Crucible Balance is Completely Unacceptable.

Especially for Defender and Sunbreaker Titans. The former is an underpowered super magnet that doesn't have a chance in hell to compete and the other one is overpowered and overly damage resistant when its Super is active.

Try playing a Defender in Mayhem and you'll see exactly what I mean. :/

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Mayhem sucks anyway. Its supposed to be fun and crazy, I just find it frustrating. Around every corner is just death. Defender's weakness really shows up in Mayhem and I don't think it could be fixed without some serious modifications. Maybe a suppression nade that chains, swap overshield punches with the sunsinger so it activates on a hit, not a kill. Maybe an exotic armor that gives both blessing and weapons at the same time or a bubble that can't be destroyed at all. Maybe when a bubble is cast it could suppress anyone in a radius around it temporarily.

Hammerflingers I don't really have an issue with. They are tough, but I've killed a bunch of them. I like to get them cocky bastards with a fist of havoc :) I try to set em up so they have to turn a corner to get me, then smash em good before they can hit me.

I'd suggest avoiding that playlist if it doesn't fit your style. I only do it for the marks.

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Mayhem sucks anyway. Its supposed to be fun and crazy, I just find it frustrating. Around every corner is just death.

Mayhem makes more players feel like I feel in just about every other crucible mode.

Then again, I'm not really sure it'd be possible to balance all subclasses equally for PVE, let alone for PVP.

What exactly is a Defender supposed to do in PVP in general, aside from the objective gametypes? I could see the value of it in Zone Control or Salvage... but Mayhem? What good could it possibly be? How could it be fixed by balance except by nerfing everybody else's super to be just as useless as the Defender's?

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What exactly is a Defender supposed to do in PVP in general, aside from the objective gametypes? I could see the value of it in Zone Control or Salvage... but Mayhem? What good could it possibly be? How could it be fixed by balance except by nerfing everybody else's super to be just as useless as the Defender's?

You could make the Bubble take four golden gun shots to put down instead of two.

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What exactly is a Defender supposed to do in PVP in general, aside from the objective gametypes? I could see the value of it in Zone Control or Salvage... but Mayhem? What good could it possibly be? How could it be fixed by balance except by nerfing everybody else's super to be just as useless as the Defender's?

You could make the Bubble take four golden gun shots to put down instead of two.

I don't see how that helps. Presumably that won't affect anyone wearing Celestial Nighthawk, or anyone spec'd for a fourth short, but it's just a cheap "gotcha" for anyone who goes in spec'd for something different.

The bubble's good against certain things, but not others... why this in particular? How often are you actually going to see a charged gunslinger coming just in time to drop a bubble, but before he shoots?

I'm not saying that GG isn't perhaps overpowered. I don't play enough crucible to say it isn't, but the timing of how defender bubbles work just seem to me entirely wrong except in either objective gametypes, or perhaps in Trials where you're trying to revive someone and need some time to be safe from distant attackers.

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What exactly is a Defender supposed to do in PVP in general, aside from the objective gametypes? I could see the value of it in Zone Control or Salvage... but Mayhem? What good could it possibly be? How could it be fixed by balance except by nerfing everybody else's super to be just as useless as the Defender's?

You could make the Bubble take four golden gun shots to put down instead of two.

I don't see how that helps. Presumably that won't affect anyone wearing Celestial Nighthawk, or anyone spec'd for a fourth short, but it's just a cheap "gotcha" for anyone who goes in spec'd for something different.

No. My fully defensive Super is not a cheap gotcha. It is a Super! When used right it, like other Supers, should give me a fighting chance against anything and everything. I'm fine with the bubble breaking to people who have chosen longer / more powerful supers because they do so at the expense of something else. Right now Ward of Dawn is simply outclassed. Unfairly so. Game breakingly so.

The bubble's good against certain things, but not others... why this in particular? How often are you actually going to see a charged gunslinger coming just in time to drop a bubble, but before he shoots?

Terrible question. For two reasons. 1. Most of the time I know there is a Golden Gun or Hammer of Sol active on the map based on the unique, distinct power up sounds, based on the kill feed, and based on fire team chatter. Am I surprised sometimes? Sure! But it's very rare. 2. And being surprised is not the issue here, of course I should lose when surprised. That's the same whether I'm in melee combat, gun combat, or Super combat.

The issue here is one Subclass being all around massively weaker in the Crucible than all the others.

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Quite frankly, there are a bunch of things that could be done.

