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Bounty changes to put the player back in control (Destiny)

by Kahzgul, Wednesday, June 24, 2015, 20:05 (3261 days ago)

So my depressed thread below sparked a conversation which eventually landed on me listing out all of the things I feel like I *have* to do in order to improve my gear for the one thing that I *want* to do. And I realized that a lot of this is because of how bounties are doled out. You go to a board and see all of the bounties for the day. You can then accept or decline up to 10 of them. Maybe you also go to Eris and the Queen's representative. So that's 3 bounty boards in two different locations just to start your day, every day. 4 if Iron Banner is in season. If you're like me, you don't even bother with Eris because you don't really need the rep anymore, but I digress.

These bounties that you get are all over the place. Some are crucible, some are patrol, some are strikes, some are missions, some are weird special quest things and so forth. You pick up a bunch and then kind of map out "how do I do these the most efficient way possible," right?

The result is that the game is telling you what to do. It encourages certain activities and behaviors, and greatly encourages you to spread yourself thin through many different modes of play. This isn't overtly harmful, but I still think this is a bad thing, in a subtle sort of way. The bounty system, as it stands today, is a subtle attack on player agency. It encourages you to do the things that the game is telling you to do, rather than rewarding you for doing what you want to do. Over time, you grow accustomed to doing what the game says, lose your sense of agency, and burn out on the game. I hope that makes sense.

I think a shift in bounty philosophy would greatly improve the gameplay experience.

What if, when you logged in, there was no bounty board. You no longer had a bounty inventory, except for certain persistent things like quests and exotic bounties. Instead, when you're in orbit, the first thing you do is decide what you want to do. There's no "let me check the bounties" because they don't work that way. Okay, I'm going to Venus. As you fly to Venus, during the loading screen, several bounties show up. Venus bounties. Ones that can be completed in patrol or missions. Then you pick your patrol or your mission or your venus strike, and as that loads, further bounties are added to your inventory for that activity. The bounties now serve as a "bonus" reward for doing something (collect 200 sensor mites), as well as providing a new avenue for extra challenges (think bounty: Get 2 kills with a fusion rifle, 20 times, but it's only available during that strike... much more challenging). You were going to do the activity anyway, and now the bounties load in as you join it, complementing your gameplay and rewarding you for making your own choices.

Player agency is pretty real in Destiny, but the bounty and reward system undermine it in a very soft, subtle way. This change would reinforce agency rather than work against it.

Now, I'm sure some will say that I can play however i want to right now. You're completely right. My point is that the game is encouraging me not to. The reward systems and bounties steer me towards activities I'm not really into and that reduces the overall fun of the game. Without changing anything else but how bounties are acquired, I think the game could be much more fun for all of us.

Can you get all the bounties in one place?

by scarab @, Wednesday, June 24, 2015, 20:11 (3261 days ago) @ Kahzgul

or do you have to go to all the places to get all the bounties?

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You don't "get them" at all, or rather, you have them all

by Kahzgul, Wednesday, June 24, 2015, 20:17 (3261 days ago) @ scarab

They're active while you're in the location they can be completed in, so you see your 'active bounties' while you're there, and don't see them anymore when you leave. Bounties would reset progress daily. Some bounties would reset when you left the activity; others would remember your progress (I'd say you could mouse over the location to see in-progress bounties that could be completed there).

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Bounty changes to put the player back in control

by General Vagueness @, The Vault of Sass, Wednesday, June 24, 2015, 20:21 (3261 days ago) @ Kahzgul
edited by General Vagueness, Wednesday, June 24, 2015, 20:30

So my depressed thread below sparked a conversation which eventually landed on me listing out all of the things I feel like I *have* to do in order to improve my gear for the one thing that I *want* to do. And I realized that a lot of this is because of how bounties are doled out. You go to a board and see all of the bounties for the day. You can then accept or decline up to 10 of them. Maybe you also go to Eris and the Queen's representative. So that's 3 bounty boards in two different locations just to start your day, every day. 4 if Iron Banner is in season. If you're like me, you don't even bother with Eris because you don't really need the rep anymore, but I digress.

These bounties that you get are all over the place. Some are crucible, some are patrol, some are strikes, some are missions, some are weird special quest things and so forth. You pick up a bunch and then kind of map out "how do I do these the most efficient way possible," right?

No, I just play and they get finished when they get finished. The only exceptions I can think of is patrol mission and public event bounties, where I have to specifically seek something something out, and Eris and Petra's bounties, which are more specific and structured.

The result is that the game is telling you what to do. It encourages certain activities and behaviors, and greatly encourages you to spread yourself thin through many different modes of play. This isn't overtly harmful, but I still think this is a bad thing, in a subtle sort of way. The bounty system, as it stands today, is a subtle attack on player agency. It encourages you to do the things that the game is telling you to do, rather than rewarding you for doing what you want to do.

That's a matter of perspective, as noted above. If you take them as orders then they're orders. If you take them as "when you get done with this you'll get some rep" and just go about your play, it's different.

I think a shift in bounty philosophy would greatly improve the gameplay experience.

What if, when you logged in, there was no bounty board. You no longer had a bounty inventory, except for certain persistent things like quests and exotic bounties. Instead, when you're in orbit, the first thing you do is decide what you want to do. There's no "let me check the bounties" because they don't work that way. Okay, I'm going to Venus. As you fly to Venus, during the loading screen, several bounties show up. Venus bounties. Ones that can be completed in patrol or missions. Then you pick your patrol or your mission or your venus strike, and as that loads, further bounties are added to your inventory for that activity. The bounties now serve as a "bonus" reward for doing something (collect 200 sensor mites), as well as providing a new avenue for extra challenges (think bounty: Get 2 kills with a fusion rifle, 20 times, but it's only available during that strike... much more challenging). You were going to do the activity anyway, and now the bounties load in as you join it, complementing your gameplay and rewarding you for making your own choices.

