I read through this whole thread and... yikes. Real talk here. It doesn't matter what the origins of this particular symbol are-- people have an issue with it because it was used by an actual real-life white supremacist group who attended an actual real-life white supremacy rally that resulted in one death. Bungie doesn't want to be associated with white supremacy groups that use a symbol that's very close to something in their game, so they decided to change it. No matter where it came from or who used it originally, Bungie is reacting to a real life scenario.

That's all a true and fair point, but nobody here even remotely implied that Bungie shouldn't remove the symbol, regardless of context.

I implied they shouldn't remove it, and intentionally so. It's not the same symbol, it was not created to cause people grief, and the whole thing does not matter. If they want to that's their call, it doesn't bother me, but if it was me I'd probably leave it. (Of course, if it was me, it wouldn't happen because I browse these places on regular. You'd be surprised how handy it is to be familiar with the lowest people on the Internet.)
It really is funny. I don't respect you as a person because you act like an asshole, but I at least respected your commitment to the principles of not restricting speech and saying what you really think and feel, and here you are on DBO 90% locked down so as not to get banned or rather told off by mods and so you get to play with people. It's to the point you act like someone with a different personality (except when it shows through like piss on a drunk man's blanket).
You've eviscerated yourself. That is to say, you have no guts.

I had a whole thing typed up and I accidentally lost it. Suffice it to say, the board you're talking about (/pol/) is a lot more complicated than being "the white nationalist board", the symbol itself isn't based on the Nazi flag (the flag it's often used on is however), and someone bad using a symbol doesn't make the symbol bad. Please do not view things so simply. (No I'm not defending the people that use the symbol, not that those people are even all the same.)

I'm fully aware of the history and population of 4Chan, /pol/ etc. I understand that much of it is just transgressive and dark play. I also don't give a fuck. If you want to joke with the white supremicist, I'm not going to give you a pass because you think breaking social norms is fun.

Well I'm not going to give you a pass on simplifying things to the point of making them look like something else to suit your desires. You don't need to give me a pass or condemn me. You should give a fuck about what things really mean and where they come from because it's vital to understanding them, and to condemn without understanding is prejudice, which I legitimately don't want to see anyone doing.

The design poposfully echos a lot of fascist logos like Traditionalist workers party, American Vanguard, Nazi, Golden Dawn etc.

Now that's a more relevant and interesting argument. One influence is satire, or exaggeration, several is... well it's either a much better satire (which is cool) or a sign of acceptance of those influences. You should have said that in the first place. It looks like you got cut off, what were you going to say?

Apparently some sites attribute kek to 4chan, and dismiss rumors of what I'm talking about as hearsay... which is too bad.

well it didn't become well-known until a few years ago, which likely has to do with channers
the wiki you're linking to covers /s4s/ (or [s4s]), a board that was created as an April Fool's joke to make fun of the idea that 4chan was becoming too much like Reddit and too restrictive in moderation (it stands for Shit 4chan Says, a play on the subreddit Shit Reddit Says) which of course immediately became the most meme-heavy message board in existence, and still is
they like to claim responsibility for "kek" as well as pretty much every meme created since the start of the board four and a half years ago

I am saddened to hear that this has been somehow politicized and taken over as an offensive symbol. Because, in my old-school context, kekistan is actually pretty funny...! But apparently not anymore. :/

it is sad
fortunately it matters even less in the grand scheme of things than the kind of people that would create it, use it, or reject it

Given the poor reputation of SJW today, I half expect someone to come forward saying that having all the low level ships as a base white before shaders is racist. Stupider comments have been made.

Exactly, as a white person, I resent that all the boring crap in this game is white...

I would have preferred if Bungie had just said any reference was unintentional and accidental, and ignored it. I think revising the design will lead to a bad precedent, where other groups will claim other images or gear +shader combinations are "hate" and push for them to be removed as well.

Given the poor reputation of SJW today, I half expect someone to come forward saying that having all the low level ships as a base white before shaders is racist. Stupider comments have been made.

All of this will limit Bungie from making more content, as now any new design has to be vetted by an ever shifting, nebulous "bias response team".

The creator of Pepe the Frog killed him because he became a hate symbol. So while he may have done nothing wrong, you have to acknowledge that context if you choose to use or reference it. Totally agree about not forgetting about things prior to them being embraced by folks bent on hatred, but in the same context we can't forget about what other contexts they get used in.

I think you are right in that people can maintain their use in the old forms, so long as they are conscious of how they are externally perceive given newer contexts. And that is where one should be careful and understanding. Like everyone has agreed Bungie is being.

How is the public at large supposed to remember an original meaning of a work or symbol if we abandon it once a hate group gets a hold of it?

This is a great point, Raga, and entirely valid. It's also one I would support in a lot of situations. Make X Great Again as a phrase shouldn't be excised because of its associations. The toothbrush mustache is perfectly fine. In a black and white universe, I agree with you.

Unfortunately, there is a rich tapestry of shades and colours out there, and in a situation like this, a cartoon frog, or a coincidental glove design, things that have little effect on the public beyond their appropriations by hateful people, then maybe we can consider it better to just drop the symbol altogether.

In the real world, remember we often have to compromise with our principles for compassion, or for practicality, or for any number of reasons. It's really tempting sometimes to just be opposed to things because it upsets our ideals, and most of the time, that's fine and it doesn't matter. But if you're the designer who accidentally made the gloves look like a bad thing, you are faced with a problem. Take a hard line, which the community known for appropriating unrelated things for hate may take as an endorsement, or change the essentially meaningless design and denounce them, thereby keeping your product from aiding them in a racist mission?

I know what I'd do. I'd change those gloves in a second, even if I really liked the design. I think you would too. It's not worth it.

