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Revives in Hard Mode (Destiny)

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, November 30, 2015, 22:53 (3041 days ago)

There's a thread on reddit right now about not having revives in Hard Mode, and how most people don't like that. Thoughts?

I think that it's really only become a problem with King's Fall, because the mechanics are so specific and tight. The other raids had things you needed to do, but you could kind of go about doing them in whatever way you wanted. If someone died, you just adjusted. There was more of a flexibility, which on the one hand made them 'easier' but on the other hand felt more natural. King's fall gets pretty rigid once you get to the daughters, with four people essentially stuck doing a very specific things with little room to deviate.

Of course, someone in the thread suggested something brilliant: on hard mode you can revive someone if your super meter is full, and doing so will drain it.

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My opinion: it's called hard mode for a reason. No revives.

by Funkmon @, Monday, November 30, 2015, 23:21 (3041 days ago) @ Cody Miller

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My opinion: it's called hard mode for a reason. No revives.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, November 30, 2015, 23:27 (3041 days ago) @ Funkmon

The issue is that there isn't really any way to fix a mistake by making a good play. There's no way to overcome a slip up. A great encounter should be hard, but if you do slip up, you should have the chance to do something extra skillful to bring yourself back on track.

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Not on Hard Mode, no.

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Monday, November 30, 2015, 23:33 (3041 days ago) @ Cody Miller

;)

But honestly, the Normal King's Fall is already pretty slip-resistant. It would be far too easy to have revives in Hard Mode to earn the title over the Normal Mode.

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Nah.

by Funkmon @, Monday, November 30, 2015, 23:39 (3041 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Look, I don't like the no revives thing. I prefer doing normal mode raids to hard mode raids. I don't like things that are hard in any way.

But allowing a revive, for anything, literally anything, would take away what makes the hard mode raids hard as fuck, which is their draw.

What about a single revive?

by Avateur @, Monday, November 30, 2015, 23:43 (3041 days ago) @ Funkmon

Maybe something pops up on screen notifying any and all dead players that they can hold down RB and LB to revive. The catch is, you only get to do this once in the entirety of the Raid, and once someone does it, it disappears from everyone else's screens. It would add a bit of strategy to the use of it. Think of it like a challenge flag in football, except here you literally only get one use, right or wrong.

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That would be cool and very likely infuriating

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Monday, November 30, 2015, 23:45 (3041 days ago) @ Avateur

"What the hell, Chad?! You wasted our revive for THAT?!"

Also, possibly insanely hard to code it exploit-proof.

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Sounds like the tablet of ruin on golgoroth

by slycrel ⌂, Tuesday, December 01, 2015, 00:39 (3041 days ago) @ ZackDark

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What about zero revives?

by Funkmon @, Monday, November 30, 2015, 23:52 (3041 days ago) @ Avateur

This isn't directed at anyone here in particular, but in regards the Destiny community at large.

I don't know why everyone wants to change stuff in Destiny that they don't like personally. The developers had a clear idea of what they wanted in hard mode: no revives. In a game where lots of stuff has changed, including nightfalls, this has remained constant. They want it to be like this, and they think it's fine.

I swear to god, people of the Destiny community would take a look at the Mona Lisa and tell her to show some teeth and cleavage.

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What about zero revives?

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, November 30, 2015, 23:58 (3041 days ago) @ Funkmon

I don't know why everyone wants to change stuff in Destiny that they don't like personally. The developers had a clear idea of what they wanted in hard mode: no revives. In a game where lots of stuff has changed, including nightfalls, this has remained constant. They want it to be like this, and they think it's fine.

I don't believe I ever said "Bungie change this". It is simply a discussion our group has had many weeks ago, and discussions many people are having online now. It is not breaking any laws to look at an aspect of the game and examine whether it is ultimately good or bad in the overall picture.

Nightfalls are a bad example, since their mechanic, being kicked to orbit on wipe, was as central to the experience as no revives is to hard mode. And that went away.

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What about zero revives?

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Tuesday, December 01, 2015, 00:48 (3041 days ago) @ Funkmon

This isn't directed at anyone here in particular, but in regards the Destiny community at large.

I don't know why everyone wants to change stuff in Destiny that they don't like personally.

Aside from the general and pervasive noise of the Internet, Bungie has specifically engaged the community in asking for feedback. I'm not defending the attitude some people take of "demanding changes", of course. But providing feedback, expressing likes and dislikes, hopes and concerns... I feel like that's all part of a healthy developer-community relationship.

