It was pretty ridiculous. They knew it was bullshit, we knew it was bullshit. They knew that we knew that it was bullshit. Not admitting it just made everyone involved look unbelievably childish.

The especially bizarre part is that the cover story sort of sounds worse than the reality. The reality was that they made a simple mistake that was fixed in a timely manner; the cover story was that they were deliberately unfair to multiple major portions of their fanbase.

I'd love to see more SRL, though!

and it was always fun to play BxR allowed custom matches with friends.

Just kill me now. I'm not sure you can even imagine how against cheating with friends in custom games with strange rules I am. :p

I only used it in custom games where everyone understood that it was allowed. We never did it that often, though.

Just regular matchmaking for me please. :)

Keep in mind, Halo 2 hit when I was in high school. It was a revelation, and hit at the perfect time. I put more time into online Halo 2 than the rest of the Halo games combined. I joined an HBO clan (Forerunners for life!), and we were all about custom games. We all rolled as pink Elites. We spent a lot of time Warthog jousting, and played a gametype on Blood Gulch where one person used a Wraith while the rest of the people drove around in Warthogs. It was aimless fun with a lot of Warthog jumping and and randomness. And of course, we played tons and tons of Fist Ass Xtreme on Lockout.

Damn, sometimes I really miss the good ol' days of Halo 2. None of the other Halo games ever quite lived up to that.

Best unintended mini-game Destiny had, IMO.

I didn't even care all that much about getting keys, but that race to see how many times I could get that chest open was some of the most fun I've ever had in Destiny.

and it was always fun to play BxR allowed custom matches with friends.

Just kill me now. I'm not sure you can even imagine how against cheating with friends in custom games with strange rules I am. :p

Just regular matchmaking for me please. :)

Some may recall that I'm not much of a fan of Forge either because it lead to random maps that I did not know being constantly rotated into matchmaking.

Now there's something we can agree on! Forge maps in matchmaking was awful. ): There could have at least been a playlist with only default "real" maps.

But the assumption is already wrong. I reported at least a dozen people during the Great Shadow Shot Debacle but did not use the glitch myself. I also never superbounced, sword flew, BxRed or hid outside a map. You're down to at least 99.99999999% and I can't be the only player in all the world to have played fair.

Tone is everything, and I want to preface this post to say that I'm not in attack mode--I'm in total curiosity mode. But before I begin, though, I'd just like to point out that he said if you're a DEVELOPER, you have to ASSUME that if there's an exploit in your game, 100% of the people will use it. He's not saying that 100% of people actually will exploit whatever. It's the assumption from a design standpoint to try to ensure that your game is as non-exploitable as possible.

It seems more fair to say that somebody will exploit an exploit... not that everyone will. Might just be the oddness of language biting us there though. :)

Now, onto my curiosity! You're telling me you literally never superbounced or sword flew or BxRed or hid outside of a map at all ever? Like not even by yourself in a custom game or with one other friend in a custom game? Or are you just saying not in matchmaking or against other people? If you literally never did any of those at any time anywhere at all, that's just crazy to me!

Keep in mind a few things:
1. I got Xbox Live fairly late in Halo 3's life and didn't really play it that much. Reach was my game.
2. I was the kind of person who used an Assault Rifle because the shotgun, sniper rifle, and (Halo 1) pistol felt unfair. Similarly, I didn't use Thorn during its overpowered days. Fair play and beating an opponent without a massive advantage is something I've always done... even when it wasn't cheating in any way and wasn't a smart way to approach an encounter in any way.
(I did use Armor Lock a lot though... that's fine, right? :p )

Superbounced? No. Not that I recall and certainly not intentionally.
Sword Flew. Oh, perhaps at some point in a custom game just to try it. But I generally disliked Custom Games. I like my game rules fair and predictable, you see.
Hid out of a map? Nope. Completely not my style. Every once in a while I fall off the side of a Destiny map into an out of bounds zone that I'm able to recover from... but always by complete accident...

I was similarly VERY much against BxR and superbouncing in-game, especially in competitive play. First of all, Bungie outright said it was cheating. Second, there were ways to beat BxR and BxB, and it was oh so satisfying to turn that around on people (especially in tournaments). Sweet, sweet satisfaction.

