How should Bungie alter the way special ammo works in PvP? (Destiny)
by CyberKN 
, Oh no, Destiny 2 is bad, Monday, April 06, 2015, 21:13 (3310 days ago)
PVP Ammunition – The Crucible team wants to change the way ammo crates dictate the flow of a battle.
This is the fifth and final point Deej set up in his BWU forecast a few weeks ago, and we'll probably hear about it on Thursday.
Personally, I would love to see the PvP game place a bigger emphasis on primary weapons. As it is, Special ammo crates are littered around the battlefield like candy, so you're rarely without a stocked-up Shotgun/Sniper/Fusion rifle.
Snipers are the biggest reason I had issues with First Light and Bastion. As the game currently is, Shotguns are incredibly dominant, even after two nerfs.
Preferably, Ammo for these weapons will be limited to the same degree that Heavy is- because that's what they are: Power weapons. Things your team would fight to hold the spawn of in Halo.
Or, maybe you spawn into a new match with a full reserve, and that reserve is persistent through deaths, but that's all the ammo you get- so you have to decide when it's most crucial to spend it (this would also make exotics like Invective and Ice Breaker even more valuable).
What's everyone's preferences/predictions?
Nerfing special ammo makes the primary weapon meta boring.
PVP Ammunition – The Crucible team wants to change the way ammo crates dictate the flow of a battle.
This is the fifth and final point Deej set up in his BWU forecast a few weeks ago, and we'll probably hear about it on Thursday.Personally, I would love to see the PvP game place a bigger emphasis on primary weapons. As it is, Special ammo crates are littered around the battlefield like candy, so you're rarely without a stocked-up Shotgun/Sniper/Fusion rifle.
Snipers are the biggest reason I had issues with First Light and Bastion. As the game currently is, Shotguns are incredibly dominant, even after two nerfs.
Preferably, Ammo for these weapons will be limited to the same degree that Heavy is- because that's what they are: Power weapons. Things your team would fight to hold the spawn of in Halo.
Or, maybe you spawn into a new match with a full reserve, and that reserve is persistent through deaths, but that's all the ammo you get- so you have to decide when it's most crucial to spend it (this would also make exotics like Invective and Ice Breaker even more valuable).
What's everyone's preferences/predictions?
There's a reason you listed first light and bastion as an issue for snipers: those are some of the only maps where the sniper has long sight lines and an advantage. Shotguns are popular on smaller maps. These weapons are the right tool for those maps, but they have primary weapon counters. A scout can give a sniper a run for their money. Handcannons do equal work on shotgun users.
I think messing with special ammo is going to change the loadout meta drastically; you'll need to be much more reliant on a primary, and as a result on given maps we'll see more homogeneity for which primaries are used. If you can't hold or get sniper ammo, you'll be much more inclined to use an SR on Bastion; if you can't find shotgun ammo, you'll have to have an AR or HC on Asylum. I generally dislike that idea; the current meta allows people a more customizable loadout for their playstyle, and encourages variety.
I guess I don't see the problem with so much special weapon ammo. Everyone can have one: it's not like some players get a shotgun and some don't. Just my two cents.
The real problem are those exotic handcannons.
Nerfing special ammo makes the primary weapon meta boring.
by Claude Errera , Monday, April 06, 2015, 21:40 (3310 days ago) @ iconicbanana
The real problem are those exotic handcannons.
Shut your whore mouth.
Nerfing special ammo makes the primary weapon meta boring.
The real problem are those exotic handcannons.
Shut your whore mouth.
I also think they should remove heavy ammo entirely and I never wait for my teammates before I pop it.
Nerfing special ammo makes the primary weapon meta boring.
by Claude Errera , Monday, April 06, 2015, 21:51 (3310 days ago) @ iconicbanana
The real problem are those exotic handcannons.
Shut your whore mouth.
I also think they should remove heavy ammo entirely and I never wait for my teammates before I pop it.
You're a terrible, terrible person.
Not an ounce of remorse.
The real problem are those exotic handcannons.
Shut your whore mouth.
I also think they should remove heavy ammo entirely and I never wait for my teammates before I pop it.
You're a terrible, terrible person.
Not an ounce of remorse.
by Claude Errera , Monday, April 06, 2015, 21:58 (3310 days ago) @ iconicbanana
The real problem are those exotic handcannons.
Shut your whore mouth.
I also think they should remove heavy ammo entirely and I never wait for my teammates before I pop it.
You're a terrible, terrible person.
Heh. I had a game last week where this guy TOTALLY had my number. He killed me on spawn 4 times running - and the fourth kill I saw him get a Merciless. So I was 4 of his 5-kill streak.
I just wanted to go hide in a corner. :)
He probably felt more like:
Heh. I had a game last week where this guy TOTALLY had my number. He killed me on spawn 4 times running - and the fourth kill I saw him get a Merciless. So I was 4 of his 5-kill streak.
I just wanted to go hide in a corner. :)
Bullshot!
by Claude Errera , Monday, April 06, 2015, 22:10 (3310 days ago) @ iconicbanana
- No text -
Nerfing special ammo makes the primary weapon meta boring.
by Korny , Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Monday, April 06, 2015, 21:44 (3310 days ago) @ iconicbanana
The real problem are those exotic handcannons.
The minute you get a Hawkmoon, you won't be annoyed by dying to one.
Because you'll understand. You'll know what power you wield...
Ha!
The real problem are those exotic handcannons.
The minute you get a Hawkmoon, you won't be annoyed by dying to one.Because you'll understand. You'll know what power you wield...
We don't have to die to hawkmoon. #360masterrace
Nerfing special ammo makes the primary weapon meta boring.
by Funkmon , Tuesday, April 07, 2015, 00:30 (3309 days ago) @ iconicbanana
That makes a lot of sense. I never thought of it that way. I do instinctively kinda vary my range with my guns anyway, and if I had no special ammo, I'd only seek encounters at a certain range.
How should Bungie alter the way special ammo works in PvP?
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, April 06, 2015, 22:21 (3310 days ago) @ CyberKN
Snipers are the biggest reason I had issues with First Light and Bastion. As the game currently is, Shotguns are incredibly dominant, even after two nerfs.
The issue is not shotguns at large, but it is with shotguns with lots of range and the shot package perk. I think getting rid of shot package alone would be exactly enough to more balance shotguns.
Preferably, Ammo for these weapons will be limited to the same degree that Heavy is- because that's what they are: Power weapons. Things your team would fight to hold the spawn of in Halo.
