Put it in perspective

Imagine you went and bought Halo, but there was a multiplayer map that only unlocked as a random reward when playing multiplayer. You'd be annoyed no? I bought the game, why cant I play on the map?

Imagine you went and bought the Last of Us, but could only make nail bombs after getting instructions off a random drop from an enemy. Wouldn't that suck? The game is set up so that they are important items, and useful to progress. So why would I be locked out?

Imagine you were playing Beyond Two Souls or Heavy Rain or something, and you could only take certain story branches leading to the 'best' ending if a random event occurred during the course of the story. Would you not be bummed or frustrated?

What if you couldn't pick up the covenant carbine unless you were granted the ability from an extremely rare drop? Sucks?

So why is it normal, and encouraged for Exotic weapons like Hawkmoon, which are fantastically useful and a part of the game, to be locked away behind RNG? I bought the game, why can't I play with all its elements? How is that any different than any of the above scenarios?

Don't tell me that's just how MMOs work, because MMO is an objectively, demonstrably bad genre. Why aren't we past this?

It's fucking stupid, and I'm really bitter that I can't play with this gun until the fall simply because of random numbers.

My solution that would be minimally intrusive: if you roll an exotic, don't give out one that is already on the account (or weigh them much more heavily). Check, and give a new drop that the account doesn't have. I don't need 8 No Land Beyonds. Wow, so hard.

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...it helps keep you playing. I think, frustrating or not, RNG is doing it's job.

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RNG is doing it's job.

Oh it definitely is. Hence Cody's frustration.

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Also, Cody's sweet Hawkmoon craving tears sustain me, especially with Guardian getting one during their raid...

I lol at thee!

Also, the old "I bought the game, why can't I have everything in it unlocked and maxed out" argument. A classic.

Don't recall people whining about not getting to fight Reptile in the old MK days, or crying that they couldn't get the top-tier loot out of the gate in a Final Fantasy game...

And yet, now these kids are all feeling entitled to something that isn't guaranteed for them...
The way these games work is that Bungie could add and remove any element of the game, and you still have the game that you purchased. If they wanted to, they could just delete Hawkmoon, and nobody could say anything... Don't like it? Buy an offline-only game and never update it.

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Don't recall people whining about not getting to fight Reptile in the old MK days, or crying that they couldn't get the top-tier loot out of the gate in a Final Fantasy game...

You don't understand my argument. Those things were entirely under the control of the player. Get good enough for the double flawless, and bam, you can fight reptile! Look at all the guides, and you can get all the top tier stuff in FF. Getting a Hawkmoon is 100% out of my control.

You can only call me entitled for wanting stuff you have to actually earn. Rolling an RNG is not earning.

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Don't recall people whining about not getting to fight Reptile in the old MK days, or crying that they couldn't get the top-tier loot out of the gate in a Final Fantasy game...

You don't understand my argument. Those things were entirely under the control of the player. Get good enough for the double flawless, and bam, you can fight reptile! Look at all the guides, and you can get all the top tier stuff in FF. Getting a Hawkmoon is 100% out of my control.

You can only call me entitled for wanting stuff you have to actually earn. Rolling an RNG is not earning.

Never said it was. But the Reptile fight DID have randomness. You had to play hoping you got the right map, hoping that the moon was full, and then hoping that you were able to do the double Flawless. Skill (such as beating the Nightfall, or reaching the Gorgon Chest, or beating Atheon/Ir Yut/ Crota) is involved to an extent, but randomness is still there. Just be thankful that there are a number of weighted events to give you exotics, and a chance at Hawkmoon.

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Never said it was. But the Reptile fight DID have randomness. You had to play hoping you got the right map, hoping that the moon was full, and then hoping that you were able to do the double Flawless. Skill (such as beating the Nightfall, or reaching the Gorgon Chest, or beating Atheon/Ir Yut/ Crota) is involved to an extent, but randomness is still there. Just be thankful that there are a number of weighted events to give you exotics, and a chance at Hawkmoon.

And guess what? If you wanted to try your skill at Reptile but not deal with that randomness, there was a debug mode where you could turn on the flags that set the moon, and choose the pit to fight on.

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Don't recall people whining about not getting to fight Reptile in the old MK days, or crying that they couldn't get the top-tier loot out of the gate in a Final Fantasy game...

You don't understand my argument. Those things were entirely under the control of the player. Get good enough for the double flawless, and bam, you can fight reptile! Look at all the guides, and you can get all the top tier stuff in FF. Getting a Hawkmoon is 100% out of my control.

No. That is a lie, and I think you know it.

Getting a Hawkmoon is not 100% within your control, nor do you cite a compelling reason why it should be except that you feel you deserve one. That is obviously not the drive of Bungie's design.

Suggesting that because it is not completely within your control, it must be completely out of your control is a classic false dichotomy.

Try this: stop playing and I guarantee you'll never get one. See that? You did have some control!

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Try this: stop playing and I guarantee you'll never get one. See that? You did have some control!

You know what I mean. Nothing I can do and no action I take will GUARANTEE ME one.

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I get it. You want all games to be a pure meritocracy. I don't care. I think an element of luck makes things more interesting.

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Except it's not really necessary to the game.

It's like if Halo had 200 guns and one of them occasionally did extra damage 1/3rd of the time. It is totally different than you make it out to be. Useful, but you weren't pissed off when you couldn't use a fuel rod cannon during Cairo Station, could you?

Come on, dude. Don't get so upset.

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I have sympathy here. Imagine that seemingly everyone else has this weapon and they talk about how great it is. You watch as your friends get this weapon dropped multiple times and you get nothing. That's what Fatebringer is to me. It's frustrating.

I think the better solution would have been to have all exotics have a quest. No Xur, no RNG for exotics. Then each one would feel earned and there would still be plenty of time put into the game by players as they played through these quests. Leave RNG for legendaries and below. Raid weapons just need a smarter RNG system. Why should I have a dozen Timebreakers but no Fatebringer or Mythoclast.?

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I have sympathy here. Imagine that seemingly everyone else has this weapon and they talk about how great it is. You watch as your friends get this weapon dropped multiple times and you get nothing. That's what Fatebringer is to me. It's frustrating.

I think the better solution would have been to have all exotics have a quest. No Xur, no RNG for exotics. Then each one would feel earned and there would still be plenty of time put into the game by players as they played through these quests. Leave RNG for legendaries and below. Raid weapons just need a smarter RNG system. Why should I have a dozen Timebreakers but no Fatebringer or Mythoclast.?

That sounds great, but what about raid weapons? They are legendary and someone could want one of those just as badly. The only way that it would work for exotics to have a quest for them is if they were really hard quests. What is the point of exotics weapons if it's easy to get them?

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Some exotics do have quests already, and I enjoyed those. As far as difficulty, some people found them easy and others didn't. Just look for all the posts about the Thorn bounty. Difficulty is subjective.

If raid weapons are RNG, I wish it would at least look at what you've already got before giving the next drop. It would still take multiple runs to get all the weapons, but at least you knew your chances were getting better for a certain one each time. This is important for people who like to collect all the raid weapons. As it is now, it gets harder and harder to get a weapon you don't already have, and that builds up frustration.

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If raid weapons are RNG, I wish it would at least look at what you've already got before giving the next drop. It would still take multiple runs to get all the weapons, but at least you knew your chances were getting better for a certain one each time. This is important for people who like to collect all the raid weapons. As it is now, it gets harder and harder to get a weapon you don't already have, and that builds up frustration.

As of today, I have completed the Vault of Glass 65 times. I didn't get Praetorian Foil until about 2 weeks ago. That is INSANE lol.

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If raid weapons are RNG, I wish it would at least look at what you've already got before giving the next drop. It would still take multiple runs to get all the weapons, but at least you knew your chances were getting better for a certain one each time. This is important for people who like to collect all the raid weapons. As it is now, it gets harder and harder to get a weapon you don't already have, and that builds up frustration.

As of today, I have completed the Vault of Glass 65 times. I didn't get Praetorian Foil until about 2 weeks ago. That is INSANE lol.

As of today, I have never received a Praedyth's Timepiece. Not a huge deal, but it's perhaps more insane.

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I have one, as well as a Fatebringer and Atheon's Epilogue. I have done VoG Hard maybe 3 times in total. 1 complete run and a couple of partials. That is also insane.

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As it is now, it gets harder and harder to get a weapon you don't already have, and that builds up frustration.

Exponentially harder, in fact.

This is a problem with the loot system across the board - attacking that kind of curve isn't satisfying. I meant to post ages ago about this and how to fix it (hint: reign-in RNGesus), but didn't get around to it.

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I just know I didn't mind not having Fatebringer. I do now, and it's good. Mythoclast is also good...but they're not my fave guns. With Iron Banner, you can get yourself basically your perfect gun with enough work. Is it elemental? No, but you can get Oversoul Edict pretty simply running the Abyss on hard mode a few times. There's an arc gun. Solar, run the bridge or get Vision of Confluence. Void, get Epilogue. Word of Crota's harder, but eh. Whatever. You can do it sometime.

You don't need these guns, Blue. They're just nice things. I only got Thunderlord, the Gjallarhorn, and Fatebringer recently, and they have added very little to my game. They're just fun guns with little perks. It's not like you can't buy a TFWPKY or The Chance or something to replace a hand cannon or another arc primary.

Maybe I don't take the game as seriously as you guys.

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I've got all the exotics except Mythoclast, Necrochasm, and the PS exclusives. I've got all the VoG legendaries except Fatebringer. I've got some of the Crota weapons, including Oversoul Edict (loving it too). I've got some Iron Banner weapons with great rolls too.

What bugs me, and why I can understand Cody's frustration, is the one weapon I intentionally set out to get never drops for me. Part of that desire for it is completionism, having all the raid weapons from VoG, and part of that is that I just really like hand cannons, which Fatebringer is one of the best.

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I've got all the exotics except Mythoclast, Necrochasm, and the PS exclusives. I've got all the VoG legendaries except Fatebringer. I've got some of the Crota weapons, including Oversoul Edict (loving it too). I've got some Iron Banner weapons with great rolls too.

What bugs me, and why I can understand Cody's frustration, is the one weapon I intentionally set out to get never drops for me. Part of that desire for it is completionism, having all the raid weapons from VoG, and part of that is that I just really like hand cannons, which Fatebringer is one of the best.

I think the real problem is not necessarily that RNG is a bitch, but that you can actually say "this HC is the best" or "this rocket launcher is the best". It's fine if you can say I just want to try that HC, but it altogether different if you don't have the best HC that everyone else has.

