The high point of my PvP career was Raga incredulously asking me how the hell I made that shallow-angle-into-B Nova shot on Black Shield.

Heh. I seem to be the high point of several people's Destiny experience... :p

Crazy. That second clip is certainly clear. 680 on the first two shots, 1360 on the last one, so 2x damage with the precision hit. Good research!

It's funny cause I was just playing and I noticed that I one shotted the knights. And I was like... that's not supposed to happen! I HAVE PROOF!! record record record!

I'm going to keep leveling up my Hunter and see what kind of a bonus I get for yellow guys. Also, I wonder if you can get precision shots through a Phalanx shield? Talk about good aiming :-)

Nova Bomb over Stormtrance.

Ohai, did you call me?

Seriously, though, while I know Stormtrance is more OP, I'd rather have a long-range Super. By a long shot. Pun somewhat intended.

The high point of my PvP career was Raga incredulously asking me how the hell I made that shallow-angle-into-B Nova shot on Black Shield.

I wish there was an ability for Hammers that allows you to throw them with no arc like the nova bomb ability. Then I can snipe with hammers. There are have been sooooo many times I've wanted to throw a hammer and there is a stupid door frame in the way. Long hallways and low ceilings are curses to Sunbreakers.

I am the worst with shadowshot. I stand in a doorway, see three guys on the other side, fire shadowshot, and hit the stupid doorway because my hunter inexplicably jumps 3 feet into the air. Stoopid huntards.

Recently started leveling my Gunslinger up (two IBs ago, IIRC). It has given me a whole new perspective on Golden Gun. It used to feel cheap and OP in PvP, somewhat useless in PvE.

I can now see it is a very skill-oriented Super in PvP (give or take a few lag-induced hit-detection shenanigans) and that spitting on the TV is more useful than it in PvE.

PS: I love these knives more than Bloom on my Voidwalker. And that's saying something.

So I finally started leveling up my Baby Hunter yesterday. And I have found out two things already:

1. Knives are a lot of fun. And they are both really easy to precision kill with and hard. Also it's impossible to freaking hit a vex juice box with them!

2. Golden gun does indeed do precision damage, it just doesn't show a yellow number. I recorded two examples :-)

My only two examples are on unarmored knights, but. It's pretty obvious I hit a precision shot with the GG.

Crazy. That second clip is certainly clear. 680 on the first two shots, 1360 on the last one, so 2x damage with the precision hit. Good research!

Nova Bomb over Stormtrance.

Ohai, did you call me?

Seriously, though, while I know Stormtrance is more OP, I'd rather have a long-range Super. By a long shot. Pun somewhat intended.

The high point of my PvP career was Raga incredulously asking me how the hell I made that shallow-angle-into-B Nova shot on Black Shield.

I wish there was an ability for Hammers that allows you to throw them with no arc like the nova bomb ability. Then I can snipe with hammers. There are have been sooooo many times I've wanted to throw a hammer and there is a stupid door frame in the way. Long hallways and low ceilings are curses to Sunbreakers.

Recently started leveling my Gunslinger up (two IBs ago, IIRC). It has given me a whole new perspective on Golden Gun. It used to feel cheap and OP in PvP, somewhat useless in PvE.

I can now see it is a very skill-oriented Super in PvP (give or take a few lag-induced hit-detection shenanigans) and that spitting on the TV is more useful than it in PvE.

PS: I love these knives more than Bloom on my Voidwalker. And that's saying something.

So I finally started leveling up my Baby Hunter yesterday. And I have found out two things already:

1. Knives are a lot of fun. And they are both really easy to precision kill with and hard. Also it's impossible to freaking hit a vex juice box with them!

2. Golden gun does indeed do precision damage, it just doesn't show a yellow number. I recorded two examples :-)

My only two examples are on unarmored knights, but. It's pretty obvious I hit a precision shot with the GG.

I can now see it is a very skill-oriented Super in PvP (give or take a few lag-induced hit-detection shenanigans) and that spitting on the TV is more useful than it in PvE.

PS: I love these knives more than Bloom on my Voidwalker. And that's saying something.

Nova Bomb over Stormtrance.

Ohai, did you call me?

Seriously, though, while I know Stormtrance is more OP, I'd rather have a long-range Super. By a long shot. Pun somewhat intended.

