I dealt serious damage to trees...

Been there, done that:

Long story short, I don't have a problem with lightning grenades. While they do have certain advantages, they have equal disadvantages. They do plenty of total damage, but it's directional and dealt over time. The pulses are far enough apart that any situationally aware player has time to avoid the 2nd (fatal) pulse even if they get hit by the first. They are also one of the more difficult grenades to place effectively. The thrower needs to aim carefully to ensure the grenade lands on the proper surface, at the right angle... especially since it is so easy to damage yourself with the damn things. As far as their damage radius goes, I've never had a tough time determining their range/damage field. I'm not sure why, exactly. I guess I've just always felt that their animation made things clear enough for me to work with them (or around them).

I also think the dominance of lightning grenades over other Striker grenades in PvP is fine. Not all grenades are well suited to PvP, and that's totally ok.

Finally, given the overall nature of the Striker's ability set, I think a strong PvP grenade keeps them well rounded with the other classes. Titans have the shortest-range melee, and strikers need to be at close range to use their super and shoulder charge, making them riskier abilities than other supers and unique abilities. Titans don't have blink, quick weapon swapping, grenades that recharge health, invisibility, perks that buff their teammates' recharges, or any of the other useful PvP abilities enjoyed by Hunters and Warlocks. So even if we say for the sake of argument that Lightning grenades are the best PvP grenades (which is debatable), I think the serve to bring Strikers in line with the other classes and subclasses.

Solar and Void (the bubble ones) have obvious ranges linked to their visual size. Voidwall and the similar one the Sunbreaker has also share that feature.

The pulses (the blinding grenade, Incendiary, Supression, etc) blow up immediately, so as long as it shows in your HUD, you're fucked, I think. Stickies are the same, I guess.

Basically, the three in the subject line have very little reason not to display their effective range accurately while active, unless the animation is completely locked in the code, while the range keeps getting balanced.

but I think Fist of Havoc's range (on more open maps) via Death From Above and its "Fist of Panic" utility provide a nice contrast in exchange for having one shot to hit targets.

Heh. I think I can count on one finger the number of times I was successful with Death From Above (and it wasn't in Crucible, it was to skip the jumping puzzle in VoG... and it followed 2 or 3 dismal failures). I am really, really, REALLY bad at orienting and aiming while in the air, I guess. I tried it for about a week in Crucible, back in Y1. I dealt serious damage to trees, walls, doorways, the ground beneath my feet, and myself... but NO damage at all to enemies. Seriously. In maybe 2 or 3 dozen activations, I had ZERO kills. (Several suicides, though.)

So yeah... it's a powerful tool... in the right hands. Those hands aren't mine.

Back to grenades for a moment, notice how much more predictable and consistent the damage area of the Thermite grenade's line is than the Lightning grenade's apparently wide, cone-shaped area of effect. Ultimately, it feels like Lightning grenades kill me much more often than any other grenade type. Even when I try and take evasive action. So often it seems like I die to the second pulse even though the Lightning grenade is pointing away from me to a fairly large degree or is (or appears to be!) in a spot that should have provided protection.

I treat the damage zone as a sphere, and I ignore barriers when estimating. I almost certainly count on more space being dangerous than actually is - but I've never been surprised when I've been killed by a Lightning Grenade. It has ALWAYS been clear to me that I got too close.

I can understand your frustration, but ultimately I think it's a personal problem, not a gameplay problem. ;)

But it comes at a price: you have to play a Striker Titan.

Comes with a bonus, you mean! :p

If you're not good at sneaking in close enough to smash without getting shot, you're going to have a great grenade, but no super.

Perhaps you were accidentally thinking of a Bladedancer? A Striker's job is to run in fearless of danger, punch and smash things, and emerge the last person standing:

More seriously, its actually kinda interesting how close Strikers and Sunbreakers are to each other beyond their Supers. Both can regain health by killing things. Both can have quick melee power recharge or do area of effect damage on hit. Both have grenades that do an immediate spherical blast of damage and a grenade that does damage in a (vaguely) straight line. There is more flexibility with Hammer of Soul, but I think Fist of Havoc's range (on more open maps) via Death From Above and its "Fist of Panic" utility provide a nice contrast in exchange for having one shot to hit targets. I guess my point is I don't think the Striker is a weaker subclass, though play style certainly is a factor here, as you noted.

