I think I'd honestly rather they kept paid cosmetics separate - I still wouldn't like it, but at least the inherently addictive elements of the game have less influence on your decision to buy them. Not none mind you, but less.

This is the exact scenario those of us who are against micro-transactions wanted to avoid. It wasn't because we were cheap or stingy. It was because it can directly impact the quality of the user experience.

Korny's response makes sense in that case. He disagrees that the user experience is negatively affected by the system where cosmetic items can be purchased rather than "earned." This probably has more to do with with a difference in how a person perceives the value of cosmetic items than any attempt to ignore someone's argument. In this sense, the p2w title of the thread is playing out even in this conversation- hence why I mentioned it.

I care about aesthetics. But I don't think I'll ever pay for this stuff. I certainly won't begrudge someone who does and I won't begrudge bungie for not only offering it as a transaction, but also offering it to all players through normal means. Sure the first hit is free, but its my responsibility to ascertain the value of the item's cost after that hit. The only impact on user experience I have now is to decide the value of taking an alternate route to something that is cosmetic.

Were you meaning to reply to someone else? Or just running the "it's only cosmetic" argument on autopilot?

Have they ever actually said what the Live team does, what other teams who are not the live team are called and how we can delineate which teams have and will worked on each?

We don't know for sure what the other teams are called (I would imagine they either have code names OR something really simple like "Destiny 2 Team"), but they won't talk about those teams much as most companies don't. As far as the responsibilities of the Live Team, if you just search Bungie Destiny Live Team on Google there are a few articles that mention what they worki on, here's an example:

"David Dague, who is also known as Deej, explains that the focus is on the delivery of Sparrow Racing, which goes live on December 8, and the big update for the month of December and that announcements about year two activities will be delivered at a later date, with every new piece of content handled by the live team."

If you watched the stream, then you know that there was no indication at all that the weapons would be in the Steling Treasures - only the armor (which will drop at 3 light).

Still gear for money. Down one more rung on the slippery slope.

Up one more shelf on the mixed metaphor tree.

Oh quiet. Make a like a tree and get outta here.

I'm actually all for Bungie completely focusing on Destiny 2. I just wish they'd quit trying to blow smoke up my ass about all the amazing things they're still doing with Destiny 1.

There is always the implication from fans that making content, or changing things that aren't X means that X is somehow being ignored or put on the back burner. As someone who has worked at several software companies that is rarely (if ever) the case. For one thing this update was primarily conceived and built by the live team, not the Destiny 2 team. There's not actually a scenario where if they put everyone "on" Destiny 2 that it would come out 3 months earlier, or be 20% better, that's not how software development works.

I agree with all of this, but it is based on a lot of guesswork for me. Have they ever actually said what the Live team does, what other teams who are not the live team are called and how we can delineate which teams have and will worked on each? I never much cared, but if they are going to say that Eververse funds one "team" and certain content is distinguished by coming from that "team" I feel like I need to know this info to even understand the updates they post on the blog and to make purchasing decisions.

If you watched the stream, then you know that there was no indication at all that the weapons would be in the Steling Treasures - only the armor (which will drop at 3 light).

Still gear for money. Down one more rung on the slippery slope.

Up one more shelf on the mixed metaphor tree.

I mean, isn't that kinda a bold claim to make? Especially at the end of a topic that is ultimately discussing whether a move by a game dev is yet another small cut keeping people away from a game?

I'd agree. Especially in Destiny's case. All we see is the thousand cuts. It's all anyone ever talks about since Destiny launched. It's a non-stop hissy fit (by the community at large). A lot of it is warranted, but there's a reason this is the only Destiny related place I visit on the internet.

We've got people playing thousands of games of Iron Banner reporting a 1%-2% drop rate for IB gear, and that's just 1 of many examples.

That doesn't seem right at all. (Maybe it was right 5 months ago; my short-term memory is not what it used to be.)

So far, this Iron Banner, I've played 52 games. I've had no weapon drops yet, but I've gotten 6 chests, 2 arms, 1 helmet.

That's WAY higher than 1-2%.

Yeah they made an update in November to fix this Iron Banner issue, I specifically remember them discussing it, and here's the patch notes that mention it. And the relevant text:

Iron Banner
* Increased drop rate for Legendary Gear in the Iron Banner playlist
* Increased Iron Banner reputation gain from games by 20%
* Added a package at Ranks 3 & Rank 5 that grants additional rewards to the player
* Known issue: Some of the items from the Rank 5 package will not be awarded when you open it until you return to orbit
* Added an Iron Banner Ghost Shell that can also drop in the playlist at Rank 5
* Gear that buffs Iron Banner Faction reputation gain now have corresponding perk description and icons
* Fixed an issue where Tempered Buff was not correctly appearing in the Character Screen

We've got people playing thousands of games of Iron Banner reporting a 1%-2% drop rate for IB gear, and that's just 1 of many examples.

