Avatar

More things Destiny should learn from Warframe (Destiny)

by Kahzgul, Friday, May 01, 2015, 23:18 (3254 days ago)

This is from the twitter account of a Warframe developer. He's specifically talking about the map / level select screen.

https://twitter.com/sj_sinclair/status/593889843094155265

Here's the text with my Destiny-relevant analysis:

- Every UI element I see is relevant to me, I don't see a mess of choices and noise. Destiny actually handles this quite well. It's very slick. Warframe, on the other hand, can get overwhelming, what with the 19 planets (or moons) and 12-16 zones/missions per planet.
- The game is presenting a clear goal for me everyday Does the daily story mission count in Destiny? Not to me, as I stopped doing those eons ago. Yeah Destiny, you could really give us more clear goals. Why are we doing... anything? Speaking of:
- I see a call to action, something that tells me why I am fighting. There is literally zero reason given in Destiny for why we're fighting. It's wholly unclear why we're killing everything that moves, if they are the real enemy or not, and why we have no meaningful interactions with anyone else. In Warframe, you get a message such as "A plague infestation is breaking out on Phobos. Please help us exterminate the infested and we'll pay you in credits!"
- I can continue to work toward something I want. I guess by earning vanguard or crucible marks? You sure as hell can't "work towards" a Gjallerhorn, and there's no progress bar for getting a Vex Mythoclast. In Warframe, you need materials, you know what materials drop on which worlds before you go there, and you almost always get a handful of the ones you need every time you complete a mission.
I can see possible rewards and challenges before I commit to a battle, so I can prepare. Sort of. Destiny tells you what skulls are active, but the rewards are intentionally made to be RNG-based gambling addict rolls. LAME. In Warframe, you are told in the game what specific rewards will drop during a mission. You may get even more stuff at random (well, from each enemy's loot table, which you can find out by scanning them) during the mission, but you always get the mission reward at the end.
Even when I'm seeking a single reward, I still face a variety of locations and enemies. Not in Destiny. It's grind the raid over and over and over or run the same Nightfall 3 times a week, and then run the Weekly Heroic mission 3 more times, which happens to be the same goddamn level as the Nightfall. And since loot drops are basically random, there's no sense of progress, either. Contrastingly, Warframe has drops by world, and running any of the 12-16 missions in that world will drop the materials from that world. Certain missions give specific drops at the end (such as boss kills), but at least 1 drop is guaranteed every time you run those missions.
It feels like the world is alive, that a story is happening from an ecosystem. Oh Destiny, where the reward for completing the story is a single mote of light and nothing ever changes in the actual gameplay over time. I guess blades of crota showed up, but that's it. And now we've killed Crota thousands of times... why haven't these blades figured out their boss is dead? In Warframe, every update shifts the game world. The most recent one added special rare enemies all over the place and an AI construct who wants to scan them all into his genetic database. It also added some new guns and a new suit of armor (which is basically a new class). And the infested outbreaks seem to be getting worse.
Finding people to play with is as easy as joining a mission, there are no ghost towns. HAHAHAHAHA. Destiny LFG? HAHAHAHAHA. Seriously in Warframe you just pick a mission (any mission) and it starts matching you. That includes raids.
I make choices and they matter to me, and cast a vote into the world's ecosystem. Nothing you do in Destiny will change the game world ever. Sorry. In Warframe, there are combat missions where two factions that are opposed will have competing options in a single zone. You choose which faction to fight for when you choose that mission. Whichever faction gets its mission completed, say 10,000 times first, has a lasting a permanent effect on the game. That choice mission goes away and is replaced by something appropriate, and the people who supported the winning faction are rewarded. In the past, the players have opted for the greedier option and ended up making missions much harder for themselves by letting one faction gain dominance in an area.

So yeah, Bungie, please get some mission statements along the same lines as the Warframe folks. They've got it nailed now when it comes to a living, persistent game world.

Avatar

Things warframe could learn from Destiny

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, May 01, 2015, 23:48 (3254 days ago) @ Kahzgul

1. Don't look like ass
2. Have great character animation
3. Have great game feel. Make things feel like they have weight
4. Make firing guns satisfying
5. Have great sound design

Avatar

Things warframe learned from Destiny...

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Saturday, May 02, 2015, 00:29 (3254 days ago) @ Cody Miller
edited by Korny, Saturday, May 02, 2015, 00:39

1. Don't look like ass

With the latest update, they've completely rebuilt Excalibur and a number of their weapons from the ground up with an advanced texture and PBR system... They are working to completely upgrade the game's visuals piece by piece, and thanks to enhancements, particle effects have been brought into the game with no performance issues.

They have also talked about planet tile sets getting changes.

2. Have great character animation

Movement animations will be part of a massive overhaul soon, called "Parkour 2.0". It's been in the works for a while. Other than that, there is a radial wheel of special animations that was introduced some updates ago (wave, "dance", meditate, boast, nod, shake, etc.). Either way, the game has way more animations than Destiny:

Your sprint can fluidly turn into a slide (while firing weapons), then a vaulting flip that can seamlessly turn into a wallrun (also while shooting), which can break into another flip that catches you on a ledge, allowing you to vault over and ready your weapon... Meanwhile in Destiny *guardian sliding down a wall because he didn't quite reach a ledge*

3. Have great game feel. Make things feel like they have weight.

They've made great strides from the beginning, and continue to improve upon this. Some upcoming tweaks and changes have already been shown off, but for a game that has a dozen different CATEGORIES of weapons, I'd say they've done a great job...

4. Make firing guns satisfying

Gun sounds are also being tweaked and overhauled, as a weapon's sound actually affects gameplay (weapons go from Very Loud to Silent, and mods can affect this). New classes of weapons get introduced regularly (Dead Space's Ripper recently got a variant here, as did the Spartan Laser).

5. Have great sound design

All sounds are easily identifiable and help distinguish different scenarios. Superior to Destiny's sound design in every way. Music is also memorable. Various sliders and options allow you to tweak game sounds to your liking.


Sounds like one developer knows how to take and respond to feedback...
Checkmate.

Avatar

Things warframe learned from Destiny...

by Funkmon @, Saturday, May 02, 2015, 01:06 (3253 days ago) @ Korny

Superior to Destiny's sound design in every way.

I just stopped taking you seriously.

Avatar

Things warframe learned from Destiny...

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Saturday, May 02, 2015, 04:27 (3253 days ago) @ Funkmon

Superior to Destiny's sound design in every way.


I just stopped taking you seriously.

Yeah me too. Having everything make a 'distinct' sound doesn't mean the sound design is good.

Avatar

Things warframe learned from Destiny...