Back to grenades for a moment, notice how much more predictable and consistent the damage area of the Thermite grenade's line is than the Lightning grenade's apparently wide, cone-shaped area of effect. Ultimately, it feels like Lightning grenades kill me much more often than any other grenade type. Even when I try and take evasive action. So often it seems like I die to the second pulse even though the Lightning grenade is pointing away from me to a fairly large degree or is (or appears to be!) in a spot that should have provided protection.

As you said, it's nice to have choices, but the problem is that Titans really don't have a choice if they want to be competitive. In Trials, any Striker Titan who doesn't pick Lightning Grenade is taking a deliberate handicap. And worst of all, Hunters and Warlocks don't have anything even close these days.

The problem I have with this argument is that it's looking at the lightning grenade in a vacuum. We don't play in a vacuum. Yes, it's more powerful than other grenade options available to strikers, and yes, if you're playing a striker, it's the best choice. But it comes at a price: you have to play a Striker Titan. If you're not good at sneaking in close enough to smash without getting shot, you're going to have a great grenade, but no super. (These days, when I play a Titan, I go Sunbreaker - because sticky fusions are spectacular (I kill as many people with them as I used to kill with Lightning grenades, because there's no avoiding death when I throw successfully), and Hammers are a longer-range super option, more suited to my style.

I recently played a game where the entire team - all six players - we faced were Striker Titans, and most of them were wearing Armamentarium. I will admit, I was pretty damn tired of dying to Lightning Grenades at the end of that game. But in general, I feel like they round out a character that has a less flexible super, and in the context of the whole arsenal, I'm okay with them.

I don't think so. They are very strong, and its nice to have some strong choices. So many nades in Destiny are complete crap. I wish they would level the playing field to give you real choices for nades.

It's a completely made-up measure, but let's consider the "lethality index" of all grenades across all subclasses in Destiny. On that list, you'd have horribly under-powered grenades (Hunter's Swarm Grenade, anyone?), and on the other end of the spectrum, you'd have the Titan's Lightning Grenade. Most other grenades are somewhere in the middle, and all grenades, given the right circumstances, can kill an opponent. The problem is that the Lightning Grenade, which is available to only one class, is absolutely overpowered compared to the rest of the field.

As you said, it's nice to have choices, but the problem is that Titans really don't have a choice if they want to be competitive. In Trials, any Striker Titan who doesn't pick Lightning Grenade is taking a deliberate handicap. And worst of all, Hunters and Warlocks don't have anything even close these days.

Note that when the game shipped, this power imbalance didn't exist. The Bladedancer's Arcbolt Grenade was very powerful, Gunslinger Tripmines were solid (and could even stick enemies!), and the Sunsinger's Firebolt Grenade was also very deadly*. All three of those have been nerfed into oblivion, however, leaving the Lightning Grenade alone at the top. The Nightstalker's Void Wall is a close contender, but even that got substantially muted a few months back.

And I agree with others that the AoE "cone" of the Lighting Grenade seems to be bugged and/or over-generous at times. I wish I had thought to record it, but I've definitely taken damage from a Lighting grenade that was stuck on the opposite side of a pillar, facing the opposite direction (i.e., the cone was facing away from me, but I must have been close enough to the source that it didn't matter). The AoE effect is not clearly defined, and the grenade does full damage (which is considerable) even at its most extreme range (which is also considerable), for its entire duration (considerable...).

The one and only counter to that grenade is that you can shoot its base to knock it out early, but the hitbox tends to be a little wonky, too, which doesn't help.

All that said, I don't think that Raga's video accurately captures the insanity of the Lightning grenade. I can certainly see how the grenade could penetrate that grating, and the other player may very well have been in direct line-of-sight anyway. That doesn't negate the argument, though, that the Lightning Grenade is stupidly overpowered.

*Important note about the Firebolt: You have to remember that a Warlock had to very specifically spec into both the Viking Funeral and Touch of Flame perks for their grenade to be considered "deadly." This meant completely giving up Radiant Will/Sunburst and Angel of Light/Gift of the Sun.

