Creating a world doesn't require story - Thoughts on Destiny (Destiny)

by Earendil, Friday, February 06, 2015, 16:40 (3375 days ago)

This will be my version of a critique that I'd like to get off my chest. Some part of me hopes Bungie will read it and bend Destiny to my desires, but mostly I'm interested in writing it down and seeing what people think.

Little Disclaimer
I'm not a writer, I've never stayed in a Holiday Inn. I believe that the Grimoire should exist to enhance a story, not to correct or make a story. Thus, everything that follows is my person feelings about the world as it exists without the Grimoire. Oh yeah, and it's a little disorganized.

World Creating
My favorite stories, regardless of medium, are those that create a world. In order to create a realistic world, you must impart to the reader/audience/player that there are things they don't know, there are mysteries out there they may or may not solve.

Two of my favorite worlds of all time are those of The Lord of the Rings, and Dune. Both worlds convey a sense of a large amount of mystery and power "out there" that you should be weary of. They don't bother to explain everything (at least not until way into the story), and they certainly don't beat you over the head with it. Instead you are forced to explore, ponder, wonder, and connect the dots to figure out what is out there. You might even have to use your imagination.

A good world doesn't even require a good story, or a complete story. I play devil's advocate around here a lot because I beleive the Destiny story isn't finished, and that there is hope for the story. It would be like reading the The Fellowship of the Ring (the 1st book) and stopping. You'd have a sucky story, something that amounted to a walk in the woods. However after the first book you have a sense that there is a large world, with lots of power, most of it hiding, and not all of which has picked a side yet. The stage is set.

Where I believe world builders often fail (at least in written form) is when they try and give too much detail. They try and put it all in a nice understandable neat box with a bow, instead of the messy and confusing pandoras box that the reality we live in actually is. This is however not what the Destiny world suffers from.

Bungie's World
I think this is what Bungie tried to do, they tried to start a bunch of threads that over time they could unravel at will, or leave open for the mystery of it all. Yet instead of failing in the traditional way, I think they left too much out of the world. I don't think they opened enough up. The story need not be good or complete at this point, but I think the world of Destiny needs to be. A complete world gives an emotional context to the little stories you tell.

Your ghost gives you lots of things to wonder about, lots of threads that could be pulled, but I feel your Ghost never goes far enough. Take this for example:
"Humans haven't set foot on the moon in hundreds of years" leaves a question open, that's a thread, but it's not a thread with much gravity yet. It doesn't convey the importance of the situation. Did we stop going because Guardians are allergic to moon dust? Purely because of Tower leadership philosophical disagreement? Or because something we don't understand killed a thousand* guardians and we really aren't sure if it's still there or not?

The Chess Piece Analogy
The book Dune is famous for conveying 1/10 of 10 different plots. Everything is plots within plots. You can not read that book hoping to understand everything you read. You are not meant to understand the motives of the different players until the end, or more likely until you've read it a 3rd time. But there is never a doubt that, despite how much or how little you know about the different entities, that they ARE players in the game. They may not be the Queen, but they are certainly a Rook.

How to Identify a Chess Piece
The primary dialog does convey to us that there are these things out there that we don't understand or know. Some are clear enemies, some are friendly, and others are neutral or hostile. But few have been given the sort of power (either through myth or evidence) for us to really be concerned with. And very few are given much respect by the entities we trust and know to be powerful, e.g. The Speaker, out fellow powerful Guardians, or our enemy.

Oh, We Do Have A Chess Piece
The primary exception to my complaint above are the Outcast. The cut scene played as we approach the Reef in a ship speaks wonders to the mystery and power of the Outcast. They openly oppose any ship that approaches them? That means they aren't really hiding, and in fact their demeanor is one of cocky arrogance. We can surmise that The Fallen rarely mess with them, or if they do they make deals with them. The Fallen thus respect them for some reason. That alone says that we as the Tower should be interested in knowing more about them, so as to figure out if they are friend or foe. They are an obvious sleeping giant, a piece worthy of being on the board. And none of that requires a story, none of it requires answers.