The large maps in Destiny are set up so that you can traverse them without being exposed to snipers. They all have interiors or passageways to use. Snipers do not dominate. In the smaller maps, there are a limited amount of areas where they are useful.
In my experience, snipers are far weaker than shotguns and fusion rifles overall. This is from both ends of the gun.
Get rid of shot package, and slightly decrease the amount of ammo you get from green packs. That's all Bungie should do.
Location/Location/Location
Right now special ammo is convieniently placed around the map. You can't control it, it is just a resource for the team.
If you placed it more dynamically between the teams, it would encourage a bit more risk taking. The downside of course is people could run out and not get any, and suffer for it as they face shotguns/snipers/fusion rifles with primaries.
A stopgap would be to move the ammo crate spawns more towards the center of the maps, where there is lots of action. This rewards the aggressive players.
Also, there is a large variation in shotgun ranges, which really make just a handful OP versus the rest.
How should Bungie alter the way special ammo works in PvP?
by Ragashingo , Official DBO Cryptarch, Monday, April 06, 2015, 23:34 (3309 days ago) @ CyberKN
If they deprive me of special ammo I'll just pull out my Invective or Icebreaker. Other than that I'm gonna wait to see what Bungie says before commenting further.
Special weapons are an important counter to uber-primaries
Personally, I would love to see the PvP game place a bigger emphasis on primary weapons. As it is, Special ammo crates are littered around the battlefield like candy, so you're rarely without a stocked-up Shotgun/Sniper/Fusion rifle.
Snipers are the biggest reason I had issues with First Light and Bastion. As the game currently is, Shotguns are incredibly dominant, even after two nerfs.
Preferably, Ammo for these weapons will be limited to the same degree that Heavy is- because that's what they are: Power weapons. Things your team would fight to hold the spawn of in Halo.
Look, I'm happy for everyone with Thorn, Last Word, Hawkmoon, Mythoclast (of old), and whatever other super PVP primaries there are, but people need ways to counter.
Great primaries wreck the balance of PVP, period. That's fine, as this is sorta how Destiny wants to define itself. But it helps that there are a lot of options for people less...blessed to make up for it.
With my plain old Devil You Know, I lose every single battle against any of the above mentioned primaries. Or, so it seems. At least I know I can stick a shotgun in someone's chest and kill them. I barely notice snipers.
Yeah, exotic weapon balance is PvP's real problem. *edits
Personally, I would love to see the PvP game place a bigger emphasis on primary weapons. As it is, Special ammo crates are littered around the battlefield like candy, so you're rarely without a stocked-up Shotgun/Sniper/Fusion rifle.
Snipers are the biggest reason I had issues with First Light and Bastion. As the game currently is, Shotguns are incredibly dominant, even after two nerfs.
Preferably, Ammo for these weapons will be limited to the same degree that Heavy is- because that's what they are: Power weapons. Things your team would fight to hold the spawn of in Halo.
Look, I'm happy for everyone with Thorn, Last Word, Hawkmoon, Mythoclast (of old), and whatever other super PVP primaries there are, but people need ways to counter.Great primaries wreck the balance of PVP, period. That's fine, as this is sorta how Destiny wants to define itself. But it helps that there are a lot of options for people less...blessed to make up for it.
With my plain old Devil You Know, I lose every single battle against any of the above mentioned primaries. Or, so it seems. At least I know I can stick a shotgun in someone's chest and kill them. I barely notice snipers.
They've been nerfing entire classes based on the performance of the exotic variants of those classes, and it's ultimately led to the necessity to use OP exotic weapons that don't get nerfed enough. I don't get why, because they've shown they can fix individual weapon issues.
Look at the HC crucible range nerf that just happened. It didn't actually make the exotics less viable; it just made rare/legendary HC's less viable. Suros is still usable in crucible, but look at everything that isn't a vanquisher/grim citizen. Silvered Hushwinds aren't really cutting it anymore.
The Thorn pre-buff, with less bullets and less DOT strength, was probably where exotics should be; unique, but not necessarily better. I think Cruel is ultimately right when he says we need separate balancing for crucible/PvE; it will provide a way to balance the exotic advantage, otherwise you force people to use specific exotics they don't necessarily want to.
Ultimately, breaking apart PvP/PvE weapon balance would allow bungie to nerf specific over powered weapons specifically in crucible, and allow people to choose a greater variety of weapons and loadouts. And I think variety is one of Crucible's greatest strengths.
Yeah, exotic weapon balance is PvP's real problem.
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, April 07, 2015, 16:26 (3309 days ago) @ iconicbanana
Look at the HC crucible range nerf that just happened. It didn't actually make the exotics less viable; it just made rare/legendary HC's less viable.
I barely notice the range nerf. All it did was make send it even better. I use my Devil You Know all the time in crucible; it's not any less viable than it was.
The Thorn pre-buff, with less bullets and less DOT strength, was probably where exotics should be; unique, but not necessarily better.
Thorn has to kill in two headshots, or else why use it over a legendary hand cannon? The high DoT is key to that. If the DoT doesn't kill after two shots, it's a useless perk, since 3 shots would be required to kill, but any other hand cannon can do that anyway! There is no way to make thorn's perk 'unique, but not necessarily better". It is either better, or worthless. Worse than worthless since you sacrificed an exotic slot for a gun that would perform the same as a legendary.
Yeah, exotic weapon balance is PvP's real problem.
Look at the HC crucible range nerf that just happened. It didn't actually make the exotics less viable; it just made rare/legendary HC's less viable.
I barely notice the range nerf. All it did was make send it even better. I use my Devil You Know all the time in crucible; it's not any less viable than it was.
Provided you have send it.
The Thorn pre-buff, with less bullets and less DOT strength, was probably where exotics should be; unique, but not necessarily better.
Thorn has to kill in two headshots, or else why use it over a legendary hand cannon? The high DoT is key to that. If the DoT doesn't kill after two shots, it's a useless perk, since 3 shots would be required to kill, but any other hand cannon can do that anyway!
1. There is still going to be some scenario where it will kill where a DYK wouldn't.
2. If it's the same as any other legendary that's a good thing.
There is no way to make thorn's perk 'unique, but not necessarily better". It is either better, or worthless. Worse than worthless since you sacrificed an exotic slot for a gun that would perform the same as a legendary.
Balanced correctly, every exotic is unique but not necessarily better. And at that point, you aren't wasting an exotic slot.
