It is interesting to me how you put that. Especially in the context of Comparing it to Halo. My biggest problem with Halo was that over time it became "what do I pair woth my BR" as the singular meta gelled. I loved the variety we got with Vanilla, but thankfully with the various updates there have been shifts in the meta, keeping from being a one-gun-game, even if some parts of the community wish it would be.

Yeah. I remember people like Datto trying to make Destiny PvP 'pro' by mandating certain loadouts and even skill tree choices…

I think that's lame. Yes, you run into problems when a given skill choice is just better than any other by a large margin and that should be fixed, but variety in the challenges you face in PvP is one of the things I really like about Destiny.

Bungie plz

Edit: Or hell, make it a Scorch cannon!

Sniper rifles and shotguns were power weapons, unless you played the sniper/shotty variant.

People could control the open field with a BR, Pistol or MR, but that was the extent of the issue. Most of the large open middles were to allow vehicle combat.

In Halo the most common loadout equivalent would be a mid impact AR, HC, or Scout rifle.

Imagine a round of crucible if you only had one green ammo box in the center of the map, and it only dropped one brick period, not a brick per person.

Depends on the map. Blood gulch had 2 snipers (one at each base), for example. Even so, my friends and I played an awful lot of pistol + sniper rifle and it was glorious.

A number of green boxes dotted around the map that spawned in at preset times, much like now. Except only one person could have them at a time, but you could claim them from that person if you kill them.

Imagine! Shotgunners exercising a little caution because a trade means losing their ammo! No more than a couple of snipers on each team at any one time! Map flow that actually flows due to mini-"objectives" around the map, rather than funnels! Primary fights!

Of course, I'm playing it up a bit. But that's definitely my preference. I imagine some of it is rose-tinted glasses though.

This would be fun and interesting, methinks.

For me, nothing is more frustrating than a OHK from 15+ yards away from a warlock melee. Which in random PvP isn't so much a problem, but pretty much once a week I'm seeing that stuff during a trials run. Not pervasive, but definitely out there and reasonably common for the more competitive players.

FTFY. ;-)

Thank you for linking that video for me. I knew it existed, but my googlefu was lacking.

Another thing that sometimes works is to just keep running until the enemy takes the first shot. At close range the multiple hits of a shotgun blast hit at the same time and are all completely blocked in the same way a Golden Gun shot is. But again, its awfully hard to not fire when I think I'm within range! :(

Stop ADSing with your shotgun. I know you've been trained to do it by over a year of Rangefinder/Shot Package, but your shield doesn't go down until you press either Aim or Shoot. Get close enough that you don't need to ADS, then just pull the right trigger and Bam.

Imagine! Shotgunners exercising a little caution because a trade means losing their ammo! No more than a couple of snipers on each team at any one time! Map flow that actually flows due to mini-"objectives" around the map, rather than funnels! Primary fights!

Of course, I'm playing it up a bit. But that's definitely my preference. I imagine some of it is rose-tinted glasses though.

The real problem is that Juggernaut shield. What are your options when you have a Titan sprinting at you with that thing, other than to just die?

You might try:

• Hitting him with Smoke. while (It will end his sprint and shield.)
  
• Jumping or evading.
  
• Ducking around a corner.
  
• Shooting him. (Especially effective with a shotgun in close as the shield goes down the moment they try and aim.)
  
• Team shooting him. (The shield goes down quick under combined fire!)
  
• Using The Last Word (I never seem to win vs that thing. It tears through the shield and me like nothing else in the game!)

I main a Juggernaut and sure the shield helps, especially in one on one situations, but I also get killed quite a bit to enemies that can think on their feet. I can block a single sniper or Golden Gun shot and can approach closer to an enemy than I otherwise could, BUT 90 degree turns and enemies who are smart enough to jump pose a very serious problem.

Not saying Juggernaut Shield is no problem, it certainly can be, but you do have a few more options than surrendering.

The real problem is that Juggernaut shield. What are your options when you have a Titan sprinting at you with that thing, other than to just die?

As a Nightstalker I usually roll to the side and chuck a smoke grenade at them. I can usually finish them off while they are slowed with my sidearm. Haven't played enough PvP against them with other subclasses/classes to say what to do for them.

An example: I see a Titan with a shotgun out, running around. I dont know what his stats are, what his perks are, even what his subclass is. I cant even be sure his weapon is a good roll among that weapon type. Sure, it could be a Matador, but it could be a shit Matador or a good one.

So much this. I know I've said it before, and I'll probably say it again, but weapon names should MEAN something. A new-ish player thinks, "Oh, sweet! I got a Matador! Everyone's been killing me with this gun, now I can pwn too! (later) Ugh, why is everyone else so much better with this gun than me? oh... it doesn't have all the range perks!"

