Yes, it's clear to me, too. I used to be a door-to-door salesman when I was young. I learned a lot about life, about people, and about what it means to be a good salesman. (One hint: a good salesman doesn't try to sell to people who don't need or want what they're selling.) I don't think you need or want Destiny. If you have to think about it this much, you shouldn't buy it. You seem to have little interest in the social aspects of the game, which says to me you're not interested in the aspects that make Destiny special. It's not another Halo. Based on your comments, I suspect you want it to be. (That's understandable. Many of us wanted it to be that.) Destiny is a living game best consumed with others, and you've already missed things you can't experience anymore. I think the range of experiences it offers currently is an incredible value for the price, but I don't know if I'd feel that way just based on it's single-player activities. Bungie has made a new game that probably doesn't align with your interests in the same way their older games did. It's fine to walk away.

This was very thoughtful and well said.

Aren't you an advocate for finishing games and setting them down?

When you master them, yes.

Year 2? I never hit 320 with any character, didn't get half of the new exotics, and post-update only play Destiny a handful of hours a week (the only three times that I played it the past couple of weeks were the HUDless Vault of glass (zero loot incentive), some CoO on Xbox, and last night's Oryx challenge and CotE (I only got on because of an invite).

The issue is that we have figured out the game systems. Back in year one, we simply didn't know how to play. Now we do. The element of discovery is gone. You can add more content, but so long as the game systems remain the same, we are already playing the game with a level of knowledge we didn't have year one, and skipping the discovery step. We've mastered the systems essentially, and are just playing through the content.

That is really the essence and fun of any game: learning how to play it.

The solution is unfortunately not adding new content. The solution is an entirely new game system. If Destiny 2 is simply a bunch more addons, you will have the same problem in year 3.

I personally don't consider playing less than several hours a day to be a problem that I want fixed.

Aren't you an advocate for finishing games and setting them down?

Year 2? I never hit 320 with any character, didn't get half of the new exotics, and post-update only play Destiny a handful of hours a week (the only three times that I played it the past couple of weeks were the HUDless Vault of glass (zero loot incentive), some CoO on Xbox, and last night's Oryx challenge and CotE (I only got on because of an invite).

The issue is that we have figured out the game systems. Back in year one, we simply didn't know how to play. Now we do. The element of discovery is gone. You can add more content, but so long as the game systems remain the same, we are already playing the game with a level of knowledge we didn't have year one, and skipping the discovery step. We've mastered the systems essentially, and are just playing through the content.

That is really the essence and fun of any game: learning how to play it.

The solution is unfortunately not adding new content. The solution is an entirely new game system. If Destiny 2 is simply a bunch more addons, you will have the same problem in year 3.

YMMV indeed. I don't think the story content added by TTK is woefully short. The raid, for instance, is much bigger than previous raids. The quest system, and improvements to the so-called grind, make it a different game than it was at release, and that's what your question was, right, comparing it to Destiny at release? It's a different (and better) game now.

Yep, comparing it to Destiny at release was a big part of my question. It was much, much more than a "so-called" grind to me. So even though it's been improved, I'm trying to figure out if it's actually at an acceptable level now. It's hard for me to relate when people say Destiny wasn't even that grindy to begin with.

I'm of the opinion that Destiny is grindy only if you let it be. If I'm doing something I consider a grind (and I'm not getting paid for it or acquiring a new skill), I try to stop doing it. I don't consider grinds fun by definition. When I'm not having fun, I stop. If you borrowed a copy long enough to play the original story, and perhaps experience a bit of that first plateau in progression that existed in Destiny 1.0, congrats, you experienced what is generally agreed to be the worst version of Destiny. The narrative is much improved, and the plateaus in progression much shorter, unless you're one of those people who obsess over not being at max light. (I understand the drive to get there, but I don't relate to the desire to get there ASAP, especially since getting close is good enough for all practical purposes. If I don't get within spitting distance of 335 until the week before the fall expansion comes out, that's perfectly fine with me. I like Destiny better when I feel like I don't lose out when I put it down for a while. That's how I feel now.)

Check my heat-map:

Year 1 of Destiny, I was the first person here who had every single exotic and all characters at 30. I played 3-7 hours a day. I loved the grind, and once I had everything, I continued to play because I loved the game. In fact, I enjoyed it so much that I completely started over by buying it on Xbox, and then got all of those characters maxed out.