Not a Chess Piece
Contrast that with that Exo that never has any time to talk. All I get from her is that she might be as combat worthy as a Guardian...maybe. She does a lot of running for someone that we're supposed to respect. She has nothing we desire except maybe a longer range teleportation and a form of cloak, but that's it afaik. She's a non-entity. I could get a report that the Exo died to a Cabal patrol and I've have to say "So what?". She promised nothing as a friend or foe, she gave no indication that she was a major player in the battle to come. She wasn't on the chess board. And worse than not being on it, she visits you at the tower, which means that the Tower acknowledges her presence and doesn't bother to say anything about it. This only emphasizes the idea that she's a non-entity. I want to care that she's in the story, but I don't know why.

This same thing goes for the Nine. It was only recently that I found a scrap of a clue that the Nine might be relevant to my universe, and half the reason it's good info is because of where it comes from.
"If only the Nine would help." - The Speaker
That's someone that we respect telling us to respect the Nine. That's the speaker telling us the Nine are on the chess board, they are players. But that line is buried as something the speaker-as-a-vendor says, and we have little reason to hang out around him. And as something he mumbles to himself it really doesn't have the same oomph! that we need.

Besides a snippet from the Speaker, we are left with myths about the Nine so ambiguous that the best we can say is that they probably aren't a bunch of stay-at-home-parents that got scared, bought a ship, and took off to hide behind one of Jupiter's moons. There is little indication that they are anything but scared, dead, or simple merchants. They seek to interact but only indirectly and through trade.

I'm Not Asking For Answers
While I absolutely do not want Bungie to explain all of these entities, I do want them to put more information front and center so that we get the sense that there are sleeping giants out there that if woken will, for good or bad, have an impact on our solar system. Think Ents in TLOTR. I want to both fear and desire to run into them in the Universe, I want to care about them and their motives. I want to suspect that I'm not the biggest badass in the universe, and right now I think that.

And how about all the Guardians that may or may not be a part of the Vangard? Are we ever lead to believe that there are Guardians out there like Eris? Ones out there like Toland that we should be cautious if we bump into? I don't think we are. In TLOTR and Dune we start with the myths of Elves and Fremen, and then we are quickly given little examples that give the myths plausibility.

What I wouldn't give to run a mission where off in the distance you see a Guardian that you assume is just like you, only to watch them obliterate the enemy with an ability we've never seen, and then have them vanish before we can catch up to them. How powerful of an open mystery would that be? Would that not
A) Scare you a little
B) Cause you to seek out answers

How many Grimoire cards would that bring to life if you experienced it? How much more anticipation would that bring?

Thoughts On The Grimoire
The Grimoire is great for filling in detail, bringing characters to life, but it does a poor job of building suspense. Do you know when I found out we lost a thousand guardians on the moon? AFTER I played through every moon mission, and spent a lot of time there feeling not threatened. The first time I heard Eris talk about how scary the moon is my gut reaction was "Pansy, the moon is nothing". The Grimoire should promote and multiply the feelings they game has already solidly conveyed.

Other actors in the story such as the The Traveler have been given solid respect and fear without revealing their mystery. Same goes for Rasputin, but only after the expansion. Prior to the expansion and reading the Grimoire, I thought Rasputin was an annoying** AI, not a possible HAL figure.

There, I feel so much better having written that down :)

TL;DR
Books may screw up world building by beating you over the head with answers to every question they ask, but Bungie swung too far in the opposite direction by rarely asking the questions, and never providing front and center the gravity of the situation. I do not fear, respect, or desire to meet any of the other entities, because I do not believe them to be main players in my struggle against the darkness.


*Speaking of a thousand, is that a significant number of Guardians? How many do we have left, 100,000 Guardians or 100? If you ask me, I've only ever counted 16 including myself.

**Actually that's not entirely true. I did fear him, but only because he is an AI in a Bungie game, and those mother huggers are always causing trouble.

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Creating a world doesn't require story - Thoughts on Destiny

by Kahzgul, Friday, February 06, 2015, 22:08 (3375 days ago) @ Earendil

Well said.

The world building is atrocious in this game. None of the "characters" you encounter have any personality other than the Cryptarch, and he's a prick.

