I Like Destiny better when I'm down a level (Destiny)

by electricpirate @, Tuesday, June 30, 2015, 16:35 (3219 days ago)

Last night I ran the Heroic at level 30 with my lvl 29 Titan. What struck me, was how much more fun I was having than when I run Dragon strikes at level 28. The damage balance forced me to make more split second decisions, and execute with a far higher level of confidence. Majors become pretty important hard points on the battlefield. You have to start understanding how the spawns work, and what challenges are coming at you. I feel like I have to understand my weapons, and how to use them, or how to properly use my grenades. For me, it's where Destiny's myriad of systems gel, and the game feels better than any other FPS out there.

Other people seem to *Hate* it though. Maybe the dynamics of facing a 33 as a 32 or a 35 as a 34 in the context of the raid or POE don't work? I think there's something more here though. The two complaints I see about it are. I want to unpack them, because I think Destiny plays really well a level down, and I want to see Bungie providing that challenge in more activities.

1) "Well, it doesn't introduce new mechanics"
2) "It's not really fair just to pit me against stronger enemies."

When designing processing player feedback on a game I'm making, I generally find that players often have legitimate issues with your game, but they very rarely correctly identify the root causes. There's something about being a level down that many players don't like.

I think 2 is fairly easy, in that it's not a problem of number balancing as much as it's about information presentation. A player sees that higher number and it reads as unfair. If they just had to deal with a harder enemy they'd see it as that, a harder enemy. My suggestion would be to move away from those big numbers over the heads of enemy and switch models/names/palettes for enemies that are stronger/weaker than you. There's a few ways to handle this one, but honestly, I think the core issue is that inadequacy introducing number above that dregs head that stops many people.

Number one is harder, and I think it kind of goes to the core issues in Destiny. First, I want to make something clear, while a simple level shift doesn't create new mechanics, it does expose and focus the existing mechanics of destiny in important ways. By changing the numbers, it creates entirely new dynamics to the fights that make them feel very different. It's the exact same reason Legendary difficulty in Halo games felt so compelling.

I think the core issue here comes down to the perception of value, or lack thereof in destiny content. If people feel like they have multiple avenues and ways to play one avenue being about taking on these super mobs doesn't feel so bad. But if taking on super tough mobs is the *only* way to advance in PvE, it gets grating. I think that ties into a lot of other issues.

Weidly, another way to help the rebellion against level+1 content might be to have *more of it.* For example, the Heroic and story missions top out at 32, why not 35, even with only a small reward increase would expand the variety of end game activities that capture the core challenge that many players love. Let people experience being a level down in more contexts than just one endgame activity (crota HM/PoE 35) and I think it feels less like a cop-out and more like a mechanical extension of the game.

So yea, long story short, embrace being down a level, and get some more content where you are down a level ;).

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I Like Destiny better when I'm down a level

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Tuesday, June 30, 2015, 16:39 (3219 days ago) @ electricpirate

Agreed. It feels like playing Halo 1 on legendary. Tough but fun and fair.

I Like Destiny better when I'm down a level

by electricpirate @, Tuesday, June 30, 2015, 16:41 (3219 days ago) @ Ragashingo

Agreed. It feels like playing Halo 1 on legendary. Tough but fun and fair.

Yea, It makes me not want to get up to level 32 where I stop having that option in every mode :\

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I Like Destiny better when I'm down a level

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Tuesday, June 30, 2015, 16:43 (3219 days ago) @ electricpirate

So yea, long story short, embrace being down a level, and get some more content where you are down a level ;).

One of my most memorable fights in Destiny was the finale of the Stranger's Call mission, where I went up against level 14 enemies as an 11 (Defender). It was extremely tough and unforgiving.

I was talking about this just the other day with Malagate, since I was a 17 on the level 20 Vanguard playlist. It was very slow going, especially since my teammates ditched me. But I was telling him of how much more you have to use your head to succeed against enemies that can mop the floor with you. A lot of on-level Destiny is about absorbing damage and pushing through.
Below-level Destiny is about using your head and testing your patience, which is something that has promoted the great tactics on the Hard Raids; getting around the level difference, rather than just pushing through it.

Thanks to an abundance of Etheric Light, all of my characters are 34, but I had no qualms with being down a level or two for the sake of aesthetics. The game is much more "traditional" fun that way.

Agreed. Destiny is too easy.

by DreadPirateWes, Tuesday, June 30, 2015, 17:25 (3219 days ago) @ electricpirate

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Agreed. Destiny is too easy.

by electricpirate @, Tuesday, June 30, 2015, 17:34 (3219 days ago) @ DreadPirateWes

I think a big part of the problem is that it runs through those extremes. Either you have challenging content that only comes from POE/Raids/(somewhat nightfalls), or it's lower engagement activities.