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Saturday, May 02, 2015, 10:58 (3253 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Yeah me too. Having everything make a 'distinct' sound doesn't mean the sound design is good.

"Gameplay is king... But I won't acknowledge any of a game's positive aspects of I don't think it's pretty or sounds just the way I like it." -Cody Miller

Avatar

Things warframe learned from Destiny...

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Saturday, May 02, 2015, 13:21 (3253 days ago) @ Korny

Yeah me too. Having everything make a 'distinct' sound doesn't mean the sound design is good.


"Gameplay is king... But I won't acknowledge any of a game's positive aspects of I don't think it's pretty or sounds just the way I like it." -Cody Miller

You cannot really separate 'gameplay' from the aesthetics of a game. They compliment, and in some sense are kind of the same thing.

Avatar

Things warframe learned from Destiny...

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Saturday, May 02, 2015, 13:40 (3253 days ago) @ Cody Miller
edited by Korny, Saturday, May 02, 2015, 13:47

Yeah me too. Having everything make a 'distinct' sound doesn't mean the sound design is good.


"Gameplay is king... But I won't acknowledge any of a game's positive aspects of I don't think it's pretty or sounds just the way I like it." -Cody Miller


You cannot really separate 'gameplay' from the aesthetics of a game. They compliment, and in some sense are kind of the same thing.


... Only one thing seems appropriate:

So in your mind, if you were to play Half-Life 2 on Mute, it would automagically be a 0/10... Well, okay then.

Avatar

Things warframe learned from Destiny...

by Kahzgul, Saturday, May 02, 2015, 15:29 (3253 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Yeah me too. Having everything make a 'distinct' sound doesn't mean the sound design is good.


"Gameplay is king... But I won't acknowledge any of a game's positive aspects of I don't think it's pretty or sounds just the way I like it." -Cody Miller


You cannot really separate 'gameplay' from the aesthetics of a game. They compliment, and in some sense are kind of the same thing.

This statement doesn't make sense at all. You're saying you'd rather play a visually and auditorily stunning round of Stab Yourself to Death than a not-quite-as-well-rendered round of Travel Around the World with the Woman of your Dreams?

I guess I'd rather just play a great game that looks good than a so-so game that looks great. For instance, I think Final Fantasy 7 is a better game than Destiny. Golden Eye is a better game. Diablo 2 is a better game. And, frankly, I'm having a hell of a lot more fun playing Warframe. But hey, if you think Sewer Shark was an awesome game because it was so pretty, I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

Avatar

Things warframe learned from Destiny...

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Saturday, May 02, 2015, 15:43 (3253 days ago) @ Kahzgul
edited by Cody Miller, Saturday, May 02, 2015, 15:46

This statement doesn't make sense at all. You're saying you'd rather play a visually and auditorily stunning round of Stab Yourself to Death than a not-quite-as-well-rendered round of Travel Around the World with the Woman of your Dreams?

Think of it this way:

As the game world becomes more detailed and more pleasing, then the mechanics of it have to catch up. If you have a gorgeous looking and sounding gun, but it behaves in a ridiculous way you wouldn't expect, immersion is lost. If you have a detailed world, but everything is anchored to the ground with no physics, then immersion is lost.

Your 'gameplay' has to progress if the aesthetics progress, otherwise the disconnect will take you out of the experience. Case and point: Bioshock Infinite.

You can alternatively have your mechanics be too complex for your aesthetics. To grow one, you need to grow the other. They are both part of the same thing: the simulation of the game world that you want to be in.

Avatar

Things warframe learned from Destiny...

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Saturday, May 02, 2015, 16:40 (3253 days ago) @ Cody Miller

You made a beautiful point about how aesthetically-pleasing games need good mechanics, but then just stated an absolute for the inverse, blundering terribly.

By now, we all know how it goes, don't we? Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

Avatar

Things warframe learned from Destiny...

by RaichuKFM @, Northeastern Ohio, Saturday, May 02, 2015, 16:46 (3253 days ago) @ ZackDark

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

ZackDark confirmed for Sith.

Avatar

;)

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Saturday, May 02, 2015, 19:23 (3253 days ago) @ RaichuKFM

I'm pretty sure I snorted loudly at that, despite being thoroughly enthralled in the movie up to that point.

Avatar

Things warframe learned from Destiny...

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Saturday, May 02, 2015, 17:05 (3253 days ago) @ ZackDark

You made a beautiful point about how aesthetically-pleasing games need good mechanics, but then just stated an absolute for the inverse, blundering terribly.

Can you really not think of an example on your own and have to be spoon fed?

Racing game. You've programmed it to be realistic, calculating tire friction, weight shifting, and the like. But if you are on the Sega genesis, and you only have 8 sprites for your car, you can't even represent all the subtleties of your game physics! You'd need to upgrade to a 3D renderer where the car can lean, have individual tire rotation, and skid for that to even work.

Avatar

Things warframe learned from Destiny...

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Saturday, May 02, 2015, 19:22 (3253 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Can you really not think of an example on your own and have to be spoon fed?

Why did you think it necessary to spoon-feed me on the first aspect, then? All I'm calling for is consistency. (Not really, I just want to point out how I completely disagree with your second aspect without just saying "I disagree".)

Racing game. You've programmed it to be realistic, calculating tire friction, weight shifting, and the like. But if you are on the Sega genesis, and you only have 8 sprites for your car, you can't even represent all the subtleties of your game physics! You'd need to upgrade to a 3D renderer where the car can lean, have individual tire rotation, and skid for that to even work.

Nope, because when you do go for graphical realism, you usually have to compromise some aspects of the physics, or else no system can handle it. I, for one, would rather have grip realistically calculated in real time than for the sun to realistically gleam on the drops of rain on my hood (gorgeous, but wtf).

Also, you're coming from the point of view that immersion is everything. I respect that, but I disagree that it is an absolute thing to achieve. I play Just Dance, for instance, not being one single bit immersed in it on purpose and I still have fun, which, as far as I know, is the ultimate goal in playing a game just for kicks.

Avatar

Things warframe learned from Destiny...

by Kahzgul, Sunday, May 03, 2015, 14:02 (3252 days ago) @ Cody Miller

You made a beautiful point about how aesthetically-pleasing games need good mechanics, but then just stated an absolute for the inverse, blundering terribly.


Can you really not think of an example on your own and have to be spoon fed?

Racing game. You've programmed it to be realistic, calculating tire friction, weight shifting, and the like. But if you are on the Sega genesis, and you only have 8 sprites for your car, you can't even represent all the subtleties of your game physics! You'd need to upgrade to a 3D renderer where the car can lean, have individual tire rotation, and skid for that to even work.

