy that comes to mind is playing Tetris. Imagine a game of tetris where the game only increase your score every thousand blocks. It would be significantly harder to figure out based on score if you were getting any better.
Now, I do not believe the raids should be changed. I only use them as an example of something in Destiny that I still fail at. I don't fail at bounties or missions. If the Crucible TrueSkill is doing it's job, I'll never notice improvement in my Crucible game, at least by the numbers. Heck even Nightfall is still doable because I'm a dirty cheating whore of a Sunsinger.
I think the problem is that in all those cases the challenge is either
A) Not hard enough
B) Not incrementally measurable enough
C) Too long of an activity.
Basically, I want something similar to Firefight. And while I'm making wishes, I want the option to select which race I face (or multiples) and whether I have unlimited ammo :)
Firefight, similar to Tetris, is a game you are expected to "lose". The goal then is to see how high of a "score" you can get. I don't care about competing against others in this way, I just want to see my own performance change over time, or that of my teams.
It could even be a little more goal oriented than kill stuff. As an example, I love the lamp section of the new raid. Imagine a "game type" that involves seeing how far down a path you can make it while being mobbed by the enemies. Stick a bunch of blocking Shriekers in the way so people can't simply run it. It doesn't need to be complex, or story driven. Heck, claim that it's a "simulation" to prepare you for the coming wars :)
I will acknowledge that some of these problems come down to my current skill level. Some of you actually are failing at bounties, others are trying to figure out how to shave 30 seconds off of hard mode raids. But I have to figure that a good pit of the community is where I'm at, facing a difficult pass/fail raid, and more or less breezing through most everything else.
Does anyone else feel similarly about the current stock of Destiny challenges? Is there some other way you can see tweaking the existing game to provide smaller more incremental degrees of success? Or do you all feel like the current game satisfies that for you?
No way to prove incremental skill/power?
by Vortech 
, A Fourth Wheel, Monday, February 02, 2015, 18:23 (3373 days ago) @ Earendil
I think there are a number of different ways to quantify and monitor your improvement in skill. You can look at how many times you died. You can look at how long the entire raid took to complete. You can also just get a less qualitative feel for how well it went and how much you had to struggle. I have no doubt I can tell when I'm with a good team on a good night versus a good team on a bad night versus an inexperienced team.
No way to prove incremental skill/power?
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, February 02, 2015, 18:35 (3373 days ago) @ Earendil
Firefight, similar to Tetris, is a game you are expected to "lose".
You are not supposed to LOSE Tetris. You can beat it. Google the endings.
There are measurable places for improvement in the raids.
Vault of Glass:
- Open the door with fewer than 6 people. Reduce the number of players for increased challenge.
- Take the alternate path to the templar and get there before people taking the normal path.
- Defend a conflux as the only guardian at that conflux.
- Defend the confluxes with fewer than 6 people.
- Defeat oracles with all players on the templar platform (no sniper cheese).
- Defeat oracles as the only player on the templar platform (all other guardians are sniping).
- Defeat oracles with fewer than 6 guardians.
- Defeat Templar with fewer than 6 guardians.
- Defeat Templar in fewer teleports (just see how many it takes you to kill him, then pick up the pace).
- Defeat Templar while preventing him from teleporting.
- Complete the gorgon maze as a full pack in one try.
- Kill a gorgon and then complete the gorgon maze.
- Complete the Jumping puzzle without using any of the reappearing platforms.
- Visit the derelect Vex Timegate at the far end of the jumping puzzle.
- Reach the opposite side of the jumping puzzle using the alternate path through the cave.
- Defeat the gatekeeper without using sniper rifles.
- Defeat the gatekeeper using only primary weapons.
- Collect both relics at the same time.
- Collect both relics at the same time with only one player entering each timegate.
- Collect both relics with fewer than 6 players.
- Defeat Aetheon with fewer than 6 players.
- Defeat Aetheon with fewer teleports (see how many you normally take to kill him, then pick up the pace).
- Defeat Aetheon without earning Weapons of Light.
Crota's End:
- Solo the Abyss.
- Solo the Abyss as a non-hunter.
- Complete the bridge with fewer than 6 guardians.
- Solo the bridge.
- Defeat Ir'Yut while killing only 2 shriekers, 2 wizards, and Ir'Yut.
- Defeat Ir'Yut before she begins her liturgy.
- Defeat Ir'Yut with fewer than 6 guardians.
- Defeat Crota with only 2 swords (and, thus, before the ogres spawn).
- Defeat Crota with fewer than 6 guardians.
If you've done all of these, then you're probably too skilled for your own good.
There are measurable places for improvement in the raids.
by dogcow , Hiding from Bob, in the vent core., Tuesday, February 03, 2015, 10:02 (3372 days ago) @ Kahzgul
This looks like a fun list of things to try. I've done many of these, but there are a few that I haven't done and some things that shoudl be on there that aren't.