Making Ward of Dawn able to effectively protect against other Supers would be a huge start. Right now it's just a big "aim here to kill me" beacon because most Supers can kill the bubble and the people inside from a safe distance. Either the bubble should actually be indestructible (like its description says!) or it should force an enemy to use most of their Super to break it. Right now Hunters and Sunbreakers can break it with only half their Super.

Some other options I discussed were:

- Changing the Defender's melee ability to provide some kind benefit upon a hit rather than only upon a kill. As it stands now the charged melee of a Defender goes almost completely unused in the Crucible while several other subclasses get things like overshields, health regeneration, cloaking, and damage over time from mere hits on an enemy.

- Have Ward of Dawn fall to the same amount of damage as now, but let it have a death delay where things like Nova Bomb and Fist of Havoc would not immediately strip the people inside of their protection.

- Ward of Dawn could suppress Abilities of enemies who enter making running into it and throwing flaming hammers at the ground until the Defender dies (a thing that really did happen to me last night even with Armor of Light on) a thing of the past. We now have a Hunter Sublass who's aimed, tracking Super suppresses abilities at a distance. Why not let the Defender put up a very obvious, completely stationary suppression field?

- Ward of Dawn should not generate any orbs by simply being cast and should instead allow anyone in it or under its effects to generate orbs of light (up to the normal 8 maximum) and kills within it or under its effects (Armor of Light, Blessing of Light, Weapons of Light) should count as Super kills for the Defender. This would eliminate the hugely unfair issues where Defenders cannot earn "Get Super Kills" type bounties while getting rid of people overlapping bubbles "Bubble Bro" style to generate an unending chain of bubbles.

- Add to this my experience of having gotten to play against a vastly accelerated number of Supers last night and I'd also like to see the Defender's Suppression Grenade detonate either on impact or after a much shorter delay. Right now it is very very very hard to Suppress an enemy's Super. The long ranged one's like Golden Gun or Hammer of Sol require such perfect timing to stop and things like Bladedancers move so quickly and randomly that the Suppression Grenade's long fuse makes it extremely difficult to correctly place the grenade.

Yes, it would be very hard to perfectly balance all the subclasses, but the perfect is the enemy of the good. I think a few minor tweaks to the Defender could make it into a powerful but fair defensive class instead of a massive liability, like my fireteam kept telling me I was last night. The fact that they were totally right, that I was causing us to lose games because I could easily double my kills by switching subclasses to Striker or Sunbreaker, only further proves that the situation is drastically and unavoidably broken, even for a very experienced Defender who was actually trying to play up any and all strengths his Subclass had.

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Especially the "kills under Ward effect generate Orbs". I mean, FFS, Nightstalkers do that!

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God, I really, really hate being that guy. Seriously.

But if Defender is that broken in PvP, why would anyone put themselves through it? If it's such a disadvantage, don't use it, and play Striker or Sunbreaker in PvP.

Obviously that doesn't fix the real issue at all, but it'll make your life a whole lot more enjoyable.

For the record I don't play enough Crucible to make any sort of proposals for the problem, but if it sucks that I bad, I just wouldn't use it.

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God, I really, really hate being that guy. Seriously.

But if Defender is that broken in PvP, why would anyone put themselves through it? If it's such a disadvantage, don't use it, and play Striker or Sunbreaker in PvP.

Obviously that doesn't fix the real issue at all, but it'll make your life a whole lot more enjoyable.

For the record I don't play enough Crucible to make any sort of proposals for the problem, but if it sucks that I bad, I just wouldn't use it.

Yeah the only problem is, that still doesn't make it any fun to play against Sunbreakers. I've started to come to terms with Stormcallers because I realized Chaperone can put them down fairly easily, but I've ALMOST killed so many Sunbreakers in Crucible when their health recharges because they got a kill. It was frustrating on Bladedancers, but at least Bladedancers USUALLY have to be close to get a kill (plus they die to a single Chaperone headshot), Sunbreakers can kill you from across the map.

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I won't be playing a Defender in the Crucible any more. I already knew the Subclass was ridiculously broken but Mayhem provided a great opportunity to see just how bad it is. I wasn't mad last night. I was laughing and having fun exploring the extent of how massive a liability a Defender is in the Crucible.

I'm not complaining that I didn't do well. I knew I was going to do terrible. I'm trying to shed Light on how badly the Defender subclass fares and offer useful, reasonable suggestions on how it can be fixed.

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Yeah I get it. I wasn't trying to be snarky or anything.