You're letting the tail wag the dog in your argument here. Journey is a beautiful game and it sucked ballsack. There's no gameplay. It's just "walk around and do nothing." Frankly, Destiny is only slightly different, in that it's "Walk around a shoot everything" but there's almost no variation. The player's tactics don't need to adjust to what's on the field, the environment you're in doesn't matter, and there are no goals other than to kill everything. There's not even plot justification for the action, nor do the missions change on replay.

It's quite possible to have incredible art and crap gameplay, just as it's possible to have incredible gameplay with crap art.

I favor gameplay over art 100% of the time. You don't have to, but I do.

And, frankly, Warframe is a very good looking game. You talk about it as if it's some kind of 8-bit pixel game, but it's fully rendered, next-gen, and quite pretty. It has a slight stylistic bent that can make it seem a tad cartoony at times, but if you buy into that artistic theme, it's great. There have definitely been moments where I just stopped for a second to take in the vistas.

For me, it feels like this:
Art: Destiny: 10/10. Warframe: 8/10.
Gameplay: Destiny: 3/10. Warframe: 8/10.

Avatar

Things warframe learned from Destiny...

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Sunday, May 03, 2015, 14:50 (3252 days ago) @ Kahzgul

You're letting the tail wag the dog in your argument here. Journey is a beautiful game and it sucked ballsack. There's no gameplay. It's just "walk around and do nothing." Frankly, Destiny is only slightly different, in that it's "Walk around a shoot everything" but there's almost no variation. The player's tactics don't need to adjust to what's on the field, the environment you're in doesn't matter, and there are no goals other than to kill everything. There's not even plot justification for the action, nor do the missions change on replay.

Yes, but Journey would have sucked even more if the art were worse, because the game is about exploration. Exploring a pretty world is much much better than exploring an ugly one.

It's quite possible to have incredible art and crap gameplay, just as it's possible to have incredible gameplay with crap art.

You say that as if I would disagree? I don't. However, this division between art and 'gameplay' is not cut and dry. Take my example with Journey. Make the game more ugly, and it becomes less fun, all without touching the mechanics.

Avatar

Things warframe learned from Destiny...

by Kahzgul, Sunday, May 03, 2015, 19:36 (3252 days ago) @ Cody Miller

You're letting the tail wag the dog in your argument here. Journey is a beautiful game and it sucked ballsack. There's no gameplay. It's just "walk around and do nothing." Frankly, Destiny is only slightly different, in that it's "Walk around a shoot everything" but there's almost no variation. The player's tactics don't need to adjust to what's on the field, the environment you're in doesn't matter, and there are no goals other than to kill everything. There's not even plot justification for the action, nor do the missions change on replay.


Yes, but Journey would have sucked even more if the art were worse, because the game is about exploration. Exploring a pretty world is much much better than exploring an ugly one.

True.

It's quite possible to have incredible art and crap gameplay, just as it's possible to have incredible gameplay with crap art.


You say that as if I would disagree? I don't. However, this division between art and 'gameplay' is not cut and dry. Take my example with Journey. Make the game more ugly, and it becomes less fun, all without touching the mechanics.

Okay, point taken, but you seem to be arguing that a pretty game with poor gameplay is inherently better than an ugly game with great gameplay, and - moreso, that Destiny, a pretty game with very repetitive gameplay, is inherently better than Warframe, a good looking game with good gameplay that is full of variety.

Avatar

Things warframe learned from Destiny...

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Sunday, May 03, 2015, 19:47 (3252 days ago) @ Kahzgul

Okay, point taken, but you seem to be arguing that a pretty game with poor gameplay is inherently better than an ugly game with great gameplay

I don't think he is, to be honest.

and - moreso, that Destiny, a pretty game with very repetitive gameplay, is inherently better than Warframe, a good looking game with good gameplay that is full of variety.

That he is. But I have to point out that Warframe has something not quite fulfilling as Destiny. It's something about the gameplay itself, though, not variety.

Avatar

I just simply don't agree with your "Gameplay" ratings

by kidtsunami @, Atlanta, GA, Sunday, May 03, 2015, 22:44 (3252 days ago) @ Kahzgul

- No text -

Avatar

Yeah, no kidding. 3/10 is complete crap.

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Sunday, May 03, 2015, 22:55 (3252 days ago) @ kidtsunami

- No text -

Avatar

Just my opinion. I explain/rant below. Mostly rant. :(

by Kahzgul, Monday, May 04, 2015, 06:31 (3251 days ago) @ Ragashingo

- No text -

Avatar

3/10?

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Sunday, May 03, 2015, 23:34 (3252 days ago) @ Kahzgul

Seriously? I'd say you're in a tiny minority even among the harshest critics of Destiny.

Avatar

My initial rating would have been higher but...

by Kahzgul, Monday, May 04, 2015, 06:29 (3251 days ago) @ Kermit

Keep in mind that I'm not rating Destiny, as a whole, 3/10. I'm only rating the gameplay of destiny 3/10. The sound and art are fantastic in the game, and the community building and ease of fireteam entry are also pretty good (raid entry is another story). I think, overall, the ratings of 6/10 and 7/10 that Destiny got on launch were spot on. But grading gameplay all by itself, in a vacuum, I stand by my 3/10 score.

At this point, for me, there is literally nothing fun about Destiny. I tried to do Iron Banner this time around (I've gone to rank 5 in all previous iron banners) and I couldn't even bear to hit rank 3. The game handles beautifully but I'm beyond bored of it. And I feel like it's designed to bore me to death. If you want the loot, you kind of have to play the same level a bajillion times. And you're not playing it for fun or for the challenge (even though you could); you're playing it for the loot. The loot system really is the worst, and it's ruined the game for me.

/rantmode ON

On top of that, the AI is crap. I expected a lot more from a Bungie FPS.

On top of that, the level design is crap. Now, Bungie has shown me that they're perfectly happy making me play through the same level backwards before - they did it in Halo 1. But never before in back-to-back missions, certainly not missions 1 and 2 of the game!

On top of that, the plot is crap. There's incredible lore on a website I can read while I'm not playing the game, but there's zilch in the game, and there's even less of a plot. Speaker: I could tell you the stories of the play, but I won't. Stranger: I don't have time to explain why I don't have time to have a plot. Rasputin: I've got music, but no plot. Come ON.

On top of that (because holy god it just keeps getting more repetitive and boring), the PvP is all Kill-modes, and there's only a very small number of different modes available, and some of those modes aren't even available every week. This game "has more players than any Bungie game in history" and also has fewer game modes. And crappier MP maps. Hang 'Em High was the most fun MP map I've ever played in any game, ever, and Destiny has not a single map that I'm even remotely excited about. Halo also had custom game modes and the ability to make private games. How far we have fallen.