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I've got all the exotics except Mythoclast, Necrochasm, and the PS exclusives. I've got all the VoG legendaries except Fatebringer. I've got some of the Crota weapons, including Oversoul Edict (loving it too). I've got some Iron Banner weapons with great rolls too.

What bugs me, and why I can understand Cody's frustration, is the one weapon I intentionally set out to get never drops for me. Part of that desire for it is completionism, having all the raid weapons from VoG, and part of that is that I just really like hand cannons, which Fatebringer is one of the best.

I think the real problem is not necessarily that RNG is a bitch, but that you can actually say "this HC is the best" or "this rocket launcher is the best". It's fine if you can say I just want to try that HC, but it altogether different if you don't have the best HC that everyone else has.

'Everyone else'?

Are we still talking about Hawkmoon? I doubt 5% of the population has one. (And I mean the PS4 population - add in the Xbox population, and the numbers go even lower.)

I'm sort of on Funkmon's side of this. I just got Fatebringer and Gjallarhorn recently - and I love them both, but I don't feel like I've wasted the last 6 months of playing because I played without them. They're great - but I had other stuff I was happy with before they dropped. (I say 'sort of' because I think both of them are going to change the way I play, while he doesn't even think that.)

If the game worked the way Cody wants it to work, I might have stopped playing PvE at this point - I play it now because it's a fun way to get (and level up) new weapons, but if I could just take whatever caught my eye, I'd skip it and spend all my time in PvP.

And that would be a loss, for me. I'm happy that's not the case.

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When, latency allowing, you could play coop levels with friends online? That to me brought a whole new level of fun to Halo, in addition to the kickass multiplayer.

To me, Destiny is like Halo, except you get the occasional reward for playing.

I can tell you as a former WoW min-maxing raider, the shortest route to becoming disgruntled with a game is to focus on an item, and allow that focus to drive your interest in playing the game.

You will get the item eventually, and then you'll put the game down, thinking "I'm done now," and you'll run the risk of having missed out on all the great moments getting there.

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To me, Destiny is like Halo, except you get the occasional reward for playing.

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To me, Destiny is like Halo, except you get the occasional reward for playing.

I don't think it's accurate to refer to loot in Destiny as rewards... not exactly. Getting Gjallarhorn after a nightfall might feel like a nice reward in the moment, but the weapon itself is a tool. It is something you can use, with unique abilities. Achievements/trophies are rewards, loot is actual gameplay content. Not to dismiss the point you're making, but I do feel there is an important distinction here.

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To me, Destiny is like Halo, except you get the occasional reward for playing.

I don't think it's accurate to refer to loot in Destiny as rewards... not exactly. Getting Gjallarhorn after a nightfall might feel like a nice reward in the moment, but the weapon itself is a tool. It is something you can use, with unique abilities. Achievements/trophies are rewards, loot is actual gameplay content. Not to dismiss the point you're making, but I do feel there is an important distinction here.

To the extent that a few weapons are game changers I concede the point, but the game was fun before I got those weapons. I had this thought the other night when I killed Draksis is about ten seconds with Ghallerhorn. That was cool, but a little disappointing. Was it more fun than when I could barely kill him and had to run around that room to keep him from killing me? Not really.

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Have you ever run against an entire team in the crucible competently using Hawkmoons?

I have. It's not pretty.

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Have you ever run against an entire team in the crucible competently using Hawkmoons?

I have. It's not pretty.

Tuesday night, I think. That's a balance problem, and I'm glad I'm not the one charged with solving it.

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To me, Destiny is like Halo, except you get the occasional reward for playing.

I don't think it's accurate to refer to loot in Destiny as rewards... not exactly. Getting Gjallarhorn after a nightfall might feel like a nice reward in the moment, but the weapon itself is a tool. It is something you can use, with unique abilities. Achievements/trophies are rewards, loot is actual gameplay content. Not to dismiss the point you're making, but I do feel there is an important distinction here.

To the extent that a few weapons are game changers I concede the point, but the game was fun before I got those weapons. I had this thought the other night when I killed Draksis is about ten seconds with Ghallerhorn. That was cool, but a little disappointing. Was it more fun than when I could barely kill him and had to run around that room to keep him from killing me? Not really.

If all the exotics were seen as aspects of the game rather than rewards, and available by means other than RNG, then Bungie could design bosses that are challenging even if you have Gjallarhorn, because they could expect all players to have it as part of their arsenal and design the encounter around this fact. Right now if your entire fireteam has Gjallarhorn, it's easy city.

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To me, Destiny is like Halo, except you get the occasional reward for playing.

I don't think it's accurate to refer to loot in Destiny as rewards... not exactly. Getting Gjallarhorn after a nightfall might feel like a nice reward in the moment, but the weapon itself is a tool. It is something you can use, with unique abilities. Achievements/trophies are rewards, loot is actual gameplay content. Not to dismiss the point you're making, but I do feel there is an important distinction here.

To the extent that a few weapons are game changers I concede the point, but the game was fun before I got those weapons. I had this thought the other night when I killed Draksis is about ten seconds with Ghallerhorn. That was cool, but a little disappointing. Was it more fun than when I could barely kill him and had to run around that room to keep him from killing me? Not really.

If all the exotics were seen as aspects of the game rather than rewards, and available by means other than RNG, then Bungie could design bosses that are challenging even if you have Gjallarhorn, because they could expect all players to have it as part of their arsenal and design the encounter around this fact. Right now if your entire fireteam has Gjallarhorn, it's easy city.

What if they had no exotics or no legendary challenges? That would be interesting.

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To me, Destiny is like Halo, except you get the occasional reward for playing.

I don't think it's accurate to refer to loot in Destiny as rewards... not exactly. Getting Gjallarhorn after a nightfall might feel like a nice reward in the moment, but the weapon itself is a tool. It is something you can use, with unique abilities. Achievements/trophies are rewards, loot is actual gameplay content. Not to dismiss the point you're making, but I do feel there is an important distinction here.

To the extent that a few weapons are game changers I concede the point, but the game was fun before I got those weapons. I had this thought the other night when I killed Draksis is about ten seconds with Ghallerhorn. That was cool, but a little disappointing. Was it more fun than when I could barely kill him and had to run around that room to keep him from killing me? Not really.

I totally see your point, but there is the other side of the coin where many boss fights took waaaaay too long before I had my Gjallarhorn :)

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When, latency allowing, you could play coop levels with friends online? That to me brought a whole new level of fun to Halo, in addition to the kickass multiplayer.

Heck, look at ODST. The most limited Halo release that Bungie put out, and yet it's still the best. The Firefight missions were simple and repetitive by nature, but I could hop into one at any time and have a blast.

To me, Destiny is like Halo, except you get the occasional reward for playing.

A random reward, and that randomness alone should negate anybody having a dependency. Play the game for fun, get something nice sometimes. Win/win!

I can tell you as a former WoW min-maxing raider, the shortest route to becoming disgruntled with a game is to focus on an item, and allow that focus to drive your interest in playing the game.

I have never liked that, and I'm thankful I've never been that kind of person, since I just see it as unnecessary stress. It exists in Destiny too, for some; whether it's the gear stats, or the desire to have 331 weapons instead of 300. The difference is so minimal that you most likely won't notice a single difference, so why suffer undue stress?

You will get the item eventually, and then you'll put the game down, thinking "I'm done now," and you'll run the risk of having missed out on all the great moments getting there.

I totally agree.

I love Destiny, but I have zero desire to play it. It really didn't take me too long (all things considered) to have basically everything in the game (except 4th Horseman and Black Hammer), so I've only played it for fun, but I definitely do feel fatigue set in from everything I do being pretty pointless until HoW. It's weird, I could shard my Hawkmoon for lulz and not miss it, because I can still play the game. There's plenty to fill in that hole, playstyle-wise, so it's not a big deal. Same goes for Gjallarhorn, same goes for Heart of the Praxic Fire. The game is the same, so don't worry about the loot. Having the loot makes you not want to play as much. Once I got the Hawkmoon (the one weapon I wanted since the game came out besides Gjallarhorn and Monte Carlo), I felt like I had beaten the game. Imagine the great stuff I would have missed out with friends, like the insane 3000+ point comeback we made in IB when the enemy was 600 points from victory... All because I simply liked the IB chest for the Hunter. Had it not been for that incentive, I wouldn't have touched Destiny the whole week.

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'Everyone else'?

Are we still talking about Hawkmoon? I doubt 5% of the population has one. (And I mean the PS4 population - add in the Xbox population, and the numbers go even lower.)

I'm sure you're right in the grand scheme of things, but when you're playing with a group of ultra hardcore fans who sink hundreds of hours into the game, it can feel like everyone has the 1 weapon you are missing. I actually joked that we should all equip our Hawkmoons next time we run a raid with Cody just to troll him, which is

a) totally mean and I'm glad we didn't do it,

but

b) it's actually possible because pretty much all of us who run late-night raids together on the PS4 do have Hawkmoon... except for Cody ;p

The thing we all need to remember though is that none of us have EVERYTHING (I don't think). We all have some elusive piece of gear we're still chasing. Even if it's just more of a weapon we already have. I get jealous when I see someone getting their 5th Gjallarhorn from a nightfall, because I still *only* have 1 ;p

If the game worked the way Cody wants it to work, I might have stopped playing PvE at this point - I play it now because it's a fun way to get (and level up) new weapons, but if I could just take whatever caught my eye, I'd skip it and spend all my time in PvP.

And that would be a loss, for me. I'm happy that's not the case.

But would that really be a loss? If PvP is what you enjoy more, wouldn't it be better to just spend your time doing that?

I have lots of little nitpicky complaints about Destiny, and the vast majority of them all boil down to the fact that Destiny constantly forces me to choose between doing the stuff I want to do for fun, and the stuff I need to do to progress.

Let's say I'm in the mood to jump into the ROC Strike playlist for a while. I sign in and hit the tower to collect some bounties. Maybe there are 2 story mission bounties, a patrol bounty, a public event bounty, collect whatsamacallits from the cosmodrome bounty, and a fusion rifle bounty. Well crap. Looks like I'm not doing the strike playlist today after all.

Of course, I could just forget about the bounties and play the strike playlist. But then I'm missing out on thousands of XP points to put towards upgrading my gear. I can either have fun or be productive. I think Destiny would be better if it didn't put the player in these kinds of positions.