Yeah, exotic weapon balance is PvP's real problem.
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, April 07, 2015, 16:40 (3309 days ago) @ iconicbanana
1. There is still going to be some scenario where it will kill where a DYK wouldn't.
There is no situation I can think of other than what we have now, where that could be the case. Let's say you make it so the DoT kills if you get three BODY shots. Well, Timur's lash can do that by default. Fail. A legendary is going to match or beat it in every situation except the current one.
2. If it's the same as any other legendary that's a good thing.
That would defeat the entire purpose of the perk, and it being an exotic. If that were true, you be a FOOL to use thorn, when you could use your exotic slot for something else. The DoT has to actually manifest itself in some way so as to be useful, else you are just using to the gun to watch people glow green.
Because kill times are so quick, damage over time needs to be the way it is for Thorn to be effective. Bungie is stuck with this one. The problem is lack of imagination with regards to exotics in Destiny. Exotics should have been fewer in number, but more exotic in their function.
Yeah, exotic weapon balance is PvP's real problem.
by CyberKN , Oh no, Destiny 2 is bad, Tuesday, April 07, 2015, 16:42 (3309 days ago) @ Cody Miller
1. There is still going to be some scenario where it will kill where a DYK wouldn't.
There is no situation I can think of other than what we have now, where that could be the case. Let's say you make it so the DoT kills if you get three BODY shots. Well, Timur's lash can do that by default. Fail. A legendary is going to match or beat it in every situation except the current one.
Timur's Lash has a much slower RoF though. With Thorn, you could quickly dish out the pain, then retreat back to cover while your DoT snags the kill.
Yeah, exotic weapon balance is PvP's real problem.
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, April 07, 2015, 16:45 (3309 days ago) @ CyberKN
1. There is still going to be some scenario where it will kill where a DYK wouldn't.
There is no situation I can think of other than what we have now, where that could be the case. Let's say you make it so the DoT kills if you get three BODY shots. Well, Timur's lash can do that by default. Fail. A legendary is going to match or beat it in every situation except the current one.
Timur's Lash has a much slower RoF though. With Thorn, you could quickly dish out the pain, then retreat back to cover while your DoT snags the kill.
99% of the time you'd be shot 3 times before the DoT killed your target, and if you just keep shooting to land a 4th and kill them immediately, it's not relevant anyway.
Things are different on paper than they are in the field.
Yeah, exotic weapon balance is PvP's real problem.
by CyberKN , Oh no, Destiny 2 is bad, Tuesday, April 07, 2015, 16:48 (3309 days ago) @ Cody Miller
1. There is still going to be some scenario where it will kill where a DYK wouldn't.
There is no situation I can think of other than what we have now, where that could be the case. Let's say you make it so the DoT kills if you get three BODY shots. Well, Timur's lash can do that by default. Fail. A legendary is going to match or beat it in every situation except the current one.
Timur's Lash has a much slower RoF though. With Thorn, you could quickly dish out the pain, then retreat back to cover while your DoT snags the kill.
99% of the time you'd be shot 3 times before the DoT killed your target, and if you just keep shooting to land a 4th and kill them immediately, it's not relevant anyway.Things are different on paper than they are in the field.
Claude's right. You DO have a problem with absolutes.
Try changing 99% to 25% and then we're getting closer to anecdotal metrics.
Yeah, exotic weapon balance is PvP's real problem.
by Speedracer513 , Dallas, Texas, Tuesday, April 07, 2015, 17:09 (3309 days ago) @ Cody Miller
1. There is still going to be some scenario where it will kill where a DYK wouldn't.
There is no situation I can think of other than what we have now, where that could be the case. Let's say you make it so the DoT kills if you get three BODY shots. Well, Timur's lash can do that by default. Fail. A legendary is going to match or beat it in every situation except the current one.
Timur's Lash has a much slower RoF though. With Thorn, you could quickly dish out the pain, then retreat back to cover while your DoT snags the kill.
99% of the time you'd be shot 3 times before the DoT killed your target, and if you just keep shooting to land a 4th and kill them immediately, it's not relevant anyway.Things are different on paper than they are in the field.
You clearly do not use Thorn ever. It is much better than you're making it sound.
Yeah, exotic weapon balance is PvP's real problem.
1. There is still going to be some scenario where it will kill where a DYK wouldn't.
There is no situation I can think of other than what we have now, where that could be the case. Let's say you make it so the DoT kills if you get three BODY shots. Well, Timur's lash can do that by default. Fail. A legendary is going to match or beat it in every situation except the current one.
Provided the encounter lasts 2 seconds, and no one hunts cover, and it isn't a long range battle, sure. In your ideal situation, Timur's Lash wins.
2. If it's the same as any other legendary that's a good thing.
when you could use your exotic slot for something else.
I feel like you're really not grasping the idea here. If no exotic offers a particularly strong advantage over a legendary, that's a good thing. You can't waste your exotic slot. There is no better exotic to use instead. So you can use a gun you want to use, not one you feel you're at a disadvantage by not using.
Just for fun, here's a guy playing with the pre-buff thorn. I don't think less Dot would matter because he's really good, but it's illustrative to point out that this was back when Thorn was considered less useful than any other hand cannon.
Yeah, exotic weapon balance is PvP's real problem.
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, April 07, 2015, 16:54 (3309 days ago) @ iconicbanana
1. There is still going to be some scenario where it will kill where a DYK wouldn't.
There is no situation I can think of other than what we have now, where that could be the case. Let's say you make it so the DoT kills if you get three BODY shots. Well, Timur's lash can do that by default. Fail. A legendary is going to match or beat it in every situation except the current one.
Provided the encounter lasts 2 seconds, and no one hunts cover, and it isn't a long range battle, sure. In your ideal situation, Timur's Lash wins.
2. If it's the same as any other legendary that's a good thing.
when you could use your exotic slot for something else.
I feel like you're really not grasping the idea here. If no exotic offers a particularly strong advantage over a legendary, that's a good thing. You can't waste your exotic slot. There is no better exotic to use instead. So you can use a gun you want to use, not one you feel you're at a disadvantage by not using.
I agree, but the exotics are not EXOTIC enough, so that not only would a Thorn nerfed to your specs be the same damage wise as a legendary, it would be FUNCTIONALLY the same. I am all for exotics that are wildly different types of guns that are on par with legendary guns and significantly change your playstyle. Of the Hand Cannons, Last Word is in my opinion the best as an exotic in concept.