Then there's the vehicles that are all one-seaters and pretty universally deathtraps if you get into them. Anyone else miss the warthog? Or the scorpion? Or stuffing a grenade down the backside of that sweet alien mortar-tank? I miss every halo vehicle except the little dirt-buggy quad thing. Sorry, quad, you're not my cup of tea.

And the netcode that makes the most frustrating deaths commonplace.

I seriously can keep going for a very long time here. Having to go to orbit between every mission. Having to change characters to swap items around OR use an app that's more functional than the game itself(!) to do it. Having the vault be at the tower instead of on your ship. The limited inventory that's locked into each type of item. Having shaders take up inventory space at all. Making factions basically all function in identical ways. All spaceships are modularly designed from the same parts and you can't actually control or steer them in any way. The goddamn giant graphic hole in The Birth of History that's been there since Iron Banner #1 that Bungie has still not fixed. Bungie spending it's time making the purple ball glow instead of fixing Crota teleport-uppercutting your invisible sword guy. Defend the door simulator 9000 as the only event that ever happens in missions. Go somewhere or Kill things as the only patrol mission types. Needing a third party website to tell me when world events will happen (toss up - it may be worse that game has made world events so important that the website exists at all). Needing a third party website to form raids if my buddies aren't all online. Heroic boss fights being made harder just by having bigger numbers instead of smarter AI or additional/different behavior. The balance changes for PvP that keep making it less and less fun. The complete lack of impact that the player's actions have on the world. The incredibly small size of the worlds we can visit. I'm sure there's more, but I'm really tired.

/rantmode OFF

Granted, the first time that I ran VoG was really cool. The first time I ran CE was awesome!

/rantmode ON

But then, just to be high enough level to run the hardmodes to get the guns (that I still never got), I had to run those raids over and over and over again. I didn't get level 32 until the end of February despite running CE every week since it came out. The items just wouldn't drop. I didn't get Gjallerhorn until the end of March (and then I got 2... typical Destiny RNG). To date, from all my VoG runs ever, I have gotten 1 Praedith's Revenge, 2 of the rocket launchers, and that's IT for weapons. I never even got a full suit of VoG armor for my hunter. CE has been nicer to me, but I'm still missing the Heavy Machinegun, Rocket Launcher, Pulse Rifle, and Hand Cannon from the raid. And both exotic raid weapons.

/rantmode OFF

So I give the game 3/10 for gameplay because the only thing about playing the game that I like at this point is the character control and movement. Everything else about how the game plays is either frustrating, boring, overplayed, or non existent. I figure that how you move through the game world is a fair 1/3 of a game's design and Bungie knocked that element of gameplay out of the park. The world you move through is another 1/3, and the way the systems interact is the last 1/3, and I absolutely hate both of those components of the gameplay.

Destiny plays like it's the game Bungie made before they made Halo. So many things they got right years ago are wrong now. It hurts me as a fan and as a consumer. I want it to be better. I hope it will be better. But until then, I've found a game that feels better to me, and that's where I'll be spending my time.

My initial rating would have been higher but...

by scarab @, Monday, May 04, 2015, 08:37 (3251 days ago) @ Kahzgul

I pretty much agree with all you said which is why I stopped playing in December but this part intrigued me because I've seen a few people say it but I'm not sure what they mean.

On top of that, the AI is crap. I expected a lot more from a Bungie FPS.

What is crap about it?

I don't think I had any complaints about it when I was playing.

I have criticised Bungie's AI in the past because it seemed to stay fairly static after the initial great start in the first game.

But my complaints were directed at how poor the AI was when applied to allies, it was fine for enemies. And the AI undermined Bungie's story telling ambitions. For example: our Spartan allies in Reach were unconvincing as people and were horribly inept. It seemed that the only change implemented for Reach was that Spartans moved slowly whilst under fire because it looked kool (or something). I got that one from a developer comment and you can see it towards the end when Emile is with you and he tries to shotgun enemies from a distance and he walks, slowly, around like a pink human pin-cushion, grunting as he takes needler fire.

But none of that matters for enemies.

What is it about Destiny enemy AI that bothers you. Are other games any better? What could Bungie improve and how?

Avatar

My initial rating would have been higher but...

by Kahzgul, Monday, May 04, 2015, 14:40 (3251 days ago) @ scarab

What is it about Destiny enemy AI that bothers you. Are other games any better? What could Bungie improve and how?

I feel like the enemy AI is more of a scripted "run to location X and stay there while doing your pre-scripted behavior" than actual AI, looking at the player, the environment, and figuring out where cover is, coordinating when to press the attack vs. when to hide, calling for help, etc..

I'll use the Omnigul strike as an example. Every single time you run the strike, the encounters are identical. There's always snipers on those three crates. The shanks always spawn in the same places and move right towards you. Get past that point and the wizards always bob and weave behind the big column. The thrall around the corner always sits there until you shoot him or walk past him, etc etc. There's nothing dynamic at all about the AI, and none of it is pro-active. It's all reactive.

Dregs (and Acolytes, which appear to have identical AI) hide behind cover and periodically lean out and shoot you.
Captains stand right in the middle until you shoot them and then they immediately blink to a side.
Wizards bob and weave back and forth, back and forth. They hide if you pop their shields, then go back to bobbin' and weavin'.
Thralls have the "best" AI and that's simply because it makes the most sense. They charge you unless you pop a super and then they back up to hide a bit. Everything about the AI in the game is 100% predictable. That's what makes it bad.

In Halo, the grunts ran right at you, but if you killed one of them sometimes the others would panic and run. The big guys would find cover to shoot from, but if there were 2 or more, one would move to flank you while the other laid down suppressing fire. Grenades would come at you "out of nowhere" because the enemy was smart enough to throw them over barriers at where you were, rather than having to have line of sight on you before throwing as in Destiny. The enemies would hop in vehicles and attack you (instead of only spawning in vehicles and then just leaving empty ones on the ground and ignoring them as in Destiny).

Halo also used the different enemy types to much greater advantage, putting tough melee guys in the front during an encounter and then also having snipers trying to take you out at the same time. In destiny, you're usually put in situations where you're able to clear the snipers before any other enemies are even close enough to distract you. Maybe they get you the first time, but once you know where they are, they're always going to be there and you can take them out with ease.

Basically Halo AI felt much more dynamic, a bit more like bots rather than scripted, mindless targets. Destiny feels like, instead of good AI, they just game "tough" enemies more health and damage to make up for predictable and exploitable behavior.