The Ghost tells you we know nothing about the Vex, but then has mysteriously heard legends of the Black Garden. He also tells you to hide from the Cabal because nothing gets through their Exclusion Zone, and then you totally kill them all and get through the zone like no big deal. The whole game is full of people telling you "no one has done X (before, in hundreds of years, and lived, etc.)" and then you just kind of go and do it, no big deal. Also, the design of the world counteracts the thin storytelling: No one has ever made it through the Exclusion Zone, but when you get through, there are totally guardians patrolling the areas on the other side. There are clearly other Guardians on the moon. And so forth.

In terms of how the "worlds" feel, the only real difference between Earth, Mars, Venus, and the Moon is the color scheme and who you get to kill there. But the different races are all functionally the same. As far as the story is concerned, they're all just "evil" and need to die. No sense of history. No scope given to the tasks at hand.

Hell, at the end of the very first mission, an Archon appears and Ghost says, "We'll come back when you're ready." Then, in the very next mission, you go back and kill the Archon. Not only are you recycling map areas way too quickly, but you're also diffusing any tension you may have built. Oh, I guess I am ready to kill any big baddie I see. No fear, no anticipation, no tension at all.

And the game does this constantly. "A triptych of Cryptids (or whatever he calls them)... said to be uncrackable" and then Ghost cracks them. Boring and uninteresting, and utterly without drama.

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Creating a world doesn't require story - Thoughts on Destiny

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Friday, February 06, 2015, 23:02 (3375 days ago) @ Kahzgul

The Master Chief obliterated a Covenant armada... and the Flood... and he was just getting started. That we were able to penetrate areas that other Guardians weren't is because we're that kind of hero-level special. Yeah, there's not nearly enough reason given as to why we were able to accomplish so much, but having the player character be awesome isn't in itself game or story breaking.

Creating a world doesn't require story - Thoughts on Destiny

by Dagoonite, Somewhere in Iowa, lost in a cornfield., Friday, February 06, 2015, 23:12 (3375 days ago) @ Kahzgul

I actually agree with everything you said except for the first paragraph.

The world building is atrocious in this game. None of the "characters" you encounter have any personality other than the Cryptarch, and he's a prick.

Cayle-6 has plenty of personality, as much as Sgt. Johnson did in the first two Halo games. (If you include supplementary materials, then Johnson wins just because of the massive boost to his characterization in First Strike alone.) Eris gets plenty of characterization, especially at the end of the Urn quest, and damn is she creepy in that. Both get more characterization than Miranda Keyes ever did. Hell, Banshee-22 gets gobs more than her. I think he's my favorite vendor. They even work his story into his design -- he looks as much like he has a thousand yard stare as you can with an Exo.

I'm not saying that they didn't drop the ball with most characters. Eva has more characterization than Commander Zavala. Eva. And how often do you interact with her?!

I also don't get the whole "Cryptarch is a jerk" thing people are saying. The RNG? Total jerk. The characterization? I just don't see it. Lemmie explain how I see him.

He's a researcher that's constantly being provided with the most wonderful data in the universe. Put him with other Cryptarchs and you'd practically hear them squee with delight over things. A man very, very focused on the data and the wonders it holds. But he also knows that you can't spend your life in the Archives, as you miss out on the contextual details, so he deals with the people who bring him things.

Those people who bring him the engrams? He values and likes them. Interact with him as a Hunter and you'll occasionally hear him say "You Hunters bring me such wonderful things!" Kudos to the VA on that one, because he sounds professional yet excited. Leave as a Titan and he'll ask you to give his regards to the enemy. IE, "PUNCH THEM IN TEH FAEC!!111!!fifteen!!!"

Often, he offers words of appreciation for the engrams you grab. "You don't see many of those any more, even in our vaults!" Yeah, he issues surprise when you do certain things, but I take it more as musing surprise than sneering surprise.

To summarize, I think that most people think the Cryptarch is a dick because they're misplacing their annoyance with the RNG rather than he actually is one.

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The crypdick

by Kahzgul, Saturday, February 07, 2015, 18:03 (3374 days ago) @ Dagoonite

The Cryptarch has given me about a hundred Rustburner gloves. Every goddamn time does so, he says "Aren't many of those around." What a dick! There's obviously scads of them since he's shoveling them off to me every chance he can.

He likes to tell me "nothing is impenetrable" when I get a cloak. Well duh. It's a cloak.