Year 2? I never hit 320 with any character, didn't get half of the new exotics, and post-update only play Destiny a handful of hours a week (the only three times that I played it the past couple of weeks were the HUDless Vault of glass (zero loot incentive), some CoO on Xbox, and last night's Oryx challenge and CotE (I only got on because of an invite). Do I enjoy Destiny less in Year 2? Not at all (heck, I'm even happier with my Warlocks post-nerfs), I just have zero desire to grind for anything. When I play it, I pop a 3-of-coins for luck, and focus on fun. The game is lots of fun on its own merits, and I haven't ever felt like I'm behind my friends (or like I can't participate in any event). I think the game is better for that, and while I'm still a huge fan of the grind, I know that most folks are probably not, so Destiny 1.0 was definitely a bad game for them, but I feel that the current Destiny is the ideal Destiny for them.

I agree with other posters, though--the game was worth it at launch. Bungie nailed the gameplay, and the gameplay is the thing. Destiny didn't deliver in some ways that I'd come to expect Bungie games to deliver, but it still delivers the best co-op experience I've ever had. If that's not your thing, and you're looking for an engrossing single-player experience, play Reach. (I played a level the other night on a whim, and I'm convinced, it's the best game overall that Bungie has released. It should be remembered though, as the culmination of everything Bungie learned about making Halo games. They're still learning to make Destiny.) Destiny delivers a different experience, and despite its shortcomings, I've never considered it to be not worth buying.

I loved Destiny at launch, but being a huge Warframe fan going in, all of Destiny's shortcomings have stood out like a sore arm, and have only gotten worse as WF has made significant improvements/additions by the month, while Destiny has taken far too long to get the wheels chugging. With that in mind, I've never found Destiny to be less than worth the price of admission, because the gameplay and social aspect are the main draws, and it does both extremely well (which is why we're happily running completely obsolete content for fun).
Above all else, Destiny is a game where you should hop on with a group of friends and have fun. If you go at it solo, you're going to have a bad time all around (just ask those lone wolves during Iron Banner's Rift games).

That's interesting to me that you like Reach / the Reach campaign so much. It was my least favorite of the Bungie Halo games (still miles better than Halo 4/5, though). I do very much agree with your point that they're still learning to make Destiny, which is why trying to figure out the current state of things.

And they've made a lot of progress. Let me be clear: I didn't say Reach had the best campaign. I said it was the best game overall. I think it is.

We all know that ODST was the best campaign, but I agree that Reach was the best package. Everything from the art to the Bnet integration was a huge and near-perfect package that nobody has quite been able to replicate.

It's clear to me that you and I look for different things when considering if a game "worth it". So even though I can't really relate to your post, I appreciate the input nonetheless. :)

Yes, it's clear to me, too. I used to be a door-to-door salesman when I was young. I learned a lot about life, about people, and about what it means to be a good salesman. (One hint: a good salesman doesn't try to sell to people who don't need or want what they're selling.) I don't think you need or want Destiny. If you have to think about it this much, you shouldn't buy it. You seem to have little interest in the social aspects of the game, which says to me you're not interested in the aspects that make Destiny special. It's not another Halo. Based on your comments, I suspect you want it to be. (That's understandable. Many of us wanted it to be that.) Destiny is a living game best consumed with others, and you've already missed things you can't experience anymore. I think the range of experiences it offers currently is an incredible value for the price, but I don't know if I'd feel that way just based on it's single-player activities. Bungie has made a new game that probably doesn't align with your interests in the same way their older games did. It's fine to walk away.

+1

YMMV indeed. I don't think the story content added by TTK is woefully short. The raid, for instance, is much bigger than previous raids. The quest system, and improvements to the so-called grind, make it a different game than it was at release, and that's what your question was, right, comparing it to Destiny at release? It's a different (and better) game now.

Yep, comparing it to Destiny at release was a big part of my question. It was much, much more than a "so-called" grind to me. So even though it's been improved, I'm trying to figure out if it's actually at an acceptable level now. It's hard for me to relate when people say Destiny wasn't even that grindy to begin with.

I'm of the opinion that Destiny is grindy only if you let it be. If I'm doing something I consider a grind (and I'm not getting paid for it or acquiring a new skill), I try to stop doing it. I don't consider grinds fun by definition. When I'm not having fun, I stop. If you borrowed a copy long enough to play the original story, and perhaps experience a bit of that first plateau in progression that existed in Destiny 1.0, congrats, you experienced what is generally agreed to be the worst version of Destiny. The narrative is much improved, and the plateaus in progression much shorter, unless you're one of those people who obsess over not being at max light. (I understand the drive to get there, but I don't relate to the desire to get there ASAP, especially since getting close is good enough for all practical purposes. If I don't get within spitting distance of 335 until the week before the fall expansion comes out, that's perfectly fine with me. I like Destiny better when I feel like I don't lose out when I put it down for a while. That's how I feel now.)