Yeah, exotic weapon balance is PvP's real problem.
1. There is still going to be some scenario where it will kill where a DYK wouldn't.
There is no situation I can think of other than what we have now, where that could be the case. Let's say you make it so the DoT kills if you get three BODY shots. Well, Timur's lash can do that by default. Fail. A legendary is going to match or beat it in every situation except the current one.
Provided the encounter lasts 2 seconds, and no one hunts cover, and it isn't a long range battle, sure. In your ideal situation, Timur's Lash wins.
2. If it's the same as any other legendary that's a good thing.
when you could use your exotic slot for something else.
I feel like you're really not grasping the idea here. If no exotic offers a particularly strong advantage over a legendary, that's a good thing. You can't waste your exotic slot. There is no better exotic to use instead. So you can use a gun you want to use, not one you feel you're at a disadvantage by not using.
I agree, but the exotics are not EXOTIC enough, so that not only would a Thorn nerfed to your specs be the same damage wise as a legendary, it would be FUNCTIONALLY the same. I am all for exotics that are wildly different types of guns that are on par with legendary guns and significantly change your playstyle. Of the Hand Cannons, Last Word is in my opinion the best as an exotic in concept.
I do wish the exotics were just different and not just better (in some cases, the amount of different is actually what makes them better, like the pocket infinity). That said, a Thorn doesn't function like most Handcannons. It has far more range, on par with scouts and snipers. It fires very fast with very predictable recoil; it overpenetrates with DOT on all hit targets; and that DOT is pretty damn good. You might not even need to nerf the DOT if it had less bullets, but I still think it's overpowered with less bullets and the same DOT. Even with a 6 bullet mag, it's still functionally very different than any other hand cannon in the game, especially when you consider that an engagement very frequently doesn't just involve the guns in play. It's certainly one of the very best crucible weapons available, too much better than alternatives, and along with TLW (and Hawkmoon) it's a balance issue that's far more pressing than any other class of weapon, much less an individual case.
I'd love to see numbers on exotic primaries, but here's a thought experiment for you. Specifically, for individuals not using an exotic special or heavy: what percentage of players do you think are using Suros, Red Death, Bad Juju, Hawkmoon, Thorn, or TLW? I'm thinking a pretty large majority. That's a little boring.
Wouldn't it be nice if we had players not using any exotics, because other possibilities were more interesting? Or at the very least, if we weren't all dying to those 6 primaries? I'm with yakaman; I'd like to not get outshot all the time when I'm not using one of them.
Yeah, exotic weapon balance is PvP's real problem.
by Claude Errera , Tuesday, April 07, 2015, 16:44 (3309 days ago) @ Cody Miller
Look at the HC crucible range nerf that just happened. It didn't actually make the exotics less viable; it just made rare/legendary HC's less viable.
I barely notice the range nerf. All it did was make send it even better. I use my Devil You Know all the time in crucible; it's not any less viable than it was.
The Thorn pre-buff, with less bullets and less DOT strength, was probably where exotics should be; unique, but not necessarily better.
Thorn has to kill in two headshots, or else why use it over a legendary hand cannon? The high DoT is key to that. If the DoT doesn't kill after two shots, it's a useless perk, since 3 shots would be required to kill, but any other hand cannon can do that anyway! There is no way to make thorn's perk 'unique, but not necessarily better". It is either better, or worthless. Worse than worthless since you sacrificed an exotic slot for a gun that would perform the same as a legendary.
I love your absolutes.
I survive getting 3-shot from legendary handcannons ALL THE TIME. Very, very, VERY few people can consistently make two of those 3 shots be headshots. Thorn does a WAY better job of killing opponents when your shooting is not perfect (and the percentage of time I meet not-perfect shooting in the crucible is well over 80).
I don't have Thorn - but I die to it plenty. I don't have TDyK... but I almost never die to it. (That could be because nobody has one - but my not dying to it is true about MOST legendary HCs.)
Occasionally, I want to use a different Exotic in the Crucible, so I swap out my Last Word for Timur's Lash (soon to be Fatebringer, as soon as it's fully leveled). The difference is NIGHT AND DAY. One is a killing machine - the other requires ME to be a killing machine. I guess if I were perfect, I could make do with Timur's Lash. But I'm not. So I'm really happy with TLW.
Yeah, exotic weapon balance is PvP's real problem.
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, April 07, 2015, 16:49 (3309 days ago) @ Claude Errera
I survive getting 3-shot from legendary handcannons ALL THE TIME. Very, very, VERY few people can consistently make two of those 3 shots be headshots.
You only need to make ONE headshot to 3 shot kill if you are using a medium impact hand cannon. 2 is for low impact.
Occasionally, I want to use a different Exotic in the Crucible, so I swap out my Last Word for Timur's Lash (soon to be Fatebringer, as soon as it's fully leveled). The difference is NIGHT AND DAY. One is a killing machine - the other requires ME to be a killing machine. I guess if I were perfect, I could make do with Timur's Lash. But I'm not. So I'm really happy with TLW.
Last word is its own thing here. I would suggest trying to get a medium impact hand cannon with send it. Give it a try, and you'll probably like how they perform.
Yeah, exotic weapon balance is PvP's real problem.
by Claude Errera , Tuesday, April 07, 2015, 16:58 (3309 days ago) @ Cody Miller
I survive getting 3-shot from legendary handcannons ALL THE TIME. Very, very, VERY few people can consistently make two of those 3 shots be headshots.
You only need to make ONE headshot to 3 shot kill if you are using a medium impact hand cannon. 2 is for low impact.
If that's the case, folks playing against me are even worse than I thought. And my argument is even stronger.
Occasionally, I want to use a different Exotic in the Crucible, so I swap out my Last Word for Timur's Lash (soon to be Fatebringer, as soon as it's fully leveled). The difference is NIGHT AND DAY. One is a killing machine - the other requires ME to be a killing machine. I guess if I were perfect, I could make do with Timur's Lash. But I'm not. So I'm really happy with TLW.
Last word is its own thing here. I would suggest trying to get a medium impact hand cannon with send it. Give it a try, and you'll probably like how they perform.
My Timur's Lash (a high impact HC, not medium) has Rangefinder (and since I'm often scoped in, that should be comparable to Send It). I can live with it - but like I said, TLW is a Bugatti compared to Timur's Lash's Dodge Charger.
Yeah, exotic weapon balance is PvP's real problem.