Just saying that if it is really that broken, I wouldn't even touch it. I'm all for playing in ways that are fun versus what's necessarily the best, but if it's that bad, it won't be fun regardless, so why put yourself through it?

It definitely sounds like an issue that needs to be addressed.

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I'm not complaining that I didn't do well. I knew I was going to do terrible. I'm trying to shed Light on how badly the Defender subclass fares and offer useful, reasonable suggestions on how it can be fixed.

It's funny how often people say that Defender is overpowered, because pretty much nothing outside of a Super can counter it, and Defender apologists are like "Good! They should only be weak against other Supers."
And now we have a playlist all about Supers, and they're like "our Defense-based class that is only weak against Supers is weak against Supers! It needs a buff!"

"..."

The playlist definitely favors offense-based Supers (and ranged ones at that), so playing as the zero-range defense class is going to be a huge disadvantage. You want more buffs to the shield? How would that fare in regular playlists, where only four of the nine Subclasses can successfully beat a bubble Titan as it is now, and only when their Supers are full?

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.

I'm not complaining that I didn't do well. I knew I was going to do terrible. I'm trying to shed Light on how badly the Defender subclass fares and offer useful, reasonable suggestions on how it can be fixed.

It's funny how often people say that Defender is overpowered, because pretty much nothing outside of a Super can counter it, and Defender apologists are like "Good! They should only be weak against other Supers."
And now we have a playlist all about Supers, and they're like "our Defense-based class that is only weak against Supers is weak against Supers! It needs a buff!"

"..."

If I understand you, Defenders should be easily countered:

1. When they are using a Super and you aren't.
2. When you are using a Super while they aren't.
3. When both you and them are using a Super.

That's not true of any other Subclass. Why should Defenders be at such a disadvantage all the time?

The playlist definitely favors offense-based Supers (and ranged ones at that), so playing as the zero-range defense class is going to be a huge disadvantage. You want more buffs to the shield? How would that fare in regular playlists, where only four of the nine Subclasses can successfully beat a bubble Titan as it is now, and only when their Supers are full?

Few to none of my suggestions invovle making Ward of Dawn any more troublesome to normal combat than it already is. Making the bubble fully block a Super isn't going to ever effect someone shooting at it with a gun since they were never going to pop it anyway. Making it cancel active Supers when they pass inside isn't going to affect people who weren't using their Supers. Giving the Defender a grenade as easy to use as the Flamebolt or Arcbolt grenades isn't going to do anyting but bring the Defender up to par grenade effectiveness. Etc.

If all your complaint comes down to is Defenders are tought to beat when they are using their Super while you aren't... then you really have no valid complaint at all!

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I think you have some great points on how to make the defender better. It's crazy to me how the Sunbreakers seem so overpowered compared to any other class (seriously, can you actually kill them?) and then the Defender seems like such a waste of a class in PvP.

I'd love to see the Titan class get reworked some.at the very least, the Titan bubble should count as a super kill in PvE

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In the objective game times the only way to really counter the bubble is with a super. A shotgun toting Defender is very difficult to get out otherwise. You have to be careful that optimizing the bubble for a slayer style game doesn't break it for objective type games. Don't forget the bubble trains in control where Crest Titans would continuously chain supers.

Moreover, other classes suffer too. Stormcaller/Sunbreakers are pretty much superior to bladedancer/gunslingers in every way in PVP. Stormcallers can melee and super from across the room, where as a blade dancer needs to get in your face, and Sunbreakers get homing, explosions, armor and flat out more shots then gunslingers.

All the new subclasses are better designed then their counterparts, but it seems that with the other mechanics changes the Hunter classes suffer the worst. I pretty much only see people using Gunslinger with the Nighthawk helmet for boss damage in Kings Fall, all other times they are generating mad orbs for the team. Rarely, if ever do I see blade dancers, and they are just trying to abuse the stealth mechanics.

Defender, in PVE, is still in high demand for both orbs and buffs via the bubble.

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Crucible Balance is Completely Unacceptable. (Destiny)

Crucible Balance is Completely Unacceptable.

Not sure what kind of balance you'd want for that.

Not sure what kind of balance you'd want for that.

Not sure what kind of balance you'd want for that.

Not sure what kind of balance you'd want for that.

Not sure what kind of balance you'd want for that.

Most of those sound good

+1

So don't play a Defender . . .

So don't play a Defender . . .

So don't play a Defender . . .

So don't play a Defender . . .

So don't play a Defender . . .

So don't play a Defender . . .

Eff those Sunbreakers, defenders need some buffs

Only in Mayhem