As for the animation. It's lightning, to effectively animate that to allow you to see the edges of it would probably blind people or at least fill up screens with pointless animation.

Well, a visual cue is never pointless, but I can see how it would probably be too much information on a lower-res screen. Still, helpful information is good information. Hardly pointless.

I guess the reason I mention this is because Bungie is good at giving people enough information to react, but not so much information as to overwhelm. I think the lightning grenades give just enough visual cues as to react to them. Any more in my mind would overwhelm the senses in PvP (especially if there is more than one)

Not to mention, because it pulses, how does that actually help to know the edge of it? Are you going to make a mental note of the edge and step around it?

Yeah, that's pretty much the point. :) Btw, do the animation pulses represent the damage pulses at all? It could be lag, but lately I've been damaged in between flashes...

If I recall correctly, there isn't any grenades that give a direct animation to damage range perfectly, even the void cone one right?

The damage is definitely supposed to happen at the beginning of the animation, if it happens after that, then I would say it's lag.

I always have a mental note of the cone in my head and I just take a wide berth or just shoot the thing.

Well, I would too, if I even knew how big the cone was. I honestly have no clue. I always overreact and run the hell away, which probably gets me into a more dangerous situation than if I stepped just outside of it and got back into an aggressive stance.

If this is the case, then the grenade is doing it's job :-D

As for the animation. It's lightning, to effectively animate that to allow you to see the edges of it would probably blind people or at least fill up screens with pointless animation.

Well, a visual cue is never pointless, but I can see how it would probably be too much information on a lower-res screen. Still, helpful information is good information. Hardly pointless.

Not to mention, because it pulses, how does that actually help to know the edge of it? Are you going to make a mental note of the edge and step around it?

Yeah, that's pretty much the point. :) Btw, do the animation pulses represent the damage pulses at all? It could be lag, but lately I've been damaged in between flashes...

I always have a mental note of the cone in my head and I just take a wide berth or just shoot the thing.

Well, I would too, if I even knew how big the cone was. I honestly have no clue. I always overreact and run the hell away, which probably gets me into a more dangerous situation than if I stepped just outside of it and got back into an aggressive stance.

And as the AOE grenades can be used for denial in the same fashion as the cone grenades, the raw damage is lower. I'm pretty sure that's because unlike the cone grenades, the AOE grenades can't be turned off. But the half second to acquire and shoot the grenade both delays my movement and alerts the enemy player that I am there.

It has been said that one should always look at an ability as it relates to the entire class. One ability might seem OP, but when you look at how the entire class performs in a game, it seems far less OP. I'm not saying that the striker titan sucks, I'm just saying that it, as a class in PvP probably does just as well or close to all the other classes.

Back to my original point now, Lighting grenades are situationally OP. First, how good a Lighting grenade is is very relational to the map you are playing on. That is not true for a lot of grenades. Anyone who has used the grenades knows that getting kills by just sticking the grenade on the ground will get you as far as trying to kill people with rockets by only hitting them in the body.

Secondly, as someone mentioned before, that they are also quite dangerous to the user. That cone is just as deadly to you on the initial stick as it is to anyone else. And to add to that, they are VERY sticky sensitive. I've died so many times to ducking around a corner to throw a grenade and to have it stick to the door frame. I've even had it stick to the leaves of a bush. This isn't exactly a reason why they shouldn't nerf the LG, but there are downsides to it.

As for the animation. It's lightning, to effectively animate that to allow you to see the edges of it would probably blind people or at least fill up screens with pointless animation. Not to mention, because it pulses, how does that actually help to know the edge of it? Are you going to make a mental note of the edge and step around it? I always have a mental note of the cone in my head and I just take a wide berth or just shoot the thing.

