there really is no reason to play Crucible--unless you like it.

Isn't that ideal?

I wish more of Destiny's activities were like that. In Y1 I was often doing activities because I felt like I had to for the good rewards. That's shitty. I don't want to play things that I don't enjoy, but you almost had to. I've never been a fan of Iron Banner, but shit, I better play because otherwise I'm missing out on free Etheric Light. I pity the folks that didn't like Prison of Elders, because they were screwed for getting Etheric Light . . . unless they played something they actively disliked.

Destiny is what it is, but I still feel like it could be vastly better if it was something different (which I know is just an asinine thing to say, and the very sort of thing I usually fight against when people say it). I've come to terms with the fact that I'll never have a max level character. Not because I don't have the skill, but because I don't enjoy grinding for loot. They said they added more avenues to get what you want, but unless you can do the Raid over and over, do IB every time, or play Trials, you're screwed for getting high level gear, and that sucks. I don't have enough time to raid every week, I don't like Iron Banner, and, although I've never done Trials, I don't typically enjoy Crucible in general, so that's probably a bust, too.

TL;DR: I'm glad crucible generally has crappy rewards . . . I don't feel like I'm missing out for mostly just ignoring it.

The second post was stupid.

From two different, back-to-back posts on reddit, in a thread complaining about skill-based matchmaking:

"If you really think about it, there's absolutely no reason to play crucible. No goal, no objective apart from grinding rep. Nothing. No tiers of PvP armour, nothing tied to a certain level of play. It just basic for everyone."

(emphasis mine) This sentence in particular irks me, and is one of the gripes I have with Destiny (and to some extent, gaming in general)- what 'REASON' should there be, aside from "to have fun"?

Yeah, it's nice when there is a little extra incentive to do something, such as a double XP or an emblem or some other cosmetic doodad, but FUN is supposed to be the reason you play anything.

Quote number one just reeks of some sort of entitlement mentality...

Why are you grinding for rep in something? (You need rep to 'X' someone might say) Ok, well why do you want that thing? Destiny has been getting better at giving players different avenues to obtain high level gear to increase light level.... that's the only 'end game' that Destiny has now. So if you don't enjoy Crucible, maybe, I dunno, don't fucking play it?

Am I being too black and white here?

"Sometimes I don't want to have to get sweaty in every game. Without skill based matchmaking, I didn't have to try hard since I was either getting stomped or stomping. Every game now it's like clawing tooth and nail for kills. Just give me an unranked playlist so I can listen to music full blast, sit back in my seat and just have a good time."

I understand what this person is trying to say. I'm not sure what Bungie intended with some of these crucible modes.

• Trials is supposed to be THE competitive playlist. High stakes. Level advantages.
  
• Iron Banner is the same thing, but without limited lives... Level advantages.
  
• General Crucible then is supposed to be.... more social? balanced? No Level advantages.

I guess I do see a bit of a "hole" here then. If I'm a non-serious competitive player (as in, I want to win, but I'm not going to stress about it like I would in the other play modes) then all I really have is vanilla crucible.

Well, skill based MM turns that on it's head then, doesn't it? I would make the argument that what was "vanilla" Destiny is now more like Iron Banner but with a leveled playing field.

So where do the "casual"of casuals go then? It feels like that's where he's going with this.

I understand that people play games (and specifically Destiny) for different reasons than do... but wow. I can't even wrap my brain around these views - and the fact that they came one right after another in a thread makes my head spin.

I'm not going to lie- I dislike (at time of writing) crucible. The meta game is too much to think about for me. I prefer the simplicity of Halo, where I know my shotgun is the same as your shotgun and I don't have to worry about so many variables. Destiny has too much variety in this way, for me. I can empathize with the second player that for a long time, it WAS "getting stomped vs stomping on" for me. Vanilla Destiny was too easy. It lacked the thrill that I get playing Halo MP.

So I should have liked Trials and IB right? Well, I don't have the guns and armor to be competitive in that because I don't play a lot anymore. I can't devote the time required to level up. So for someone like me who NEEDS level advantages to be disabled, the new crucible sounds like a good thing! I'll have closer games, I don't have to worry about light. Good good.

But it still leaves out the casual player, in that sense. They don't have a "social slayer" anymore, a place to dick around with other players. In Halo, we all KNEW the difference in skill\seriousness we'd encounter in Team Slayer vs Social Team Slayer.

Destiny MP kinda lacks that, now. I would expect it to change and see things get re-tooled.

In terms of competitiveness, you've got

Hard - Trials
Medium - IB
Normal - Vanilla
Easy - ????

Really? I think the idea of ranked and unranked playlists would be pretty non-controversial. That second opinion seemed pretty reasonable.

I was actually thinking about the beginning of that quote - not so much his 'solution'. "Without skill based matchmaking, I didn't have to try hard since I was either getting stomped or stomping." I guess I've met him in-game (on my team, when I go in alone), and he makes me sad.

Haha. Yeah. I'll blame that guy, whoever he is, whenever I lose from now on. :)

The no point comment is just plain dumb though... In Bungie style multiplayer. The point is its a test of skill and reflexes and cunning! :)

Having said that, I can't get enough of Crucible. Outside of Trials (and occasionally Iron Banner), I don't think I've grabbed any Crucible bounties since before the Taken King. I don't care about the exp or ranking my stuff up. I go into Crucible with the weapons and armor I like (whether aesthetically or for stomping people), and I have at it. I don't need there to be a lot at stake beyond just wanting to win the game. If I lose, I enjoy staying in the lobby and hoping the other team sticks around for a rematch.