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, April 07, 2015, 16:59 (3309 days ago) @ Claude Errera
My Timur's Lash (a high impact HC, not medium) has Rangefinder (and since I'm often scoped in, that should be comparable to Send It). I can live with it - but like I said, TLW is a Bugatti compared to Timur's Lash's Dodge Charger.
And as I said, I have no issue with TLW, and really dig it myself :-)
The discussion was centered around the hypothetical Thorn nerf. If you have problems with headshots, then Thorn isn't going to offer you an advantage anyway.
In my opinion, your mileage may vary, results not guaranteed.
Yeah, exotic weapon balance is PvP's real problem.
by Claude Errera , Tuesday, April 07, 2015, 17:02 (3309 days ago) @ Cody Miller
My Timur's Lash (a high impact HC, not medium) has Rangefinder (and since I'm often scoped in, that should be comparable to Send It). I can live with it - but like I said, TLW is a Bugatti compared to Timur's Lash's Dodge Charger.
And as I said, I have no issue with TLW, and really dig it myself :-)The discussion was centered around the hypothetical Thorn nerf.
And my original contribution was that I am killed by Thorn regularly, and by Legendary HCs non-regularly. But you ignored that, and focused on the peripheral stuff (where I said I don't have Thorn, but I CAN speak to the line between Exotic and Legendary).
Thorn is far more powerful, right now, than most (all?) Legendary HCs in the game. As it should be (since it's an exotic).
Yeah, exotic weapon balance is PvP's real problem.
by MacAddictXIV , Seattle WA, Tuesday, April 07, 2015, 17:33 (3309 days ago) @ Claude Errera
Thorn also plays very well into a specific type of game play as well. I for one noticed that it should never be used for a titan. Because the way it's used is by double tapping someone and escaping. That is not how normal pistols are using. In fact that's not really how any primary is used.
Thus it's kinda hard to compare thorn to other HC's IMHO.
Yeah, exotic weapon balance is PvP's real problem.
by Ragashingo , Official DBO Cryptarch, Tuesday, April 07, 2015, 18:16 (3309 days ago) @ Claude Errera
That's interesting, because I don't think of Thorn as being that much better. I feel a Thorn is basically the equal of something like a The Devil You Know. My theory is that players using Thorn need three (or more) shots to get a kill vastly more often than they manage to score two headshot + poison kills. I try and engage Thorn users with that in mind. I play normally and focus on beating them to the kill as if they had any other gun "knowing" that if I do kill them first I'm far more likely to survive the poison than I am to die from it after the fact.
I think perhaps what makes Thorn feel so much more powerful is its unique firing sound, its unique green shot trail, and the visual effect of the poison that makes you think you're going to die even when you're really probably not. It's that factor of knowing every single time a Thorn kills you, plus the occasional times a Thorn user actually does manage to kill you with with the poison, that makes you remember and grumble. When I get killed by other Hand Cannons I have to look to see if they were using a TDYK or a TDYD or a TFWPKY 1969 or a TLW or a TL or whatever so it sticks in my memory far less.
Yeah, exotic weapon balance is PvP's real problem.
And my original contribution was that I am killed by Thorn regularly, and by Legendary HCs non-regularly. But you ignored that, and focused on the peripheral stuff (where I said I don't have Thorn, but I CAN speak to the line between Exotic and Legendary).
Thorn is far more powerful, right now, than most (all?) Legendary HCs in the game. As it should be (since it's an exotic).
Which I also think is fine, to a point. Iconic's point (I think) is that it's a shame (or a waste) for a few weapons to be so much better than the rest. It's too bad that a few Exotics are that much better than other exotics. Sorta like DMR/BR convergence in Halo MP.
Is there a similar discrepancy in secondary Exotics, I wonder?
I must be bad at head-shots, because my DYK is way less viable than it once was. Or maybe I got lazy? But I think one of Destiny's strengths is that there are so many other ways to kill that a person can switch up as needed. Which is where this all started - preserve access to special ammo so that I can shotgun you Last Word 1%-ers.
Not jealous at all.
Yeah, exotic weapon balance is PvP's real problem.
by Claude Errera , Tuesday, April 07, 2015, 21:05 (3309 days ago) @ yakaman
Which is where this all started - preserve access to special ammo so that I can shotgun you Last Word 1%-ers.
Not jealous at all.
I totally love that in this situation, I'm a 1%-er. ;)
(I bought my Last Word from Xur, and if you looked at my K/D in PVP over time (the only place that tracks it is DestinyTracker, and they only go back a month or so), you'd see it was flat (and negative) through the time I picked up TLW, and has been rising steadily ever since. Even with a thousand crucible games under my belt, my K/D goes up a hundredth of a point every week or two, almost like clockwork. And that's completely attributable to TLW. ;) )
Yeah, exotic weapon balance is PvP's real problem.
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, April 07, 2015, 22:00 (3309 days ago) @ Claude Errera
And my original contribution was that I am killed by Thorn regularly, and by Legendary HCs non-regularly.
Thorn is probably more common than a comparable Legendary hand cannon. That's the only reason I think. The vendor hand cannons are not the greatest for crucible right now, and I'm not sure how many people hung on to their TDYKs or their Lord High Fixers. You need a good drop with the hand cannons that you can get now.
I can count on one hand the number of times I've been killed by a Thunderlord, but that doesn't mean it's no good.
Yeah, exotic weapon balance is PvP's real problem.
by Speedracer513 , Dallas, Texas, Tuesday, April 07, 2015, 22:15 (3309 days ago) @ Cody Miller
And my original contribution was that I am killed by Thorn regularly, and by Legendary HCs non-regularly.
Thorn is probably more common than a comparable Legendary hand cannon. That's the only reason I think. The vendor hand cannons are not the greatest for crucible right now, and I'm not sure how many people hung on to their TDYKs or their Lord High Fixers. You need a good drop with the hand cannons that you can get now.I can count on one hand the number of times I've been killed by a Thunderlord, but that doesn't mean it's no good.
Do you even have a fully leveled Thorn? If so, do you ever use it?
I have used a fully leveled Lord High Fixer, Fatebringer, and Word of Crota in the Crucible, but none of them come even close to my Thorn (which I run with almost all the time now).
You are the only person I know that tries to argue that the exotic hand cannons are not noticeably better than pretty much anything else (primary weapons at least) in the Crucible, and I am suspecting that's because you don't actually use any of them.