Getting back to Cody's point, if I could choose to complete a specific task to earn a specific weapon, I could then spend my time enjoying my new weapon and playing the game in whatever way I want, rather than focusing on only doing activities that provide a slim chance of dropping the weapons I still want. I'm playing the game either way... 1 option is just more enjoyable than the other :)

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But would that really be a loss? If PvP is what you enjoy more, wouldn't it be better to just spend your time doing that?

This is a Cody question. (Which means it's beneath you. ;) )

No, absolutely not.

I like cookies more than I like spinach. Your argument would be that it would be better if I just spent my time eating cookies. That's obviously wrong, and you would never actually MAKE that argument (about food) - and yet you're making it here.

PvP and PvE are different experiences, and give me different kinds of enjoyment. I LIKE that I get both - but I don't always think with the logical part of my brain, and if I didn't have something nudging me to play PvE, I might not choose to do it. (And then be less happy overall. Go figure.)

Sometimes what I want in the moment and what I want overall are at odds - and I'm glad that there are systems in place to keep me from letting my id make all the choices. :)

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We just have different preferences there :)

I enjoy a range of activities, too. I just prefer to do whatever I'm in the mood for at that moment, rather than what the game tells me to do at the moment.

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I was just re-reading this, and I wanted to clarify the point I was trying to make since it looks like it didn't come across :)

I like cookies more than I like spinach. Your argument would be that it would be better if I just spent my time eating cookies. That's obviously wrong, and you would never actually MAKE that argument (about food) - and yet you're making it here.

That's not actually the argument I'm trying to make at all (although mmmmmmmmm cookies ;p)

I'm not saying you should only ever play PvP. I'm also going to avoid running with the PvP vs PvE comparison since there are separate bounties for both which makes my point a bit foggier. Sticking with your analogy: I love cookies, and I enjoy eating spinach from time to time as well. But if I sit down at 10pm to relax, have a cup of tea, and I say to myself "a cookie sure would be nice right now", I don't want someone to intervene and say "actually, you're going to have some spinach right now". But that's exactly what Destiny does, IF the player cares about making progress with their gear (as I do).

Sometimes what I want in the moment and what I want overall are at odds - and I'm glad that there are systems in place to keep me from letting my id make all the choices. :)

I would probably feel the same way, IF I thought there were some intentional design at work with the selection of bounties each day. But more often than not, I go to the tower to grab bounties and say to myself "really? The Archive, AGAIN? That's the 5th time this week!".

On that note, I did have some great luck with complimentary bounties a few days ago, and it was AWESOME. I was working on 5 or 6 bounties that all could or must be done in patrol mode. It made Patrol 10 times more fun than usual, because I had so many goals to work towards and juggle. I was hunting blades of Crota, while looking for public events, while completing patrol missions, while getting fusion rifle double kills and generating orbs of light.

That was a great case of bounties compelling me to do an activity I wouldn't normally do, and I ended up having a great time. I'd love to see combinations of bounties like that more often :)

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I'm sort of on Funkmon's side of this. I just got Fatebringer and Gjallarhorn recently - and I love them both, but I don't feel like I've wasted the last 6 months of playing because I played without them. They're great - but I had other stuff I was happy with before they dropped. (I say 'sort of' because I think both of them are going to change the way I play, while he doesn't even think that.)

I know you love The Last Word. You've said so. You have fun using it, and it makes you a better player.

Imagine, knowing how much you like it (maybe, you were using a friend's character and account with access to one for example), would it not SUCK to be unable to use it because of an RNG? If Xur never sold it, and it never dropped for you, think about all the fun you've had with the gun that would not have happened.

Would that not be the dumbest thing?

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I'm sort of on Funkmon's side of this. I just got Fatebringer and Gjallarhorn recently - and I love them both, but I don't feel like I've wasted the last 6 months of playing because I played without them. They're great - but I had other stuff I was happy with before they dropped. (I say 'sort of' because I think both of them are going to change the way I play, while he doesn't even think that.)

I know you love The Last Word. You've said so. You have fun using it, and it makes you a better player.

Imagine, knowing how much you like it (maybe, you were using a friend's character and account with access to one for example), would it not SUCK to be unable to use it because of an RNG? If Xur never sold it, and it never dropped for you, think about all the fun you've had with the gun that would not have happened.

Would that not be the dumbest thing?

Nope. It just means I'd need to get good some other way.

::shrug::

We're never going to see eye to eye on this, Cody. I enjoy Destiny for what it is (while still being able to appreciate the things it's not, or the things it might be someday). You seem to look at Destiny from the standpoint of what it lacks. I'd have quit playing and found something else to do MONTHS ago if I saw the game the way you do. I really don't understand why you're still here. (Yeah, I know you've said there are things that are great - but you can't possibly spend much time thinking about them, given how much time we see you focused on the negative.)

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We're never going to see eye to eye on this, Cody. I enjoy Destiny for what it is (while still being able to appreciate the things it's not, or the things it might be someday). You seem to look at Destiny from the standpoint of what it lacks. I'd have quit playing and found something else to do MONTHS ago if I saw the game the way you do. I really don't understand why you're still here. (Yeah, I know you've said there are things that are great - but you can't possibly spend much time thinking about them, given how much time we see you focused on the negative.)

I am honestly shocked that you would disregard the fun you had with that weapon. If you really feel that way, delete it right now. Go on… would you still want to get good some other way, or would you be really really bummed out? There's no way you'd delete it, because I know you don't actually believe what you just typed.

Just like how you know what I think of this game outside of what I type on the forums. :-p

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We're never going to see eye to eye on this, Cody. I enjoy Destiny for what it is (while still being able to appreciate the things it's not, or the things it might be someday). You seem to look at Destiny from the standpoint of what it lacks. I'd have quit playing and found something else to do MONTHS ago if I saw the game the way you do. I really don't understand why you're still here. (Yeah, I know you've said there are things that are great - but you can't possibly spend much time thinking about them, given how much time we see you focused on the negative.)

I am honestly shocked that you would disregard the fun you had with that weapon. If you really feel that way, delete it right now. Go on… would you still want to get good some other way, or would you be really really bummed out? There's no way you'd delete it, because I know you don't actually believe what you just typed.

See - you read what I say with the same sense of absolutism that I decry in your posts. If I hate it when you do it, why do you think *I* do it?

I do NOT disregard the fun I have with that weapon. I LOVE that weapon. I have no intention of sharding it to prove a point i hadn't even made.

What I said was, if the game FORCED me to play without it (it never will, but I was willing to play your thought experiment), I'd still have fun. That's so far different from "I totally disregard the fun I have with that weapon that I'm willing to shard it right now" that I can't even UNDERSTAND how you consider them comparable.

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What I said was, if the game FORCED me to play without it (it never will, but I was willing to play your thought experiment), I'd still have fun.

Okay, but man, the fun you have with The Last Word is the fun I want to have with Hawkmoon. That's why I made the comparison. The game would be better if I could have fun with all the guns and playstyles it offers, instead of just the ones an RNG gives me. If you never had a Last Word you'd still have fun, but not the type of fun you DO HAVE with the gun. Why should that be kept locked away?

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What I said was, if the game FORCED me to play without it (it never will, but I was willing to play your thought experiment), I'd still have fun.

Okay, but man, the fun you have with The Last Word is the fun I want to have with Hawkmoon. That's why I made the comparison. The game would be better if I could have fun with all the guns and playstyles it offers, instead of just the ones an RNG gives me. If you never had a Last Word you'd still have fun, but not the type of fun you DO HAVE with the gun. Why should that be kept locked away?

How do you know? (I didn't know TLW would resonate with me the way it does. There are plenty of people who have TLW and don't play with it, because it doesn't suit them as well as they thought it might.)

Before TLW came along, I used what I had, and I enjoyed it. I've certainly looked forward to weapons - but for the most part, when I get them, I level them up, try them out, and then stick them in the vault, because they don't live up to what I thought they'd be.

How do you know Hawkmoon won't be like this for you?

Why not simply enjoy what you HAVE, and play with Hawkmoon if it ever drops for you?

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No, I don't dislike the game at all. It's just that the parts I DON'T like are MADDENING!

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No, I don't dislike the game at all. It's just that the parts I DON'T like are MADDENING!

...only because you choose to let them be so. You may not have all the control you desire when it comes to randomly acquiring things, but your reaction to such scenarios is subject to no such RNG.

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What bugs me, and why I can understand Cody's frustration, is the one weapon I intentionally set out to get never drops for me. Part of that desire for it is completionism, having all the raid weapons from VoG, and part of that is that I just really like hand cannons, which Fatebringer is one of the best.

Well, that's only true of the guns that haven't dropped for you yet. For instance, I really really really wanted Red Death from November till when Xur sold me two in March. I wanted it as much as Cody wants Hawkmoon. But, I didn't have any great want for Invective or Thunderlord or Bad Juju during that same period even though they too are great guns. Why? Because I already had them! Swap out Red Death for any of those and maybe I would have still been pulling my hair out annoyed... just over a different gun.

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What bugs me, and why I can understand Cody's frustration, is the one weapon I intentionally set out to get never drops for me. Part of that desire for it is completionism, having all the raid weapons from VoG, and part of that is that I just really like hand cannons, which Fatebringer is one of the best.

Well, that's only true of the guns that haven't dropped for you yet. For instance, I really really really wanted Red Death from November till when Xur sold me two in March. I wanted it as much as Cody wants Hawkmoon. But, I didn't have any great want for Invective or Thunderlord or Bad Juju during that same period even though they too are great guns. Why? Because I already had them! Swap out Red Death for any of those and maybe I would have still been pulling my hair out annoyed... just over a different gun.

That's me and the Necrochasm. I know I will hate the gun and never use it. But it's one of only 2 exotics and the only raid weapon I'm still missing, so I NEED IT lol.

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See I think each gun also allows you to play the game differently (which potentially is the way YOU want to play) and to be honest it's a part of the game that you should be able to experience. Making it random does lead you to play it longer, that doesn't mean it will be fun though (even if you aren't playing for that gun).

Also Ghorn IS the be all end all of guns. My time on things and what I can do has changed drastically since I got that gun.

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I just know I didn't mind not having Fatebringer. I do now, and it's good. Mythoclast is also good...but they're not my fave guns. With Iron Banner, you can get yourself basically your perfect gun with enough work. Is it elemental? No, but you can get Oversoul Edict pretty simply running the Abyss on hard mode a few times. There's an arc gun. Solar, run the bridge or get Vision of Confluence. Void, get Epilogue. Word of Crota's harder, but eh. Whatever. You can do it sometime.