The developers had a clear idea of what they wanted in hard mode: no revives. In a game where lots of stuff has changed, including nightfalls, this has remained constant. They want it to be like this, and they think it's fine.

I don't think there is any harm in saying "hey Bungie, I had this idea. What do you think?". Again, as long as its expressed respectfully and constructively. Bungie can, does, and should stick to their guns when it comes to core issues they strongly believe in (lack of raid matchmaking is a perfect example)

What about zero revives?

by Avateur @, Tuesday, December 01, 2015, 01:04 (3041 days ago) @ Funkmon

This isn't directed at anyone here in particular, but in regards the Destiny community at large.

I don't know why everyone wants to change stuff in Destiny that they don't like personally. The developers had a clear idea of what they wanted in hard mode: no revives. In a game where lots of stuff has changed, including nightfalls, this has remained constant. They want it to be like this, and they think it's fine.

I swear to god, people of the Destiny community would take a look at the Mona Lisa and tell her to show some teeth and cleavage.

Lmao. I know you said it's not directed at anyone in particular, but I figured I'd let you know that I personally don't mind the no revives thing at all. I was just throwing an idea out there to see what people thought about it.

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Nah.

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, December 01, 2015, 00:21 (3041 days ago) @ Funkmon

Look, I don't like the no revives thing. I prefer doing normal mode raids to hard mode raids. I don't like things that are hard in any way.

But allowing a revive, for anything, literally anything, would take away what makes the hard mode raids hard as fuck, which is their draw.

I actually don't think so. If you're doing the Oyrx fight, it's already decently difficult to recover from a death, with revives. I haven't done HM, but I bet it's pretty much just a matter of oh, someone died? Let's just wipe because we're absolutely fucked now. That's not fun or even particularly challenging. I think it's much more rewarding, and even more challenging in some ways, to be able to recover from someone getting killed. Someone has to pick up the slack until the revive can happen which causes a scramble. Higher level enemies and the extra mechanics will make this sufficiently hard, but it also allows for you to recover from a death halfway through a fight, rather than just losing time and having to start over.

TL;DR: No revives just discourages people from trying to recover and instead start over for a clean run. That's not "hard" in any good sense of the word. It's just a frustrating waste of time.

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It's exactly like that

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Tuesday, December 01, 2015, 00:37 (3041 days ago) @ cheapLEY

But the extra mechanics on Oryx aren't that much harder than the regular Oryx.

I'd argue that Oryx has the hardest addition to Hard Mode with the blight-eating Knights, though, with the Warpriest's defense mechanisms being a close second. Every other stage, though? No revives is what takes the cake.

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And that's a problem.

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, December 01, 2015, 01:09 (3041 days ago) @ ZackDark

They're not really offering many new interesting challenging mechanics, because they can't with the current system. Adding super challenging mechanics or encounters plus no revives would be too much, so most of the difficulty is artificial in that the main focus is just not dying. It discourages interesting play and instead puts the emphasis on safe play, which is basically never as fun. Destiny is at its best when everything is FUBAR and the team is scrambling to recover and manages to come out the other side. No revives essentially makes that impossible.

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An idea for a boss mechanic

by dogcow @, Hiding from Bob, in the vent core., Tuesday, December 01, 2015, 15:01 (3041 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I think it's much more rewarding, and even more challenging in some ways, to be able to recover from someone getting killed. Someone has to pick up the slack until the revive can happen which causes a scramble.

This and other comments in this thread have given me an idea for a boss mechanic. The boss will randomly choose someone to be put in stasis, the only way to pull that individual out of stasis is by using a super in a certain location. The boss will put someone in stasis based upon a timer and/or their health level. This could make generating orbs important in that if you don't generate orbs & use supers you will eventually all end up in stasis.

Sounds like fun to me. It would make orb generating gear/perks/skills all the more important.

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I agree

by Kahzgul, Tuesday, December 01, 2015, 00:22 (3041 days ago) @ Cody Miller

This was my initial complaint with the final encounter in the raid, too. It's not possible for an awesome player to step up and pick up the slack if another player dies at certain times during the fight. If someone dies on a platform, there's no grace period for a rover to jump up there and save the attempt - you're just screwed and it's a wipe.

Very frustrating when you can do everything right (or better than right) but you keep wiping because one person in your raid isn't 100% solid.