Halo 2 and 3 also got even more verbs for the AI to perform, from kicking you out of the vehicle you're driving to trying to run you over rather than just shoot. Sure, your allies were awful, but the point is that you're the best soldier in the realm, not that you get to sit back while your dudes kill everyone.

TL;DR awful ally AI makes you feel powerful. Awful enemy AI makes the encounters boring. A game whose main "hook" is replaying missions for chances at loot should have more replay value in its AI.

Avatar

My initial rating would have been higher but...

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, May 04, 2015, 11:49 (3251 days ago) @ Kahzgul

Keep in mind that I'm not rating Destiny, as a whole, 3/10. I'm only rating the gameplay of destiny 3/10.

I know.

Avatar

I disagree. Almost completely.

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Monday, May 04, 2015, 14:59 (3251 days ago) @ Kahzgul

- No text -

Avatar

I'm glad you're having fun.

by Kahzgul, Monday, May 04, 2015, 15:16 (3251 days ago) @ Ragashingo

Destiny has clearly become an exercise in frustration for me.

Avatar

Things warframe could learn from Destiny

by Kahzgul, Saturday, May 02, 2015, 06:52 (3253 days ago) @ Cody Miller

1. Don't look like ass
2. Have great character animation
3. Have great game feel. Make things feel like they have weight
4. Make firing guns satisfying
5. Have great sound design

I feel like all of these are fair assessments of the state of Warframe right now, but they are also all things Warframe's development team is not only aware of, does not only plan on fixing, but is actively and incrementally updating with each patch (they come out monthly-ish). Your comment also completely ignores the *brilliant* game mechanics of the reward system, the melee system, the item upgrade and mod systems, the crafting systems, the in-game clans, factions, space combat, character progression, and all of the things that Warframe got right which Destiny, frankly, whiffed on.

The analogies I like are:

Destiny is like having a stripped-down Ferrari in a giant, totally empty parking lot that you can never escape from. It's beautiful to look at, handles like a dream, but doesn't have air conditioning and you can't drive it anywhere.
Warframe is like being able to drive anywhere on Earth, but you can only drive a Yugo. Any model of Yugo. But yeah, Yugos.

OR

Destiny is like a beautiful candy shell surrounding actual poop with a delicious chewy center. It's the actual poop part that bothers me. The rest is great!
Warframe is like a pack of Belly Flops (these are the rejected Jelly Belly jelly beans that you can only buy at their factory)... It has literally everything, but it's not that pretty to look at. Or hear, I guess. Since these are now talking jelly beans. Though, really, the voice acting in Warframe is a million times better than the voice acting in Peter Dinklebot. Which is sad, since Warframe employees are the ones who do all of the voices - they're none of them actors.

--

Anyway, in another year, Warframe will be greatly evolved from its current state (which is already super fun) and Destiny will probably have another raid maybe that you can run like 100 times to not get the loot you want from. Or maybe not. HoW makes it seem that maybe raids are done for Destiny. So it could just be that in another year Destiny's guns will have bigger numbers on them, but otherwise be the same guns you have today.

Avatar

The difference between Warframe and Yugos

by Chewbaccawakka @, The Great Green Pacific Northwest!, Saturday, May 02, 2015, 16:26 (3253 days ago) @ Kahzgul

I actually like how Yugos look...

;D


But seriously, I kinda do. In the same way that I'm fond of Gremlins and Eurobusses and Range Rovers. Odd, sometimes angular, nostalgia.

Avatar

The difference between Warframe and Yugos

by Kahzgul, Sunday, May 03, 2015, 14:03 (3252 days ago) @ Chewbaccawakka

I actually like how Yugos look...

;D


But seriously, I kinda do. In the same way that I'm fond of Gremlins and Eurobusses and Range Rovers. Odd, sometimes angular, nostalgia.

I don't see the difference: I like how Warframe looks, too ;)

Avatar

Cars are not games

by Durandal, Monday, May 04, 2015, 12:18 (3251 days ago) @ Kahzgul

Warframe's graphics and such didn't move me, but I can accept a different asthetic. I absolutely hate the ship voice, but I probably could deal with it.

The main turnoff is that there are all theses fantastic classes and you can't play any of them without paying. You can only die three times without paying. You missed out on all this gear from events that happened before you played the game.

Neverwinter is the same way. There is a huge gear/time hurdle to get into the game. Time I've already invested into Destiny. Is Warframe that much better that I should shuck it all and switch?

Right now the answer is no. In the future it might change. But the same points people make about Warframe improving over time also applies to Destiny, if at a lower frequency due to the slower update cycle on the big time games.

Warframe is F2P, so it has a whole different model that requires those constant updates to work. Destiny is the other way around, they get money up front and have a long term investment strategy.

Avatar

Cars are not games

by Kahzgul, Monday, May 04, 2015, 14:53 (3251 days ago) @ Durandal

Warframe's graphics and such didn't move me, but I can accept a different asthetic. I absolutely hate the ship voice, but I probably could deal with it.

Fair points, but you almost never talk to the ship. I'm not sure if you can turn his chatter off, but you may be able to do that. There's lots of unexpected options.


The main turnoff is that there are all theses fantastic classes and you can't play any of them without paying.

False. You buy the blueprint for the final product from the market. Find the blue prints for the components in the game world. Farm the materials for those components. Assemble the whole thing, and bam, you've got your fantastic class. It takes a while (I'm about to finish building my first one), but it also takes a while to level a class to 30, which you'll always want to do in order to maximize your mastery rank.

You can only die three times without paying.

False. You can self-ressurrect 4 times per day per warframe without paying. I've only run out of self-res once. You can die an infinite number of times, but once out of self-res you either need an ally to revive you or you can no longer contribute to the mission (and, once everyone dies, the mission fails).

You missed out on all this gear from events that happened before you played the game.

My understanding is that there are basically only 6 items that can no longer be acquired in some way and none of them are must-haves. And these aren't available in the game at all - regardless of how much real money you want to spend.


Neverwinter is the same way. There is a huge gear/time hurdle to get into the game. Time I've already invested into Destiny. Is Warframe that much better that I should shuck it all and switch?

Right now the answer is no. In the future it might change. But the same points people make about Warframe improving over time also applies to Destiny, if at a lower frequency due to the slower update cycle on the big time games.

Warframe is F2P, so it has a whole different model that requires those constant updates to work. Destiny is the other way around, they get money up front and have a long term investment strategy.

The only thing you have to pay for is cosmetic options above and beyond the initial (but still versatile) color palette, or if you want your warframe to have a tail or wings or something. And, really, you don't have to pay money for these things because there are people who will trade you the "real money" currency in the game for certain rare items you've acquired and/or leveled up on your own.