You don't need these guns, Blue. They're just nice things. I only got Thunderlord, the Gjallarhorn, and Fatebringer recently, and they have added very little to my game. They're just fun guns with little perks. It's not like you can't buy a TFWPKY or The Chance or something to replace a hand cannon or another arc primary.

Maybe I don't take the game as seriously as you guys.

I've gotta disagree with you here. Specific weapons ARE game changers. Ice Breaker literally changes the way you can approach encounters. So does Gjallarhorn. So does Fatebringer, Black Hammer, and a handful of others. Some people may enjoy/rely on certain weapons more than others, but the key point here is that all weapons in Destiny are NOT created equal.

Not only that, but the solutions you are presenting are glossing right over the frustrating RNG factor. "Just get Vision of Confluence". It took me almost 50 VoG runs to get Vision of Confluence to drop. Easy, right? -____-

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Not only that, but the solutions you are presenting are glossing right over the frustrating RNG factor. "Just get Vision of Confluence". It took me almost 50 VoG runs to get Vision of Confluence to drop. Easy, right? -____-

But that's sort of the point, right? Either you can ignore comments like that (and they're common on EVERY Destiny forum - I am sometimes AMAZED by how often I see "X is simple - just run it with Y and Z" - when I haven't ever seen Y and Z) - or you're bothered by the fact that someone has something you don't.

Cody is clearly bothered by the fact that he doesn't have a Hawkmoon yet.

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Some of these are rare, I know, but what I'm trying to say is that you don't NEED the Mythoclast for a solar primary. You can get VoC or Abyss Defiant. I'm just pointing out there are alternatives, and lusting after one gun instead of one of these that can fill the void, in my opinion, is not good.

As for game changing guns, it seems to me that Icebreaker is at the top, followed by Black Hammer, the raid rocket launchers/Gjallarhorn, and Red Death or Suros (for obvious reasons). for many players. Gjallarhorn did not change how I played, however. I had Hunger of Crota, Hezen Vengeance, and Dragon's Breath. Shriekers die to one DB shot, for example. Most dudes take almost as much damage from HoC as Gjallarhorn, so not using it means I take a small damage penalty, but it's not a huge deal for me most of the time, and I'm often using a different exotic anyway. I also generally prefer field scout machine guns since they do more total damage over the course of the ammo reserves.

For many players, Gjallarhorn will change their game...but not if they already had a ton of alternatives, like I did, and like how a lot of us who wish for it do. It streamlines the game, that's nice.

However, at this point, Fatebringer does about as much damage as Word of Crota, TFWPKY, The Chance, and significantly less than Timur's Lash. The first three are broadly comparable, and Timur's Lash can be your custom handcannon with enough motes. Mine has rangefinder, field scout, a reload perk, and a good sight, which is perfect to me.

What Fatebringer has these don't have is arc damage, which, again, can be replaced with other guns, and firefly. Firefly has immense utility killing low level mobs, like thralls. But not more immense than a grenade. There are situations when this is very useful, like normal mode abyss, but I use the icebreaker anyway since it's even better at it.

So, while fatebringer can streamline your strategy, it just means you won't be using your grenades as much.

There are truly no replacements for Black Hammer and Icebreaker, though. You can do a workaround using special ammo synths, but these cost money and have a cool down. Though, that's why I didn't claim they weren't game changers.

Anyway, it's not that important. It's just people want a gun in a video game.

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Some of these are rare, I know, but what I'm trying to say is that you don't NEED the Mythoclast for a solar primary. You can get VoC or Abyss Defiant. I'm just pointing out there are alternatives, and lusting after one gun instead of one of these that can fill the void, in my opinion, is not good.

I think, for some people at least, it's not just about having a solar primary, or a powerful hand cannon, etc. Sometimes there is something about a specific weapon that just jumps out at us and makes us want it. Maybe it's as simple as the way it looks or sounds. That was me with Monte Carlo. I hardly ever use it, but I absolutely adore the aesthetics of the weapon. I was on cloud 9 when I finally got one.

Most dudes take almost as much damage from HoC as Gjallarhorn, so not using it means I take a small damage penalty, but it's not a huge deal for me most of the time,

Gjallarhorn does roughly double the damage of any other rocket launcher against a single target. The only other launcher that comes close is Dragon's Breath, but only against stationary targets (like the shriekers). Against lower level enemies, all rocket launchers feel pretty similar, but against tougher targets Gjallarhorn is lightyears ahead. For example:

Try doing this with Hunger of Crota. It will take about twice as many rockets, if not more. Not to knock HoC or any other rocket launchers... lots of them are great and fun to use. I'm just saying that the difference is more significant than you're making it out to be.

However, at this point, Fatebringer does about as much damage as Word of Crota, TFWPKY, The Chance, and significantly less than Timur's Lash. The first three are broadly comparable, and Timur's Lash can be your custom handcannon with enough motes. Mine has rangefinder, field scout, a reload perk, and a good sight, which is perfect to me.

What Fatebringer has these don't have is arc damage, which, again, can be replaced with other guns, and firefly. Firefly has immense utility killing low level mobs, like thralls. But not more immense than a grenade. There are situations when this is very useful, like normal mode abyss, but I use the icebreaker anyway since it's even better at it.

So, while fatebringer can streamline your strategy, it just means you won't be using your grenades as much.

I think that's really underselling the usefulness of Firefly. The vast majority of PvE encounters are low-level mobs. A high impact weapon like Fatebringer with Firefly can kill multiple enemies with every single pull of the trigger. That's not something that can be replaced by throwing a few more grenades. It redefines your ability to manage crowds.

Now there are plenty of Scout Rifles with Firefly, and they're great. I've just finished upgreading my ANitC with Explosive Rounds and Firefly, and I'm totally in love with it :)

But Fatebringer still has the advantage in close-midrange combat, which is often the range you find yourself in when engaging mobs of low level enemies.

Anyway, it's not that important. It's just people want a gun in a video game.

None of this is actually important, we're all just having fun :)

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4 Wizards, 4 rockets. No rockets on Crota, I just used a machine gun. I also narrated it, so turn up the volume a bit. Similar completion times despite the lightswitch modifier, though I was obviously slower.

Despite the fact that you managed to pick the encounter in the game most suited to the Gjallarhorn (in fact, more than any other gun) in that there are floating enemies with solar shields, which is uncommon through most of the game, HoC used the same amount of rockets for the first part, and probably would have only gone through a few more for the second part (maybe 50% more, but even at double, still fewer than you anticipated). However, this is not how I play, and my statement was about how I played. The really important part of that encounter is nailing the wizards quickly, since you can just run to the hiding spot. Your strategy is more streamlined, and I understand why that gun can be game changing to some people. Just not to me.

Anyway, I think this proves my point: even in a situation where Gjallarhorn is ideal, it doesn't make a massive game changing difference to me. Killing ogres, huge numbers of dudes, knights, minotaurs, hydras, cyclopes, praetorians, archon priests, and so on, there just is not a huge difference to how I play, and except in very few situations (nexus, omnigul, a couple others) does it really matter how I approach that encounter.

But, in a speedrun, of course I'd go with the Gjallarhorn. In fact, I did, and posted a video of the Nexus speedrun. Nobody claimed a 1 minute boss speedrun could be done with any weapon.

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I should've been more clear: what I was talking about was using Gjallarhorn to take down the crystal. I just used it on the wizards because I happened to have enough rockets (I usually snipe them).

Remember, my point was regarding targets with high health... Boss level enemies. A single rocket from any legendary or exotic launcher is often a bough to bring down a wizard.

Cool video though :)

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I should've been more clear: what I was talking about was using Gjallarhorn to take down the crystal. I just used it on the wizards because I happened to have enough rockets (I usually snipe them).

Remember, my point was regarding targets with high health... Boss level enemies. A single rocket from any legendary or exotic launcher is often a bough to bring down a wizard.

Yes. Try taking down a Major Wizard on the hard mode raid with a normal rocket launcher. It takes 2 Gjallarhorn rockets. That's 4+ rockets with whatever you'd be using instead. If I recall the Wizards on that mission are all normal.

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I should've been more clear: what I was talking about was using Gjallarhorn to take down the crystal. I just used it on the wizards because I happened to have enough rockets (I usually snipe them).

Remember, my point was regarding targets with high health... Boss level enemies. A single rocket from any legendary or exotic launcher is often a bough to bring down a wizard.

Yes. Try taking down a Major Wizard on the hard mode raid with a normal rocket launcher. It takes 2 Gjallarhorn rockets. That's 4+ rockets with whatever you'd be using instead. If I recall the Wizards on that mission are all normal.

I don't have the exact numbers in front of me, but each Wolfpack round does a little over 200 damage, and there's somewhere between 8-10 Wolfpack rounds per Gjallarhorn rocket. So that's roughly 2000 extra damage per shot, which is almost as much as a whole other rocket. The "Gjallarhorn is twice as powerful as any other rocket launcher" statement really isn't much of an exaggeration.

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Clusters that fall to the ground, missing the target and doing no damage. You're really off the mark if you think Hunger of Crota does almost as much damage. Just go to the waking ruins on Venus, find one of the level 26 Praetorians, and fire a Hunger of Crota rocket at it. You'll barely pop its shield. Then find a fresh one and fire a Gjallarhorn rocket at it. You'll either leave it with a sliver of health, or kill it outright.

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If I recall the Wizards on that mission are all normal.

In what mission, the one I just posted a video of?

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If I recall the Wizards on that mission are all normal.

In what mission, the one I just posted a video of?

I recall wrong, they were Majors.

I'm guessing the 2 Gjallarhorn shots in the raid is because of the 33% damage reduction for being under leveled, and because they are level 33 and have more hp.

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You seem to think I'm some kind of imbecile not acknowledging that Gjallarhorn is a better gun than the others. Of course it is. MOST enemies there isn't a huge difference, though. So let's do literally any other boss that isn't the Nexus or a templar, and we'll see.

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You seem to think I'm some kind of imbecile not acknowledging that Gjallarhorn is a better gun than the others. Of course it is. MOST enemies there isn't a huge difference, though. So let's do literally any other boss that isn't the Nexus or a templar, and we'll see.

I'm not trying to imply anything like that, and I really am sorry if it came across that way. I'm saying that Gjallarhorn does almost double the damage per shot to a single target than any other rocket launcher.

Yes, other rocket launchers will kill weaker targets just as fast. Of course they will. The only thing I'm saying is that Gjallarhorn will take down high HP targets twice as fast as any other rockets launcher.

