They've been mighty fun shooting.

I laughed because Cody put those there so when he runs the raid once and doesn't get literally every drop he can still complain about the grind.

But how close were you to 320 before the update? I'm not trying to poke holes, just legitimately curious. I have only run the raid a few times and before the update I was only at 312. Which is more than enough to do anything, but still wasn't near max level.

I was 318 before the update.

Honestly though, the spread of weapons used is much wider than it used to be, and most of the people I play with who are playing to the meta are usually looking to pull past in a competitive sense. I perform better when I just play to "do neat things" and so actually usually do worse when I try to play to the meta. Which has led to some abysmal performances.

However, even in high level play "feel" is really important. That is why I like Doom of Chelchis. I hit with it more often, more reliably, and more frequently than most Scouts I use. And that's why I keep any weapon. Other than Quillim' Terminus none of the KF Raid weapons scream amazing, but I have good luck with using them because they "feel" right. Same reason I rocked Atheon's Epilogue and Dr. Nope for so long in Year one.

A lot of the metagaming doesn't impact me. Even if I'm playing the higher tier activities. Usually because I perform better with weapons that have the right feel compared to the numerically superior ones. (Doom of Chelchis/Conviction II made for the last "fun" Trials I played)

I'm totally with you when it comes to "feel", up to a point. I think finding a weapon that suits your personal timing and rhythm is a big part of any shooter. But I also find I eventually hit a wall while taking that approach.

Maybe it's just luck, maybe my perception is skewed, or maybe I'm in an awkward spot on the SBMM curve, but I frequently find myself going up against VERY GOOD PvP players in the crucible. Players who have min-maxed the heck out of their gear and subclass, and play with lethal efficiency. At a point, "feel" just isn't enough against those players. I'm not speaking hypothetically, it has literally been my experience with the game. I played for ages using the guns I felt most comfortable with, and then Thorn & Hawkmoon happened. It didn't matter how good I was with my favorite guns; My enemy and I would start firing at the same time, I'd land every shot, and then I'd die before I could finish them off. Unfortunately, Destiny still has a short list of primary weapons that will kill you faster than any other primary weapons. The difference might be slim, but against highly skilled players that slim difference can feel insurmountable.

Fortunately, we have a bit more diversity in what I would consider "top tier" primaries at this point than we did in year 1. If I feel like playing aggressively I'll use my DoP or Last Word. If I want to keep my distance I'll use Mida or one of my favorite pulse rifles. But I do generally feel limited to a few options when the going gets tough.

Of course, my best game ever was with my Titan (statistically my worst PvP character) and Phinalla's Peril (a gun I usually suck with) so maybe I'm just all over the place lol

When you have 20 choices as you say, another similar one isn't going to make much difference, which is why nothing you get excited you. It's entirely possible that moving forward Destiny just needs fewer guns which are more dissimilar to each other is style.

Completely agree with that.

So the question becomes: How do you make it exciting for people to get stuff?

Getting a weapon that is way better than the one you have is exciting. Getting one a little better is not exciting. But if a gun is way better than anything else, that creates a problem where it's just too good. If you only get guns a little better than what you have, you don't feel good about using it.

The solution I think is to make guns that are locally overpowered, yet globally weak if that makes sense. Then, design situations where the overpowered element can be exploited, but make that a relatively narrow area, with large weaknesses. If the overall situations are such that you need to balance a lot of elements to succeed, then the gun is never going to totally dominate, yet still feel powerful. Add in some all round weapons that don't have weaknesses but also aren't quite as powerful, and you're good to go.

The more overpowered the gun is, the thinner the razor's edge of using it should be.

What you're describing is almost exactly what I've been saying is so great about elemental primaries. Atheon's Epilogue was NOT an overpowered weapon... but there were times when it was the absolute best thing to use. Same goes for many of the year 1 elemental primaries. Fatebringer and possible Vision of Confluence really were the only "overpowered" elementals. All the rest were totally average outside of select scenarios.

An elemental primary would have to be otherwise extremely weak to fit into that design philosophy. Most of them were otherwise very strong.