For example, I have yet to pay any actual money to the game (though I will, because I feel like they've earned my cash at this point), and I'm about to build the Nyx warframe, I just completed my Latron scout rifle (which will be my 3rd primary weapon), and I've got several swords (and one giant axe) in reserve. I'm also nearly done building my Odonata warframe (the Archwing for space combat!).

Sure, it takes longer to buy a blueprint and then search out the materials for an item than it does to spend $ and buy the item outright, but it's great to say "I want item X. That means I need materials A, B, and C, which I can get from any mission on planets P, Q, R, or S. Time to start playing missions on those worlds!" But I'm having a ton of fun just unlocking more worlds and farming up the mats I need to build new stuff. Farming isn't really the right word, because it's not like I'm playing the same mission over and over. It's almost always new missions for me. It will take a really, really long time before I've totally unlocked everything and will have to replay something.

Avatar

More things Destiny should learn from Warframe

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Monday, May 04, 2015, 12:35 (3251 days ago) @ Kahzgul

I just finished reading this entire thread and my overall vibe I'm getting from it is that your faith in Destiny is lost and you have found a better game to play instead. I get that. What I don't get is how you title the thread like you are trying to improve Destiny, but what it sounds like to me is you are looking to convert people to Warframe.

I understand that you love the game you play. But I'm getting some serious Warframe elitest vibes. This is how I feel. Personally, I think if you really care about how badly Bungie is doing with Destiny, you should really be telling all of this to them.

Personally, I think Bungie knows what is wrong with their game. And when I say "what is wrong" I mean what is actually broken. I feel like a lot of people are complaining about Destiny because it's not what they expected/wanted. Bungie made they game they wanted to make. They are still evolving the game that way. They have hit some bumps along the way.

Also, Bungie does ground braking games. I love them for it. But I have to say, Destiny was a huge bite in ground braking games. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't really think of a decent MMO game that also has PvP (at least good).

And no one mentions the fact that Destiny is YOUNG. I would love for Destiny to be compared to Warframe at the age Destiny is at now. Or compare Destiny that is two years older to a current Warframe.

I love Destiny for what it is. I know that it still needs time to mature and stabilize. But frankly, all MMO's do.

Avatar

+1

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, May 04, 2015, 13:10 (3251 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

- No text -

Avatar

More things Destiny should learn from Warframe

by Kahzgul, Monday, May 04, 2015, 15:14 (3251 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

I just finished reading this entire thread and my overall vibe I'm getting from it is that your faith in Destiny is lost and you have found a better game to play instead. I get that. What I don't get is how you title the thread like you are trying to improve Destiny, but what it sounds like to me is you are looking to convert people to Warframe.

I understand that you love the game you play. But I'm getting some serious Warframe elitest vibes. This is how I feel. Personally, I think if you really care about how badly Bungie is doing with Destiny, you should really be telling all of this to them.

I'm sorry it comes off as elitist. I'm trying to share that there's a game out there that is shockingly similar to destiny in premise and which delivers what I believe is a dramatically better gameplay experience. I want people to check it out so that they can join in asking Bungie to improve Destiny. I want Bungie to check it out so that they can steal the elements that work so well.


Personally, I think Bungie knows what is wrong with their game. And when I say "what is wrong" I mean what is actually broken. I feel like a lot of people are complaining about Destiny because it's not what they expected/wanted. Bungie made they game they wanted to make. They are still evolving the game that way. They have hit some bumps along the way.

The fault for Destiny being not what I expected lies squarely at the feet of the marketing people who broke promises left and right in the hype-up to the game's launch. From advertisements with "game footage" that isn't actually part of the game to statements during interviews of "if you see a mountain in the distance, you can go there" to "every item will tell a story" the game has failed to deliver on these things. "Build your legend" is an absurd tagline for a game where the legend of running Vault of Glass 20+ times and still not having a Fatebringer or Mytoclast is not a good legend. It's more of a cautionary tale, I'd say.


Also, Bungie does ground braking games. I love them for it. But I have to say, Destiny was a huge bite in ground braking games. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't really think of a decent MMO game that also has PvP (at least good).

Destiny is ground breaking in a lot of ways. Technically it's very well executed. Fireteam joining, mission chaining, the way patrol mode works... it's all great. The PvP used to be fun for me, true, but has grown stale with limited game modes, TTKs that boil down to who has the better connection to the server, and weird weird netcode lag deaths and kills. Also, you're comparing Destiny's PvP to MMOs when I feel like it should be compared to FPSes. CoD and Titanfall are both investment game FPSes and they blow Destiny's PvP out of the water in both play, netcode, and available game modes. I'm not personally a fan of Battlefield, but I know many people who would claim that smokes Destiny as well.


And no one mentions the fact that Destiny is YOUNG. I would love for Destiny to be compared to Warframe at the age Destiny is at now. Or compare Destiny that is two years older to a current Warframe.

I didn't play warframe until about a month ago, so I can't speak to that. I do know that it's only a year older than Destiny though, not two. Also, they've never charged for an expansion - so all of the updates and changes are free to all. Destiny has actually taken away content from people who didn't buy the xpacs because they don't always have access to the Nightfall missions (when it's the Omnigul mission, for example) or the daily mission or whatnot when they're CE-related. It gave them more vendor items, true, so it may be a wash in the end - but that still seems pretty crappy to me.


I love Destiny for what it is. I know that it still needs time to mature and stabilize. But frankly, all MMO's do.

I enjoyed Destiny for a while, then I played more because I enjoyed my friends' company in the game. But I think I've always been salty because I feel like the press before launch lied to me, and I pre-ordered based on those lies. I've learned my lesson and will never pre-order another game again. I don't lay the blame for that squarely on Destiny, either. There have been several high-profile games in the last few years that failed to deliver on the pre-launch hype.

I'm glad you still have faith, but I think I'm burned on Destiny. For Destiny 2, I'll be taking a wait-and-see approach. I just hope they don't do something like give pre-orders a sweet gun that you will never be able to get if you wait to see how the game is before buying it.

Avatar

More things Destiny should learn from Warframe

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Monday, May 04, 2015, 15:40 (3251 days ago) @ Kahzgul

I just finished reading this entire thread and my overall vibe I'm getting from it is that your faith in Destiny is lost and you have found a better game to play instead. I get that. What I don't get is how you title the thread like you are trying to improve Destiny, but what it sounds like to me is you are looking to convert people to Warframe.

I understand that you love the game you play. But I'm getting some serious Warframe elitest vibes. This is how I feel. Personally, I think if you really care about how badly Bungie is doing with Destiny, you should really be telling all of this to them.