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Nobody's arguing that there aren't alternatives. This thread didn't start with "I can't play the game because I don't have Hawkmoon." Cody just thinks he'd be having more fun if he had a surefire way to get Hawkmoon, vs. the current situation where he does not.

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But this wasn't talking about that, this is a subconversation about whether these guns change the game.

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They're just fun guns with little perks.

SO WHY CAN'T I HAVE FUN WITH A HAWKMOON THEN?!

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[image]

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They're just fun guns with little perks.

SO WHY CAN'T I HAVE FUN WITH A HAWKMOON THEN?!

Hopefully because you're petulant. I hope now that Bungie has a Recon-style "do not give" list, and you're on it, because you don't deserve a great hand cannon with attitude and behavior like that.

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They're just fun guns with little perks.

SO WHY CAN'T I HAVE FUN WITH A HAWKMOON THEN?!

Hopefully because you're petulant. I hope now that Bungie has a Recon-style "do not give" list, and you're on it, because you don't deserve a great hand cannon with attitude and behavior like that.

Oh yes, because wanting to have as much fun as possible with a game I got is such a bad attitude. Sarcasm.

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They're just fun guns with little perks.

SO WHY CAN'T I HAVE FUN WITH A HAWKMOON THEN?!

Hopefully because you're petulant. I hope now that Bungie has a Recon-style "do not give" list, and you're on it, because you don't deserve a great hand cannon with attitude and behavior like that.

Oh yes, because wanting to have as much fun as possible with a game I got is such a bad attitude. Sarcasm.

Oh, is that sarcasm, is it really?

[image]

Ah, yep, it sure is.
Either you failed to understand what I'm referring to, or you're trying to refocus the conversation and act like I was being dumb in focusing on what I did, and I don't think you're dumb enough to not understand. Either way, you want a Hawkmoon? Well too bad.

[image]

At least you can play the game, my disk drive is on the fritz. It's spring, why don't you go outside or something, good fucking gracious.

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Either you failed to understand what I'm referring to, or you're trying to refocus the conversation and act like I was being dumb in focusing on what I did, and I don't think you're dumb enough to not understand. Either way, you want a Hawkmoon? Well too bad.

That's my entire point dude. If I buy a game, whether or not I get to experience part of it should NOT come down to being 'given' it. Not RNG, not the whims of the developer. Nobody but myself.

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Either you failed to understand what I'm referring to, or you're trying to refocus the conversation and act like I was being dumb in focusing on what I did, and I don't think you're dumb enough to not understand. Either way, you want a Hawkmoon? Well too bad.

That's my entire point dude. If I buy a game, whether or not I get to experience part of it should NOT come down to being 'given' it. Not RNG, not the whims of the developer. Nobody but myself.

I know that's your point. Everyone with decent reading comprehension that's read one of your threads knows that's your point. I don't care any more.
You acted like a child in that post and I felt like pointing it out. (clarification: you acted like a whiny little kid in your "why can't I have fun too?" yelling post, and then a snotty pre-teen in your "yeah sure, sarcasm" post) Maybe pointing that out is not the most mature thing in itself, but I'm dropping the discussion now, so the direction depends on what everyone else does.

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Imagine you went and bought Halo, but there was a multiplayer map that only unlocked as a random reward when playing multiplayer. You'd be annoyed no? I bought the game, why cant I play on the map?

Imagine you went and bought the Last of Us, but could only make nail bombs after getting instructions off a random drop from an enemy. Wouldn't that suck? The game is set up so that they are important items, and useful to progress. So why would I be locked out?

Imagine you were playing Beyond Two Souls or Heavy Rain or something, and you could only take certain story branches leading to the 'best' ending if a random event occurred during the course of the story. Would you not be bummed or frustrated?

What if you couldn't pick up the covenant carbine unless you were granted the ability from an extremely rare drop? Sucks?

So why is it normal, and encouraged for Exotic weapons like Hawkmoon, which are fantastically useful and a part of the game, to be locked away behind RNG? I bought the game, why can't I play with all its elements? How is that any different than any of the above scenarios?

Don't tell me that's just how MMOs work, because MMO is an objectively, demonstrably bad genre. Why aren't we past this?

It's fucking stupid, and I'm really bitter that I can't play with this gun until the fall simply because of random numbers.

My solution that would be minimally intrusive: if you roll an exotic, don't give out one that is already on the account (or weigh them much more heavily). Check, and give a new drop that the account doesn't have. I don't need 8 No Land Beyonds. Wow, so hard.

Now imagine you bought a game where there was a weapon that was exclusive to a console and you didn't have that console. It would suck wouldn't it?

At least you have the chance to get what you want. Most of us don't even get a chance.

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people can complain all they want about RNG sucking... but not even having a chance to "earn" something through RNG is even worse.

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people can complain all they want about RNG sucking... but not even having a chance to "earn" something through RNG is even worse.

This might sound kind of dickish, but I'm tired of hearing this argument, so I'll say it anyway:

That's on you.

It was made very, VERY clear during the ramp up to launch, and when pre-orders were being accepted, that Destiny on Playstation would have exclusives. Maps, Armour, Weapons, Alpha access.. you name it.

And that is a significant part of why I picked up a PS4. I still have a 360 that I very much love, and I could have held out, saved some money, and picked up Destiny for that, but I knew that I could be facing the situation you're facing now.

I decided that since I was probably going to get a new console at one point anyway to just bite the bullet then, and choose to upgrade to the platform that I knew would have a tangible benefit over the other.

Cody's point has nothing to do with what one console offers over the other. And I find the fact that you're trying to bring that into the argument reprehensible.

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people can complain all they want about RNG sucking... but not even having a chance to "earn" something through RNG is even worse.

This might sound kind of dickish, but I'm tired of hearing this argument, so I'll say it anyway:

That's on you.

It was made very, VERY clear during the ramp up to launch, and when pre-orders were being accepted, that Destiny on Playstation would have exclusives. Maps, Armour, Weapons, Alpha access.. you name it.

And that is a significant part of why I picked up a PS4. I still have a 360 that I very much love, and I could have held out, saved some money, and picked up Destiny for that, but I knew that I could be facing the situation you're facing now.

I decided that since I was probably going to get a new console at one point anyway to just bite the bullet then, and choose to upgrade to the platform that I knew would have a tangible benefit over the other.

Cody's point has nothing to do with what one console offers over the other. And I find the fact that you're trying to bring that into the argument reprehensible.

Meh. I see no problem with complaining about paying the same amount of money as Cody but getting access to less in game content. And what's "reprehensible" is assuming everyone can buy a new console when you could. That, and console exclusive content. :)

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Meh. I see no problem with complaining about paying the same amount of money as Cody but getting access to less in game content.

That's fair, but you knew you would be getting less content, and chose to pay it anyway.

And what's "reprehensible" is assuming everyone can buy a new console when you could. That, and console exclusive content. :)

I am not wealthy. I had to choose one of either console. And if money is that tight for you, maybe you should have looked around for a used PS3. There's no yearly online subscription, and you get all the in-game functionality and exclusives of the PS4 version.

How we deal with console exclusive content is our business as consumers.

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Meh. I see no problem with complaining about paying the same amount of money as Cody but getting access to less in game content.

That's fair, but you knew you would be getting less content, and chose to pay it anyway.

Right. But I think the larger point being made was it's a bit silly to complain about not having a weapon drop yet when some amount of people you are complaining to cannot have that weapon drop until the end of the year. Is it more frustrating to have access to something and not get it or to not have access at all despite making an equal investment? (For me, I'd definitely say the former. I so wanted Red Death but don't care much at all about Monte Carlo or Hawkmoon right now.)

How we deal with console exclusive content is our business as consumers.

I dealt with it by voting against it with my wallet. :p

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Cody's point has nothing to do with what one console offers over the other. And I find the fact that you're trying to bring that into the argument reprehensible.

Here's what his whole post boiled down to....

It's fucking stupid, and I'm really bitter that I can't play with this gun until the fall simply because of random numbers.

He's bitter about not getting a gun because of RNG. A gun that is exclusive to the Playstation ecosystem.

I paid the exact same amount (tax excluded) as any other person that preordered this game. I already had a day one edition XBone so I preordered for that console. I just find it funny when people complain about an exclusive item that I paid the same amount to have a chance at.

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Cody's point has nothing to do with what one console offers over the other. And I find the fact that you're trying to bring that into the argument reprehensible.

Here's what his whole post boiled down to....

It's fucking stupid, and I'm really bitter that I can't play with this gun until the fall simply because of random numbers.

He's bitter about not getting a gun because of RNG. A gun that is exclusive to the Playstation ecosystem.

I paid the exact same amount (tax excluded) as any other person that preordered this game. I already had a day one edition XBone so I preordered for that console. I just find it funny when people complain about an exclusive item that I paid the same amount to have a chance at.

Substitute Gjallarhorn or The Last Word for Hawkmoon, and my argument wouldn't change at all. Don't focus on the specific gun I don't have, but the principle I am condemning.

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Substitute Gjallarhorn or The Last Word for Hawkmoon, and my argument wouldn't change at all. Don't focus on the specific gun I don't have, but the principle I am condemning.

I agree with you on the principle that RNG is complete bullshit. You can insert anything I want (dead orbit ship, Bittersteel shader, etc....) into the I hate RNG argument.

At the end of the day I want to be able to have a clear path to get something I want. I don't want to rely on a small random occurrence to get something. It's a complete time sink and a waste of my valuable time.

When these arguments start involving time locked exclusive content then it really gets under my skin. If they nerf the hawkmoon into oblivion before it's available on the xbox ecosystem then It'll just be another disappointment to the Destiny checklist. At least you have had the chance at getting the item.

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Substitute Gjallarhorn or The Last Word for Hawkmoon, and my argument wouldn't change at all. Don't focus on the specific gun I don't have, but the principle I am condemning.

I agree with you on the principle that RNG is complete bullshit. You can insert anything I want (dead orbit ship, Bittersteel shader, etc....) into the I hate RNG argument.

At the end of the day I want to be able to have a clear path to get something I want. I don't want to rely on a small random occurrence to get something. It's a complete time sink and a waste of my valuable time.

When these arguments start involving time locked exclusive content then it really gets under my skin. If they nerf the hawkmoon into oblivion before it's available on the xbox ecosystem then It'll just be another disappointment to the Destiny checklist. At least you have had the chance at getting the item.