And Atheon's Epilogue was never the best weapon to use. Ever. :-p

However, even in high level play "feel" is really important. That is why I like Doom of Chelchis. I hit with it more often, more reliably, and more frequently than most Scouts I use. And that's why I keep any weapon. Other than Quillim' Terminus none of the KF Raid weapons scream amazing, but I have good luck with using them because they "feel" right. Same reason I rocked Atheon's Epilogue and Dr. Nope for so long in Year one.

A lot of the metagaming doesn't impact me. Even if I'm playing the higher tier activities. Usually because I perform better with weapons that have the right feel compared to the numerically superior ones. (Doom of Chelchis/Conviction II made for the last "fun" Trials I played)

When you have 20 choices as you say, another similar one isn't going to make much difference, which is why nothing you get excited you. It's entirely possible that moving forward Destiny just needs fewer guns which are more dissimilar to each other is style.

Completely agree with that.

So the question becomes: How do you make it exciting for people to get stuff?

Getting a weapon that is way better than the one you have is exciting. Getting one a little better is not exciting. But if a gun is way better than anything else, that creates a problem where it's just too good. If you only get guns a little better than what you have, you don't feel good about using it.

The solution I think is to make guns that are locally overpowered, yet globally weak if that makes sense. Then, design situations where the overpowered element can be exploited, but make that a relatively narrow area, with large weaknesses. If the overall situations are such that you need to balance a lot of elements to succeed, then the gun is never going to totally dominate, yet still feel powerful. Add in some all round weapons that don't have weaknesses but also aren't quite as powerful, and you're good to go.

The more overpowered the gun is, the thinner the razor's edge of using it should be.

What you're describing is almost exactly what I've been saying is so great about elemental primaries. Atheon's Epilogue was NOT an overpowered weapon... but there were times when it was the absolute best thing to use. Same goes for many of the year 1 elemental primaries. Fatebringer and possible Vision of Confluence really were the only "overpowered" elementals. All the rest were totally average outside of select scenarios.

I'd mostly agree with you. Yes, it's triple RNG. But the fact that we now have 100% infusion rate pretty much negates the issues. I'm fine with the way infusion works now.

It really doesn't.

Just because the system is less idiotic now doesn't mean it isn't still triple RNG. For every gun I get from a faction package, I have to hope/pray for a 335 equivalent from some other activity to bring it up.

Just the first time.

After that, I can use guns I'd previously infused to 335 to infuse into a new, better-perks gun that dropped at 285 or whatever. No cost at all, except the old gun (which is eclipsed by the new one anyway).

So yes, the very first time you get a gun you like that you want to infuse to 335, you need to hope for a high-light drop somewhere else. At this point, though, that's become irrelevant for me, since I've got plenty of 335s I can use - usually one of the same type as I'm infusing, just with less-good stats.

I guess I just wish Bungie could come up with a more creative hook than "The numbers get bigger!"

If that's the best you've got, just cut it. Make everything the same light-level from the word go, HoW-style.

I've put enough time into the game that I have plenty of incoming infusion fodder... but the thing I still find myself running into is a strange kind of "neglect due to favoritism". It's been like this since TTK launched. I have a short list of favorite weapons that I prioritize for infusion. Meanwhile, I've got a vault full of legendries and exotics that are not my everyday go-to guns, so they're further down my "need to infuse" list. What starts to happen is that every now and then I get an urge to dust off No Land Beyond or Super Good Advice (often in the middle of a strike or crucible match), but I look at them and see they're still 310 and only half upgraded, so I leave them in the vault and forget about them again.

I'll eventually hit a point where all my favorite weapons are max level and I can turn my attention to upgrading the rest of my gear, but by then we'll probably be close to the launch of another new expansion and another new max light level and the whole climb starting all over again.

I just wish I could play the game without worrying about any of this stuff :-/

I get that side of it, all I'm saying is that I don't find most of the current primaries fun or satisfying to use. They're balanced because they're all equally crappy, if that makes sense. They just don't handle or function very well, aside from a few exceptions.

And for the most part I don't feel I have this trouble with many primaries. I do focus on trying to use them in their intended ranges and tend not to have much trouble. There are definitely outliers that feel like they need certain perks to be viable, but most of the primaries I use are flexible and feel like they work where intended.