The high point of my PvP career was Raga incredulously asking me how the hell I made that shallow-angle-into-B Nova shot on Black Shield.

and I think golden gun *at least* needs a PvE buff

But how would you do that? I mean giving it more damage would put it as one of the few supers that can kill armored guys in an ult as it's basic attribute. Which personally if there is a super that could do that it would make sense that the GG could.

Maybe this?

Yeah, but then you would have to make that PvE specific because that would be way to OP in PvP and I highly doubt Bungie would do that :-)

They already have perks, albeit on armor (weapons?), that trigger when killing minions of darkness, why not the same for a super's perk? (or maybe that could be the perk for an exotic).

and I think golden gun *at least* needs a PvE buff

But how would you do that? I mean giving it more damage would put it as one of the few supers that can kill armored guys in an ult as it's basic attribute. Which personally if there is a super that could do that it would make sense that the GG could.

Maybe this?

Yeah, but then you would have to make that PvE specific because that would be way to OP in PvP and I highly doubt Bungie would do that :-)

and I think golden gun *at least* needs a PvE buff

But how would you do that? I mean giving it more damage would put it as one of the few supers that can kill armored guys in an ult as it's basic attribute. Which personally if there is a super that could do that it would make sense that the GG could.

Maybe this?

When I think of golden gun in PvE I think of it as being the best super for taking out strong armored enemies. Isn't it the super that does the most damage to them?

Uh, no? Ran a Vanguard Heroic SABER strike last Friday as 330 Hunter and a red-bar Servitor wouldn't die to a full Golden Gun. Hell, Phalanxes on this week's Challenge of Elder didn't die to a single shot.

Is that even with a precision shot? Also, I don't think servitors die to a FoH either though. They might die to 3-4 hammers. As for the the Phalanxes, it takes like 3-4 hammers for them too, which is only helpful because the hammer has splash which can kill 3 phalanxes with a super. However, I'm betting that 3 precision gold gun shots does more damage than hitting a boss with 5-6 hammers. I haven't done the numbers, or even used the golden gun before... but just my guesstimation :-)

There is no precision damage boost to golden gun. It does less damage than a sniper rifle, and that's really all you need to know about it.

Significantly less. I was playing CoE last night, and my 1kys did 12k/shot, while the golden gun did less than 8k (on the boss).

I ended up using it on redbar taken, because at least I generated a few orbs for my teammates.

I get it, you think hunters are OP because you played bladedancer once. But I think you're missing the entire point of my argument.

I've actually never played a hunter in PvP before :-) I just have played against them. A Lot. And I never said they were OP.

I'm also going to take stormcallers out the the equation for the rest of this debate because I totally agree that stormcallers are pretty much amazing at everything.

I just ran around with sunbreaker and stormcaller and their supers are grossly more powerful than their hunter counterparts. My argument isn't that golden gun can't kill people. My argument is that golden gun sucks balls compared to hammer of sol.

I agree that Sunbreakers have the potential to get more kills. But I would argue, at least in every time I've played them, that sunbreakers don't actually get that many kills. For several reasons:
1. Their super cue is much more noticeable
2. It's easier to run from/dodge a hammer throw than a golden gun shot
3. against other supers, it takes two hammers that fire really slow to kill

My argument isn't that blade dancers can't kill people. My argument is that stormcaller is better in every conceivable way than bladedancer.

I completely agree with you on this, with the exception that bladedancers have a little more tankiness.

Are you disagreeing with those statements?

Some, yes.

Do you think 7 hammers which explode and track is less powerful than 3 golden gun shots?

For one, 7 hammer shots is if you start throwing upon activating the ultimate and never stopping. I don't know how long a hunter has to wait before he loses a GG shot, but I would say a titan loses a hammer every 2-3 seconds (it's hard to say in the heat of battle, I haven't checked). But to answer you original question, that hard to say what is more "powerful" that is purely dependent on the situation. Hammers are more powerful if you have guys clustered, if guys aren't running away from you, if it's a smaller map or if there aren't many sniping lanes. There are lots of cases where hammers are just plain terrible at. One of those cases is Hammer vs GG.

Do you think a mini fist of havok aoe blast followed by ranged attacks that chain automatically and a character that moves faster than the fastest running character is less powerful than melee range, single target attacks from a character that moves at his normal speed?

I'm assuming you are talking about Stormcaller vs a Bladedancer. If so, I totally agree with you.

PvP aside, do you think a golden gun shot should be unable to kill a red health wizard?

Nope.

Do you think three golden gun blasts (the entire super) should not be able to kill a single yellow health bar phalanx while dealing zero damage to any other enemy?