I'm completely with you man, and the RNG stuff is even MORE troubling because of what you just said: weapon balance changes. I'm sure there are people out there who have no idea, and never will have any idea, about how amazing Suros Regime or Pocket Infinity used to be. They'll never have that experience, because you can't play with a pre-patch weapon. An experience they may have had, had the RNG gone their way.

I didn't get a pocket Infinity until post nerf, because I never got the bounty for it, because the exotic bounties which come up are RNG.

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Yeah, but they more than likely got to play against it. And cussed it out more than once. Balance changes that fix overpowered weapons aren't something to be sad about.

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I paid the exact same amount (tax excluded) as any other person that preordered this game. I already had a day one edition XBone so I preordered for that console. I just find it funny when people complain about an exclusive item that I paid the same amount to have a chance at.

As others have said, we knew before either new console had launched that PS4 would be the lead platform for Destiny. Not defending the console exclusive stuff (it sucks), but we knew it was coming when we made our console choices.

The specific gun Cody really wants happens to be a PS exclusive, but the system he is complaining about effects everyone.

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As others have said, we knew before either new console had launched that PS4 would be the lead platform for Destiny. Not defending the console exclusive stuff (it sucks), but we knew it was coming when we made our console choices.

Eh, I made my console choice back in 2007 ;)

The specific gun Cody really wants happens to be a PS exclusive, but the system he is complaining about effects everyone.

True. :)

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The specific gun Cody really wants happens to be a PS exclusive, but the system he is complaining about effects everyone.

I am with Cody on the RNG system being bullshit. But the complaint about not getting a timed exclusive item just rubs me the wrong way. It's like the spoiled kid complaining about not have the best *insert item here* (not calling Cody spoiled) while everyone else plays with what is within their means.

Halo reach was one of my favorite games and biggest time sink next to Destiny. At least in Reach They had a progress bar towards the next armor unlock. It game me a clear path to get something I wanted.

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reprehensible.

lol

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people can complain all they want about RNG sucking... but not even having a chance to "earn" something through RNG is even worse.

This might sound kind of dickish, but I'm tired of hearing this argument, so I'll say it anyway:

That's on you.

It was made very, VERY clear during the ramp up to launch, and when pre-orders were being accepted, that Destiny on Playstation would have exclusives. Maps, Armour, Weapons, Alpha access.. you name it.

I understand what you are saying. But what I'm saying is for people like me, it's a lose lose situation. I say people like me because I picked up an Xbox for Halo, and then I picked up a Xbox 360, Now because of Destiny, I picked up a XBone. I don't like playing stuff on the PS, not because I think it's a bad console, I just don't like playing with the controller. You can say "It's on me" but I guess it's my fault for choosing between playing a console that I like with less content or choosing a console I don't like just so I can play everything that was developed for a game. Yeah, it was totally all my fault.

I will say it, Bungie and every company that does exclusive content for a given console are dicks. I'm sure PS strong armed Bungie into doing it, but I don't care. You have to have some damned integrity.

And for the record, I wasn't "In the know" about all the exclusive content for PS. Until yesterday, I didn't know about any of it except the weapons. Maybe I'm just oblivious.

Okay, rant done.

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I understand what you are saying. But what I'm saying is for people like me, it's a lose lose situation. I say people like me because I picked up an Xbox for Halo, and then I picked up a Xbox 360, Now because of Destiny, I picked up a XBone. I don't like playing stuff on the PS, not because I think it's a bad console, I just don't like playing with the controller. You can say "It's on me" but I guess it's my fault for choosing between playing a console that I like with less content or choosing a console I don't like just so I can play everything that was developed for a game. Yeah, it was totally all my fault.

And that's if you only take Destiny into account. For someone like me who's into racing sims, there was never any choice. PS4 doesn't have a Gran Turismo game out yet, and even if it did, the last couple entries were pretty meh. I was always going to have an XBone, period. So the choice for me was either play Destiny on that, or buy BOTH consoles (not really feasible).

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I will say it, Bungie and every company that does exclusive content for a given console are dicks.

I would amend that, since Naughty Dog, who does so much exclusive content for playstation that their entire games are exclusive, are certainly not dicks.

You are a dick if your multiplatform game has exclusive content on one platform which is not the result of a technical compromise.

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I will say it, Bungie and every company that does exclusive content for a given console are dicks.

I would amend that, since Naughty Dog, who does so much exclusive content for playstation that their entire games are exclusive, are certainly not dicks.

I don't fully understand this.

You are a dick if your multiplatform game has exclusive content on one platform which is not the result of a technical compromise.

Sorry, I should have been more precise. This is what I meant.

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people can complain all they want about RNG sucking... but not even having a chance to "earn" something through RNG is even worse.

At some level I'm not sure I'd agree. If the pursuit of something was frustrating me, I may very well have a better time if it simply wasn't an option.

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Now imagine you bought a game where there was a weapon that was exclusive to a console and you didn't have that console. It would suck wouldn't it?

At least you have the chance to get what you want. Most of us don't even get a chance.

It does, and I have never ever defended that practice at all. Bungie doing that was really shitty. You also miss out on two of the most fun strikes.

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Now imagine you bought a game where there was a weapon that was exclusive to a console and you didn't have that console. It would suck wouldn't it?

It would suck if you hadn't been informed, yes. But everybody was informed back during the PS4 reveal. Not only that, but well before the game launched, the exclusives were clearly detailed. It makes me chuckle to think of how people were like "It's probably crap weapons that you'll dump after level 5" or "An exclusive Strike? I bet there's at least 20 strikes!"

It is kind of sad, in hindsight, but people KNEW...

At least you have the chance to get what you want. Most of us don't even get a chance.

Not only that, but when it does become available, most people will also go seven months without it dropping, Xur aside...

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It makes me chuckle to think of how people were like "It's probably crap weapons that you'll dump after level 5" or "An exclusive Strike? I bet there's at least 20 strikes!"

Yeah, it seemed like a reasonable assumption at the time. Usually platform exclusives are just cosmetic fluff.

Not only that, but when it does become available, most people will also go seven months without it dropping, Xur aside...

I can't wait until I get to be disappointed and outraged! I'll start formatting my ragepost now to save time.

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I can't wait until I get to be disappointed and outraged! I'll start formatting my ragepost now to save time.

I'm disappointed and outraged about not being able to be disappointed and outraged! *cloaks*

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Joking aside, I think you're right. The lack of direct ways to earn the gear you want is a problem, and it becomes more apparent the longer you play (and the more gear you accumulate).

I would love to hear more from Bungie on this subject. When they've addressed the nature of RNG in the past, I've been a bit confused by their stance and intentions. I think it was during a GDC talk where someone from Bungie said something to the effect of "we didn't expect RNG to be such a big deal... We thought people would just buy the gear they wanted, with the RNG adding a little bonus on top".

But... Wouldn't that only make sense if all the gear was available to buy? When you take the best gear in the game and hide it behind an RNG barrier, OF COURSE it will be a big deal.

Bungie's design intentions behind Exotic Gear also play a big part in this. They've more recently talked about the desire to create exotics that are more "unique" than they are "powerful". Weapons like No Land Beyond or Necrochasm that are only useful within a specific playstyle in specific scenarios. If this were the case with ALL exotics, then the idea of keeping them locked behind RNG is not as bad (still bad, IMO, just not as much). But not all exotics follow this philosophy. Some are clearly, definitively more powerful than any other weapons in the game. How could Bungie expect us to focus on buying vendor gear when weapons like Gjallarhorn and Hawkmoon are floating around out there?

I feel like we're missing part of the equation here.

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But... Wouldn't that only make sense if all the gear was available to buy? When you take the best gear in the game and hide it behind an RNG barrier, OF COURSE it will be a big deal.

And again, my solution of weighting exotics that haven't dropped for you yet more heavily when you DO get an exotic drop would go so far to mitigate this problem, and would be an extremely unobtrusive solution.

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But... Wouldn't that only make sense if all the gear was available to buy? When you take the best gear in the game and hide it behind an RNG barrier, OF COURSE it will be a big deal.

And again, my solution of weighting exotics that haven't dropped for you yet more heavily when you DO get an exotic drop would go so far to mitigate this problem, and would be an extremely unobtrusive solution.

Seriously this. 3 Hawkmoon, 3 (4?) Hard lights, 3 No Land Beyonds ... etc, etc, etc. I feel like I'm rolling in exotics, if I put them all in the vault I could go swimming Scrooge McDuck style, but still, No Gjallarhorn.

I also wish it would do this with raid weapons too. I FINALLY got that sniper I've been wanting.

I chuckled when I got that third Hawkmoon because of the irony of it. I hope you didn't feel I was chuckling at you or how much RNG hates you. It hates me too, just in other ways... Gjallarhorn.

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Don't tell me that's just how MMOs work, because MMO is an objectively, demonstrably bad genre. Why aren't we past this?

Why aren't you past declaring things objectively this or that?!

It's already hard to have sympathy for you not yet acquiring a gun when I paid at least as much money as you did and I don't even have a chance to get the gun you want... not to mention the Strikes and Crucible maps that are locked away from me. Maybe you should take your platform exclusivity privilege and your broken record absolutism and for once just be happy with what you do have...

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Why aren't you past declaring things objectively this or that?!

Because subjectivity is a waste of time?

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Because subjectivity is a waste of time?

Let's presume that this is true;

Whether one's time is wasted or not depends on one's preferences.

Thus, discussion of wastes of time is subjective.

Thus, discussions of wastes of time are wastes of time.

Thus, this is a waste of time.

...What do you know, I didn't find a contradiction.

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It's already hard to have sympathy for you not yet acquiring a gun when I paid at least as much money as you did and I don't even have a chance to get the gun you want... not to mention the Strikes and Crucible maps that are locked away from me. Maybe you should take your platform exclusivity privilege and your broken record absolutism and for once just be happy with what you do have...

You had exactly the same chance I had: you could have gotten a PS4 or played it on a PS3. You chose not to take it. Not that the exclusive content isn't shitty, but you made a deliberate choice not to have it by buying the Xbox version.

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Heh. Your assumptions about me are so off the chart that I lold. :)

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I agree the weight should be a little different. I would honestly rather not get more than 3 of the same exotics because for that second that I see yellow i always expect something new. Nonetheless thats how MMOs have always worked. It was advertised as one. Part of the beast. Coming from some drops off on other games that are less than 1/100 its not that bad for me, but I see your frustration.

Not having a Hawkmoon or Ghorn doesnt keep you from beating the game or getting to a secret map/area.