That doesn't seem right at all. (Maybe it was right 5 months ago; my short-term memory is not what it used to be.)

So far, this Iron Banner, I've played 52 games. I've had no weapon drops yet, but I've gotten 6 chests, 2 arms, 1 helmet.

That's WAY higher than 1-2%.

It sounds low to me too. I'd need to read through the thread more thoroughly (it's a MASSIVE wall of text). It's possible they're tracking 1%-2% drop rate per item, which sounds closer to my anecdotal experience.

We've got people playing thousands of games of Iron Banner reporting a 1%-2% drop rate for IB gear, and that's just 1 of many examples.

That doesn't seem right at all. (Maybe it was right 5 months ago; my short-term memory is not what it used to be.)

So far, this Iron Banner, I've played 52 games. I've had no weapon drops yet, but I've gotten 6 chests, 2 arms, 1 helmet.

That's WAY higher than 1-2%.

I hear lots of press complain about the F2P-style monetization... but only from those who didn't really play the game. Everyone I talk to who actually spent time with ME3's multiplayer seems to love the way BioWare handled their support of the game, myself included. Yet the buzz around Destiny is constantly negative or at least contentious. I think you already nailed one of the reasons: Many players felt let down by Destiny (even some of those who ultimately love the game). ME3's multiplayer was a happy surprise for the fan base. Most people didn't expect it to be any good, yet it ended up being one of the highlights of the game. But I don't think that is the only reason for the differences in perception.

BioWare never charged a dime for any of the follow-up Multiplayer content. And yet, it was all really good despite being free. Bungie has had more mixed results with the content they've added to Destiny, both paid and free. TTK was the only update that seems to have made the majority of the community happy, at that cost $40-$60 (not that any of the ME3 MP content was anywhere close to the scale of TTK, but you get my point).

There is also the common perception that Destiny is a bit stingy when it comes to giving out loot to the player. We've got people playing thousands of games of Iron Banner reporting a 1%-2% drop rate for IB gear, and that's just 1 of many examples. So I get why some people feel their blood pressure rising at the very suggestion of paying extra money for any kind of loot, cosmetic or not. ME3 didn't have that problem. New gear came easily and often, even without buying the packs. Plus, there wasn't nearly as much gear to acquire in ME3, which I think worked to the game's advantage. Even though the drops were RNG based, the loot pool was small enough that you could get all the gear in the game without spending ludicrous amounts of time grinding. Finally, ME3 had no PvP component... it was purely co-operative. I think any game with a competitive mode will come under extra scrutiny when any whiff of a "pay to win" scenario comes along.

Like you, I spent a decent chunk of money on ME3 microtransactions, but I was getting so much fun and so many hours of enjoyment from it that I was more than happy to throw some love at the developers. I never cared what specific characters or items I got from the packages, because I knew I'd have them all within a month or so.

But the thing was, I was happy to spend the money. I was spending to try and get the new classes early, but each time they released a new set of classes, weapons, and maps I handed over a good $5 to $10 in appreciation of the ongoing support and content. (Remember, the weekly balance updates and all other content was free.)

I've been doing similar with Destiny. I bought the Ghost edition initially because I wanted that physical Ghost. It's my 2nd favorite extra to ever come with a game. (Halsey's Journal being the first, of course.) And, like basically everyone, I paid for The Taken King. But I also pitched in a few dollars for the Sparrow Racing League, and at least the minimum amount for the 2nd Festival of the Lost. Again, not so much because I wanted a blue flame-y mask (I never actually got it) but because it's my way of showing thanks for and hopefully encouraging continued support and updates.

I do agree that whether or not we've crossed a Pay to Win line, it is probably detrimental to the perception of the game any time Bungie does something that causes the discussion to pop back up. Maybe it wouldn't be so much of an issue if it had been in at the start? I'm not going to drag up the sources right now, but the concepts of micro transactions were discussed by Bungie before Destiny's launch. I'm fairly certain that emotes being things we pay for was in the original concept for Destiny as well. Remember the Wizard Ice Bucket Challenge video? It ended with a Guardian performing the Slow Clap emote something like two years before we got access to it...

But getting back to the point, if Destiny had launched with stronger content (like the higher quality mission of The Taken King) and had launched with the micro transactions from the beginning I wonder if people would have been driven away. A few, of course, but I think most would recognize that you couldn't actually Pay to Win and the content of the game (in addition to the always strong movement / gunplay) would have lead most to accept the selling of emotes and reputation boosters and so on and would have caused much less of a stir than this sorta gradual phasing in of additional ways to Pay.

Or, at the very least, we would have had this conversation two years ago and people would made their decisions to stay or leave Destiny by now... :)