https://twitter.com/DestinLegarie/status/591658464839127040

10:1 the overhaul is them adding new game modes.
5:1 Felwinter's Lie is getting nerfed.
2:1 it's them messing up the crucible with more shitty changes to ammo and stuff.

Place your bets!

https://twitter.com/DestinLegarie/status/591658464839127040

10:1 the overhaul is them adding new game modes.
5:1 Felwinter's Lie is getting nerfed.
2:1 it's them messing up the crucible with more shitty changes to ammo and stuff.

Place your bets!

Never, ever expect a developer to understand the balance of their own mutliplayer. Looking at you, Valve.

https://twitter.com/DestinLegarie/status/591658464839127040

10:1 the overhaul is them adding new game modes.
5:1 Felwinter's Lie is getting nerfed.
2:1 it's them messing up the crucible with more shitty changes to ammo and stuff.

Place your bets!

Never, ever expect a developer to understand the balance of their own mutliplayer. Looking at you, Valve.

I love how pessimistic Cody is no. matter. what.

However, I will drop in my 2 cents and say that Crucible is being ruined by timers. I had enough of an issue getting used to the Heavy timer, and I appreciate the added visibility the recent changes have brought, but this business about starving for green ammo and having players divert from the action to go wait around a crate that drops in 12 seconds, only to be picked off...well.

Crucible is just an entirely different game when the focus is placed on ammo drops.

~m

Agree, im having to completely adjust the way i play to compensate for the now ever present ammo campers. Before, i only had heavy campers occasionally now they're in every game and even more annoying.

I really really REALLY wish they would remove those timers.

As for nerfing Felwinters Lie, yes its badass and wrecks havoc and can shut you down in a game, but seriously, people just need to stop complaining. Im tired of all the nerfs.

CC

I hold off using Nova Bomb when that timer hits 30 seconds and then just go to town when it hits 01 or the icon disappears. I don't even feel like picking my own Heavy anymore. Not as fun.

Crucible 1.0, IMO was much better, though I do like the better notifications now.

In the first crucible, you didn't HAVE to be by the heavy ammo, because once you killed a guy, you got some heavy ammo.
You didn't need to crowd around the box and be slaughtered.
You could use your machine gun since you didn't worry about losing your heavy ammo capabilities immediately.
If you kill a guy with heavy ammo, you got a reward for doing it, not just relief from not dying.

If you kill a guy with heavy ammo, you got a reward for doing it, not just relief from not dying.

Now, I have definitely improved a lot since my first match, but still every single kill of mine in the Crucible is a relief I didn't die.

In the first crucible, you didn't HAVE to be by the heavy ammo, because once you killed a guy, you got some heavy ammo.
You didn't need to crowd around the box and be slaughtered.
You could use your machine gun since you didn't worry about losing your heavy ammo capabilities immediately.
If you kill a guy with heavy ammo, you got a reward for doing it, not just relief from not dying.

Their solutions to non problems simply created more problems and a much less dynamic game. One of the reasons I loved Destiny's PvP so much was because it was so dramatically different than what I was used to.

I love how pessimistic Cody is no. matter. what.

It's easy to be pessimistic when Bungie is ruining PvP. They appear to be vastly improving PvE, but PvP just gets worse and worse.

Their solutions to non problems simply created more problems and a much less dynamic game. One of the reasons I loved Destiny's PvP so much was because it was so dramatically different than what I was used to.

Just because they're non problems to you doesn't mean they weren't problems. If you pay attention to the Destiny Community at large there was a lot of complaint about the overabundance of using Special Weapons as Primary Weapons. Regardless of how a handful of people feel on this forum they obviously looked at that feedback, looked at the statistics and agreed that there was too much Special ammo all around. And guess what? A lot of people (even on this forum) LIKE the changes.

I personally prefer not being killed the vast majority of times with a special weapon like it was before the update, now there is a balance in what people use.

Just because they're non problems to you doesn't mean they weren't problems. If you pay attention to the Destiny Community at large there was a lot of complaint about the overabundance of using Special Weapons as Primary Weapons. Regardless of how a handful of people feel on this forum they obviously looked at that feedback, looked at the statistics and agreed that there was too much Special ammo all around. And guess what? A lot of people (even on this forum) LIKE the changes.

