SOME people have fun ignoring those aspects of the game. OTHER people really enjoy those aspects of the game. Your question really boils down to "why can't we make a game with the absolute minimum number of features that please EVERYONE, with no features that only please a subset of the population?"

I feel the opposite. I think you should work really hard to add features that only appeal to a subset. Look at the raids. Destiny would be kinda shit without them. Yet few people play them, and fewer people have finished them going by trophy data.

Your first argument was "if you can remove a feature and the game is more fun, you should remove it." For many, many people, the raid is not fun (too hard, to exacting, whatever). In this case, however, you're saying "if the feature I want to play the most is not universally loved, put it in anyway."

I don't think you're being particularly consistent. :(

The raid does not harm the players who don't enjoy it by it existing. That is the difference.

SOME people have fun ignoring those aspects of the game. OTHER people really enjoy those aspects of the game. Your question really boils down to "why can't we make a game with the absolute minimum number of features that please EVERYONE, with no features that only please a subset of the population?"

I feel the opposite. I think you should work really hard to add features that only appeal to a subset. Look at the raids. Destiny would be kinda shit without them. Yet few people play them, and fewer people have finished them going by trophy data.

Your first argument was "if you can remove a feature and the game is more fun, you should remove it." For many, many people, the raid is not fun (too hard, to exacting, whatever). In this case, however, you're saying "if the feature I want to play the most is not universally loved, put it in anyway."

I don't think you're being particularly consistent. :(

SOME people have fun ignoring those aspects of the game. OTHER people really enjoy those aspects of the game. Your question really boils down to "why can't we make a game with the absolute minimum number of features that please EVERYONE, with no features that only please a subset of the population?"

I feel the opposite. I think you should work really hard to add features that only appeal to a subset. Look at the raids. Destiny would be kinda shit without them. Yet few people play them, and fewer people have finished them going by trophy data.

Not getting the gun I want to try, finally getting the gun but with crappy perks, getting the gun with cool perks but at a crappy light level, then spending hours playing activities I didn't want to play because they were the only way to get high-level infusion fodder, playing those activities over and over and over before RNG FINALLY gave me infusion fodder I can use... It is a crappy, crappy loop that this game creates. And yes I care about getting fun weapons because, well, they're fun! As I said before, that is the part of the game I really enjoy.

Just wanted to jump in and say I feel like you're overstating the crappy, crappy loop here. The first two steps of your crappy loop are real... the second two are filler you added to make your loop seem more unreasonable. I refuse to accept that those two steps aren't automatically completed by the time steps 1 and 2 have been completed. :)

You put the problem so succinctly. If you can have more fun ignoring all these aspects of the game, then why are they even in the game? It would be better without them. This is all so plain and simple to see I cannot believe it isn't universally agreed upon.

Late to the party, because I've had limited internet access for a bit... but the answer to your question is as obvious to me as your confusion is to you.

SOME people have fun ignoring those aspects of the game. OTHER people really enjoy those aspects of the game. Your question really boils down to "why can't we make a game with the absolute minimum number of features that please EVERYONE, with no features that only please a subset of the population?"

And the answer to that is actually simple: because it would be over in less time than it would take to launch. :)

I'm sure the Deeply Flawed Raiders would be happy to have you.

Indeed. We actually tried to invite Revenant the other night, but got no response. :(

Sorry man, I turned notification off on dash when I was running through Doom.

The thing I can't figure out is why that repetitiveness or perceived repetitiveness impacts my enjoyment of Destiny but not other games. On the surface, they are the same damn thing.

http://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=6921

They are not the same thing, and there's your answer as to why. I realized I link to old posts a lot, but that's just because I foresaw these problems.

For secondary weapon, the raid sniper is A-tier if not S-tier. RNG to be sure, but very high probability RNG from a controllable farm.

Heavy weapon it's Truth or Thunderlord depending on your preference, both RNG drops, but most players have them by now.

So at least a competitive loadout is possible without much RNG, even if it's not ideal. I agree that there should be less RNG in the game, especially when it comes to getting competitive item drops; just pointing this out in case you're looking to fill a specific need.

I found that the Division at level 30 is completely different from the game at levels 1-29. Instead of being about cover, good shooting, and having fun (and let's be clear, I loved levels 1-29; that was awesome), it's about grinding, long duration stuns, and min-maxing dps to kill the suddenly bullet-sponge enemies before they 1-shot you.

Yeah, no I'm not max level yet, nor am I done with the game. And more than likely I'll drop it once I've completed the main story if it remains that bad once I get there. But according to uPlay I'm 16 hours in and 56% through the story. That's a really good amount of content a first play through.