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Revives in Hard Mode

by slycrel ⌂, Tuesday, December 01, 2015, 00:50 (3041 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I think this is actually a complaint about a different problem.

1- It's super hard to get your light level to 311 or greater, and it's a death-fest if you have a few people on that fight lower than that.
2- There is no room for mistakes. Technically you "only" need 4 people for oryx -- 3 on platforms and 1 runner... but that's really not true as without that extra 2 person's worth of DPSing, you'll get overwhelmed and die without really high light levels. (See also point 1)
3- On the oryx fight, if a bunch of badly placed eyes spawn for some reason, you are likely to see someone drop due to being suddenly overwhelmed rather than because they failed at any particular skill-check.

So people are pissed at revives -- because they'd rather revive and keep an attempt going than wipe and start over. Adding revives would fix the problems the raid has with the points above.

But I don't think that's the right fix, just a way for people to easily address the above 3 points. Because hard-mode oryx isn't much different than normal, just a couple extra knights and no revives, along with a gear check. Which is actually a lot of what people are also grumbly about -- it's about the same, but was billed as being more different.

I also think that this was somewhat intentional by bungie. They don't want people 1-2 manning the raids where possible, they want them to be 5-6 person efforts.

Without changing the fight more substantially, I'm not sure what could be done to quickly solve this particular set of issues.

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Totally agree.

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Tuesday, December 01, 2015, 01:02 (3041 days ago) @ slycrel

I think this is actually a complaint about a different problem.

1- It's super hard to get your light level to 311 or greater, and it's a death-fest if you have a few people on that fight lower than that.
2- There is no room for mistakes. Technically you "only" need 4 people for oryx -- 3 on platforms and 1 runner... but that's really not true as without that extra 2 person's worth of DPSing, you'll get overwhelmed and die without really high light levels. (See also point 1)
3- On the oryx fight, if a bunch of badly placed eyes spawn for some reason, you are likely to see someone drop due to being suddenly overwhelmed rather than because they failed at any particular skill-check.

So people are pissed at revives -- because they'd rather revive and keep an attempt going than wipe and start over. Adding revives would fix the problems the raid has with the points above.

But I don't think that's the right fix, just a way for people to easily address the above 3 points. Because hard-mode oryx isn't much different than normal, just a couple extra knights and no revives, along with a gear check. Which is actually a lot of what people are also grumbly about -- it's about the same, but was billed as being more different.

I also think that this was somewhat intentional by bungie. They don't want people 1-2 manning the raids where possible, they want them to be 5-6 person efforts.

Without changing the fight more substantially, I'm not sure what could be done to quickly solve this particular set of issues.

I think you're bang-on. To this day, my favorite encounter in Destiny is the Bridge section of Crota's End. It provides clear roles for 6 players, but a skilled and coordinated team can bend the rules a bit. Each member of the fireteam gets their moment in the spotlight, where the pressure is on them to perform. But if someone drops the ball, there is still room for another player to pull off something awesome and save the day. And while it is possible for a team of fewer than 6 players to clear it, you really need to earn it (aside from the "jump the gap" cheese). Building and crossing the bridge as a team of 3 was an intense and thrilling experience :)

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+1 for the bridge encounter!

by slycrel ⌂, Tuesday, December 01, 2015, 02:01 (3041 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

Also, I really liked that crota's end was so approachable and, once down, you could do it in 30 minutes or so.

In fact, I think I'd rather have seen 1 more boss fight and had the taken king raid split into two raids, or at least give you different routes to skip things. Because it's just so darn long.

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Eh, no.

by ProbablyLast, Tuesday, December 01, 2015, 01:26 (3041 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I also think self-res shouldn't work.

Against revives entirely

by TheeChaos @, Tuesday, December 01, 2015, 15:50 (3041 days ago) @ Cody Miller
edited by TheeChaos, Tuesday, December 01, 2015, 16:00

Hard mode is Hard because of No revives. Yes the enemy difficulty is a little higher, and the mechanics are different, but those changes don't really make it Hard mode. The no Revives does. Oryx would on Normal is easy, and its because you have a nice 30ish second break between rotations. Add revives into play, and Hardmode loses is value. So I do not think adding revives is a good idea.