I'm sorry it comes off as elitist. I'm trying to share that there's a game out there that is shockingly similar to destiny in premise and which delivers what I believe is a dramatically better gameplay experience. I want people to check it out so that they can join in asking Bungie to improve Destiny. I want Bungie to check it out so that they can steal the elements that work so well.

I'm just glad you have a passion for it.


Personally, I think Bungie knows what is wrong with their game. And when I say "what is wrong" I mean what is actually broken. I feel like a lot of people are complaining about Destiny because it's not what they expected/wanted. Bungie made they game they wanted to make. They are still evolving the game that way. They have hit some bumps along the way.


The fault for Destiny being not what I expected lies squarely at the feet of the marketing people who broke promises left and right in the hype-up to the game's launch.

I hate marketing. But I also understand it's a necessary evil.

From advertisements with "game footage" that isn't actually part of the game to statements during interviews of "if you see a mountain in the distance, you can go there" to "every item will tell a story" the game has failed to deliver on these things. "Build your legend" is an absurd tagline for a game where the legend of running Vault of Glass 20+ times and still not having a Fatebringer or Mytoclast is not a good legend. It's more of a cautionary tale, I'd say.

Technically, every item does tell a story, it's just one sentence long :)


Also, Bungie does ground braking games. I love them for it. But I have to say, Destiny was a huge bite in ground braking games. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't really think of a decent MMO game that also has PvP (at least good).


Also, you're comparing Destiny's PvP to MMOs when I feel like it should be compared to FPSes. CoD and Titanfall are both investment game FPSes and they blow Destiny's PvP out of the water in both play, netcode, and available game modes. I'm not personally a fan of Battlefield, but I know many people who would claim that smokes Destiny as well.

I specifically mentioned this because Destiny is an MMO that has PvP. That is what makes it unique. It's hard to compare it to any other FPS PvP specifically because it is affected by it's PvE components. We have all experienced this in Destiny. That is why it's so amazing that it works so well. You just can't compare it against other games PvP to PvP it has to be across the board.


And no one mentions the fact that Destiny is YOUNG. I would love for Destiny to be compared to Warframe at the age Destiny is at now. Or compare Destiny that is two years older to a current Warframe.


I didn't play warframe until about a month ago, so I can't speak to that. I do know that it's only a year older than Destiny though, not two. Also, they've never charged for an expansion - so all of the updates and changes are free to all. Destiny has actually taken away content from people who didn't buy the xpacs because they don't always have access to the Nightfall missions (when it's the Omnigul mission, for example) or the daily mission or whatnot when they're CE-related. It gave them more vendor items, true, so it may be a wash in the end - but that still seems pretty crappy to me.


I love Destiny for what it is. I know that it still needs time to mature and stabilize. But frankly, all MMO's do.


I enjoyed Destiny for a while, then I played more because I enjoyed my friends' company in the game. But I think I've always been salty because I feel like the press before launch lied to me, and I pre-ordered based on those lies. I've learned my lesson and will never pre-order another game again. I don't lay the blame for that squarely on Destiny, either. There have been several high-profile games in the last few years that failed to deliver on the pre-launch hype.

I'm terrible with dates. All I know is that when I google the release date for both games, I get:
Destiny: September 9, 2014
Warframe: October 24, 2012

All I was saying is that that is a fair chunk of time to learn how to do this type of game better. To improve it. Warframe has a lot of experience under it's belt, Destiny doesn't.


I'm glad you still have faith, but I think I'm burned on Destiny.

Being burned on a game is the fault of both the game designer and the user. I am a little burned myself, but that doesn't mean that Destiny is a bad game.

For Destiny 2, I'll be taking a wait-and-see approach. I just hope they don't do something like give pre-orders a sweet gun that you will never be able to get if you wait to see how the game is before buying it.

I understand your reason to wait and see. I also really don't like the whole "buy this early and get this" or "Buy for this console and get this" but again, as I mentioned before, I hate marketing.

Avatar

More things Destiny should learn from Warframe

by Kahzgul, Monday, May 04, 2015, 16:19 (3251 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

I'm terrible with dates. All I know is that when I google the release date for both games, I get:
Destiny: September 9, 2014
Warframe: October 24, 2012

Oh man, you're right. PS4 Warframe came out later than PC, it seems. I just learned a thing! Warframe on PS4: November 15, 2013. So the game was more than a year old before it hit consoles. I didn't know that.


All I was saying is that that is a fair chunk of time to learn how to do this type of game better. To improve it. Warframe has a lot of experience under it's belt, Destiny doesn't.

But Bungie has a lot of experience with FPS games under their belt, and lots of things they got right in the Halo games they got wrong in Destiny (see my above rant post if you can stand it without your eyes bleeding or anything).


I'm glad you still have faith, but I think I'm burned on Destiny.


Being burned on a game is the fault of both the game designer and the user. I am a little burned myself, but that doesn't mean that Destiny is a bad game.

I don't think it's a bad game. I think it has bad gameplay. Overall I think it's a 7/10, but the game mechanics, specifically, are bad.

For Destiny 2, I'll be taking a wait-and-see approach. I just hope they don't do something like give pre-orders a sweet gun that you will never be able to get if you wait to see how the game is before buying it.


I understand your reason to wait and see. I also really don't like the whole "buy this early and get this" or "Buy for this console and get this" but again, as I mentioned before, I hate marketing.

We agree! (about marketing).

Avatar

More things Destiny should learn from Warframe

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Tuesday, May 05, 2015, 01:15 (3250 days ago) @ Kahzgul

I'm terrible with dates. All I know is that when I google the release date for both games, I get:
Destiny: September 9, 2014
Warframe: October 24, 2012


Oh man, you're right. PS4 Warframe came out later than PC, it seems. I just learned a thing! Warframe on PS4: November 15, 2013. So the game was more than a year old before it hit consoles. I didn't know that.

That date's a bit misleading. That's when the closed Alpha was first released. Warframe's "release" is muddy territory, since the PS4 release was still early Beta. Destiny had been in development longer, I think, given the hint dropped in ODST. Still, the comment regarding comparison of "age" can be interpreted fairly well during any stage of Warframe's release. I played it roughly around release, and at that point I saw potential, but was mostly disappointed in the game. Six months later (U12, I think), it was a completely different game, with major overhauls and additions. Destiny is sold as "content complete" and seven months down the road has less content than a free "Beta" had at that point.


All I was saying is that that is a fair chunk of time to learn how to do this type of game better. To improve it. Warframe has a lot of experience under it's belt, Destiny doesn't.