But holy cow, for real? Even with all I just said, I TOTALLY used those techniques alone in custom games, with some friends in custom games, and even sometimes when playing "competitively" with friends in custom games just for laughs. As for matchmaking, I only superbounced if someone was using it against me first. You want to bounce onto the roof on Zanzibar? Assuming you don't peek and get sniped by me first, I'm coming up there to destroy you. That's about all I'd do that for.

For the most part, custom games seemed to be for people who no longer wanted to play normal Halo... and I liked playing normal Halo. Some may recall that I'm not much of a fan of Forge either because it lead to random maps that I did not know being constantly rotated into matchmaking.

And there are dozens of developers who have handed out such bans... Including Bungie with Destiny. Idling or actively not participating in a Strike or Crucible, something very easily allowed by the programming of the game, can get you banned from specific activities and eventually all of Destiny. And I absolutely support that.

Yes, but only AFTER they made a statement saying they would do so. And really, that's the heart of the matter, I think.

Now, onto my curiosity! You're telling me you literally never superbounced or sword flew or BxRed or hid outside of a map at all ever? Like not even by yourself in a custom game or with one other friend in a custom game? Or are you just saying not in matchmaking or against other people? If you literally never did any of those at any time anywhere at all, that's just crazy to me!

And, if he truly never did it, he missed a lot of fun in Halo 2. I wasn't as deep into it as a lot of folks, but swordflying out of maps and superbouncing to the top of Zanzibar was fun. Spent so much time swordflying on Headlong, and it was always fun to play BxR allowed custom matches with friends.

Imagine we discussed things that are actually happening vs ones that (probably!) won't.

That, and it'd be a lot easier to talk about legitimately fuzzy cases once we get past the notion that the player is never ever in the wrong...

The fact that my example isn't happening does not make it any less fair of an example, IMO. But fair enough, let's look at an example of something that actually did happen: the Loot cave. Players found an exploit that gave engrams at a faster rate than Bungie intended. How about double or triple dipping for PoE treasure keys? Shoving the Templar off the platform? These are all examples of players going outside the predicted behaviour to achieve unintended results. Not once did Bungie punish those players. They fixed THEIR mistake, laughed it off, and moved on. And that's exactly how those situations and others like them should be handled IMO.

Eh. Using an example that will never happen to make a point is... a bit questionable, but whatevars. :)

It's funny, I think I could find examples of me speaking out against all those exploits you mentioned. I'm on record for calling the loot cave one of the dumbest things I've ever seen players do. I actively spoke out against double dipping the treasure keys, even to people in my fireteams. And I always disliked shortcutting Raids, felt it deprived me of the complete experience.

Now, were any of those ban able offences? Nah. But a lot of that has to do with the way each of those Destiny exploits stayed pretty well within the limits of completely normal gameplay. People shoot into caves at enemies. People throw grenades at bosses. People standing in the Oracle sniper platforms, etc. Purposely crossing a loading zone is slightly more of a stretch, but ultimately it was legitimately driving a Sparrow through playable areas of the maps. This is in contrast to using some physics glitch to force ones self into an area you were not legitimately supposed to be.

To be clear, I have no sympathy for people doing deliberate hacks/mods/network manipulations to gain any form of advantage. But that's not the level of behaviour that we're talking about here. We're talking about players engaging the in-game systems and mechanics in ways that give results beyond what the developers intended. Rules in any videogame are defined by 1 thing and 1 thing only: what does the game allow the player to do. I totally get that these Division players are going outside Ubisoft's intended designs. Ubisoft should fix the problems with their game and move on. I have a huge problem with PUNISHING players for engaging with these workarounds.

You say that rules are defined by one thing... but the history of gaming very easily proves you wrong. Maybe you'd like your one rule to be real, maybe the world would be a better place if it were true, but there are thousands upon thousand of gamers who have been banned for exploits. And there are dozens of developers who have handed out such bans... Including Bungie with Destiny. Idling or actively not participating in a Strike or Crucible, something very easily allowed by the programming of the game, can get you banned from specific activities and eventually all of Destiny. And I absolutely support that.