Just think about it like this, If everyone had a Ghorn and Hawkmoon, it would just be another gun, and you probably would just be like oh cool. having something someone else doesnt have makes it exotic to me. Everyone having one makes it common. If you have ever played an MMO and grinded your heart out, then the game went free to play? Where a nine year old with rich parents can get the game and buy everything on day 1 and have everything you worked hard to get? It is really discouraging. I hate RNG only because I dont get what I want. But Once I do get a Hawkmoon or Ghorn, It will be nice to have something that everyone else wants, as conceited as that may sound.

Edit: Meant to say have a vendor that sells all exotics, but for extremely high amounts of whatever currency. This way at least you can see the light at the end of the tunnel, instead of stumbling around blind. But its still not soo easy everyone can get it.

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Edit: Meant to say have a vendor that sells all exotics, but for extremely high amounts of whatever currency. This way at least you can see the light at the end of the tunnel, instead of stumbling around blind. But its still not soo easy everyone can get it.

Before the game released, I kind of thought that's what Xur would be. He'd be stocked with any exotic, but they'd cost 300 strange coins each. But that's not the solution either!

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I'm a little confused -- whenever the subject of tweaking exotic weapons comes up, you talk about how exotics should truly be exotic - as in more unique, special, and rare. Which is it - more uniqueness and rarity, or everyone should have everything?

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When he says Exotics should be more unique he is talking about their abilities. Thunderlord is just a kickass HMG, Suros is just a kickass AR. Now, look at pre-nerf Pocket Infinity. THAT was exotic.

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When he says Exotics should be more unique he is talking about their abilities. Thunderlord is just a kickass HMG, Suros is just a kickass AR. Now, look at pre-nerf Pocket Infinity. THAT was exotic.

That is part of what he has meant when discussing the issue before -- but he has definitely also argued that they should be more exotic in their rarity as well. I don't have the time to search for Cody posts for direct quotes (and frankly it doesn't matter to me enough even if I did have the time), but I recall Cody lamenting that the way things are currently handled (everybody having an icebreaker, for example) means that these really aren't "exotic" weapons.

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When he says Exotics should be more unique he is talking about their abilities. Thunderlord is just a kickass HMG, Suros is just a kickass AR. Now, look at pre-nerf Pocket Infinity. THAT was exotic.

Right. If anything, Fatebringer and Black Hammer should be exotics- because stopping power aside, they have demonstrably unique perks that no other guns in those classes have.

Now imagine what an AR with explosive rounds would be like. Hnnnnnggg.

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Now imagine what an AR with explosive rounds would be like. Hnnnnnggg.

Something like this ;p

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[image]

Stability is pretty high... I think that's my crappy aim you're seeing lol

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That's a great roll. Mine has third eye, but not explosive rounds. Lil' Blue's has explosive rounds and firefly. I wouldn't care about fatebringer if I had that.

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That's a great roll. Mine has third eye, but not explosive rounds. Lil' Blue's has explosive rounds and firefly. I wouldn't care about fatebringer if I had that.

I just upgraded my ANitC with explosive rounds and Firefly... it's a BEAST. That, combined with B-Line's rate of fire... oooooooooooh BABY!

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I'm a little confused -- whenever the subject of tweaking exotic weapons comes up, you talk about how exotics should truly be exotic - as in more unique, special, and rare. Which is it - more uniqueness and rarity, or everyone should have everything?

Exotic IN FUNCTION. Not rarity. They would be unique because they function unlike any other weapon in the game. And everyone should have non RNG access to all of them, yes.

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Imagine you went and bought Halo, but there was a multiplayer map that only unlocked as a random reward when playing multiplayer. You'd be annoyed no? I bought the game, why cant I play on the map?

Imagine you went and bought the Last of Us, but could only make nail bombs after getting instructions off a random drop from an enemy. Wouldn't that suck? The game is set up so that they are important items, and useful to progress. So why would I be locked out?

Imagine you were playing Beyond Two Souls or Heavy Rain or something, and you could only take certain story branches leading to the 'best' ending if a random event occurred during the course of the story. Would you not be bummed or frustrated?

Imagine no RNG
It's easy if you try
Every item in your vault
Above you only sky.

Imagine all the people
With nothing left to do, yo-hoo

Imagine there's no planets
It isn't hard to do
No Spirit Bloom to gather
And no Light levels too

Imagine all the people
With nothing left to do, yo-hoo

You may say, I'm a dreamer
Playing games because they're fun
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no lust for items
I wonder if you can
No need to greed for Hawkmoon
With Fatebringer in your hand

Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world…

You may say, I'm a dreamer
Playing games because they're fun
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

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Imagine all the people
With nothing left to do, yo-hoo

Why do people keep saying this as if it's a bad thing?

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Imagine all the people
With nothing left to do, yo-hoo

Why do people keep saying this as if it's a bad thing?

But my statistically higher DLC sales... I neeeeeeds them....

BobbyKotick.jpg

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I can hardly believe that you even sat down and typed this.

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...and I don't have hawkmoon. Am I not supposed to be?

What would be nice is if there was a "vendor" that would go out and find you any exotic you want for an obscene price. That way you could fill in the missing holes late game when you have nothing else to spend currency on, but to do so to get your first exotic would be financially silly.

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Imagine you went and bought Halo, but there was a multiplayer map that only unlocked as a random reward when playing multiplayer. You'd be annoyed no? I bought the game, why cant I play on the map?

Imagine you went and bought the Last of Us, but could only make nail bombs after getting instructions off a random drop from an enemy. Wouldn't that suck? The game is set up so that they are important items, and useful to progress. So why would I be locked out?

Imagine you were playing Beyond Two Souls or Heavy Rain or something, and you could only take certain story branches leading to the 'best' ending if a random event occurred during the course of the story. Would you not be bummed or frustrated?

I'd find that interesting. It'd be a lot like life, actually.

What if you couldn't pick up the covenant carbine unless you were granted the ability from an extremely rare drop? Sucks?

I don't know if Hawkmoon is all that.

So why is it normal, and encouraged for Exotic weapons like Hawkmoon, which are fantastically useful and a part of the game, to be locked away behind RNG? I bought the game, why can't I play with all its elements? How is that any different than any of the above scenarios?

Is it that much more useful than other things? Really? I find your analogies to be not quite on point.

Don't tell me that's just how MMOs work, because MMO is an objectively, demonstrably bad genre. Why aren't we past this?

If everyone could have everything whenever they wanted it, it wouldn't be exciting to get anything. That excitement is part of the game design, for better or for worse. I can't help but wonder if you'd care that much about having Hawkmoon if a) it were easier to get or b) you had it.

It's fucking stupid, and I'm really bitter that I can't play with this gun until the fall simply because of random numbers.

Are we sure we can get it in the fall? Do we know that it will go on sale?

Aren't there some items other than the exclusives that haven't gone on sale?

My solution that would be minimally intrusive: if you roll an exotic, don't give out one that is already on the account (or weigh them much more heavily). Check, and give a new drop that the account doesn't have. I don't need 8 No Land Beyonds. Wow, so hard.

Okay. Maybe they could tweak the formula, but the result would be that exotics would be less exotic.

I don't relate to the angst. The game is still fun for you. You have a large number of "useful" weapons.

I don't have many truly good weapons on the PS4, yet I certainly don't have less fun on that platform. I don't have the Suros Regime at all, and I really want it just because I think it's the coolest looking gun in the game (and still a "useful" auto rifle), but if I never get it? Que sera sera. My panties remain unbunched.

Here's perspective: you have more stuff than most of the people who play the game will ever have. You're probably in a small percentile regarding Raid play. Not having this one gun out of all that content makes you feel ripped off. Odd.

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My solution that would be minimally intrusive: if you roll an exotic, don't give out one that is already on the account (or weigh them much more heavily). Check, and give a new drop that the account doesn't have. I don't need 8 No Land Beyonds. Wow, so hard.

Okay. Maybe they could tweak the formula, but the result would be that exotics would be less exotic.

A question, Kermit.

If Exotics are supposed to be all that rare, why does Xur sell the vast majority of them?

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My solution that would be minimally intrusive: if you roll an exotic, don't give out one that is already on the account (or weigh them much more heavily). Check, and give a new drop that the account doesn't have. I don't need 8 No Land Beyonds. Wow, so hard.

Okay. Maybe they could tweak the formula, but the result would be that exotics would be less exotic.

A question, Kermit.

If Exotics are supposed to be all that rare, why does Xur sell the vast majority of them?

That kind of speaks to my point. People care less about weapons that are routinely for sale. Having some weapons be truly rare is what makes getting such weapons exciting.

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My solution that would be minimally intrusive: if you roll an exotic, don't give out one that is already on the account (or weigh them much more heavily). Check, and give a new drop that the account doesn't have. I don't need 8 No Land Beyonds. Wow, so hard.

Okay. Maybe they could tweak the formula, but the result would be that exotics would be less exotic.

A question, Kermit.

If Exotics are supposed to be all that rare, why does Xur sell the vast majority of them?

That kind of speaks to my point. People care less about weapons that are routinely for sale. Having some weapons be truly rare is what makes getting such weapons exciting.

It also makes it equally frustrating.

If you had to embark on some epic quest to obtain these rare weapons- Say, Complete the Vault of Glass as part of a fireteam with no deaths- then I would 100% agree with you.

But that's not how we do it. Our only method of obtaining them- as of right now- is that upon completing some task, regardless of our performance, hope that a machine arbitrarily spits out a sequence of numbers that matches the one we want.

Cody thinks that's a poor design choice. and I agree with him.

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My solution that would be minimally intrusive: if you roll an exotic, don't give out one that is already on the account (or weigh them much more heavily). Check, and give a new drop that the account doesn't have. I don't need 8 No Land Beyonds. Wow, so hard.

Okay. Maybe they could tweak the formula, but the result would be that exotics would be less exotic.

A question, Kermit.

If Exotics are supposed to be all that rare, why does Xur sell the vast majority of them?

That kind of speaks to my point. People care less about weapons that are routinely for sale. Having some weapons be truly rare is what makes getting such weapons exciting.

It also makes it equally frustrating.

To some obviously. Not to me.

If you had to embark on some epic quest to obtain these rare weapons- Say, Complete the Vault of Glass as part of a fireteam with no deaths- then I would 100% agree with you.

Easy for you to say. There are already weapons I know I'll never get (if I'm holding the controller anyway). I'd rather keep that number very small.