Off the cuff, he'll just ask me if I speak German. I'm a robot, dude. A literal killing machine. Why on earth would you - oh. OH. You're trolling me. Dick.

And then he has that smug little chuckle. God I wish I could melee in the tower just so I could slap him. I'd shard an exotic for the chance.

Hey, level 31 hunter, you just leveled up some reputation with me. Here's two blue engrams I know you don't need. No, no, they're on me. Enjoy your 58 glimmer and 4 sapphire wire.

God how I hate him.

It may be sleep dep and just finishing a raid...

by Dagoonite, Somewhere in Iowa, lost in a cornfield., Saturday, February 07, 2015, 20:22 (3374 days ago) @ Kahzgul

But I laughed far too hard at that.

I can totally understand the frustration, but come on dude! Maybe you were a German-built robot killing machine! It's not like you have your maker's stamp on your forehead. I mean, they put the Audi emblem on the chest of Exos. How's he supposed to know at a glance? Asking that way is much better than asking you to strip.

I'm pretty sure he learned that lesson the hard way.

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Ich spreche Deutsch!

by Kahzgul, Saturday, February 07, 2015, 22:31 (3374 days ago) @ Dagoonite

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Then help him SO HE SHUTS UP ABOUT IT!

by Dagoonite, Somewhere in Iowa, lost in a cornfield., Sunday, February 08, 2015, 22:45 (3373 days ago) @ Kahzgul

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The crypdick

by scarab @, Saturday, February 07, 2015, 23:30 (3374 days ago) @ Kahzgul

The number of times he gave me a strange coin and said, "I pity the enemy who has to face you with that".

Yeh, cause I could throw it in his face and totally put his eye out.

The Tower is so lazy, it's like they didn't even try.

To be fair...

by Dagoonite, Somewhere in Iowa, lost in a cornfield., Sunday, February 08, 2015, 22:59 (3373 days ago) @ scarab

There are two ways to take that.

1) You've just slogged through countless agents of the Darkness and have finally gotten to go back home. You've got this here engram and are excited to get something awesome from it. Visions of an Icebreaker float through your head. You hand it to the Cryptarch, a tired yet hopeful expression on your face. He decodes and forms it, only to find... a strange coin. He looks at you, a Guardian, an absolute badass who could break a normal person like a twig. A person who has faced terrors he can't even imagine on a daily basis. He knows that you're hoping for something awe-inspiring, and all that he can offer is one stinking coin.

And he gets a vision in his head. Of you staring at that strange coin in silence for a long moment before something in your head goes brokedy. Of you gripping that coin firmly and getting back on your ship. Of you heading back into that battlefield where you had gotten the engram, the battlefield where the agents of the Darkness are already converging again. He sees you as pure, unbridled fury fills your eyes. And you charge into them, ignoring all incoming fire. You jam your strange coin into the first monster's eye, and then punch it so hard that the coin rattles around inside their skull, liquifying their brains. You retrieve the coin, and in your rage-fueled rampage, you obliterate all your foes in ways that are indescribable. Because they gave you one. Stupid. Coin.

He pities those foes indeed.

2) He assumes that your enemy was only armed with a Strange Coin. Imagine the poor Dreg trying to fight you, armed with only a coin. YEAH. Pity that poor, pathetic creature.

Of course, in my headcanon, he has dementia, so... Really, if you think about him like that, his nonsense lines are kind of tragic. He's too valuable to the Cryptarchs to force him to retire, but his dementia makes him a liability in the Archives, so they promoted him to the Tower. Folks put up with his nonsense because they remember how good he once was, and the sheer knowledge that he has, and to see him have fallen so far...

It's the cryptarch who is in danger of being coinskulled!

by scarab @, Monday, February 09, 2015, 11:22 (3372 days ago) @ Dagoonite

- No text -

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triptych of hive runes?

by dogcow @, Hiding from Bob, in the vent core., Sunday, February 08, 2015, 17:25 (3373 days ago) @ Kahzgul

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Said to be uncrackable!

by Kahzgul, Monday, February 09, 2015, 14:40 (3372 days ago) @ dogcow

And yet it takes longer for Ghost to open a damn door.

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