As you said, what is true on paper is not necessarily true in the field. Even though your TDYK can three-shot just like Thorn (on paper), actually using them makes it very clear that Thorn is going to be noticeably more deadly than TDYK most of the time. Especially when used in the hands of someone (like myself) that doesn't get head-shots 90% of the time like you apparently do.
Yeah, exotic weapon balance is PvP's real problem.
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, April 07, 2015, 23:10 (3308 days ago) @ Speedracer513
edited by Cody Miller, Tuesday, April 07, 2015, 23:16
You are the only person I know that tries to argue that the exotic hand cannons are not noticeably better than pretty much anything else (primary weapons at least) in the Crucible, and I am suspecting that's because you don't actually use any of them.
I'm making no such argument. Last word owns. Hawkmoon Owns. Thorn Owns. This thread was about making those hand cannons less dominant, and I argued that nothing could be done in Thorn's case. I'm arguing that the hypothetical nerfed Thorn would be worthless, not the one in its current form. The exotic hand cannons are all absolutely better, but you can still hold your own with a great Legendary one.
Yeah, exotic weapon balance is PvP's real problem.
by Claude Errera , Tuesday, April 07, 2015, 22:16 (3309 days ago) @ Cody Miller
And my original contribution was that I am killed by Thorn regularly, and by Legendary HCs non-regularly.
Thorn is probably more common than a comparable Legendary hand cannon. That's the only reason I think. The vendor hand cannons are not the greatest for crucible right now, and I'm not sure how many people hung on to their TDYKs or their Lord High Fixers. You need a good drop with the hand cannons that you can get now.I can count on one hand the number of times I've been killed by a Thunderlord, but that doesn't mean it's no good.
3 posts ago, you said there's no reason to use Thorn, because "any other hand cannon" was just as good.
Now you tell me that the reason people are using it is because it's more common than any "comparable" hand cannon. (Which is tautalogical, but whatever.)
Make up your mind - what are you arguing? That Thorn is no better than "any other hand cannon", or that Thorn is no better than "comparable" hand cannons, which are so rare as to be irrelevant?
Yeah, exotic weapon balance is PvP's real problem.
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, April 07, 2015, 23:20 (3308 days ago) @ Claude Errera
3 posts ago, you said there's no reason to use Thorn, because "any other hand cannon" was just as good.
Wrong. I was speaking about THE HYPOTHETICAL NERFED THORN, where 2 headshots wouldn't kill. Come on man. There would be no reason to use his proposed Thorn over a legendary. There is plenty of reason to use the current Thorn over a legendary. Am I being clear enough?
I'm with Cody here.
3 posts ago, you said there's no reason to use Thorn, because "any other hand cannon" was just as good.
Wrong. I was speaking about THE HYPOTHETICAL NERFED THORN, where 2 headshots wouldn't kill. Come on man. There would be no reason to use his proposed Thorn over a legendary. There is plenty of reason to use the current Thorn over a legendary. Am I being clear enough?
Yeah, to be honest I agree with Cody. Thorn would not be objectively better than a legendary. Some people would use it because they enjoyed it subjectively, and other people would stick to a legendary. I think that's the goal with weapon balance.
Yeah, exotic weapon balance is PvP's real problem.
by Ragashingo , Official DBO Cryptarch, Wednesday, April 08, 2015, 17:43 (3308 days ago) @ Cody Miller
Occasionally, I want to use a different Exotic in the Crucible, so I swap out my Last Word for Timur's Lash (soon to be Fatebringer, as soon as it's fully leveled). The difference is NIGHT AND DAY. One is a killing machine - the other requires ME to be a killing machine. I guess if I were perfect, I could make do with Timur's Lash. But I'm not. So I'm really happy with TLW.
Last word is its own thing here. I would suggest trying to get a medium impact hand cannon with send it. Give it a try, and you'll probably like how they perform.
Agreed. I actually sharded my Timur's Lash right after I got it three Iron Banners ago because the rate of fire was too low for me. Yeah, you might even get a two headshot kill with it (maybe?) but if you miss or hesitate you're done for. I bought a standard The Devil You Don't yesterday and enjoyed the rate of fire. It's not The Last Word, but I imagine you'd like it a lot more than the slow and ultra slow Hand Cannons... I just had to remember that I absolutely had to reload after each kill as its 5 bullet magazine will only get you 1.67 kills, at most, before you run out. :p
(I do wonder if its Final Round perk is powerful enough to get me to two kills... I'll know in a couple of days...)
Yeah, exotic weapon balance is PvP's real problem.
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, April 08, 2015, 17:54 (3308 days ago) @ Ragashingo
Agreed. I actually sharded my Timur's Lash right after I got it three Iron Banners ago because the rate of fire was too low for me. Yeah, you might even get a two headshot kill with it (maybe?)
Timur's Lash is a two shot kill for an enemy with full health if and only if:
1. Both are head shots, and either
1. You have luck in the Chamber and one of the Bullets is bonus damage.
2. You Kill someone while under the bonus of Crowd Control.
3. You kill someone with the last bullet in the mag having the final round perk.
So most Pulses are better than it, hand down?
by ZackDark , Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Wednesday, April 08, 2015, 21:33 (3308 days ago) @ Cody Miller
- No text -
Yeah, exotic weapon balance is PvP's real problem.
by Ragashingo , Official DBO Cryptarch, Tuesday, April 07, 2015, 17:37 (3309 days ago) @ iconicbanana
Look at the HC crucible range nerf that just happened. It didn't actually make the exotics less viable; it just made rare/legendary HC's less viable. Suros is still usable in crucible, but look at everything that isn't a vanquisher/grim citizen. Silvered Hushwinds aren't really cutting it anymore.
Really, I think the case of Auto Rifles is somewhat unique in that the entire class isn't as good a match for Destiny's gameplay. If you tone them down, like Bungie has, they put their wielders at a real disadvantage vs longer ranged guns, while also forcing their wielders to fight in closer where sticky grenades and even shotguns become a much greater threat. But if you buff Auto Rifles they start landing a lot of shots on the longer ranged guns while still being better in close and it becomes unclear what the Pulse Rifles and Scout Rifles are there for.
Ultimately, I think Destiny's combat cycle, as chiefly defined by the average length of sight lines and the distance required to effectively dodge thrown grenades, creates specific zones where fighting is effective:
- Close, where shotguns rule.
- Medium, where both Pulse and Scout rifles live.
- Long, where sniper rifles become powerful.