One thing I like about The Division is the sense that you're helping clean things up. Now, I realize that the only semblance of that progress is that most of the side missions disappear from your map once you've done/they are not repayable. Those tasks were "accomplished." One thing that I think might make Destiny's bounties a little more tolerable would be things that have a specific impact on the world. Ok, there's something happening in this particular area of Patrol, can you go take care of it? You go there, you take care of it, it's done and it doesn't happen around that area for you again. I know that's made more difficult by Destiny's shared patrol spaces, but frankly I never found having other players around was really that big a deal. Maybe it'd be better if people were only pulled together in a public event scenario, or one of these bounty "missions." Either way, a lot of the bounties and missions are either replaying existing linear content or accomplishment counters that have no impact on the world. Accomplishment counters feel pointless and replaying linear content is pointless if the content is bland, especially the first time through. (Which IMO, Destiny is pretty bland)

IDK why, but The Division's story and (especially its) atmosphere have a lot of pull.

I fully agree. I enjoyed my play though the game a lot. It was great! I got my money's worth with about 25 hours of play to get to max level and finish the story. But everything after that was utter crap. Really disappointingly so. The endgame is a completely different game from the leveling up and story game.

I'm sure the Deeply Flawed Raiders would be happy to have you.

Indeed. We actually tried to invite Revenant the other night, but got no response. :(

But I DID have fun playing it. The levels look good. The gameplay is good, if not repetitive. But Halo is repetitive. Shit, I have played games in Halo Wars that lasted over an HOUR for one game and LOST and had fun. These games are all repetitive in one way or another.

The thing I can't figure out is why that repetitiveness or perceived repetitiveness impacts my enjoyment of Destiny but not other games. On the surface, they are the same damn thing.

Coke and Pepsi.

It is Coke and Pepsi, but Coke gives you the entire glass bottle to begin with, whereas Pepsi starts you out with a little disposable paper cone-cup with the tease of a nice glass bottle down the road...after you upgrade to a used solo cup, then aluminum can and so on.

At least the drink is still good?

- MacGyver10

I found that the Division at level 30 is completely different from the game at levels 1-29. Instead of being about cover, good shooting, and having fun (and let's be clear, I loved levels 1-29; that was awesome), it's about grinding, long duration stuns, and min-maxing dps to kill the suddenly bullet-sponge enemies before they 1-shot you.

Yeah, no I'm not max level yet, nor am I done with the game. And more than likely I'll drop it once I've completed the main story if it remains that bad once I get there. But according to uPlay I'm 16 hours in and 56% through the story. That's a really good amount of content a first play through.

One thing I like about The Division is the sense that you're helping clean things up. Now, I realize that the only semblance of that progress is that most of the side missions disappear from your map once you've done/they are not repayable. Those tasks were "accomplished." One thing that I think might make Destiny's bounties a little more tolerable would be things that have a specific impact on the world. Ok, there's something happening in this particular area of Patrol, can you go take care of it? You go there, you take care of it, it's done and it doesn't happen around that area for you again. I know that's made more difficult by Destiny's shared patrol spaces, but frankly I never found having other players around was really that big a deal. Maybe it'd be better if people were only pulled together in a public event scenario, or one of these bounty "missions." Either way, a lot of the bounties and missions are either replaying existing linear content or accomplishment counters that have no impact on the world. Accomplishment counters feel pointless and replaying linear content is pointless if the content is bland, especially the first time through. (Which IMO, Destiny is pretty bland)

IDK why, but The Division's story and (especially its) atmosphere have a lot of pull.

You put the problem so succinctly. If you can have more fun ignoring all these aspects of the game, then why are they even in the game? It would be better without them. This is all so plain and simple to see I cannot believe it isn't universally agreed upon.

I agree with you. They're in the game because Destiny hired an addition expert (literally a slot machine designer) to put psychological hooks into the game in order to create addictive feedback loops *everywhere* to keep people playing.

But the PvE? Boring as hell. Every enemy feels quite a bit like every other enemy (though at least the taken have a modicum of abilities which make fighting them more interesting). There's no real need for strategy, and experimentation is punished rather than rewarded. The name of the PvE game is efficiency rather than fun, and that's very disappointing. I actually like Challenge of Elders because the points present an optimization problem and (unbelievably) a vector for friendly competition with my friends. Other than this, the only friendly competition in the game is classic rumble, which at best still has 3 strangers messing with your fun.