I don't see that as the case. It wasn't that there was too much special ammo, it was that weapons like shotguns are effective at ranges they shouldn't be, and thus are more useful than intended. Special weapons should rock in special situations. The solution is not to decrease the amount of special ammo; the solution is to get rid of shot package and nerf shotgun range on a per gun basis in PvP. So what if people use specials often? That's what made the game better than Halo!

I personally prefer not being killed the vast majority of times with a special weapon like it was before the update, now there is a balance in what people use.

Which comes at the expense of making the game far more boring. If you want a balanced game, go toss a coin for a half hour.

I personally prefer not being killed the vast majority of times with a special weapon like it was before the update, now there is a balance in what people use.

Which comes at the expense of making the game far more boring. If you want a balanced game, go toss a coin for a half hour.

The incongruity of this statement with what I said is mind boggling.

I personally prefer not being killed the vast majority of times with a special weapon like it was before the update, now there is a balance in what people use.

Which comes at the expense of making the game far more boring. If you want a balanced game, go toss a coin for a half hour.

The incongruity of this statement with what I said is mind boggling.

Well, a coin toss is a perfectly balanced game. 50/50. Equal chance. But it sucks. That's because real games HAVE imbalance, and the fun is trying to exploit that imbalance while preventing your opponent from exploiting it himself.

I personally prefer not being killed the vast majority of times with a special weapon like it was before the update, now there is a balance in what people use.

Which comes at the expense of making the game far more boring. If you want a balanced game, go toss a coin for a half hour.

The incongruity of this statement with what I said is mind boggling.

Well, a coin toss is a perfectly balanced game. 50/50. Equal chance. But it sucks. That's because real games HAVE imbalance, and the fun is trying to exploit that imbalance while preventing your opponent from exploiting it himself.

Completely missing my point. The GAME is not any more balanced, I never said it was. I said the weapons people choose to use is more balanced. Those are not the same thing. The fact that there is more balance in weapon choice actually makes the imbalance more apparent. Turning a corner expecting to get shotgunned in the face because there's a lot of ammo is less surprising then when there is little ammo. The diversity actually causes moments of being able to surprise your opponent MORE.

Well, a coin toss is a perfectly balanced game. 50/50. Equal chance. But it sucks. That's because real games HAVE imbalance, and the fun is trying to exploit that imbalance while preventing your opponent from exploiting it himself.

Imbalance or the lack thereof isn't why coin flips are boring. It's because there's no substance.

Imagine a game like chess, except both players go at once, by writing down their move privately, and then they're resolved simultaneously, a la Diplomacy. Have it so that if two pieces land in the same place in the same turn, they're both lost.

This game would be perfectly balanced, AND a real game.

But this is a tangent, all because you're saying things that are wrong but aren't actually critical to your point again.

...Now I want to play this game.

Completely missing my point. The GAME is not any more balanced, I never said it was. I said the weapons people choose to use is more balanced. Those are not the same thing. The fact that there is more balance in weapon choice actually makes the imbalance more apparent. Turning a corner expecting to get shotgunned in the face because there's a lot of ammo is less surprising then when there is little ammo. The diversity actually causes moments of being able to surprise your opponent MORE.

You must not play crucible very much if you ever expect not to get shotgunned around a corner or close up. People still roll with shotguns much much more than the other specials. The changes did nothing to address what you just said, and to think that will happen is pure fantasy in my opinion.

You must not play crucible very much if you ever expect not to get shotgunned around a corner of close up. The changes did nothing to address what you just said, and to think that will happen is pure fantasy in my opinion.

I play several times a week, have a K/D of 1.4 and a win % over 50%. The comment about shotguns was to explain my point about diversity, but I appreciate the attempt to discredit my argument by suggesting I am inexperienced at Crucible instead of addressing any ACTUAL point made.

You must not play crucible very much if you ever expect not to get shotgunned around a corner of close up. The changes did nothing to address what you just said, and to think that will happen is pure fantasy in my opinion.

I play several times a week, have a K/D of 1.4 and a win % over 50%. The comment about shotguns was to explain my point about diversity, but I appreciate the attempt to discredit my argument by suggesting I am inexperienced at Crucible instead of addressing any ACTUAL point made.