But Bungie has a lot of experience with FPS games under their belt, and lots of things they got right in the Halo games they got wrong in Destiny (see my above rant post if you can stand it without your eyes bleeding or anything).


I'm glad you still have faith, but I think I'm burned on Destiny.


Being burned on a game is the fault of both the game designer and the user. I am a little burned myself, but that doesn't mean that Destiny is a bad game.

I'm not burned out entirely, but Destiny has become extremely stale because objectively speaking, there isn't much to do. I enjoy it, but it's discouraging when Bungie stalls for over half a year before releasing pieces of what people could consider vital options and simple fixes (such as audio and colorblind settings). The reason people use Warframe as an example is because at any seven-month timeframe of its existence, it has made far greater strides than Destiny has. Heck, literally every single major update (We're on 16 now) has added far more content, tweaks, and fixes than Destiny has in its entire existence (no hyperbole, pick any update and look through the notes).
Bungie is a far bigger team with a far bigger budget, and the changes and content have been a pittance in comparison. And we're paying $20 per sad content package (that said, I do feel like I've gotten my money's worth of fun from TDB, but that fun well ran dry, whereas Warframe has challenges that I've yet to tackle, or that I've tried to tackle but simply couldn't overcome).


I don't think it's a bad game. I think it has bad gameplay. Overall I think it's a 7/10, but the game mechanics, specifically, are bad.

For Destiny 2, I'll be taking a wait-and-see approach. I just hope they don't do something like give pre-orders a sweet gun that you will never be able to get if you wait to see how the game is before buying it.

I still preorder games that I have faith in, and Destiny was a great foundation for the franchise. It's too bad it's basically JUST a foundation.


I understand your reason to wait and see. I also really don't like the whole "buy this early and get this" or "Buy for this console and get this" but again, as I mentioned before, I hate marketing.


We agree! (about marketing).

Yup.

...your faith in Destiny is lost...

by yakaman, Monday, May 04, 2015, 20:38 (3251 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

I think if anyone reaches this point it's time to disengage. I actually find myself nodding while reading Khazgul's posts. And Korny's. And some of Cody's. And yours.

Meaning, it's a subjective case. Because Destiny has a fabulous core (i.e. movement, shooting, art direction, music, sound) I'm always excited for what comes next.

And then I'm surprised by Bungie's under-delivery. I swear I don't mean that to be a super-negative; more, I typically can't believe they haven't done more with all the potential of what they've got.

What in the hell are they working on? It's as if 30-40% of their work goes into some direction I can't perceive.

But, I still have faith that better things will come. When that's gone, it's time to let it go.

Avatar

...your faith in Destiny is lost...

by stabbim @, Des Moines, IA, USA, Wednesday, May 06, 2015, 13:51 (3249 days ago) @ yakaman

It's as if 30-40% of their work goes into some direction I can't perceive.

That actually might be true. If the "comet" thing does exist, there must be some people working on it. Might even be the majority of the staff if it's as (comparatively) big as the rumors suggest. And who knows what else they might have people assigned to.

Avatar

So I tried Warframe, and here's the thing

by SonofMacPhisto @, Tuesday, May 05, 2015, 00:27 (3251 days ago) @ Kahzgul

It's like what if the Mako was a person, but didn't have a huge gun, and couldn't climb mountains.

Avatar

That's... that's not all like a Mako...

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Tuesday, May 05, 2015, 00:39 (3251 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto

- No text -

Avatar

Way to miss the point.

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Tuesday, May 05, 2015, 02:19 (3250 days ago) @ ZackDark

- No text -

Avatar

So I tried Warframe, and here's the thing

by Kahzgul, Tuesday, May 05, 2015, 15:10 (3250 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto

It's like what if the Mako was a person, but didn't have a huge gun, and couldn't climb mountains.

So you're saying Destiny::Warframe what Mako::Getting out of the Mako?

That's pretty accurate, actually. Inside the Mako you have fun movement and a great gun, but you're stuck on that one world and you can't go into any buildings and you can only do missions that are "kill some dudes." Outside of the Mako you can talk to people, do more complex missions, get back on your ship and fly to other worlds, use 2 guns (and a sword in Warframe) and your class "magic" powers, and engage in trade and crafting.

--

I LOVE the way you move around in Destiny. I love the feel of the guns. Those elements are FANTASTIC. They are also dramatically smoother and better than the movement and guns of Warframe, IMO.

BUT, Warframe has more game there. A lot more. And it has a lot more to do, and doing those things is a lot less repetitive. And while the gunplay isn't as smooth as Destiny, it's still present and varied. The enemies are more tactical. The melee is dramatically better and more in depth. The crafting is great. And - huge - the loot system is much more progress oriented than RNG-based.

Get out of the tutorial, finish acquiring all of the components of your Liset, and tell me you aren't suddenly drowning in things to do. When I first understood the scope and scale of Warframe, it was overwhelming.

Avatar

So I tried Warframe, and here's the thing

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Wednesday, May 06, 2015, 14:07 (3249 days ago) @ Kahzgul


I LOVE the way you move around in Destiny. I love the feel of the guns. Those elements are FANTASTIC. They are also dramatically smoother and better than the movement and guns of Warframe, IMO.

That right there. That is the core that makes Destiny gameplay so much fun, not your definition of gameplay, which is a bucket for everything you dislike about Destiny. This is why I find your 3/10 score preposterous.

Avatar

So I tried Warframe, and here's the thing

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Wednesday, May 06, 2015, 14:13 (3249 days ago) @ Kermit


I LOVE the way you move around in Destiny. I love the feel of the guns. Those elements are FANTASTIC. They are also dramatically smoother and better than the movement and guns of Warframe, IMO.

That right there. That is the core that makes Destiny gameplay so much fun, not your definition of gameplay, which is a bucket for everything you dislike about Destiny. This is why I find your 3/10 score preposterous.

This is the thing I love about Bungie. They take a particular aspect of gaming and release a game and when you use that aspect of the game you say to yourself "EVERY other game has been doing this wrong until now." I felt that way about shields and multi-player game flow in Halo. All games before Halo were twitch fests and I hated it.

Is this about the controls?

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Tuesday, May 05, 2015, 15:20 (3250 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto

Because once you get used to it it's actually really easy to get around in Warframe. Just takes some adjusting to how exactly wallrunning and climbing works.

When you first start though? Yeah, little rough.

Avatar

Is this about the controls?

by SonofMacPhisto @, Thursday, May 07, 2015, 22:14 (3248 days ago) @ someotherguy

Exactly right. It was just not fun. At all. Like the Mako but all the redeeming qualities removed.

Back to the forum index
RSS Feed of thread