Edit: Added Titan Melee & target range.

Nice graph. Though I'd propose the following additions:

.                         (titan melee)
[SG]                      (shotgun)
[--AR--]
[---HC---]
         X                (his target)
        [----PR----]
         [-----SR-----]   (scout rifle)
[---------Sniper---------]
[----------------------------------SB-----------------------------------------------] (Starkiller Base)
[-----------------------------------------WM-----------------------------------------] (Warlock melee)


I'm an adamsnt believer that bullets should go where you point them. That's where recoil and range come into play. Recoil stops you pointing where you want to, and range should just affect aim stickiness and damage dropoff.

If I shoot someone a mile away, I shouldn't have as much "sticky" aiming. That's fine. If I still manage to hit them and only do 1 damage, I know I need to get closer, and that's fine too. If Im using a gun at an inapprppriate range and the recoil keeps me off target, that's also fine. All of those scenarios are a result of poor play on my part.

But if a dice roll decides whether I live or die, that's not okay. I know it might seem like a minor distinction, because bullet ghosting is also a result of range, but it negatively impacts gameplay feel when there are better, smarter design options.

I'm in this camp as well. We're space traveling magic using spec ops immortals but we don't know how to align sights to a level of accuracy equal to 1990's US military standards? It doesn't make any damn sense. Further frustrating the issue is how when hip-firing you get a bloom indicator, but it's not present when ADS. That tells me that my visual reticle bounce is my bloom indicator, except it's not. There are so many tools for ensuring that weapons are only effective at specific ranges and rates of fire, just as you say, that making the sights unreliable is just being mean to the players.

If I had to guess, they did the art assuming a CoD style of gunplay, but designed the gunplay independently. Then they never fixed the art.

Yeah but most people don't have the knowledge of firearms you do, surely? We're talking about scrubs from middle class suburbs who think you might be robbing the place.

I don't even think that plays into it. I've had plenty of experience with firearms (mainly the M-16, M-9, and AR-15, but I've shot various other handguns, long rifles, and shotguns), and I'd still quit playing if they tried to model that. Adding randomness, twitching, spasms, etc, just because it's "realistic" would be awful. Look at the Last of Us. The shooting in that game sucks, and that game has a pretty good justification for doing the floaty, waving aiming that it does. It doesn't make it good, it makes it frustrating and shitty.

Biggest reason I couldn't stand it. Coming from something like Mass Effect 3, which wasn't perfect of course, Last of Us was nigh unplayable for me.

Yeah but most people don't have the knowledge of firearms you do, surely? We're talking about scrubs from middle class suburbs who think you might be robbing the place.

I don't even think that plays into it. I've had plenty of experience with firearms (mainly the M-16, M-9, and AR-15, but I've shot various other handguns, long rifles, and shotguns), and I'd still quit playing if they tried to model that. Adding randomness, twitching, spasms, etc, just because it's "realistic" would be awful. Look at the Last of Us. The shooting in that game sucks, and that game has a pretty good justification for doing the floaty, waving aiming that it does. It doesn't make it good, it makes it frustrating and shitty.

Did we watch the same video? It looked like he was in the absolute sweet spot intended range for hand cannons!

Sweet spot? I think not. That is easily classified as a mid-range engagement, whether one would consider it short-mid or mid is your personal opinion. I do believe that HC's are supposed to be short to short-mid weapons and he's is at what I would define as the edge of the short-mid zone. Again, this is my definition of the range.

The sweet spot would be dead in the middle of short range. Before a shotty would kill and right about where most fusions are effective. The placement in this video is where Auto's should be at their prime and where PR's are now.

This was the sweet spot for a long time with HC's. Far enough to not be able to easily rush you, close enough to aim effectively. I'd put this at solid mid-range. If I had to round it might go to long range, but it's really the middle ground, and often where lots of combat happens.

Definitely approaching the closer part of scout range and right in the middle of pulse range IMO. And, with the doctrine archetype, well within auto-rifle range. HC's can't compete well in this domain where most other weapons at least have archetypes that shine here.

I think Bungie even admitted this by mentioning a high impact longer range HC as a "new" archetype that would be dropping.

Back when HC's were amazing I would definitely engage at that range and further. It was pretty great! Now? I'll begin an engagement at that range, but I'll want to get in closer so I can reliably land shots. I'd like my HC's to have more range, I love em, but I don't think they're intended to be effective at anything past the range he's testing them at. And.. that video kinda proves they weren't meant to be reliable at that distance.

How I see effective ranges (with some humor):

.                         (titan melee)
[SG]                      (shotgun)
[-WM-]                    (warlock melee)
[--AR--]
[---HC---]
         X                (his target)
        [----PR----]
         [-----SR-----]   (scout rifle)
[---------Sniper---------]


Edit: Added Titan Melee & target range.

Definitely approaching the closer part of scout range and right in the middle of pulse range IMO. And, with the doctrine archetype, well within auto-rifle range. HC's can't compete well in this domain where most other weapons at least have archetypes that shine here.

I think Bungie even admitted this by mentioning a high impact longer range HC as a "new" archetype that would be dropping.

BETRAYAL

That is the punchline to roughly half of my fondest Halo memories.

I dub thee Prophet of Tru7h.

BETRAYAL

That is the punchline to roughly half of my fondest Halo memories.

It's an interesting thought, but no thanks. That stuff is fine for the hyper-realistic military sims, I don't want it anywhere near my space magic.

This most absolutely.

Yes you can. See my post about adjusting aim assist and bullet magnetism. Have you ever tried to kill a teammate while they are moving in Halo with the Battle rifle? It's outrageously hard, because both attributes are set to zero when you shoot at people on your own team.

It'll be a long time before I forget how Avateur no-scoped me on the middle hill on Valhalla just to show how hard it was to do exactly that.

"LIKE THIS"

BETRAYAL

Needle in a haystack shot, that one. Haha.

Did we watch the same video? It looked like he was in the absolute sweet spot intended range for hand cannons!

I heartily disagree. I'd say that's the outer reaches of HC's intended range. That's the distance at which I feel I can actually start to engage with a HC. Any further than that & I'm just wasting time / risking my neck.

Take another look at it here before he's zoomed in: https://youtu.be/bZ24eDTg_s4?t=31s

He's quite a ways away. That feels like pulse or maybe scout rifle range to me.

It doesn't have to be hand shaking, or body twitches, but I know that I could more easily accept the fact that I missed if I knew that the game was trying to model the actual physical difficulty of aiming a weapon more.

This sounds like a recipe for total disaster. How many players understand the "physical difficulty of aiming a weapon" well enough to know in the moment of failing and feeling utter frustration wash over you somehow translate that into fun because "oh hey it's like real life no worries?"

Me. Which I guess is why this doesn't bother me. I know some rounds will miss, so I make my decision to get in a shootout or run away based on that, and not the ideal scenario of every round hitting their head.

Yeah but most people don't have the knowledge of firearms you do, surely? We're talking about scrubs from middle class suburbs who think you might be robbing the place.