I think the damage is fine. Any less damage and people would just turn around and kill it and be fine. I Know people are asking "yeah but what about if you are taking fire?" I rarely EVER use a LG in mid fight. The few times I do is because I'm going to die. To me, LG's are all about taking away a lane of movement. Which is exactly what that guy was doing in the video. It's about map control, don't enter here or you will pay for it. It's REALLY hard to hit a wall or something with the intention of hurting someone on the first pulse. I'm also not very good at PvP so say what you will :-D

Now, as for the shots. That first one--that is a laser sight right through that door. Diagonally. You were in direct line of fire for that one. The second hit that killed your teammate--he was a little further off than you were, and the screenshot you took shows that. But advance a frame or two--the lightning grenade is sparking bolts nearly everywhere, at least one of them extending out to where the teammate was, signifying that the bolt had indeed hit him as well. It's all about the angle and location. I managed to find a picture of a guy standing almost where that grenade was thrown.

That door gap is pretty darn wide, and certainly more than enough space for a bolt to diagonally fire through.

Now take the Tripmine grenade. Standing next(parallel) to it will barely hurt you. But the laser on that bastard is infinite. It doesn't matter(or care) if you're 10 feet above it, or on freaking Pluto. You cross that tiny line, you die. That's it. Because of the fact that it's modeled after those tripmines at the beginning of the game, the trip laser will go on FOREVER. Which is why the cone of damage on those grenades are extremely narrow, but one-hit kill fatal.

There's no doubt about it: you were just unlucky.

On top of that they have insane range.

On top of *that* their boundary is invisible and very hard to determine.

Furthermore, because they pulse instead of dealing constant damage, it is often too late to escape one you didn't see by the time it deals initial damage.

Way, way, WAY overpowered.

It was phrased as a request. I even included "thanks" and a smiley. Yes, you're free to do whatever you want, but asking people to stick to the topic at hand shouldn't be controversial, in my opinion.

But that's never been the way bungie.org forums have operated. I like that conversations here are free form and don't always stick to the topic. Look all of our massive threads since DBO launched. I would reckon a small percentage of them never go off topic, and I think most of those that do go off-topic lead to interesting discussions. Replying to everyone with "stay on topic or leave" isn't conducive to that, in my opinion, and is essentially the opposite of what's always happened here (and at HBO).

FWIW, I'm not bashing you or trying to be mean or anything like taht. Just throwing my 2 cents in, even though it probably should've remained in my pocket.

I'd be ok with them talking about it at all. I get that I don't have control over people, but having have the responses be either people stating the obvious or asking if I was joking... not so fun when I was hoping for discussion (or heck, agreement, but it's pretty rare we all agree on anything! :p) Like I said a couple of times, I'm happy to be disagreed with. I responded at length to the two or three people who actually engaged even when they were pointing out that they thought I was wrong.

Next time I'll put some kind of note at the beginning of a serious topic like this one letting people I'm looking more for actual discussion than quick one line replies. And I'll cut out individually letting people know I was hoping for more engagement from them. :)

This is actually intended constructively, but if people aren't responding the way you want to a post, the problem probably isn't that you didn't set ground rules for the kind of responses you want.

You might need to adjust your expectations--realize that certain posts will solicit a certain response, or realize that a particular community behaves a particular way regardless of what you post.

So it might be you, or it might not be you.

But this time it's you.

:)

If you have something constructive to say about Lightning Grenades I'll listen and respond thoughtfully and fairly.

If not, say if you're just here to taunt me, parrot my words condescendingly back at me, or tell me my own intentions (aka: your usual), then please leave.

Thanks :)

Wow, how much time did you spend looking all those up? Or did you bookmark them just in case?

I'll take your remarks about my amazing memory as a compliment. :)

You can tell people what to do all you want, but none of us have to listen to you because--guess what--not your forum. Based on how you talk to people, that might be a surprise for you.

It was phrased as a request. I even included "thanks" and a smiley. Yes, you're free to do whatever you want, but asking people to stick to the topic at hand shouldn't be controversial, in my opinion.

If you don't have an opinion on Lightning Grenades, how about: Or No Man's Sky? Or Destiny's story? Or Atheon? Or Trickle? Or is there some other topic (Destiny related or not) you'd like to discuss? :)

Next time I'll put some kind of note at the beginning of a serious topic like this one letting people I'm looking more for actual discussion than quick one line replies. And I'll cut out individually letting people know I was hoping for more engagement from them. :)