I kind of hate this notion of a "dated style" as if film has made a steady progression in the direction of quality.

It kind of does. The techniques and technology available today absolutely enable you to create a higher quality film than you could in 1900.

Certainly this is true for some markers of "quality." I'm pretty confident that some of what falls under the description of "dated style" are what I'd describe as trends that aren't particularly reliant on technology.

I kind of hate this notion of a "dated style" as if film has made a steady progression in the direction of quality.

It kind of does. The techniques and technology available today absolutely enable you to create a higher quality film than you could in 1900.

One last thing - it's completely unclear why certain members of the "team" actually joined up. Not the randos at the end, but the main guys. No one really questioned it, but it only made sense to me in a "they want to live" sort of way, until the end when obviously that's not why they went with it. I would have appreciated a little more dialogue in the prison to explain how they all became friends and not just guys who are in prison together.

In prison? Jyn was the only one in prison. Oh, wait, you mean when the 3 were being held by Saw Gerrera by the rebel pilot. Meh, their driving values were established well enough for me to understand why they decided to go w/ Jyn & her last ditch effort.

In deleted footage from one of the trailers, Baze made a comment about the destruction of Jedha as their motivation. Having directly observed the danger of the Empire's secret weapon, it makes sense that the surviving Keepers of the Whills would want to help find a way to stop it, even at the risk of their own lives. But I didn't need this spoonfed to me through dialogue, or through a 20-minute scene of Baze and Chirrut crying into the sunset while John Williams' score blared in the background the same way the classic Star Wars films (and their fans) would want it, so I'm glad that the line was cut from the final product; I'm a fan of subtlety.

Oh, and those of us who wanted more characterization aren't fans of subtlety? Could you please be a little more subtle with your condescension?

So much could have done with a few scenes--Cruel is not quite right. We didn't need 20 more minutes. A good writer and director could have had 5 minutes more, and it could made a big difference.

The problem with Rogue One is there isn't enough down time--give me the "dated style" if it lets me see the characters as more than action heros.

This whole exchange here reminds me of how some people say that Breaking Bad is "slow" for the first two seasons. But they say it in a way that lets you know that they think that's a bad thing.

But the thing is, the reason Breaking Bad is good is because of how much time they spend setting up the world and characters. Walt's transformation is only significant if you understand what he was like in the beginning.

One last thing - it's completely unclear why certain members of the "team" actually joined up. Not the randos at the end, but the main guys. No one really questioned it, but it only made sense to me in a "they want to live" sort of way, until the end when obviously that's not why they went with it. I would have appreciated a little more dialogue in the prison to explain how they all became friends and not just guys who are in prison together.

In prison? Jyn was the only one in prison. Oh, wait, you mean when the 3 were being held by Saw Gerrera by the rebel pilot. Meh, their driving values were established well enough for me to understand why they decided to go w/ Jyn & her last ditch effort.

In deleted footage from one of the trailers, Baze made a comment about the destruction of Jedha as their motivation. Having directly observed the danger of the Empire's secret weapon, it makes sense that the surviving Keepers of the Whills would want to help find a way to stop it, even at the risk of their own lives. But I didn't need this spoonfed to me through dialogue, or through a 20-minute scene of Baze and Chirrut crying into the sunset while John Williams' score blared in the background the same way the classic Star Wars films (and their fans) would want it, so I'm glad that the line was cut from the final product; I'm a fan of subtlety.

That being said, the ending was so goddamn on point that it made me want to instantly watch ep IV again. Why it isn't being shown as a double-feature is beyond me. The seamless tie-in was great.

I too totally wonder why they aren't showing a double features in select theaters. Tho' I will say this, I took a quick glance at Episode IV this weekend and it's shocking to see the difference between the two in regards to the special effects. If you pair the escape at the end of Rouge One with the chase scene at the opening of A New Hope, it would be jarring & it would make the original feel really really really dated.

One last thing - it's completely unclear why certain members of the "team" actually joined up. Not the randos at the end, but the main guys. No one really questioned it, but it only made sense to me in a "they want to live" sort of way, until the end when obviously that's not why they went with it. I would have appreciated a little more dialogue in the prison to explain how they all became friends and not just guys who are in prison together.

In prison? Jyn was the only one in prison. Oh, wait, you mean when the 3 were being held by Saw Gerrera by the rebel pilot. Meh, their driving values were established well enough for me to understand why they decided to go w/ Jyn & her last ditch effort.

What the hell was she doing there? They'd already made a much better, visual allusion to the opening scenes of ep. IV, complete with Vader's good appearance of the two (dont get me started on how bad his first appearance was). But instead of letting that reference speak for itself (and it wasn't exactly subtle!) they shoehorned her in, having been mysteriously present onboard that random escape ship the whole time but somehow wasn't important enough to mention in the plot outside one vague exchange.

Plus that creepy, creeeeeepy uncanny valley. Blugh.

Not to be all negative - I enjoyed the overall film, I really like the main antagonist, a major plot hole got filled in, Mads was great, and there were some subtler allusions to previous films which worked. But it felt extremely formulaic. The "From the beginning you know the end", Halo Reach thing can work. But for this I also knew the beginning, middle, cameos, twists, mid-act setpieces, character beats and everything inbetween.