Anyway, yes, this game, the Division, WoW - they're all treadmill games. The danger is that the designers of these games often use a metric of "time spent playing" as the basis for evaluating how good the game is. That's bullshit imo. I can spend 5 hours in Destiny and have no fun at all if I keep wiping on Oryx due to bugs, one person's single mistake, or a lag spike, or any other number of things. That doesn't mean I like the game. PvP I enjoy, but there remains a vast room for improvement with game modes, team play, ranked leagues, custom modes, etc. The game is good *despite itself* and not because someone made good design choices with the investment strategy, but rather somehow, impossibly, those bad choices aren't so bad as to take away completely from the core joy of moving and shooting.

But that's all destiny is. Good movement and good shooting. Where I'm shooting isn't interesting (though it should be), what I'm shooting isn't interesting (though it should be) and why I'm shooting really isn't even a part of the game (though, for the love of god, it should be).

I also can't agree with you that "the really interesting guns [in year 2] all involve quests with steps I can follow to get them". Some of them do, yes. And that's great. But literally none of the top-tier PvP weapons can be attained through quests (with the possible exception of Tlaloc). They're all completely RNG dependent.

When I say "The really interesting guns" I'm not talking about good roll legendaries. I'm talking about the TRULY unique guns, mainly the exotics that function incredibly differently, and the class specific weapons. The top-tier PvP weapons are not really all that unique, just good stats for the (current) meta.

All that said, I definitely understand why you feel the way you do, it's kind of the same thing with ANY loot based RPG. I think Bungie will continue to improve it, but I don't think it's ever going to get to the point where you can get exactly the legendary gun you want quickly, just like with most of these types of games. That's part of the reason I ditched Borderlands is because I DIDN'T enjoy the gameplay and the RNG drove me nuts on top of it. With Destiny I just enjoy the gameplay enough I don't care :) (and I'm glad you're partially there too).

I'm of 2 minds on your approach here. On the one hand, I think you're totally right in a way. But on the other hand, what you're saying can be interpreted as "this game is way more fun if you ignore/don't engage with a bunch of the stuff that Bungie put in there". I agree that the act of levelling stuff up, worrying about specs, min/maxing builds can all lead to more frustration than they're worth. But that stuff is in the game for a reason. For some people, fine-tuning a build so that you abilities and gear and perks all compliment each other in just the right way is very satisfying. Bungie knows this. The problem is that achieving those "goals" is way more of a pain in the ass than it should be. Same goes for the levelling-up mechanics.

I've had people respond to me in a similar way in the past, when I've complained about how frustrating it can be to run the raid 50 times and still not get the gun I wanted. Some would say "if you're not having fun, just don't do that!". But to me, the fun of this game is very much dependant on the weapons. Using a variety of weapons I enjoy is what keeps the combat fresh and exciting. So I don't like the fact that reaching the stuff I enjoy is often buried beneath a bunch of frustrating RNG or other mechanics.

You're right, but that doesn't mean those people are wrong. Your idea of fun baffles me personally. Part of the reason I love year 2 is because the really interesting guns all involve quests with steps I can follow to get them. I don't own almost any of the legendary guns that most people do because I just don't think it's worth the frustration to get them with the perfect roll. But I also have a vast array of guns I DO love, so why should I care?

The argument about "why did Bungie put it in then?" always bothers me because it implies that the game is made for a very limited set of playstyles. Those things ARE satisfying to SOME people, but most people I play with either don't care or have those ideas as passive goals. To my play style they ADD fun to the always fun moment to moment gameplay because I get random moments when my gear does improve or I find a gun that I like (hell, I admit I even enjoy just looking at the new gear even if it sucks). But I have no interest in doggedly pursuing the perfect setup, and I actually think despite what a lot of people think that Bungie doesn't expect the majority of players to chase the perfect setup in any kind of active way. If they had expected it then I don't think we would have seen as many improvements in the drop system because they would purposefully have been trying to drag everything out.

That doesn't mean I think you play the game WRONG, but the changes in the drop system in year 2 tend to help you get to a light level to play any activity you want quickly without losing your favorite gear. The rest is gravy.

Edit: This sounds more argumentative than I meant it. TL;DR: It's because they play differently than you, and that's not a bad thing.

I totally hear where you're coming from. As I said in my response to Munky, I'm half there myself. But... doesn't it strike you as a bit backwards that in order to enjoy Destiny's "investment" system, you can't be, well, invested in it? I should clarify, I'm not one of the min-maxers that I was referencing in my post above. I don't have obsess over getting perfect specs on my armor or stuff like that. I do enjoy options, however. I enjoy having a bunch of fun weapons to experiment with, and the ability to try different playstyles and tactics. Because the activities I enjoy are almost always high-level activities (Trials, IB, Raids), my gear needs to be high level and competitive. I don't mind losing in the crucible because I was outplayed. I DO mind losing because the enemy team has better weapons and abilities than I do. In this regard, Destiny can be extrememly frustrating.