I agree with other posters, though--the game was worth it at launch. Bungie nailed the gameplay, and the gameplay is the thing. Destiny didn't deliver in some ways that I'd come to expect Bungie games to deliver, but it still delivers the best co-op experience I've ever had. If that's not your thing, and you're looking for an engrossing single-player experience, play Reach. (I played a level the other night on a whim, and I'm convinced, it's the best game overall that Bungie has released. It should be remembered though, as the culmination of everything Bungie learned about making Halo games. They're still learning to make Destiny.) Destiny delivers a different experience, and despite its shortcomings, I've never considered it to be not worth buying.

That's interesting to me that you like Reach / the Reach campaign so much. It was my least favorite of the Bungie Halo games (still miles better than Halo 4/5, though). I do very much agree with your point that they're still learning to make Destiny, which is why trying to figure out the current state of things.

And they've made a lot of progress. Let me be clear: I didn't say Reach had the best campaign. I said it was the best game overall. I think it is.

It's clear to me that you and I look for different things when considering if a game "worth it". So even though I can't really relate to your post, I appreciate the input nonetheless. :)

Yes, it's clear to me, too. I used to be a door-to-door salesman when I was young. I learned a lot about life, about people, and about what it means to be a good salesman. (One hint: a good salesman doesn't try to sell to people who don't need or want what they're selling.) I don't think you need or want Destiny. If you have to think about it this much, you shouldn't buy it. You seem to have little interest in the social aspects of the game, which says to me you're not interested in the aspects that make Destiny special. It's not another Halo. Based on your comments, I suspect you want it to be. (That's understandable. Many of us wanted it to be that.) Destiny is a living game best consumed with others, and you've already missed things you can't experience anymore. I think the range of experiences it offers currently is an incredible value for the price, but I don't know if I'd feel that way just based on it's single-player activities. Bungie has made a new game that probably doesn't align with your interests in the same way their older games did. It's fine to walk away.

if you're more concerned about loot than play experience

I don't currently care about loot, but I am worried Bungie's psychological tricks will trick me into caring (even if I'm aware it's happening). I'm only half joking.

I totally hear ya. As I play I oscillate between chasing loot & doing things for fun. Some evenings it's one, other evenings it's the other. Sometimes the two are one and the same, and that's a great thing when they line up. Most recently we were speed running the Prison of Elders with Slycrel (he wanted to get some PoE only drops), and I had a LOT of fun trying trying different strategies and getting better & faster all while chatting . I will say this, I wish loot played a diminished role in Destiny, or at least a smaller skinner box (aka psychological tricks).

And I see I neglected to hit "Submit" on this post last week. heh. Might as well post it now.

It sounds like enough content has been added to get a good bang-to-buck ratio now (because, yeah, that ratio was way too low for me in the beginning). I'm still worried about grind (and to a lesser extent, future DLC at full price).

There is still plenty of "grind" in late-game Destiny, if you choose to look at that way (although it seems to keep getting better in that regard). But I think TTK is worth it, regardless. You can play through The Dark Below, House of Wolves, and Taken King content, do the King's Fall raid, and then quit and have gotten your money's worth, in my opinion. It's basically what I did, honestly, although I'm starting to pick it up and play again in the last week or so.

This isn't really helpful to you in a 'It's better/worse/whatever than it used to be' way... I just wanted to make sure you understood that Kahzgul's anecdote probably applies more to Trials than to regular Crucible. ;)

...Don't you think that's a little bit presumptuous on your part?

I just did a cursory glance over at Kahzgul's service record, and while he plays a fair amount of Trials, there's plenty of Rift, Rumble, salvage, and all other manner of gametypes played in the last couple of months.

I mean, maybe through private conversations with him you've gotten the impression that that's all he plays, but it doesn't seem to be the case...?

It came from some misunderstandings the last time the topic of lag came up; I couldn't understand why his experience was so different than mine, and after some further discussion, it became clear that the biggest difference was that he was playing a lot of Trials, and I wasn't playing any.

I saw another post from him today suggesting that he's played a bunch of other gametypes - but that was posted after my followup.

Yep, it's presumptuous. Yep, I'm probably wrong. And yep, his experience is still significantly different than mine.