Your point was that somehow reducing special ammo would lead to more diversity. It doesn't. Shotguns are as prevalent as they have always been. Why would having less ammo suddenly make you pick a fusion rifle over a shotgun if you love shotguns? If you want diversity, the correct thing to do is to NERF SHOTGUNS so they don't completely dominate the special metagame. They have too much range. Get rid of shot package, and adjust range values per gun in PvP only.

Limiting ammo: does nothing to affect balance.
Nerfing shotguns: does tons

If you care about balance is weapon usage, you should be supportive of my fixes, not Bungie's.

I'd gladly code the base of that game if anyone helps me with the visual/UI part.

Your point was that somehow reducing special ammo would lead to more diversity. It doesn't. Shotguns are as prevalent as they have always been. Why would having less ammo suddenly make you pick a fusion rifle over a shotgun if you love shotguns? If you want diversity, the correct thing to do is to NERF SHOTGUNS so they don't completely dominate the special metagame.

Limiting ammo: does nothing to affect balance.
Nerfing shotguns: does tons

If you care about balance is weapon usage, you should be supportive of my fixes, not Bungie's.

I completely disagree with everything you just said, and I bet the numbers of deaths to special weapons would back me up. I have no way of getting that though so we are at a stalemate.

If there is less ammo and ammo is scarce then Shotguns will be... used exactly as often as before? You know, it wouldn't hurt you to be intellectually honest every once in a while, Cody.

If there is less ammo and ammo is scarce then Shotguns will be... used exactly as often as before? You know, it wouldn't hurt you to be intellectually honest every once in a while, Cody.

They are used just as often in the special slot yes. Why would less ammo suddenly make someone use a sniper instead? Gee, there's less special ammo, that means I should use a sniper instead of my shotgun! It doesn't happen and makes zero sense.

Your point was that somehow reducing special ammo would lead to more diversity. It doesn't. Shotguns are as prevalent as they have always been. Why would having less ammo suddenly make you pick a fusion rifle over a shotgun if you love shotguns? If you want diversity, the correct thing to do is to NERF SHOTGUNS so they don't completely dominate the special metagame.

Limiting ammo: does nothing to affect balance.
Nerfing shotguns: does tons

If you care about balance is weapon usage, you should be supportive of my fixes, not Bungie's.

I completely disagree with everything you just said, and I bet the numbers of deaths to special weapons would back me up. I have no way of getting that though so we are at a stalemate.

Dude, of course they would. THERE'S LESS SPECIAL AMMO. How could that not affect special weapon kills? But the ratios - shotgun vs sniper vs fusion rifle would remain exactly the same.

Dude, of course they would. THERE'S LESS SPECIAL AMMO. How could that not affect special weapon kills? But the ratios - shotgun vs sniper vs fusion rifle would remain exactly the same.

Since when was my argument EVER about ratio of special ammo? My argument has ALWAYS BEEN less kills from SPECIAL WEAPONS. Aren't you always complaining to people about reading comprehension?

The update changes were to address special weapons all together not specifically shotguns, if it was specifically about shotguns they would have nerfed shotguns in Crucible.

Dude, of course they would. THERE'S LESS SPECIAL AMMO. How could that not affect special weapon kills? But the ratios - shotgun vs sniper vs fusion rifle would remain exactly the same.

Since when was my argument EVER about ratio of special ammo? My argument has ALWAYS BEEN less kills from SPECIAL WEAPONS. Aren't you always complaining to people about reading comprehension?

Maybe I can make it clear:

You want MORE PRIMARY WEAPON KILLS and FEWER SPECIAL WEAPON KILLS. If you wanted to achieve that Bungie needed NOT to limit special weapon ammo, but to instead reduce the effectiveness of the most effective special, i.e. the shotgun.

If you do exactly as I said, and make shotguns for very close range only, then they would lose more often to primaries and be used in fewer situations. Additionally, I wouldn't ruin the game. Because all of their changes so far have been doing that.

The last thing Destiny should be doing is turning back into Halo with its idea of limited power weapons.

If you do exactly as I said, and make shotguns for very close range only, then they would lose more often to primaries and be used in fewer situations. Additionally, I wouldn't ruin the game. Because all of their changes so far have been doing that.

And this is where we're back to a stalemate (and I really am done this time). I completely disagree it ruined the game and know that there are people that agree with me, and I know there are people that agree with you, so we're now to pure opinion.

They are used just as often in the special slot yes. Why would less ammo suddenly make someone use a sniper instead? Gee, there's less special ammo, that means I should use a sniper instead of my shotgun! It doesn't happen and makes zero sense.