If Bungie is absolutely in love with random rolls then the perks should be reflected in the gun name, "Matador 64-ASRK" (Accurized Ballistics, Shot Package, Reinforce Barrel, Kneepads). As it stands right now there are a possible 7776 different rolls for a Matador 64, a couple of which are a 'god roll'. Also, each roll can be configured 9 different ways! That's crazy! It completely removes meaning from the weapon name.

I would prefer less randomness, Each weapon would have a handful (4-16?) of different possible rolls and the roll would be appended to the end of the weapon name, so it would be named "Matador 64-G" if you got roll #7. If part of Bungie's design is to have mystery about the opponents loadout then there would still be the question of "which of the 9 possible configurations of roll #7 is that person using?".

Edit: I understand this would destroy the 'carrot on a stick' incentive system Bungie has setup. Even cutting down the # of possible rolls to 64-128 would be hugely helpful, they could change the name to show which roll they got for each column, so "Matador 64-DF" would mean something, the D & F would have meaning too. "Oh, he's got the same possible perks in the 2nd column!"

I've always maintained that destiny's perks are poorly designed. Any perk that straight up makes a stat 'better', is a bad perk. You look at say shotguns, and it's clear that range and impact are the most important stats. So, perks that raise these stats will be sought out, and you can simply do better than without those perks. Hence sought after god rolls. BORING. Didn't they learn anything from Felwinter's Lie?

Perks should not change gun stats at all. They should enable a different type of play. For instance, Icarus, battle runner, etc. These are more interesting type of perks because they do not straight up improve the weapon, but let you play a different way. That is the way that perks should operate.

Because of character customization, and how PVP games are balanced, all those little changes add up. Eventually, it gets to the point I have no idea what an enemy is capable of.

An example: I see a Titan with a shotgun out, running around. I dont know what his stats are, what his perks are, even what his subclass is. I cant even be sure his weapon is a good roll among that weapon type. Sure, it could be a Matador, but it could be a shit Matador or a good one.

If I play Overwatch, I know exactly what I'm dealing with. This character has THIS much health, THESE abilites and THIS effective a gun.

A little mystery is a good thing. You can surprise your enemy and they you. I like that aspect. You can always inspect their gear. We do it before every trials match.

The real problem is that Juggernaut shield. What are your options when you have a Titan sprinting at you with that thing, other than to just die?

I know obviously Bungie want to get away from that comparison and do something new. But Halo PvP had better map flow, a more interesting tug-of-war over power weapons, and was just generally... Better.

Frankly, I'll just straight up disagree with all of this. I played nothing but Halo for 10 years, never thought I'd like anything more. Then I played Destiny and it blew my mind. I'm not really happy with the changes they have been making to skew it back in a Halo direction.

Yeah. I think except for a few things, PvP at launch was perhaps the best version of the game. It just keeps morphing into something that 'works' but is less interesting. I think this is because a lot of the 'local' imbalances you could exploit are now gone. But that's what made it kind of interesting. If you could, with difficulty, gain these advantages you could really use them.

For me, nothing is more frustrating than a OHK from 15+ yards away from a warlock melee. Which in random PvP isn't so much a problem, but pretty much once a week I'm seeing that stuff during a trials run. Not pervasive, but definitely out there and reasonably common for the more competitive players.

FTFY. ;-)

An example: I see a Titan with a shotgun out, running around. I dont know what his stats are, what his perks are, even what his subclass is. I cant even be sure his weapon is a good roll among that weapon type. Sure, it could be a Matador, but it could be a shit Matador or a good one.

Does it ever make sense to assume they have anything less than the most powerful character and weapon builds possible?

The basic combat theory resolved around close, medium and long range weapons, and power weapons. You were limited in what you could hold, so there would always be a range gap in your loadout that you had to compensate for via positioning and movement.

Over the iterations, some guns were better or worse. The Halo 1 pistol was great close in and at range, for example, and Halo 2 had dual wielded needlers. In fact Halo 2's issue was that dual wielding either forced you to make the weapons half as powerful, or make dual wielding mandatory. Halo 3 tried to add to the sandbox with one handed shotguns, and the brute shot, etc, but they always fit into one of the three range bands.

Destiny does the same thing, but the limitations are different. You never swap weapons in Destiny with dead players or mobs. Your loadout is static. The weapons all fit in the range bands, but you always have two Halo power weapons (special and heavy). In Destiny, you are never forced to operate in a range you dislike because someone else stole the sniper/shotgun/rockets and your stuck with the default AR. That is a big change. This makes Destiny far more about knowing the advantages of your preferred loadout, and your opponents. If anything it makes Destiny far more dependent on the "meta" game.

People could control the open field with a BR, Pistol or MR, but that was the extent of the issue. Most of the large open middles were to allow vehicle combat.

In Halo the most common loadout equivalent would be a mid impact AR, HC, or Scout rifle.

Imagine a round of crucible if you only had one green ammo box in the center of the map, and it only dropped one brick period, not a brick per person.

This was right before the shot on a sliding hunter.