Auto Rifles demand a fourth "Medium-Close" zone be both viable and sufficiently separate from the other zones... but "Medium-Close" has too much overlap. Again, if Auto Rifles focus too much on the "Close" zone they start losing to Pulse and Scout Rifles and if they extend into the "Medium" they interfere with the other primaries too much and become good at everything.
The real solution (that nobody wants to admit) is to give up on the concept of the Auto Rifle.
Yeah, exotic weapon balance is PvP's real problem.
by MacAddictXIV , Seattle WA, Tuesday, April 07, 2015, 17:42 (3309 days ago) @ Ragashingo
The real solution (that nobody wants to admit) is to give up on the concept of the Auto Rifle.
OR just make them viable short range again. That works too.
Yeah, exotic weapon balance is PvP's real problem.
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, April 07, 2015, 19:13 (3309 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV
The real solution (that nobody wants to admit) is to give up on the concept of the Auto Rifle.
OR just make them viable short range again. That works too.
The existence of the shotgun and fusion rifle mean that nothing else can be viable short range.
This mostly.
The existence of the shotgun and fusion rifle mean that nothing else can be viable short range.
Not to mention melee and grenades. It is really tough to find a balance where ARs and SRs/PRs all fit in harmony.
I actually think this issue spans to most shooters; ARs don't really have a niche.
This mostly.
by MacAddictXIV , Seattle WA, Wednesday, April 08, 2015, 11:19 (3308 days ago) @ yakaman
The existence of the shotgun and fusion rifle mean that nothing else can be viable short range.
Not to mention melee and grenades. It is really tough to find a balance where ARs and SRs/PRs all fit in harmony.I actually think this issue spans to most shooters; ARs don't really have a niche.
Which is really depressing because ARs are the bread and butter of FPS's in my mind.
This mostly.
by Ragashingo , Official DBO Cryptarch, Wednesday, April 08, 2015, 12:16 (3308 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV
Not Bungie FPSes. For literally a decade now the goto gun for Bungie games has been a precision zoomable weapon. The Assault Rifle and SMG were the crappy short ranged guns you tossed aside for a Battle Rigle or DMR as soon as possible.
This mostly.
by MacAddictXIV , Seattle WA, Wednesday, April 08, 2015, 12:30 (3308 days ago) @ Ragashingo
Not Bungie FPSes. For literally a decade now the goto gun for Bungie games has been a precision zoomable weapon. The Assault Rifle and SMG were the crappy short ranged guns you tossed aside for a Battle Rigle or DMR as soon as possible.
I didn't mean play style, I meant what I think of when I think of FPS games. I mean if you look at every poster of Master Chief, more often than not he is holding an AR.
Most hardcore players seem to accept this now. I haven't even touched my Suros in a month. PVP is Red Death or TLW, PvE is Timur's Lash or whatever elemental is best for the occasion. I might bring out my Nechrochasm for an arc burn week sometime though, or Abyss Defiant for solar burn.
Auto rifles are done.
by Ragashingo , Official DBO Cryptarch, Wednesday, April 08, 2015, 12:23 (3308 days ago) @ Funkmon
Most hardcore players seem to accept this now. I haven't even touched my Suros in a month. PVP is Red Death or TLW, PvE is Timur's Lash or whatever elemental is best for the occasion. I might bring out my Nechrochasm for an arc burn week sometime though, or Abyss Defiant for solar burn.
Don't go to the extreme. Auto Rifles aren't useless. They just don't have a well defined zone and suffer for it. That being true, I did fairly well with my Up For Anything last night. And my Suros is even better. They're both competitive, if never the absolute best choice.
Never the best choice = done.
by Funkmon , Wednesday, April 08, 2015, 16:52 (3308 days ago) @ Ragashingo
Why would you knowingly make not the best choice?
Because you suck at the better choice?
by ZackDark , Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Wednesday, April 08, 2015, 21:44 (3308 days ago) @ Funkmon
The spray-and-pray nature of ARs make a lot of people who can't really aim for headshots, but try anyway, to be able to compete in the Crucible.
- If you try and miss headshots with a handcannon, you'll probably have to reload before the kill. (Also, the slow RoF makes a good target re-acquisition very important.)
- If you try for headshots, but aren't very good with aiming with the Pulse Rifle, you'll hit the ceiling a LOT more often than heads. (Same re-acquisition argument.)
- If you suck at long range anyway, Scouts suck.
ARs are the poor-aim-er's go-to gun. Since the recoil is, most often, not only predictable but also constant (less time between shots, no trigger finger movement between shots), target re-acquisition is far easier than any other gun.
Back when I completely sucked at Crucible, Up for Anything was my savior. It allowed me to compete well enough to get the feel for the flow of the maps. Then I moved up to a Vanquisher, once I got a lot better at targeting human players. Now I kind of wreck face with Bad Juju, which, since the buff, is basically a Vanquisher anyway, but more forgiving to half-misses and let's me Super a lot more often.
Yeah, exotic weapon balance is PvP's real problem.
by CruelLEGACEY , Toronto, Wednesday, April 08, 2015, 12:48 (3308 days ago) @ Ragashingo
The real solution (that nobody wants to admit) is to give up on the concept of the Auto Rifle.
I wouldn't go that far. I think we just need more auto rifles I the slow firing/hard hitting archetype. As I and many others have pointed out, Suros and Mythoclast (I know it's technically a fusion rifle, but it behaves like an AR) are still perfectly competitive with the best hand cannons or scout rifles. I feel there are just too few ARs with similar range/RoF/impact stats.
Yeah, exotic weapon balance is PvP's real problem.
The real solution (that nobody wants to admit) is to give up on the concept of the Auto Rifle.
I wouldn't go that far. I think we just need more auto rifles I the slow firing/hard hitting archetype. As I and many others have pointed out, Suros and Mythoclast (I know it's technically a fusion rifle, but it behaves like an AR) are still perfectly competitive with the best hand cannons or scout rifles.
Nooooo, Those ones are the problem!
What we really need is a range nerf and a big damage boost on AR's. Turn them into SMGs; give them a bunch of kick, but the strength to kill nearly as fast as shotguns when at close range. A burst followed by a melee should kill really quick with AR's, allowing them to compete with shotguns at closer ranges, but not HC's and PR's at longer ranges. The reason they've been nerfed so much is because the vanquisher archetype is just too good at all ranges.