So once I hit max level, to get legendary style content, I have to form a raid fireteam. I think that's a big part of the tension.

Agreed. Destiny is too easy.

by DreadPirateWes, Tuesday, June 30, 2015, 18:03 (3219 days ago) @ electricpirate

I think a big part of the problem is that it runs through those extremes. Either you have challenging content that only comes from POE/Raids/(somewhat nightfalls), or it's lower engagement activities.

So once I hit max level, to get legendary style content, I have to form a raid fireteam. I think that's a big part of the tension.

I wish I could play old missions with more skulls activated (chosen by me) and rewards were extra experience per skull. As it is now, there's no incentive for re-running an old mission (unless it's the daily).

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You could try doing it just for fun.

by Funkmon @, Tuesday, June 30, 2015, 18:16 (3219 days ago) @ DreadPirateWes

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Easy is not fun for me

by DreadPirateWes, Tuesday, June 30, 2015, 18:23 (3219 days ago) @ Funkmon

That's why I am against patrol, dummed down qodron, etc. I'd rather have crappy rewards and very difficult -- Skolas!!!

Edit -- I know not everyone feels this way. That's why I wish they had more customization options to allow the player to make content more/less difficult.

Easy is not fun for me

by electricpirate @, Tuesday, June 30, 2015, 18:40 (3219 days ago) @ DreadPirateWes

That's why I am against patrol, dummed down qodron, etc. I'd rather have crappy rewards and very difficult -- Skolas!!!

Edit -- I know not everyone feels this way. That's why I wish they had more customization options to allow the player to make content more/less difficult.

Well, they do have that, it's the level differential/skulls ;) But they only activate in very rare circumstances.

More to the point, I think Bungie's attempt to "Slope the floor" so all players tackle all the content is kind of the problem here. PLayers like you don't want to go into patrol to tackle some low engagement mobs to clear some bounties, and other players don't want to go up against the hardest POE/Raids to advance. Destiny kind of makes everyone do everything.

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Standard MMO stuff.

by Funkmon @, Tuesday, June 30, 2015, 18:48 (3219 days ago) @ electricpirate

Part of the MMO lief.

I Like Destiny better when I'm down a level

by Claude Errera @, Tuesday, June 30, 2015, 17:50 (3219 days ago) @ electricpirate

Other people seem to *Hate* it though. Maybe the dynamics of facing a 33 as a 32 or a 35 as a 34 in the context of the raid or POE don't work? I think there's something more here though. The two complaints I see about it are. I want to unpack them, because I think Destiny plays really well a level down, and I want to see Bungie providing that challenge in more activities.

Heh - I like it... sometimes. I wanted to point out, though, that being a 17, and playing level 18 enemies is a MUCH different proposition than being a 33 and playing 34 enemies. The first is fun (and not even that hard). The second... can be grueling.

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I Like Destiny better when I'm down a level

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, June 30, 2015, 17:52 (3219 days ago) @ Claude Errera

Other people seem to *Hate* it though. Maybe the dynamics of facing a 33 as a 32 or a 35 as a 34 in the context of the raid or POE don't work? I think there's something more here though. The two complaints I see about it are. I want to unpack them, because I think Destiny plays really well a level down, and I want to see Bungie providing that challenge in more activities.


Heh - I like it... sometimes. I wanted to point out, though, that being a 17, and playing level 18 enemies is a MUCH different proposition than being a 33 and playing 34 enemies. The first is fun (and not even that hard). The second... can be grueling.

Now you know why level 35 PoE is a test of patience and attrition :-p

I think those major fallen servitors must have more HP than Sepkis prime! No joke, it takes 5 Gjallarhorn rockets to kill a single one, in part due to the level penalty.

I Like Destiny better when I'm down a level

by DreadPirateWes, Tuesday, June 30, 2015, 18:10 (3219 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I think those major fallen servitors must have more HP than Sepkis prime! No joke, it takes 5 Gjallarhorn rockets to kill a single one, in part due to the level penalty.

Tip re those servitors on round 5 skolas: Don't bother killing them. With proper spacing they won't come to the safe area.

If your fireteam is spaced out along the wall in the left safe zone and you shoot them every once and a while, then the servitors won't go up the ramps. One in the corner, one in middle, and one at the top is ideal. Conversely, if you don't shoot them and you all group up near the top, then they will start rushing up the ramps at you.

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I Like Destiny better when I'm down a level

by dogcow @, Hiding from Bob, in the vent core., Tuesday, June 30, 2015, 22:27 (3219 days ago) @ electricpirate

I enjoy playing reckless when up a level. Over committing and getting into trouble is fun for me, being in a situation where my shields are down and I have a bunch of guys around me makes for an exciting few seconds.

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