No, but there are also few supers that can actually do that.

Do you think successfully landing the shots should generate zero orbs for your team because no enemies died?

Yes, because to change that would seriously brake the orb generating mechanic. I really wish SunBreakers would generate more orbs, but it's actually not easy to generate orbs with a Sunbreaker.

For the record: I think sunbreaker should be considered the gold standard for super balance. It feels super but it doesn't feel cheap. I think nova bomb and fist of havok are fine. I think defender bubble, sunsinger self-res, and shadowshot are all fine as well. But I really think stormcaller needs to be nerfed

I agree.

and I think golden gun *at least* needs a PvE buff

But how would you do that? I mean giving it more damage would put it as one of the few supers that can kill armored guys in an ult as it's basic attribute. Which personally if there is a super that could do that it would make sense that the GG could.

(and I'd like it if the duration lasted longer or you could fire more shots during that duration)

See, I'm on the fence with this. I think GG is not great compared to Stormcaller and SunBreakers in terms of mass killing. However, like FoH, I think it's a great counter super for duration supers. In fact, I think it's the best super for that. Fist of Panic is great, but it's only really good for killing bladedancers or stopping a revive in trials. GG has it's place and it's REALLY good at it. I've finally come to terms with the bubble. It's really good at what it does and really sub par at other things.

and I think bladedancer needs a PvE buff as well. If they ever figure out how to fix melee hit detection on blade dancer, it will be fine for PvP, but the hit detection has been broken since 2.0 and the latest fix made it different, but not better.

I can't speak for Bladedancers in PvE but I will say, bladedancers have NEVER had a problem killing me in PvP. And I've tried everything to get away from them. Running, jumping, even twilight garrisoning. But again, I will say, I've never played a bladedancer in PvP so I really don't know what it's like to be on the other side.

Please go play as a hunter for a bit. It will really help you to get perspective on these supers. My initial post was in reaction to having finally leveled up and played my titan and warlock, and it's much easier to get a sense of the abilities when you walk a mile in those shoes.

Also, a bit more info:

So golden gun lasts for 3 shots or 10 seconds, whichever happens first.

Also, golden gun will not kill a titan who has a juggernaut shield up.

I get it, you think hunters are OP because you played bladedancer once. But I think you're missing the entire point of my argument.

I've actually never played a hunter in PvP before :-) I just have played against them. A Lot. And I never said they were OP.

I'm also going to take stormcallers out the the equation for the rest of this debate because I totally agree that stormcallers are pretty much amazing at everything.

I just ran around with sunbreaker and stormcaller and their supers are grossly more powerful than their hunter counterparts. My argument isn't that golden gun can't kill people. My argument is that golden gun sucks balls compared to hammer of sol.

I agree that Sunbreakers have the potential to get more kills. But I would argue, at least in every time I've played them, that sunbreakers don't actually get that many kills. For several reasons:
1. Their super cue is much more noticeable
2. It's easier to run from/dodge a hammer throw than a golden gun shot
3. against other supers, it takes two hammers that fire really slow to kill

My argument isn't that blade dancers can't kill people. My argument is that stormcaller is better in every conceivable way than bladedancer.

I completely agree with you on this, with the exception that bladedancers have a little more tankiness.

Are you disagreeing with those statements?

Some, yes.

Do you think 7 hammers which explode and track is less powerful than 3 golden gun shots?

For one, 7 hammer shots is if you start throwing upon activating the ultimate and never stopping. I don't know how long a hunter has to wait before he loses a GG shot, but I would say a titan loses a hammer every 2-3 seconds (it's hard to say in the heat of battle, I haven't checked). But to answer you original question, that hard to say what is more "powerful" that is purely dependent on the situation. Hammers are more powerful if you have guys clustered, if guys aren't running away from you, if it's a smaller map or if there aren't many sniping lanes. There are lots of cases where hammers are just plain terrible at. One of those cases is Hammer vs GG.

Do you think a mini fist of havok aoe blast followed by ranged attacks that chain automatically and a character that moves faster than the fastest running character is less powerful than melee range, single target attacks from a character that moves at his normal speed?

I'm assuming you are talking about Stormcaller vs a Bladedancer. If so, I totally agree with you.

PvP aside, do you think a golden gun shot should be unable to kill a red health wizard?

Nope.

Do you think three golden gun blasts (the entire super) should not be able to kill a single yellow health bar phalanx while dealing zero damage to any other enemy?