If they did that some people would still see those as orders, and possibly worse since there would be no way to avoid them. That said, I wouldn't mind if they did that way, and I'd probably like it better, but even if it fixed the problem with them for you (and I'm not sure it would if it had been like that from the beginning), it wouldn't fix it for everyone.
I'm not sure about your explanation either, you don't fly in to a destination until after you pick your patrol or whatever.
Your idea of limiting some bounties to one strike or something similar isn't bad, but we already have bounties that are harder and more complicated than that and those apparently do nothing for you since you didn't mention them.

Player agency is pretty real in Destiny, but the bounty and reward system undermine it in a very soft, subtle way. This change would reinforce agency rather than work against it.

Now, I'm sure some will say that I can play however i want to right now. You're completely right. My point is that the game is encouraging me not to. The reward systems and bounties steer me towards activities I'm not really into and that reduces the overall fun of the game. Without changing anything else but how bounties are acquired, I think the game could be much more fun for all of us.

I disagree, because with this change there would be no escaping the bounty system, and you would see them not just when you get them, when you complete them, when you turn them in, and when you go to the inventory screen, but every time you load a different thing, and also still when you complete them presumably, and going by your other post also when you leave a destination and then even consider going back. I wouldn't mind it, you might not mind it, but I guarantee other people would find it to be pushing the bounties more and be put off by it. Again, I'd like it, I think it's a good idea, but it's not a real fix for this element you consider faulty.

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Bounty changes to put the player back in control

by kanbo @, Seattle, WA, Wednesday, June 24, 2015, 20:23 (3261 days ago) @ Kahzgul

Maybe you should just pick up bounties for what you want to do. Your solution here is basically "hide the bounties from me," which is practically useless because they're still there and you'll probably go look at a page online with the bounties listed and then you say that you feel obligated to do all of them for every activity.

Or don't pick up any, since they have such diminishing returns the longer that you play the game.

Better yet, don't play the game if you don't want to play.

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What you've described...

by slycrel ⌂, Wednesday, June 24, 2015, 20:35 (3261 days ago) @ Kahzgul

...is similar to how public events and prowling wolves work. They already have a system for that kind of thing. Bounties are somewhat soulless, yes, but I think they represent what the vanguard or crucible wants you to do. (er, vanguard factions, but it's all wrapped into the vanguard, probably for the better) I'd like them to be a bit more specific to the factions and feel a little more personal. Really, they are super simple quests right now. Faction quests might be a better fit, and having those triggered both by picking them up or within proximity (heh, which they also do, via patrol missions) would be cool.

As a software developer and avid RPGer in my younger years, it's clear to me bungie has put a lot of time and work into what they're doing and having it be intentional.

The real issue I think is that bounties by far and away give you more XP than anything else, once you've gone through the story. So players feel "forced" into doing bounties rather than pub events, patrol missions, etc. I think the original intent was to do whatever you want, but levelling weapons fast forces you to do a bunch of bounties since there's no other way. But I suspect the original design was "do what you want". It's gotten lost a little along the way.

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What you've described...

by Kahzgul, Wednesday, June 24, 2015, 20:57 (3261 days ago) @ slycrel

That's absolutely true. If bounties weren't the massive xp providers that they are, they wouldn't feel as important. If everything gave xp at a rate commensurate with bounties, I wouldn't be so compelled to do them.

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Bounty changes to put the player back in control

by unoudid @, Somewhere over the rainbow, Wednesday, June 24, 2015, 21:21 (3261 days ago) @ Kahzgul

I still wish Destiny has a similar bounty system to Skyrim. Let us pick up random bounties while on patrol and then some of those can lead to awesome pieces of gear.

Can you image running into a random NPC that just roams the world of Destiny. You finally find this Stranger and then get sent on a quest if you so chose. At the end of this quest line you finally are able to acquire the fabled "Gjallarhorn". This could be an awesome way for you to interact with the various factions via patrol. Some of the current exotic bounties are a small step in the right direction. I just wish they had more story involved.

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Bounty changes to put the player back in control

by Relativiox @, Wednesday, June 24, 2015, 21:27 (3261 days ago) @ Kahzgul

Maybe I'm in the minority, but to be honest I really like the current system. I dislike the games where they just throw you in a sandbox and say, "Here you go, do stuff". I like gaming to have some structure and for me that's what the bounties do. Otherwise I would either not play as much or I would find the area where it's easiest to complete it's set of bounties and just play there for the remainder of the game. The current system provides variety. Most of the time I wouldn't go to Mars for pretty much any reason, but today there is a patrol Mars bounty so I'll go there for a while.

Again this is just my 2 cents, but I love the structure the current bounty system provides.

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Bounty changes to put the player back in control

by Kahzgul, Thursday, June 25, 2015, 14:53 (3260 days ago) @ Relativiox

Maybe I'm in the minority, but to be honest I really like the current system. I dislike the games where they just throw you in a sandbox and say, "Here you go, do stuff". I like gaming to have some structure and for me that's what the bounties do. Otherwise I would either not play as much or I would find the area where it's easiest to complete it's set of bounties and just play there for the remainder of the game. The current system provides variety. Most of the time I wouldn't go to Mars for pretty much any reason, but today there is a patrol Mars bounty so I'll go there for a while.

Again this is just my 2 cents, but I love the structure the current bounty system provides.

But your patrol mars example is doing exactly what you just said you don't like: It's telling you "here, go do stuff on mars. Do 6 stuffs." Sure, it's narrowing your field to just mars, but the fact remains that you're wandering around an area looking for something to fall into your lap... 6 times.

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