I'm unsure if you are being deliberately dense or not. Xenos said:

If you pay attention to the Destiny Community at large there was a lot of complaint about the overabundance of using Special Weapons as Primary Weapons

and:

I personally prefer not being killed the vast majority of times with a special weapon like it was before the update, now there is a balance in what people use.

His point wasn't about shotguns, it was about the overuse of Special Weapons in general. Being shotguned was merely one example he chose to illustrate his point. I'm sure his point is the same for Sniper Rifles and Fusion Rifles.

Putting that aside, your argument is still flawed. Let's say you're right and Shotguns are equipped as often as before. Those Shotguns will still have far less Special Ammo to work with. Even Invective doesn't generate ammo fast enough to make up for the overall decrease in Special Ammo. The result which, Xenos and I appreciate, is a decrease in the amount of times we get killed by Shotguns... and other Special Weapons.

Putting that aside, your argument is still flawed. Let's say you're right and Shotguns are equipped as often as before. Those Shotguns will still have far less Special Ammo to work with. Even Invective doesn't generate ammo fast enough to make up for the overall decrease in Special Ammo. The result which, Xenos and I appreciate, is a decrease in the amount of times we get killed by Shotguns... and other Special Weapons.

Pre Patch, I was overwhelmingly killed by Primaries. If you were sick of getting killed by specials, you should play differently so you are not killed by specials. It's not the game's fault, and it shouldn't have to be changed because people refuse to adapt or get better.

It is not hard to put distance between you and your enemy. Sometimes they get in close and shred you, but you gotta stay more mobile.

Maybe I can make it clear:

You want MORE PRIMARY WEAPON KILLS and FEWER SPECIAL WEAPON KILLS. If you wanted to achieve that Bungie needed NOT to limit special weapon ammo, but to instead reduce the effectiveness of the most effective special, i.e. the shotgun.

If you do exactly as I said, and make shotguns for very close range only, then they would lose more often to primaries and be used in fewer situations. Additionally, I wouldn't ruin the game. Because all of their changes so far have been doing that.

The last thing Destiny should be doing is turning back into Halo with its idea of limited power weapons.

Again, your logic is flawed. Yes, further nerfing Special Weapons will decrease the number of Special Weapon kills. But would you kindly explain how reducing the amount of Special Weapon ammo does not also work towards the same end result. Especially since just one or two posts ago you said:

THERE'S LESS SPECIAL AMMO. How could that not affect special weapon kills?

It is not hard to put distance between you and your enemy. Sometimes they get in close and shred you, but you gotta stay more mobile.

If I do put distance between my enemy and I, they snipe my face off. And guess what else is a Special besides the "close"-range shotgun?

Again, your logic is flawed. Yes, further nerfing Special Weapons will decrease the number of Special Weapon kills. But would you kindly explain how reducing the amount of Special Weapon ammo does not also work towards the same end result.

It works towards the same result, but it has other detrimental effects making my solution superior. In my opinion of course. I am also not advocating nefing special weapons. Just one: the shogun. Singular. Snipers and fusion rifles are good as is.

It works towards the same result, but it has other detrimental effects making my solution superior. In my opinion of course. I am also not advocating nefing special weapons. Just one: the shogun. Singular. Snipers and fusion rifles are good as is.

EVERYONE in this thread knows this is what you're advocating. It seems you are missing the point where they not only tell you that but that they also feel like THE OTHERS SHOULD be nerfed as well, thus disagreeing with you on a far more fundamental level than you appear to be understanding.

I think the lessening of secondary ammo is a good change. I do run out sometimes now and I think about the encounters more.

I think 2:1 is a bit generous.

Again, your logic is flawed. Yes, further nerfing Special Weapons will decrease the number of Special Weapon kills. But would you kindly explain how reducing the amount of Special Weapon ammo does not also work towards the same end result.

It works towards the same result, but it has other detrimental effects making my solution superior. In my opinion of course.

Both potential solutions have potential detrimental effects. Nerfing weapons or entire weapon types has the risk of causing the player population largely abandoning those specific weapons or weapon types. See: Auto Rifles. Your idea also kinda presupposes that Special Weapons themselves are too powerful, even on a shot to shot basis which I largely disagree with. I believe there are certain weapons that are outliers in that they are too powerful. Felwinter's Lie is a good example. But I don't think Shotguns as a whole are too powerful.