No, but there are also few supers that can actually do that.

Do you think successfully landing the shots should generate zero orbs for your team because no enemies died?

Yes, because to change that would seriously brake the orb generating mechanic. I really wish SunBreakers would generate more orbs, but it's actually not easy to generate orbs with a Sunbreaker.

For the record: I think sunbreaker should be considered the gold standard for super balance. It feels super but it doesn't feel cheap. I think nova bomb and fist of havok are fine. I think defender bubble, sunsinger self-res, and shadowshot are all fine as well. But I really think stormcaller needs to be nerfed

I agree.

and I think golden gun *at least* needs a PvE buff

But how would you do that? I mean giving it more damage would put it as one of the few supers that can kill armored guys in an ult as it's basic attribute. Which personally if there is a super that could do that it would make sense that the GG could.

(and I'd like it if the duration lasted longer or you could fire more shots during that duration)

See, I'm on the fence with this. I think GG is not great compared to Stormcaller and SunBreakers in terms of mass killing. However, like FoH, I think it's a great counter super for duration supers. In fact, I think it's the best super for that. Fist of Panic is great, but it's only really good for killing bladedancers or stopping a revive in trials. GG has it's place and it's REALLY good at it. I've finally come to terms with the bubble. It's really good at what it does and really sub par at other things.

and I think bladedancer needs a PvE buff as well. If they ever figure out how to fix melee hit detection on blade dancer, it will be fine for PvP, but the hit detection has been broken since 2.0 and the latest fix made it different, but not better.

I can't speak for Bladedancers in PvE but I will say, bladedancers have NEVER had a problem killing me in PvP. And I've tried everything to get away from them. Running, jumping, even twilight garrisoning. But again, I will say, I've never played a bladedancer in PvP so I really don't know what it's like to be on the other side.

I just ran around with sunbreaker and stormcaller and their supers are grossly more powerful than their hunter counterparts. My argument isn't that golden gun can't kill people. My argument is that golden gun sucks balls compared to hammer of sol. My argument isn't that blade dancers can't kill people. My argument is that stormcaller is better in every conceivable way than bladedancer.

Are you disagreeing with those statements? Do you think 7 hammers which explode and track is less powerful than 3 golden gun shots? Do you think a mini fist of havok aoe blast followed by ranged attacks that chain automatically and a character that moves faster than the fastest running character is less powerful than melee range, single target attacks from a character that moves at his normal speed?

PvP aside, do you think a golden gun shot should be unable to kill a red health wizard? Do you think three golden gun blasts (the entire super) should not be able to kill a single yellow health bar phalanx while dealing zero damage to any other enemy? Do you think successfully landing the shots should generate zero orbs for your team because no enemies died?

For the record: I think sunbreaker should be considered the gold standard for super balance. It feels super but it doesn't feel cheap. I think nova bomb and fist of havok are fine. I think defender bubble, sunsinger self-res, and shadowshot are all fine as well. But I really think stormcaller needs to be nerfed and I think golden gun *at least* needs a PvE buff (and I'd like it if the duration lasted longer or you could fire more shots during that duration) and I think bladedancer needs a PvE buff as well. If they ever figure out how to fix melee hit detection on blade dancer, it will be fine for PvP, but the hit detection has been broken since 2.0 and the latest fix made it different, but not better.

When I think of golden gun in PvE I think of it as being the best super for taking out strong armored enemies. Isn't it the super that does the most damage to them?

Uh, no? Ran a Vanguard Heroic SABER strike last Friday as 330 Hunter and a red-bar Servitor wouldn't die to a full Golden Gun. Hell, Phalanxes on this week's Challenge of Elder didn't die to a single shot.

Is that even with a precision shot? Also, I don't think servitors die to a FoH either though. They might die to 3-4 hammers. As for the the Phalanxes, it takes like 3-4 hammers for them too, which is only helpful because the hammer has splash which can kill 3 phalanxes with a super. However, I'm betting that 3 precision gold gun shots does more damage than hitting a boss with 5-6 hammers. I haven't done the numbers, or even used the golden gun before... but just my guesstimation :-)

There is no precision damage boost to golden gun. It does less damage than a sniper rifle, and that's really all you need to know about it.

O really? I thought it was the only super that could get precision damage.

I am sorry to say that you were misinformed.

I did think of one nice thing, which is golden gun hurts phalanxes through their shields. That's something, I guess.