But the assumption is already wrong. I reported at least a dozen people during the Great Shadow Shot Debacle but did not use the glitch myself. I also never superbounced, sword flew, BxRed or hid outside a map. You're down to at least 99.99999999% and I can't be the only player in all the world to have played fair.

Tone is everything, and I want to preface this post to say that I'm not in attack mode--I'm in total curiosity mode. But before I begin, though, I'd just like to point out that he said if you're a DEVELOPER, you have to ASSUME that if there's an exploit in your game, 100% of the people will use it. He's not saying that 100% of people actually will exploit whatever. It's the assumption from a design standpoint to try to ensure that your game is as non-exploitable as possible.

Now, onto my curiosity! You're telling me you literally never superbounced or sword flew or BxRed or hid outside of a map at all ever? Like not even by yourself in a custom game or with one other friend in a custom game? Or are you just saying not in matchmaking or against other people? If you literally never did any of those at any time anywhere at all, that's just crazy to me!

I was similarly VERY much against BxR and superbouncing in-game, especially in competitive play. First of all, Bungie outright said it was cheating. Second, there were ways to beat BxR and BxB, and it was oh so satisfying to turn that around on people (especially in tournaments). Sweet, sweet satisfaction.

But holy cow, for real? Even with all I just said, I TOTALLY used those techniques alone in custom games, with some friends in custom games, and even sometimes when playing "competitively" with friends in custom games just for laughs. As for matchmaking, I only superbounced if someone was using it against me first. You want to bounce onto the roof on Zanzibar? Assuming you don't peek and get sniped by me first, I'm coming up there to destroy you. That's about all I'd do that for.

You (where "you" applies to anyone reading this conversation) are accepting of slipping through walls and ruining other players' PvP but not murder via spork. Ok, fine. Forget the sporks. Let's dial it back until we find the most extreme thing you will accept and the most mild thing you won't. What is the dividing line or reason that the former is acceptable and the latter isn't? Where and why does "anything and everything" actually end?

It actually ends at the game itself. If the game allows it to be done, it's fair game (at least until the developers make a statement when the exploit is discovered saying, "Starting now, people caught using this exploit will be banned/suspended/etc." Punishing people retroactively isn't a good way to deal with this.

But punishments, preannounced / pre warned punishments are ok. Thus the player takes some of the blame and consequences.

At the highest levels, the consequences of unsportsmanlike conduct (or at least getting caught at being unsportsmanlike) become the most severe. Fines, disqualifications from million dollar prizes, being banned from halls of fame, being kicked out of a competitive activity all together.

Not when it's within the actual rules of the sport being played. See Cody's basketball analogy. Coaches and athletes will use everything to their advantage as long as it's not technically against the rules.

But there are still consequences. You are giving the other team two free, unobstructed shots. More importantly, if a player commits too many fouls they get banned from the game. This is in stark contrast to video game players having zero responsibility and consequences for their actions.

If something a player does isn't fair and isn't right then... it is the developer's fault!? Above, you asked if I was being serious. I now pose that same question.

I'm completely serious. I don't even play The Division, so I have no skin in the game, but this doesn't even sound like that big of a deal. It'd be the equivalent of people being able to get Raid drops without running the raid, and get them multiple times. That's not that big of a deal. It's a video game. If they want to punish players for using the exploit now, after making a statement saying they would do so, then fine, I don't have any issue with that. But punishing them retroactively is a shitty thing to do in my book, especially (as we've covered) the developers themselves have been seen using known exploits.

I mostly agree... It is very hard to justify retroactively punishing for an offense that you the developer failed to prevent.

And that's what I'm really driving at here. I think using this exploit is a crappy thing to do, and I probably wouldn't do it. But I think the mere fact that there is debate about it in this thread means it isn't objectively wrong for folks to have done it. Games will always have bugs, and players will always try to exploit those bugs to their own advantage. And for the most part, folks aren't using this exploit to intentionally be shitty to other players. That's the real difference between this and say Superbouncing and BxR. Those things were primarily used against other players in a competitive environment. Yeah, having gear from this exploit can and will be advantageous against other players in the Dark Zone, but big deal. Give it a month, and player that has just hit level 30 will be in the exact same position against someone who has farmed the Incursion naturally for a month.