I had never heard of this, but apparently it's either a white supremacist rallying image or an anti-white supremacist trolling image depending on what part of the internet you click through to. I initially read about it on Game Informer, but here is the original article.

- MacGyver10

Yeah, I saw that at Kotaku this morning. You gotta wonder if it was an actual coincidence/accident, or if someone at Bungie was trolling?

On the internet it's really hard to see the real world implications of things you do in a non serious way. I don't think most people even on 4chan who like these symbols and things understand that to some, they're not a joke. Some people mean others harm by them.

If it wasn't a coincidence (and it totally could be, the symmetry of Ks is very pleasant, and it's just some lines), I don't think it is trolling. It might just be a person who thinks some of these internet jokes are funny, and he hasn't realized how they are in the real world, and that to some people they're not jokes.

We're all nerds here; we've seen the behavior when someone brings internet memes out in real life a bunch of times before. Usually it's just cringey crap, but sometimes it can cross a line that the person didn't even know was really there, because it was online and he never picked up on that.

If it wasn't a coincidence, which is my first guess, I would definitely imagine it was just ignorance of impact of the joke flag in the real world. I would hope someone isn't trying to seriously troll people with racist ideas at Bungie.

I think a lot of my disconnect with that there was uh, part misinterpretation and part varying ideas of what meaning being purely on the side of the interpreter should mean. Which uh. Makes this a pretty much textbook demonstration of exactly what you're saying?

So that's kinda funny.

You mention good faith and an ability to identify when something is an intentionally offensive symbol or a coincidental one. This is why we have the D words: dialogue, discourse, and discussion. The overall intent of these three words is the same end result, but I use all three because they hold different information to different people and in different spaces.

The end point is that there are statements coming from both sides to reach an understanding. Compassion is a combination of the empathy and patience to go through it. I acknowledge that whatever I write only holds the meaning as you read it. However, because this is mot me giving a speech or publishing a paper, we have the opportunity to work through that limitation. You respond to the meaning of my words as you understand them. Then I interpret your words in that same manner until, hopefully, we reach an understanding. If we don't we hit an impasse and thay is either an ideological difference or some other limitation on communication.

I am very passionate about visual communication. I have spent time both personally and academically involved with meaning via individual interpretation. This is only intended to help aid in why I keep going on about it here. I think in a community like this we have the ability to work through things that may upset others - but not all situations merit trying to work through it and are better served by correction and moving forward.

Now, I think it's probably for the best that Bungie removed this. Because it doesn't seem very important, and so it's in the best interest for the proliferation of their vision that they remove it, so that the game remains an inclusive and fun experience for the playerbase. Because that's what Bungie wants it to be.

Had they knuckled down, kept the symbol, delineated that it was not related to the whole Kekistan thing, denounced the connotations that they didn't intend, and made their case for artistic integrity, I would side with them. It's a delicate balance on what should be done, but ultimately it would have been their right to do that. (Which, of course, nobody is disputing.)

So I can see where Ragashingo is coming from- it's a shame that an artistic vision has to suffer because some jackasses are ruining things by association. And it feels a little like we're letting them win by caving like this, that everything they're even close to has to go poof in the name of sensitivity.

And I can see where you're coming from- it's important to respect others' feelings, and it's an important part of proper communication to consider how your message is likely to be received, whatever you intend by it.

While I mentioned something elsewhere to the effect of a pragmatic point of view on the matter, with respect to what Bungie should have done, I think compassion is the best answer. But that goes both ways?

I'm getting pressed for time now so basically my point is that a good faith effort on everybody's part is important; I'm not saying that people shouldn't take offense to things that weren't meant to offend, but it's important to be able to delineate between something that makes you uncomfortable on accident by reminding you of a symbol with negative connotations and something that makes you uncomfortable because it is actually intentionally such a symbol. Obviously there's room for uncertainty in telling which something is, and you can still want the former category to be removed, but mutual understanding just helps everything along.

Compassion and understanding doesn't mean giving into hate groups. I am unsure what context would lead to that conclusion. If someone says you hurt or upset them, compassion and understanding is to listen and correct the error. Obviously you fight the hate group trying to poison your symbol. That doesn't keep you in any way from adjusting the details of a work to better communicate your values and support your audience.

If a hate group can take away your symbol's meaning, it can't have had that strong a meaning or context before or it was otherwise not worth defending. But once it has become a hate symbol, you do have to react accordingly, otherwise you stand to antagonize your audience.

The context of the Destiny tricorn is inherent to the work...

Except that's very easy to say when it isn't currently being used by bad people. What if you woke up tomorrow and there was a large rally of some hate group and they were using it? What then?

If we go with the truth, that the Tricorn is a logo of a video game and represents safety, protection, and goodness, then nothing changes. If we go with compassion then a symbol that did stand for some sort of good would have its meaning very quickly lost and it will only ever be used in the context of hate.

Compassion is great and all, but is it really necessary to scrap and abandon something to hate because some small group is corrupting it?

The problem is that the "truth" is malleable. The meaning of communication rests solely on the receiver. Even in the context of visual arts. So regardless of the "truth" of your intent, it doesn't matter if the truth of what is viewed is something else. The only truth that always wins out is compassion and understanding, and denouncing things that are counter to that, intentional or not, is important.

The creator of Pepe the Frog killed him because he became a hate symbol. So while he may have done nothing wrong, you have to acknowledge that context if you choose to use or reference it. Totally agree about not forgetting about things prior to them being embraced by folks bent on hatred, but in the same context we can't forget about what other contexts they get used in.

I think you are right in that people can maintain their use in the old forms, so long as they are conscious of how they are externally perceive given newer contexts. And that is where one should be careful and understanding. Like everyone has agreed Bungie is being.

How is the public at large supposed to remember an original meaning of a work or symbol if we abandon it once a hate group gets a hold of it?