Maybe I run into a little bit of inconsistency, but that's more to do with the networking and not the weapons. Usually with hand cannons it is most noticeable. But sometimes I have it with MIDA even. I already feel that the damage and scale of risk-reward/ttk have been getting better and have more to do with the feeling of balance than everything just being made weak/inaccurate.

My general feeling is that it is harder to hit targets with most primary weapons than it should be.

Most year 2 Pulse Rifles have a sideways-slant to their recoil pattern, making it fairly tricky to hit headshots without several rounds of each burst missing the target. I find I need multiple stability perks on a PR to make it usable in the crucible.

I find most auto rifles have a bit too much recoil. I'm ok with a certain lack of accuracy on ARs, but I tend to prefer the idea of wider bullet spread rather than having your aim climb around all over the place. I don't think ARs are generally powerful enough to warrant the amount of recoil they tend to have (recoil on a machine gun is a different story, IMO). Again, specific perks make a HUGE difference here. Meaning ARs with stability perks are always the ones that see the most use.

Scout Rifles are generally in a better place than most other primaries, IMO. I find them the best class of weapon when it comes to having your bullets land exactly where you want them to, at any range. So much so that I can get in close range with my Mida and often out-gun an enemy AR user, because my hip fire is so much more stable and controllable than his. And again, stability is the difference maker when it comes to the PvP side of things. I see Mida and Hung Jury getting used all over the place, game after game after game. Meanwhile I rarely see the Iron Banner or Trials scout rifles because they don't have the same level of accuracy.

Finally, hand cannons have been notoriously inaccurate since TTK launched. I find I can still do ok with them from time to time, but I really need to crank up the range stat as much as possible for the weapon to be useful. If I get a hand cannon without a high base range stat & a range perk on top of it, I don't even bother with it anymore.

I'd mostly agree with you. Yes, it's triple RNG. But the fact that we now have 100% infusion rate pretty much negates the issues. I'm fine with the way infusion works now.

It really doesn't.

Just because the system is less idiotic now doesn't mean it isn't still triple RNG. For every gun I get from a faction package, I have to hope/pray for a 335 equivalent from some other activity to bring it up.

Just the first time.

After that, I can use guns I'd previously infused to 335 to infuse into a new, better-perks gun that dropped at 285 or whatever. No cost at all, except the old gun (which is eclipsed by the new one anyway).

So yes, the very first time you get a gun you like that you want to infuse to 335, you need to hope for a high-light drop somewhere else. At this point, though, that's become irrelevant for me, since I've got plenty of 335s I can use - usually one of the same type as I'm infusing, just with less-good stats.

I guess I just wish Bungie could come up with a more creative hook than "The numbers get bigger!"

If that's the best you've got, just cut it. Make everything the same light-level from the word go, HoW-style.

I'd mostly agree with you. Yes, it's triple RNG. But the fact that we now have 100% infusion rate pretty much negates the issues. I'm fine with the way infusion works now.

It really doesn't.

Just because the system is less idiotic now doesn't mean it isn't still triple RNG. For every gun I get from a faction package, I have to hope/pray for a 335 equivalent from some other activity to bring it up.

Just the first time.

After that, I can use guns I'd previously infused to 335 to infuse into a new, better-perks gun that dropped at 285 or whatever. No cost at all, except the old gun (which is eclipsed by the new one anyway).

So yes, the very first time you get a gun you like that you want to infuse to 335, you need to hope for a high-light drop somewhere else. At this point, though, that's become irrelevant for me, since I've got plenty of 335s I can use - usually one of the same type as I'm infusing, just with less-good stats.

The raid is such an epic challenge, the culmination of so much effort and teamwork, it feels a bit anti climactic to get to the end and be given a prize that isn't as good as the guns I used to get there... does that make sense?

Better than what we used to get ;)

I know the feeling.

The raid is such an epic challenge, the culmination of so much effort and teamwork, it feels a bit anti climactic to get to the end and be given a prize that isn't as good as the guns I used to get there... does that make sense?

Better than what we used to get ;)

When you have 20 choices as you say, another similar one isn't going to make much difference, which is why nothing you get excited you. It's entirely possible that moving forward Destiny just needs fewer guns which are more dissimilar to each other is style.