Tl;Dr - TFA was basically a retread but felt new and exciting. This was new and different but felt like a retread

Plus the final 30 seconds were suuuuuuuper stupid. No buildup, no reasonable expectation for it, just a smug, nonsensical "See what we did here guys?". One they'd basically already alluded to not 2 minutes prior, which I thought was quite clever. But I guess it was too subtle and they really had to hammer it home that "]GUYS DOESNT THIS SCENE LOOK FAMILIAR?"

Second, the movie sucks until the moment they rescue Princess Leia. It is slow, uninspired, and uninteresting. Yes, we get to learn that Luke is a whiny bitch, but we don't like him as a whiny bitch. Of course, we do grow to like him over the course of the film, and for that reason it works perfectly, but those opening 40 minutes are very, very poorly paced with lots of time spent sans dialogue or action. It's a very dated style that is very much of the time it was made, whereas - once Leia's rescue is in full effect - the rest of the film is perfectly modern in style and pacing. Her dialogue and character bring the whole thing to life, and suddenly the ensemble gels brilliantly.

I file this with "Star Wars was good for its time." I kind of hate this notion of a "dated style" as if film has made a steady progression in the direction of quality. There is an argument to be made that the best year for American cinema was 1939--I'm sympathetic toward that argument.

The problem with Rogue One is there isn't enough down time--give me the "dated style" if it lets me see the characters as more than action heros.

The whole Vader sequence at the end was great, but - just as you said - came completely out of nowhere.

and I fully agree with your critique of how this film fits into the universe. It works as a prologue to another film, but not as well as its own story. Holy hell did I not ever really care about the fact that those people died. I would have been invested in them if a couple had lived, because I'd be curious as to whether they would show up again, but as it stands I just watched a movie that is well summed up in a few lines of text in the crawl at the beginning of the next film. Sure it gives weight and import to the events of ep IV (and does so in spades, I believe), but as a stand alone film the ending was flat. You get all of the climax without any of the resolving action.

I didn't like it as much as VII. I thought VII was a decent star wars movie.

I really disliked the uncanny valley CGI people, particularly Leia. Everyone knows who it was. They didn't have to show the creepy wax face.

I thought it was a look-alike?

Rogue One is certainly less flawed than TFA, but it doesn't spend enough time with any of the characters for any of the emotional weight to hit home. And that's the main thing I look for in a Star Wars movie.

In a New Hope, Luke doesn't 'answer the call' until FOURTY ONE minutes into the film. Think about that for a second. We get to know Luke for THIRTY TWO minutes before his parents are killed and he sets off on his adventure. That is literally a quarter of the movie.

In that 32 minutes, everything is set up so that we know exactly who Luke is. His hopes. Dreams. Frustrations. His relationship to his aunt and uncle, and to Obi Wan. We know everything about him.

I didn't really know much about Jyn at all. What are her hopes, dreams, and frustrations? When Luke tells Obi Wan he can't go with him to Alderaan, we know exactly why he would say and feel that. I don't know why Jyn would help or not help the rebellion really.

A feel like a lot of film makers these days have a very good sense of story pacing, but they are almost too good in the sense that we are whisked along and caught up in the adventure without taking the quiet time we need to dramatize it.

But DAT Dunkirk prologue though… :-D

It's interesting, because I just re-watched ep IV with my son (he's 3 and really didn't care at all, except to point out whenever Darth Vader was on screen by yelling "Dat Dar Gader! He Good Guy!!!"... poor kid, one day he'll realize how wrong he was, only to discover later that he was right all along... he's in for some confusing years, but I digress)... So I watched ep IV (special edition) and I have to say:

First, every single change in the special editions was the wrong call. From Greedo shooting first completely changing the character of Han Solo to the stupid badly animated sequences of droids punching each other and jawas falling off of giant horse camel things, to adding fifty X-wings to the space combat, they were all wrong. They turned the setting into a joke, made the movie feel more comical, and removed the ambiguity of character from some key players.

Second, the movie sucks until the moment they rescue Princess Leia. It is slow, uninspired, and uninteresting. Yes, we get to learn that Luke is a whiny bitch, but we don't like him as a whiny bitch. Of course, we do grow to like him over the course of the film, and for that reason it works perfectly, but those opening 40 minutes are very, very poorly paced with lots of time spent sans dialogue or action. It's a very dated style that is very much of the time it was made, whereas - once Leia's rescue is in full effect - the rest of the film is perfectly modern in style and pacing. Her dialogue and character bring the whole thing to life, and suddenly the ensemble gels brilliantly.

---

Now to Rogue 1.

This film is dark as fuck compared to the original Star Wars films. I wanted someone to live, and I'm disappointed that they all went out like that. A couple of the deaths were well done and well earned, but a couple felt cheap and meaningless to me, which is a shame. It was like if you took the first Christopher Nolan Batman movie and said it was a prequel to the second Tim Burton Batman film.

That being said, the ending was so goddamn on point that it made me want to instantly watch ep IV again. Why it isn't being shown as a double-feature is beyond me. The seamless tie-in was great.

One last thing - it's completely unclear why certain members of the "team" actually joined up. Not the randos at the end, but the main guys. No one really questioned it, but it only made sense to me in a "they want to live" sort of way, until the end when obviously that's not why they went with it. I would have appreciated a little more dialogue in the prison to explain how they all became friends and not just guys who are in prison together.

All in all, however, I felt it was a better and more complete film than TFA, if a bit outside the general themes of the Star Wars universe.

Not only is it pretentious to the point of absurdity, it doesn't even make SENSE! How can something be half-baked and overcooked at the same time?

You could... overcook only one half of the thing??