I've never completed the jumping puzzle by actually using the disappearing platforms. The first time I passed it I was looking for a way to get "over there" (I didn't know it was where you even needed to go) without using the platforms. I think it would be much more difficult for me to do as a hunter (without blade dancing my way over).
Gunslinger Jumping Puzzle
Go to the far right, triple jump, pop golden gun at the end to coast the rest of the way :)
There are measurable places for improvement in the raids.
by Speedracer513 , Dallas, Texas, Tuesday, February 03, 2015, 10:25 (3372 days ago) @ dogcow
This looks like a fun list of things to try. I've done many of these, but there are a few that I haven't done and some things that shoudl be on there that aren't.
I've never completed the jumping puzzle by actually using the disappearing platforms. The first time I passed it I was looking for a way to get "over there" (I didn't know it was where you even needed to go) without using the platforms. I think it would be much more difficult for me to do as a hunter (without blade dancing my way over).
No matter which class I'm using, I always just use the first three platforms to get to the ledge. I never have any trouble with it, and whenever I show it to someone they become amazed and say how much easier it is than the way they had been doing it.
There are measurable places for improvement in the raids.
by Kermit , Raleigh, NC, Wednesday, February 04, 2015, 07:30 (3371 days ago) @ Speedracer513
This looks like a fun list of things to try. I've done many of these, but there are a few that I haven't done and some things that shoudl be on there that aren't.
I've never completed the jumping puzzle by actually using the disappearing platforms. The first time I passed it I was looking for a way to get "over there" (I didn't know it was where you even needed to go) without using the platforms. I think it would be much more difficult for me to do as a hunter (without blade dancing my way over).
No matter which class I'm using, I always just use the first three platforms to get to the ledge. I never have any trouble with it, and whenever I show it to someone they become amazed and say how much easier it is than the way they had been doing it.
I always jump down the lower platform on the right, and then take one jump all the way across. My warlock doesn't seem to enjoy the landing, but he lives, barely.
Jumping puzzle alternate path?
Wait, what? There's another cave you can arrive through?
Yep
by ZackDark , Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Wednesday, February 04, 2015, 08:22 (3371 days ago) @ someotherguy
You have to fall down the cliff by the first chest to reach it.
I went in the first time ever last night. It is gorgeous. Once we got to the Templar area, my friends told me they managed to reach up there from the Templar area once.
Huh?
by dogcow , Hiding from Bob, in the vent core., Wednesday, February 04, 2015, 08:26 (3371 days ago) @ ZackDark
Wait, what? There's another cave you can arrive through?
You have to fall down the cliff by the first chest to reach it.I went in the first time ever last night. It is gorgeous. Once we got to the Templar area, my friends told me they managed to reach up there from the Templar area once.
Wait, are we talking about the alternate (jumpy) path to the templar (which I've always become lost in), or the left-side cave in the jumping puzzle (that I've actually never seen myself)? One of these VoG runs we should take these alternate paths, or at least look at them.
Oh, my bad
by ZackDark , Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Wednesday, February 04, 2015, 08:38 (3371 days ago) @ dogcow
Does that mean there's another path from the Gorgon's Labyrinth to the jumping puzzle?
Left Side?
by dogcow , Hiding from Bob, in the vent core., Wednesday, February 04, 2015, 09:18 (3371 days ago) @ ZackDark
So, when you get to the jumping puzzle, you can go straight onto the disappearing platforms, right to leap the whole expanse, & I think you can go left for another starting point. I believe I saw a video of someone using the fist-of-havoc to cross the expanse from somewhere on the left.
Not from gorgon lab, just when you get to the chasm, go left
There's a cave in the wall to the left when you first get the chasm of the jumping puzzle. You can go through it, and then drop down to a rock outcropping below. From there you can jump around the cliff face to the left (be careful, one of the ledges is slippery and you have to very quickly jump off of it), eventually being close enough to jump to the non-disappearing platform near the derelect timegate. From there, it's two or three disappearing platforms to the far side. One of those disappearing platforms is also close enough to the derelect timegate that you can jump to that and check it out, if you like.
Not from gorgon lab, just when you get to the chasm, go left
by Blackt1g3r , Login is from an untrusted domain in MN, Wednesday, February 04, 2015, 09:30 (3371 days ago) @ Kahzgul
Makes you wonder if there might be a special chest for taking the alternate jumping puzzle route? Surely someone already tried that though.
Not from gorgon lab, just when you get to the chasm, go left
I've gone that way several times and found nothing. Doesn't mean it isn't there. But I haven't found it if it is.
Huh?
by Blackt1g3r , Login is from an untrusted domain in MN, Wednesday, February 04, 2015, 09:31 (3371 days ago) @ dogcow
The alternate path to the template is difficult to get to and if you screw up you can get stuck in a respawn loop over nothing.