But that's not how we do it. Our only method of obtaining them- as of right now- is that upon completing some task, regardless of our performance, hope that a machine arbitrarily spits out a sequence of numbers that matches the one we want.

Cody thinks that's a poor design choice. and I agree with him.

That's perfectly fine.

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I'd find that interesting. It'd be a lot like life, actually.

I hear this said a lot in various gaming debates, and I'm absolutely baffled as to why we should accept things simply because they're more like real life. Life isn't fair, true - but why does it necessarily follow that games shouldn't be?

I'm not saying that every game should be a regimented balance-fest. Randomness can be fun. Randomness in encounter setups, enemy behavior, world events, and so on. Hooray for chaos! It's just that every time I see "it's more realistic" trotted out as a defense of unbalanced mechanics, I have to ask WHY that is ok as a justification.

Are we sure we can get it in the fall? Do we know that it will go on sale?

No, of course not. I'm pretty sure Cody just meant that fall is the earliest it feasibly COULD go on sale, not that it necessarily WILL. Which is... sort of worse actually.

Aren't there some items other than the exclusives that haven't gone on sale?

Well, yeah probably. I don't see how that's relevant, though, since any of those COULD go on sale at any time. Hawkmoon won't, at least until the exclusivity period is up.

Okay. Maybe they could tweak the formula, but the result would be that exotics would be less exotic.

In rarity, not in function.

I don't relate to the angst. The game is still fun for you. You have a large number of "useful" weapons.

I don't have many truly good weapons on the PS4, yet I certainly don't have less fun on that platform. I don't have the Suros Regime at all, and I really want it just because I think it's the coolest looking gun in the game (and still a "useful" auto rifle), but if I never get it? Que sera sera. My panties remain unbunched.

Here's perspective: you have more stuff than most of the people who play the game will ever have. You're probably in a small percentile regarding Raid play. Not having this one gun out of all that content makes you feel ripped off. Odd.

All absolutely true, and yet I don't see any of it as proving that the current RNG system isn't lame. It's great that your panties are still on straight, and good for you. But the question here is, would we be having more fun if we could just use whatever weapon we wanted? I'm not sure the answer is no.

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I'd find that interesting. It'd be a lot like life, actually.

I hear this said a lot in various gaming debates, and I'm absolutely baffled as to why we should accept things simply because they're more like real life. Life isn't fair, true - but why does it necessarily follow that games shouldn't be?

I tend to agree when it comes to mechanics, but his example I suspect I'd find intriguing in part because I've never played a game that really had a random element that dramatically affected the story.

I'm not saying that every game should be a regimented balance-fest. Randomness can be fun. Randomness in encounter setups, enemy behavior, world events, and so on. Hooray for chaos! It's just that every time I see "it's more realistic" trotted out as a defense of unbalanced mechanics, I have to ask WHY that is ok as a justification.

Are we sure we can get it in the fall? Do we know that it will go on sale?

No, of course not. I'm pretty sure Cody just meant that fall is the earliest it feasibly COULD go on sale, not that it necessarily WILL. Which is... sort of worse actually.

Well, I kind of like that there are some weapons that are truly rare.

Aren't there some items other than the exclusives that haven't gone on sale?

Well, yeah probably. I don't see how that's relevant, though, since any of those COULD go on sale at any time. Hawkmoon won't, at least until the exclusivity period is up.

My larger point was about the effect of them going on sale frequently. We don't value them as much.

Okay. Maybe they could tweak the formula, but the result would be that exotics would be less exotic.

In rarity, not in function.

Yes, that's what I meant.

I don't relate to the angst. The game is still fun for you. You have a large number of "useful" weapons.

I don't have many truly good weapons on the PS4, yet I certainly don't have less fun on that platform. I don't have the Suros Regime at all, and I really want it just because I think it's the coolest looking gun in the game (and still a "useful" auto rifle), but if I never get it? Que sera sera. My panties remain unbunched.

Here's perspective: you have more stuff than most of the people who play the game will ever have. You're probably in a small percentile regarding Raid play. Not having this one gun out of all that content makes you feel ripped off. Odd.

All absolutely true, and yet I don't see any of it as proving that the current RNG system isn't lame. It's great that your panties are still on straight, and good for you. But the question here is, would we be having more fun if we could just use whatever weapon we wanted? I'm not sure the answer is no.

And I guess where I differ is that I'm not sure the answer is yes.

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Xur will sell the Hawkmoon Week 1 (all praise RNG Xur) after XBox users have the chance to play the playstation exclusive maps and have access to the playstation exclusive weapons.

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1. Have Xur Sell weapon Engrams
2. Weighted Exotic Drops as I already described
3. Allow players to gift drops they receive to others in their fireteam

Do it now.

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Imagine you went and bought Halo, but there was a multiplayer map that only unlocked as a random reward when playing multiplayer. You'd be annoyed no? I bought the game, why cant I play on the map?

A map is not a gun. Not even close.

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Imagine you went and bought Halo, but there was a multiplayer map that only unlocked as a random reward when playing multiplayer. You'd be annoyed no? I bought the game, why cant I play on the map?

A map is not a gun. Not even close.

Did you read further down when I asked you to imagine having to unlock the Carbine?

Why is it okay to withhold one aspect of your game (a weapon) with RNG, but not another (map)?

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Imagine you went and bought Halo, but there was a multiplayer map that only unlocked as a random reward when playing multiplayer. You'd be annoyed no? I bought the game, why cant I play on the map?

A map is not a gun. Not even close.

Did you read further down when I asked you to imagine having to unlock the Carbine?

Why is it okay to withhold one aspect of your game (a weapon) with RNG, but not another (map)?

Because there are hundreds of guns, dozens of which which fit the same role. A Carbine was one of a small group that filled a specific role.

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Because there are hundreds of guns, dozens of which which fit the same role. A Carbine was one of a small group that filled a specific role.

And which gun does what Hawkmoon does? I can think of Zero hand cannons that offer a one shot kill, and instant 2 shot kills frequently.

You do have a point, and honestly Destiny has WAY too many guns. It needs ONE exotic per weapon type, and one legendary per archetype. Honestly, what's the difference between Red Hand IX and Venation III? Only the perks you roll on them practically speaking.

This of course makes re-obtaining new legendaries after each expansion kind of silly, since they're basically the same as the old ones.

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It needs ONE exotic per weapon type, and one legendary per archetype.

Yes, because Bad Juju and Red Death are completely redundant.

And so are SUROS Regime and Hard Light.

And there's no point in having Thorn and The Last Word in the same game, right?

I get what you mean about the amounts of Legendaries per archetype, but one Exotic per Weapon type? At all, period?

That'd be stupid.

If you ask me, there should be (roughly) an Exotic for every archetype, and I think there should be multiple Legendaries per archetype, widening up some variation within one archetype. Which, you know, is how it is, at least for Legendaries.

The guns being diverse is to appeal better to various playstyles; if you don't think it's really accomplishing that, fine, but your "fix" is taking it further away from that. Because you want the weapon system to be the same kind of thing as Halo, where there's just a grand total of two guns in any given category.

The larger and more varied categories are one of the things that is very appealing about Destiny, to me. I don't see why anyone would want rid of them.

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Imagine you went and bought Halo, but there was a multiplayer map that only unlocked as a random reward when playing multiplayer. You'd be annoyed no? I bought the game, why cant I play on the map?

A map is not a gun. Not even close.

Did you read further down when I asked you to imagine having to unlock the Carbine?

No, I stop when I hit a false assumption.

Why is it okay to withhold one aspect of your game (a weapon) with RNG, but not another (map)?

Because they are not equivalent. Guns do not divide the playerbase. I can play with people who do not have the same guns as me. In fact, I'd say it enhances the game. I can think of nothing less interesting than everyone having the exact same gear, except maybe fantasy meritocracy where only the very best players get the very best gear. It looks to me like Destiny might even be doing something Bungie probably can't admit to-- which is a tiny bit of handicapping. Or else it's just that everyone who dominates in a game and has the bile rise in their throats because the worst player gets a sweet drop makes sure to post a screencap, so I see them more often than they actually happen.

However, if maps were locked (and actually some of them are, as DLC) then you can only play games on those maps with others who have those maps. The DLC paywall is probably enough of a division.

Actually, come to think of it, several areas in Dark Below ARE withheld based on game progress, so again, your assumption is just wrong.

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I can think of nothing less interesting than everyone having the exact same gear

Who says that having no RNG loot would mean every player would use the same stuff? That's the false assumption right there.

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I can think of nothing less interesting than everyone having the exact same gear

Who says that having no RNG loot would mean every player would use the same stuff? That's the false assumption right there.

I think once a series of simple, predictable and repeatable actions is linked to receiving a particular bit of loot, drops of that piece of loot will proliferate. Gjallahorn is thought of as being valuable not only because it is good, but because it is relatively rare compared to other similar weapons that are almost as good. Its inevitable proliferation would lead to complaints (like the one you yourself have made!) to the effect that content is not challenging when you have such an overpowered weapon.

Myself, I think the Destiny universe is more interesting where some things are rare, but not every mission is impossible.

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Seriously, how many No Land Beyonds have you sharded? You got them because you did not want them.

The only way to get what you desire is to convince yourself in your deepest heart of hearts that you don't want it. Then pray to RNGsus and ask him to give it to someone less fortunate than you (maybe that noob who cost you your last crucible game). Only then will RGNsus be moved to bestow upon you that for which you currently lust...

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The only way to get what you desire is to convince yourself in your deepest heart of hearts that you don't want it. Then pray to RNGsus and ask him to give it to someone less fortunate than you (maybe that noob who cost you your last crucible game). Only then will RGNsus be moved to bestow upon you that for which you currently lust...

He speaks the truth. I mean look at Beorn.

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- No text -

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Well, then it happened

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- No text -

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Yep. That's what I had to do with Red Death. Then the very next Friday Xur sold it to me. :)

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Look at Beard, wanting Suros so badly but never getting it. I think he broke down and moved on a couple weeks ago with a Vanquisher mistress. Then on his special day, Xur shows up and sells it. Does this mean that because I have never lusted after the hawkmoon the servers will fry and give me one, across platforms, and it will shoot rainbows and make unicorn noises? #Stillwouldshard

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My suggestion is to stop playing. I did that back in September and never looked back! No RNG angst, no material farming, no running nightfall 800 times hoping to god what I want drops!

Life is much better for it I assure you.

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Put it in perspective (Destiny)

TL;DR cody mad he don't have hawkmoon lolol

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Control the zones, Guardians!

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