Completely agree with that.

So the question becomes: How do you make it exciting for people to get stuff?

Getting a weapon that is way better than the one you have is exciting. Getting one a little better is not exciting. But if a gun is way better than anything else, that creates a problem where it's just too good. If you only get guns a little better than what you have, you don't feel good about using it.

The solution I think is to make guns that are locally overpowered, yet globally weak if that makes sense. Then, design situations where the overpowered element can be exploited, but make that a relatively narrow area, with large weaknesses. If the overall situations are such that you need to balance a lot of elements to succeed, then the gun is never going to totally dominate, yet still feel powerful. Add in some all round weapons that don't have weaknesses but also aren't quite as powerful, and you're good to go.

The more overpowered the gun is, the thinner the razor's edge of using it should be.

Humorously enough, I actually keep a full-auto Doom of Chelchis around on the Xbox (not enough people on PS for frequent raiding) because I love how it handles. Same reason I mained a Smite of Merain in PvP through most of the fall. Most of the weapons I use are first for handling characteristics, second for perks. Same reason I like the two Challenge of Elders primaries I've grabbed. Still no AR though.

I'm sure this is one of those situations where the insane amount of time I spend playing this game puts me way off to one side of spectrum :) I should also say I'm all for using whatever weapons we all like and have fun with for whatever reason (I used to run strikes with Monte Carlo for no other reason than I liked the way it looked). Personally, my favorite Destiny activities tend to be the most demanding activities in the game (Hard mode raids, Trials of Osiris). I'm not a good enough player to go into these activities using whatever I feel like and still do well... I need to select gear that gives me the absolute best performance possible. So that narrows the list of weapons that I consider "usable" for a lot of my playtime :)

With that in mind...

Because I sink so many hours into Destiny, I have a very good selection of weapons to choose from. As such, any new weapon I get needs to be very good for me to get excited about it. I've gotten several of each raid primary over the past 6 months, and I've tried out every single one of them (fully upgraded them and everything). Each time, I found I already had other weapons that performed better in every single way (boo hoo, right? lol). That's not to say they can't still be fun, or there is no reason to like them... but I do think it is fair to say that none of the raid primaries are "top tier" within the current year 2 selection. And I find that disappointing. The raid is such an epic challenge, the culmination of so much effort and teamwork, it feels a bit anti climactic to get to the end and be given a prize that isn't as good as the guns I used to get there... does that make sense?

I was in the same boat back in year 1 (spent a lot of time playing, had a crazy amount of weapons to choose from), but each and every raid primary I got from VoG or CE was exciting and worth keeping, due in no small part to the elemental damages they all did.

I get that side of it, all I'm saying is that I don't find most of the current primaries fun or satisfying to use. They're balanced because they're all equally crappy, if that makes sense. They just don't handle or function very well, aside from a few exceptions.

And for the most part I don't feel I have this trouble with many primaries. I do focus on trying to use them in their intended ranges and tend not to have much trouble. There are definitely outliers that feel like they need certain perks to be viable, but most of the primaries I use are flexible and feel like they work where intended.

Maybe I run into a little bit of inconsistency, but that's more to do with the networking and not the weapons. Usually with hand cannons it is most noticeable. But sometimes I have it with MIDA even. I already feel that the damage and scale of risk-reward/ttk have been getting better and have more to do with the feeling of balance than everything just being made weak/inaccurate.

I just see that as a good thing. At least for me. I mean, I spent a year chasing the best hand canon in the crucible. In year two, that hand canon is good, but others are very close in effectiveness. So in the future, I don't have to worry and can just use what I have.

I get that side of it, all I'm saying is that I don't find most of the current primaries fun or satisfying to use. They're balanced because they're all equally crappy, if that makes sense. They just don't handle or function very well, aside from a few exceptions.

When you have 20 choices as you say, another similar one isn't going to make much difference, which is why nothing you get excited you. It's entirely possible that moving forward Destiny just needs fewer guns which are more dissimilar to each other is style.

Completely agree with that.

When you have 20 choices as you say, another similar one isn't going to make much difference, which is why nothing you get excited you. It's entirely possible that moving forward Destiny just needs fewer guns which are more dissimilar to each other is style.