I sort of empathize with poster #2, since I get the desire to want ranked/skill-based gameplay in its own area as opposed to social playlists (there's a big difference in Team Slayer vs. Social Slayer in Halo 3, as an example), but I can't say I've really felt much of a difference playing Crucible pre-revelation of skill-based searches vs. post. It still doesn't even come close to comparing to Trials or Iron Banner, especially since light level is equalized.

Really? I think the idea of ranked and unranked playlists would be pretty non-controversial. That second opinion seemed pretty reasonable.

I was actually thinking about the beginning of that quote - not so much his 'solution'. "Without skill based matchmaking, I didn't have to try hard since I was either getting stomped or stomping." I guess I've met him in-game (on my team, when I go in alone), and he makes me sad.

The thing for me that makes this potentially problematic is the crucible quests and the bounties. If you've got to kill 7 people with headshots using a shitty hand cannon, that suddenly becomes a much more frustrating task when everybody you play against is as good as you. Meaning, you are going to have a hard time. Tons of quests and bounties involve the crucible. Get a couple easy teams and the chaperone is yours. But get matched with your equals? Well now you can't get the gun statistically speaking since you need a 2.0 kd.

Currently, the matchmaking is about making it as competitive as possible. So I'm always going to my league sports game rather than to the local park to play with the guys. The former is almost always competitive, the latter can be super competitive or super casual as the group chooses.

Sometimes I want to play more casually, rather than being on the league sports field. Current matchmaking pushes it in that direction. I'm seeing much less variation both up and down, causing pockets of skill to potentially form, rather than learning from being creamed or being able to show off how good you are. (part of why I like trials, you never know what it'll be like)

Yeah, these guys are both complaining that they're willingly participating in an activity they don't enjoy. At least in TTK you don't *have* to run the raid endlessly hoping for that lucky drop so you can get the one gun that is actually the best gun in PvP if you want to compete in PvP.

This is my feelling, as well. If you aren't having fun - don't do it. Don't run the raid, don't play PvP, don't whatever. Don't Destiny, if it's Destiny that bugs you.

But to be invested enough to read (and comment in) threads devoted to topics like skill-based matchmaking, and STILL feel like there's no reason for you to play...

I can't grok. :(

Really? I think the idea of ranked and unranked playlists would be pretty non-controversial. That second opinion seemed pretty reasonable.

I was actually thinking about the beginning of that quote - not so much his 'solution'. "Without skill based matchmaking, I didn't have to try hard since I was either getting stomped or stomping." I guess I've met him in-game (on my team, when I go in alone), and he makes me sad.

Call of Duty has a "Mercenaries" playlist for people who want this. Everyone is solo, the matchmaking is totally random, and chat between team members isn't allowed. Destiny could definitely benefit from this as being a solo player is a pretty huge disadvantage most of the time in PvP.

Really? I think the idea of ranked and unranked playlists would be pretty non-controversial. That second opinion seemed pretty reasonable.

I was actually thinking about the beginning of that quote - not so much his 'solution'. "Without skill based matchmaking, I didn't have to try hard since I was either getting stomped or stomping." I guess I've met him in-game (on my team, when I go in alone), and he makes me sad.

From two different, back-to-back posts on reddit, in a thread complaining about skill-based matchmaking:

"If you really think about it, there's absolutely no reason to play crucible. No goal, no objective apart from grinding rep. Nothing. No tiers of PvP armour, nothing tied to a certain level of play. It just basic for everyone."

There's a great reason to play crucible. It's called "you enjoy pvp." A game should be fun first, and offer rewards second. If you don't like pvp, don't play those modes. The fact that there are no real rewards for it should make your decision not to play it even easier.

"Sometimes I don't want to have to get sweaty in every game. Without skill based matchmaking, I didn't have to try hard since I was either getting stomped or stomping. Every game now it's like clawing tooth and nail for kills. Just give me an unranked playlist so I can listen to music full blast, sit back in my seat and just have a good time."

I don't get this either. What about his game is preventing him from listening to music and having a good time? I get not wanting to be sweaty in every game, and I agree that the current matchmaking is too limited in terms of player pool on a game by game basis, but getting sweaty is a good thing. I had a game of skirmish last night that we won by 110 points because of a lucky super at 30 seconds to go and then our whole team just hid from the enemy until time ran out. It was crazy fun!

if I had to guess, I'd guess this guy was only going into crucible to do bounties or something, but because the games are close now, he's finding himself focusing on winning instead of ignoring the outcome and playing with sub-par weapons just to finish off his bounties?

I understand that people play games (and specifically Destiny) for different reasons than I do... but wow. I can't even wrap my brain around these views - and the fact that they came one right after another in a thread makes my head spin.

Yeah, these guys are both complaining that they're willingly participating in an activity they don't enjoy. At least in TTK you don't *have* to run the raid endlessly hoping for that lucky drop so you can get the one gun that is actually the best gun in PvP if you want to compete in PvP.