I also can't agree with you that "the really interesting guns [in year 2] all involve quests with steps I can follow to get them". Some of them do, yes. And that's great. But literally none of the top-tier PvP weapons can be attained through quests (with the possible exception of Tlaloc). They're all completely RNG dependent.

At this point right now, I'm in a great place with Destiny. I don't have all the gear I would like to have, but I've got enough that I can go from game mode to game mode and play however I feel like playing at the moment. It's great. The problem is that it took ~8 months and hundreds of hours of play to reach that point, purely because of RNG. NOW I can just play casually, get loads of useless drops without caring, get a happy surprise once in a while, and just roll with it all. But I went months without having an auto rifle that was good enough to take into trials and be competitive, which sucks. For every weapon I now enjoy, there were dozens of hours spent playing with hopes of getting drops I could have fun with, and the frequent disappointment that came with that. Not getting the gun I want to try, finally getting the gun but with crappy perks, getting the gun with cool perks but at a crappy light level, then spending hours playing activities I didn't want to play because they were the only way to get high-level infusion fodder, playing those activities over and over and over before RNG FINALLY gave me infusion fodder I can use... It is a crappy, crappy loop that this game creates. And yes I care about getting fun weapons because, well, they're fun! As I said before, that is the part of the game I really enjoy.

Obviously not everyone cares about the same things I do, and everyone has their own individual things they enjoy... but I don't think my complaints are focused on elements that are specifically enjoyed by others. The thing I keep harping on again and again and again is that I think arbitrary barriers are harming this game. RNG is almost always and arbitrary barrier. "Want a Black Spindle? Cool. Here's this awesome way to get it, if you're good enough. Want a Zen Meteor? Fuck you. Play for 300 hours and we might give you one. Unless you're on Xbox, then double fuck you (;p)". See what I'm getting at? I want to see more Black Spindles in Destiny, less Zen Meteors. :)

I'm not sure we'll see the same thing in year 3 because the sandbox isn't quite as skewed towards a few weapons. I get killed by a much more diverse array of guns now the I ever did in year 1. We'll see though.

I'm of 2 minds on your approach here. On the one hand, I think you're totally right in a way. But on the other hand, what you're saying can be interpreted as "this game is way more fun if you ignore/don't engage with a bunch of the stuff that Bungie put in there". I agree that the act of levelling stuff up, worrying about specs, min/maxing builds can all lead to more frustration than they're worth. But that stuff is in the game for a reason. For some people, fine-tuning a build so that you abilities and gear and perks all compliment each other in just the right way is very satisfying. Bungie knows this. The problem is that achieving those "goals" is way more of a pain in the ass than it should be. Same goes for the levelling-up mechanics.

I've had people respond to me in a similar way in the past, when I've complained about how frustrating it can be to run the raid 50 times and still not get the gun I wanted. Some would say "if you're not having fun, just don't do that!". But to me, the fun of this game is very much dependant on the weapons. Using a variety of weapons I enjoy is what keeps the combat fresh and exciting. So I don't like the fact that reaching the stuff I enjoy is often buried beneath a bunch of frustrating RNG or other mechanics.

You're right, but that doesn't mean those people are wrong. Your idea of fun baffles me personally. Part of the reason I love year 2 is because the really interesting guns all involve quests with steps I can follow to get them. I don't own almost any of the legendary guns that most people do because I just don't think it's worth the frustration to get them with the perfect roll. But I also have a vast array of guns I DO love, so why should I care?

The argument about "why did Bungie put it in then?" always bothers me because it implies that the game is made for a very limited set of playstyles. Those things ARE satisfying to SOME people, but most people I play with either don't care or have those ideas as passive goals. To my play style they ADD fun to the always fun moment to moment gameplay because I get random moments when my gear does improve or I find a gun that I like (hell, I admit I even enjoy just looking at the new gear even if it sucks). But I have no interest in doggedly pursuing the perfect setup, and I actually think despite what a lot of people think that Bungie doesn't expect the majority of players to chase the perfect setup in any kind of active way. If they had expected it then I don't think we would have seen as many improvements in the drop system because they would purposefully have been trying to drag everything out.

That doesn't mean I think you play the game WRONG, but the changes in the drop system in year 2 tend to help you get to a light level to play any activity you want quickly without losing your favorite gear. The rest is gravy.

Edit: This sounds more argumentative than I meant it. TL;DR: It's because they play differently than you, and that's not a bad thing.