I agree this exploit is less in your face unsportsmanlike than something like BxR. I'm much more tolerant of things that can't be used against fair playing players.

Imagine we discussed things that are actually happening vs ones that (probably!) won't.

That, and it'd be a lot easier to talk about legitimately fuzzy cases once we get past the notion that the player is never ever in the wrong...

The fact that my example isn't happening does not make it any less fair of an example, IMO. But fair enough, let's look at an example of something that actually did happen: the Loot cave. Players found an exploit that gave engrams at a faster rate than Bungie intended. How about double or triple dipping for PoE treasure keys? Shoving the Templar off the platform? These are all examples of players going outside the predicted behaviour to achieve unintended results. Not once did Bungie punish those players. They fixed THEIR mistake, laughed it off, and moved on. And that's exactly how those situations and others like them should be handled IMO.

To be clear, I have no sympathy for people doing deliberate hacks/mods/network manipulations to gain any form of advantage. But that's not the level of behaviour that we're talking about here. We're talking about players engaging the in-game systems and mechanics in ways that give results beyond what the developers intended. Rules in any videogame are defined by 1 thing and 1 thing only: what does the game allow the player to do. I totally get that these Division players are going outside Ubisoft's intended designs. Ubisoft should fix the problems with their game and move on. I have a huge problem with PUNISHING players for engaging with these workarounds.

You (where "you" applies to anyone reading this conversation) are accepting of slipping through walls and ruining other players' PvP but not murder via spork. Ok, fine. Forget the sporks. Let's dial it back until we find the most extreme thing you will accept and the most mild thing you won't. What is the dividing line or reason that the former is acceptable and the latter isn't? Where and why does "anything and everything" actually end?

It actually ends at the game itself. If the game allows it to be done, it's fair game (at least until the developers make a statement when the exploit is discovered saying, "Starting now, people caught using this exploit will be banned/suspended/etc." Punishing people retroactively isn't a good way to deal with this.

At the highest levels, the consequences of unsportsmanlike conduct (or at least getting caught at being unsportsmanlike) become the most severe. Fines, disqualifications from million dollar prizes, being banned from halls of fame, being kicked out of a competitive activity all together.

Not when it's within the actual rules of the sport being played. See Cody's basketball analogy. Coaches and athletes will use everything to their advantage as long as it's not technically against the rules.

If something a player does isn't fair and isn't right then... it is the developer's fault!? Above, you asked if I was being serious. I now pose that same question.

I'm completely serious. I don't even play The Division, so I have no skin in the game, but this doesn't even sound like that big of a deal. It'd be the equivalent of people being able to get Raid drops without running the raid, and get them multiple times. That's not that big of a deal. It's a video game. If they want to punish players for using the exploit now, after making a statement saying they would do so, then fine, I don't have any issue with that. But punishing them retroactively is a shitty thing to do in my book, especially (as we've covered) the developers themselves have been seen using known exploits.

And that's what I'm really driving at here. I think using this exploit is a crappy thing to do, and I probably wouldn't do it. But I think the mere fact that there is debate about it in this thread means it isn't objectively wrong for folks to have done it. Games will always have bugs, and players will always try to exploit those bugs to their own advantage. And for the most part, folks aren't using this exploit to intentionally be shitty to other players. That's the real difference between this and say Superbouncing and BxR. Those things were primarily used against other players in a competitive environment. Yeah, having gear from this exploit can and will be advantageous against other players in the Dark Zone, but big deal. Give it a month, and player that has just hit level 30 will be in the exact same position against someone who has farmed the Incursion naturally for a month.

You (where "you" applies to anyone reading this conversation) are accepting of slipping through walls and ruining other players' PvP but not murder via spork. Ok, fine. Forget the sporks. Let's dial it back until we find the most extreme thing you will accept and the most mild thing you won't. What is the dividing line or reason that the former is acceptable and the latter isn't? Where and why does "anything and everything" actually end?