However, I do agree with CruelLEGACEY's statement regarding the bridge. The design is great. It is (was) challenging, but if someone went down (or the whole team for that matter) you could pull it off if you had the skill/knowledge. The oryx fight is probably the one place where losing someone is a big thorn in your side. During my last HM Oryx, if someone died before the first rotation ended, it was a wipe. There was no "Let's see if we can do it?" because it is already complex enough with 6 people knowing what they are doing. For me that is half the fun. Everyone has to be on point the entire match. And if you suck at a certain thing, it is going to force you to get better at it, if you want to complete it. For me, The hard mode is right where it needs to be. I need to be challenged, otherwise I will be in that post House of Wolves lull that we all felt because there wasn't much to work towards.

TL:DR The Hard Mode feels great for me. It can be a headache if someone messed up, but that forces everyone to be better. No one wants to hear "Well we were doing good, until you missed the platform". Between the sisters and Oryx fight, you are forced to improve. How many bad jumpers here can honestly say that doing the Raid hasn't helped their jumping? Probably very few. (not HM related, but still).

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Sunsinger

by Beorn @, <End of Failed Timeline>, Tuesday, December 01, 2015, 17:43 (3041 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Of course, someone in the thread suggested something brilliant: on hard mode you can revive someone if your super meter is full, and doing so will drain it.

I’ve always felt that the Sunsinger “Fireborn” perk should allow you to infuse your light into someone’s Ghost and force an instant revive at the cost of draining your super out. And it’d be usable even when revives weren’t normally available, such as in standard PvP. I think that’d be an interesting adjustment.

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Sunsinger

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, December 01, 2015, 17:55 (3041 days ago) @ Beorn

Of course, someone in the thread suggested something brilliant: on hard mode you can revive someone if your super meter is full, and doing so will drain it.


I’ve always felt that the Sunsinger “Fireborn” perk should allow you to infuse your light into someone’s Ghost and force an instant revive at the cost of draining your super out. And it’d be usable even when revives weren’t normally available, such as in standard PvP. I think that’d be an interesting adjustment.

Would it be available on the revive timer cooldown? That could be abused in trials of osiris :-)

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Sunsinger

by Beorn @, <End of Failed Timeline>, Tuesday, December 01, 2015, 18:02 (3041 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Would it be available on the revive timer cooldown? That could be abused in trials of osiris :-)

Yeah, why not? You only get one revive and you sacrifice your own super (and self-res) in the process. If you think reviving your teammate before the timer is up is worth the cost of admission, then I say go for it.

“Abuse” seems like too strong of a word considering you get at most one a game.

Also, Sunbreakers have an exclusive license to the word “abuse,” for the moment, so we can’t use it.

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Sunsinger

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Tuesday, December 01, 2015, 18:23 (3041 days ago) @ Beorn

Also, Sunbreakers have an exclusive license to the word “abuse,” for the moment, so we can’t use it.

Preach! Lol

I really like your idea, too :)

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Sunsinger

by Schedonnardus, Texas, Tuesday, December 01, 2015, 18:47 (3040 days ago) @ Beorn

Of course, someone in the thread suggested something brilliant: on hard mode you can revive someone if your super meter is full, and doing so will drain it.


I’ve always felt that the Sunsinger “Fireborn” perk should allow you to infuse your light into someone’s Ghost and force an instant revive at the cost of draining your super out. And it’d be usable even when revives weren’t normally available, such as in standard PvP. I think that’d be an interesting adjustment.

I've wanted this since last fall. Similar to the Siren in Borderlands. Perhaps it could be an exotic perk.

Here's a twist: Stormcallers have a perk that extends the length of their super if their grenades and melee are full. What if the revive perk only worked if you had full super, grenades and melee, and it drained all three? You could revive a teammate, but at the cost of ALL your abilities. Of course, if that teammate was a sunbreaker, that would be a no-brainer.

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Stormcaller should be able to act as a defibrillator. CLEAR!

by Pyromancy @, discovering fire every week, Wednesday, December 02, 2015, 10:30 (3040 days ago) @ Schedonnardus

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YES!

by Schedonnardus, Texas, Wednesday, December 02, 2015, 13:52 (3040 days ago) @ Pyromancy

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And Now, Young Skywalker...You Will Live!

by Morpheus @, High Charity, Wednesday, December 02, 2015, 15:00 (3040 days ago) @ Pyromancy

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Sunsinger

by squidnh3, Tuesday, December 01, 2015, 21:10 (3040 days ago) @ Beorn

I actually thought this was how it worked when the game launched last year. I think as long as you had to be standing directly on their orb, it would work. Maybe it would have to be both Fireborn and another perk combined?

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