Instead I believe that most Shotguns and Sniper Rifles, and to a far lesser extent Fusion Rifles, are well balanced as long as ammo isn't so plentiful that they can be used as Primary Weapons. The big distinction, for me at least, is that Special Weapons should be reserved for special situations. Instead, before the latest change, they were very often being used in every situation. Reducing the available ammo for Special Weapons keeps those weapons as viable and balanced as they were before but will help push their usage into "Special" role they were meant for.

At the same time, yes, reducing Special Ammo on the map has some drawbacks. It can be frustrating to run out of ammo and not be able to find more. It is especially hard to switch Special Weapon types (from Shotgun to Sniper, etc) since there is a much larger chance that you won't be able to find any ammo for your new weapon. And, if there is far too little Special Ammo to go around, something which I am not convinced is the case, that "Special role" that Special Weapons are meant for will not be fulfilled because not enough people will be able to use their Special Weapons even when it is appropriate to use them.

This isn't a one way is wrong, one way is right situation. But answer this: In general, and ignoring the obvious outliers like Felwinter's Lie, do you think Shotguns, Sniper Rifles, and Fusion Rifles were too powerful? If so then perhaps your solution is the better answer. As I said above, I think all the Special Weapons were fairly well balanced, just that they were used outside of their "special role" which is why I think the solution Bungie choose to go with was the more correct one.

Putting that aside, your argument is still flawed. Let's say you're right and Shotguns are equipped as often as before. Those Shotguns will still have far less Special Ammo to work with. Even Invective doesn't generate ammo fast enough to make up for the overall decrease in Special Ammo. The result which, Xenos and I appreciate, is a decrease in the amount of times we get killed by Shotguns... and other Special Weapons.

Pre Patch, I was overwhelmingly killed by Primaries. If you were sick of getting killed by specials, you should play differently so you are not killed by specials. It's not the game's fault, and it shouldn't have to be changed because people refuse to adapt or get better.

It is not hard to put distance between you and your enemy. Sometimes they get in close and shred you, but you gotta stay more mobile.

You suggestions are good ones. My response would be that I already try and do largely keep my enemies at distances I'm comfortable with. And yet I still feel that the game is improved when there are less snipers locking down areas and less Blink-shotgunners largely erasing that distance advantage and less "unfair" across the room Fellwinter's Lie kills. It's a subjective opinion, admittedly. But I also think you would be very hard pressed to prove that I'm a low skill player or that I play badly.

AKA: You and me, one on one, map of your choice, right now! :p

If I had my way shotguns would be have realistic ranges (e.g. 40 yards). Good thing Im not in charge because that would be so unfair balance wise ;)

If I had my way shotguns would be have realistic ranges (e.g. 40 yards). Good thing Im not in charge because that would be so unfair balance wise ;)

If I had MY way, all shotguns would be replaced with Gravity Hammers. :D

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I love how pessimistic Cody is no. matter. what.

It's easy to be pessimistic when Bungie is ruining PvP. They appear to be vastly improving PvE, but PvP just gets worse and worse.

Annnd... THERE's the hyperbole I love so much!

Cody... you make me tired. I wish you would CONSIDER how your words are heard by the people you talk to. Just CONSIDER it. Maybe every once in a while.

Both potential solutions have potential detrimental effects. Nerfing weapons or entire weapon types has the risk of causing the player population largely abandoning those specific weapons or weapon types. See: Auto Rifles. Your idea also kinda presupposes that Special Weapons themselves are too powerful, even on a shot to shot basis which I largely disagree with. I believe there are certain weapons that are outliers in that they are too powerful. Felwinter's Lie is a good example. But I don't think Shotguns as a whole are too powerful.

This is why my solution, as I have stated, relies on adjusting shotguns on a per gun basis and not a blanket nerf.

AKA: You and me, one on one, map of your choice, right now! :p

Accepted once we get custom games.

It doesn't seem like you love it at all!

So.. Your whole argument about people feeling special weapons are too prominent in PvP is, get gud?

Can you not see how contradictory this is when your entire point against PvP is nerf shotguns?

Maybe you're sick of too many shotguns in PvP and you should just play better, without the daily attack on bungie with a game you feel is so unbalanced for PvP that you cannot put it down.