Yeah, exotic weapon balance is PvP's real problem.
by MacAddictXIV , Seattle WA, Wednesday, April 08, 2015, 13:24 (3308 days ago) @ iconicbanana
The real solution (that nobody wants to admit) is to give up on the concept of the Auto Rifle.
I wouldn't go that far. I think we just need more auto rifles I the slow firing/hard hitting archetype. As I and many others have pointed out, Suros and Mythoclast (I know it's technically a fusion rifle, but it behaves like an AR) are still perfectly competitive with the best hand cannons or scout rifles.
Nooooo, Those ones are the problem!What we really need is a range nerf and a big damage boost on AR's. Turn them into SMGs; give them a bunch of kick, but the strength to kill nearly as fast as shotguns when at close range. A burst followed by a melee should kill really quick with AR's, allowing them to compete with shotguns at closer ranges, but not HC's and PR's at longer ranges. The reason they've been nerfed so much is because the vanquisher archetype is just too good at all ranges.
I agree completely. I never really liked the slow RoF ARs anyway. They aren't true ARs
Yeah, exotic weapon balance is PvP's real problem.
by CruelLEGACEY , Toronto, Wednesday, April 08, 2015, 13:29 (3308 days ago) @ iconicbanana
The real solution (that nobody wants to admit) is to give up on the concept of the Auto Rifle.
I wouldn't go that far. I think we just need more auto rifles I the slow firing/hard hitting archetype. As I and many others have pointed out, Suros and Mythoclast (I know it's technically a fusion rifle, but it behaves like an AR) are still perfectly competitive with the best hand cannons or scout rifles.
Nooooo! Those ones are the problem!We need a range nerf and a big damage boost on AR's. Turn them into SMGs; give them a bunch of kick, but the strength to kill nearly as fast as shotguns when at close range. A burst followed by a melee should kill really quick with AR's, allowing them to compete with shotguns at closer ranges, but not HC's and PR's at longer ranges. The reason they've been nerfed so much is because the vanquisher archetype is just too good at all ranges.
At close/mid range, they will never be as effective as shotguns and Fusion Rifles. Suros is great because it has similar effective range to HCs, PRs and SRs, but its still different to use. Since the other 3 primary weapons all have similar effective range and time to kill stats, most ARs simply aren't competitive. The few that do come close in terms of range & accuracy are great. Usable, without feeling overpowered.
Yeah, exotic weapon balance is PvP's real problem.
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, April 08, 2015, 13:42 (3308 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY
The real solution (that nobody wants to admit) is to give up on the concept of the Auto Rifle.
I wouldn't go that far. I think we just need more auto rifles I the slow firing/hard hitting archetype. As I and many others have pointed out, Suros and Mythoclast (I know it's technically a fusion rifle, but it behaves like an AR) are still perfectly competitive with the best hand cannons or scout rifles.
Nooooo! Those ones are the problem!We need a range nerf and a big damage boost on AR's. Turn them into SMGs; give them a bunch of kick, but the strength to kill nearly as fast as shotguns when at close range. A burst followed by a melee should kill really quick with AR's, allowing them to compete with shotguns at closer ranges, but not HC's and PR's at longer ranges. The reason they've been nerfed so much is because the vanquisher archetype is just too good at all ranges.
At close/mid range, they will never be as effective as shotguns and Fusion Rifles. Suros is great because it has similar effective range to HCs, PRs and SRs, but its still different to use. Since the other 3 primary weapons all have similar effective range and time to kill stats, most ARs simply aren't competitive. The few that do come close in terms of range & accuracy are great. Usable, without feeling overpowered.
Which comes back to what someone else said which is the root problem for auto rifles: shotguns and fusion rifles are not limited power weapons like in Halo, but permanent fixtures in the game. Auto Rifles are not as good precisely because at any given time, most opponents have something to counter it.
Yeah, exotic weapon balance is PvP's real problem.
by CruelLEGACEY , Toronto, Wednesday, April 08, 2015, 13:47 (3308 days ago) @ Cody Miller
At close/mid range, they will never be as effective as shotguns and Fusion Rifles. Suros is great because it has similar effective range to HCs, PRs and SRs, but its still different to use. Since the other 3 primary weapons all have similar effective range and time to kill stats, most ARs simply aren't competitive. The few that do come close in terms of range & accuracy are great. Usable, without feeling overpowered.
Which comes back to what someone else said which is the root problem for auto rifles: shotguns and fusion rifles are not limited power weapons like in Halo, but permanent fixtures in the game. Auto Rifles are not as good precisely because at any given time, most opponents have something to counter it.
I agree, which is why I feel like it is a simpler solution to just bring ARs in line with the other primaries (which are decently well balanced between each other), rather than totally overhaul the nature of Destiny's weapon sandbox.
Yeah, exotic weapon balance is PvP's real problem.
by CyberKN , Oh no, Destiny 2 is bad, Wednesday, April 08, 2015, 14:33 (3308 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY
edited by CyberKN, Wednesday, April 08, 2015, 14:36
At close/mid range, they will never be as effective as shotguns and Fusion Rifles. Suros is great because it has similar effective range to HCs, PRs and SRs, but its still different to use. Since the other 3 primary weapons all have similar effective range and time to kill stats, most ARs simply aren't competitive. The few that do come close in terms of range & accuracy are great. Usable, without feeling overpowered.
Which comes back to what someone else said which is the root problem for auto rifles: shotguns and fusion rifles are not limited power weapons like in Halo, but permanent fixtures in the game. Auto Rifles are not as good precisely because at any given time, most opponents have something to counter it.
I agree, which is why I feel like it is a simpler solution to just bring ARs in line with the other primaries (which are decently well balanced between each other), rather than totally overhaul the nature of Destiny's weapon sandbox.
Absolutely.
The last nerf was overkill- 2.5% sounds fairly insignificant, but in practice it seems to be just enough that everything else can kill much quicker, at ANY range.
I think that the biggest difference between the Primary weapons should be cadence- ARs provide a steady stream, PRs have that momentary pause between bursts to allow you to re-align, HCs have a much longer pause but hit harder (risk/reward), and SRs are slightly less powerful, faster-firing versions of HCs.
That might sound kind of boring, but we're walking a fine line here. I'd rather have a bunch of very similar, but not identical weapon classes that can be competitive with each other at a set (primary-weapon specific) range, then try to find unique roles for all these weapon archetypes, and keep failing at balancing it.
Simplify the range hierarchy to Sniper > Primary > Fusion Rifle > Shotgun.