Yeah, upon further inspection, it does appear that he plays more Trials than everything else put together, so I totally understand where you were coming from now.

This isn't really helpful to you in a 'It's better/worse/whatever than it used to be' way... I just wanted to make sure you understood that Kahzgul's anecdote probably applies more to Trials than to regular Crucible. ;)

...Don't you think that's a little bit presumptuous on your part?

I just did a cursory glance over at Kahzgul's service record, and while he plays a fair amount of Trials, there's plenty of Rift, Rumble, salvage, and all other manner of gametypes played in the last couple of months.

I mean, maybe through private conversations with him you've gotten the impression that that's all he plays, but it doesn't seem to be the case...?

It came from some misunderstandings the last time the topic of lag came up; I couldn't understand why his experience was so different than mine, and after some further discussion, it became clear that the biggest difference was that he was playing a lot of Trials, and I wasn't playing any.

I saw another post from him today suggesting that he's played a bunch of other gametypes - but that was posted after my followup.

Yep, it's presumptuous. Yep, I'm probably wrong. And yep, his experience is still significantly different than mine.

This isn't really helpful to you in a 'It's better/worse/whatever than it used to be' way... I just wanted to make sure you understood that Kahzgul's anecdote probably applies more to Trials than to regular Crucible. ;)

...Don't you think that's a little bit presumptuous on your part?

I just did a cursory glance over at Kahzgul's service record, and while he plays a fair amount of Trials, there's plenty of Rift, Rumble, salvage, and all other manner of gametypes played in the last couple of months.

I mean, maybe through private conversations with him you've gotten the impression that that's all he plays, but it doesn't seem to be the case...?

Halo 3 beta
Halo 3

Ain't that the truth. Trip mines were so fun in the beta. (I agree with your whole MP ordering, too.)

House of Wolves and Taken King both improved the game from a story perspective. TK almost has a Halo-like progression with decent cutscenes.

Considering that right now $36 gets you not only the base game you've already played (but is required) but also Dark Below and its raid, House of Wolves, Taken King and its raid including the new location (Dreadnought) and now the April Update with the new version of Prison of Elders arena battles from HoW... I'd say it's good value for money if you liked Destiny but just thought that $60 for the game and $20 for expansions was not enough bang for the buck.

It sounds like enough content has been added to get a good bang-to-buck ratio now (because, yeah, that ratio was way too low for me in the beginning). I'm still worried about grind (and to a lesser extent, future DLC at full price).

if you're more concerned about loot than play experience

I don't currently care about loot, but I am worried about Bungie's psychological tricks will trick me into caring (even if I'm aware it's happening). I'm only half joking.

Also, at higher light levels you can withstand more damage. Not a ton more, but it's definitely noticeable in certain instances. So the Oryx fight is slightly more forgiving, albeit still very team dependant.

I think he might have been referring to VoG and CE, but those raids are still a ton of fun even if they don't drop endgame relevant (PvE at least) gear.

Thanks for the anecdote. It's hard to find information about about any netcode changes made in the April update, but I did find some stuff about patches in January and March. I wonder if those things + the April update resulted in things being a lot better.

Kahzgul mostly plays Trials, which is worlds different (in most aspects) from other crucible modes.

In regular crucible, there's still lag - there's less cheating (I think), mostly because who the hell cares?, but if I play 5-10 games in a night, there'll be at least one in which someone with a seriously bad connection makes things wonky for everyone. It's rarely enough to ruin the game (unless you're really sensitive to that kind of thing - and some of the people I play with are), but it's definitely wonky.

I'm not even sure I could say it's really different from how it was 6 months ago, on average. (I see bigger swings in quality-of-game-life from the shifts from connection-based matchmaking to skill-based matchmaking and back than I do from the Damage Referee stuff., personally.)

This isn't really helpful to you in a 'It's better/worse/whatever than it used to be' way... I just wanted to make sure you understood that Kahzgul's anecdote probably applies more to Trials than to regular Crucible. ;)

The only reason to be concerned about the raids being worthwhile is if you're more concerned about loot than play experience, and even then if you hit the raid at the right point in your character's progression you can still get some fun loots from it.

We ran a full HM KF raid last night with a guy who'd never done HM before (he was 311 when we started). He was 318 when we killed Oryx.

It's a pretty lucrative couple of hours, no matter WHERE you are (well, if it's HM, you should be at least at 311 to begin, but 290 is fine for NM), but at lower levels in the range, it's super-lucrative.