Just a quick guess, the damage cap seems to be 290. My base power level is around 290. Engrams are still at 290.

I will endeavour to get the vid up somewhere. I have the pieces but not the time. The 280-290 difference is quite certain.

BTW, the sniper was just for testing. Not for Raiding.

Huh, that's really interesting. I had no idea that overleveling improved damage at all in this game, and honestly was under the impression that it didn't. Both shots were the same sniper rifle on the same boss at the same range and with the same perks and buffs active?

I don't think it does. Many many people have discussed this and it seems to hold true for Des2ny. The difference is likely either the range, or the call to arms buff.

Either that, or increasing the power of the particular weapon causes it to do more damage. So, if your gun was at or above the enemy power level, any amor pieces you added would not increase your damage even if it improved your overall light level. Worth looking into.

I hope you are incorrect about power levels. Otherwise, what is the point of attaining 300+5?

There is no point. Okay, minor points: Prestige modes are for power 300. Also there's a quest after you beat the raid, if you were already on the quest step that was "beat the raid," that is power 300 recommended. That's it as far as I've seen in the entire game. 270+ can do pretty much everything.

My testing seems to have revealed you are incorrect. I just tested identical snipers at 280 and 290 on a Standard boss of the Castleum. The 280 scored consistently lower hit points than the 290. The only explanation outside of errors that I can think of, is that power levels continue to improve DPS as they rise. At least in the Raid.

Huh, that's really interesting. I had no idea that overleveling improved damage at all in this game, and honestly was under the impression that it didn't. Both shots were the same sniper rifle on the same boss at the same range and with the same perks and buffs active?

I'm working on piecing together a vid. I want to include the same sniper at 290+5 perk but haven't capped it yet.

That would be good info to have. Are you certain you were inside the max damage range falloff with both shots?

You are probably at 305 over every piece of gear by now?

I am, but that's immaterial. The first time I cleared the baths, dogs, and gauntlet of the raid I was 274 and the average light in my raid was probably right around 275. I was 290 by the time I cleared the final boss, but I didn't think my gear came into play at all - our difficulty in every fight was always figuring out the mechanics rather than simply not having the dps. We did raid with a friend who was only 260 at the time and he had some problems killing the orange bar guys solo, but he was still able to do it, even if it got a little hairy for him.

One thing: Snipers kind of stink for this raid. They don't deal enough damage, nor do they deal it quickly enough for most of the encounters. Shotguns or fusion rifles for baths, swords or rockets for dogs, rockets for gauntlet would be my preferred power weapons. Castelleum should be fine with anything, but snipers might not be ideal since you're taking so many hits which would throw your aim off. IMO snipers are not in a good place in D2.

I hope you are incorrect about power levels. Otherwise, what is the point of attaining 300+5?

There is no point. Okay, minor points: Prestige modes are for power 300. Also there's a quest after you beat the raid, if you were already on the quest step that was "beat the raid," that is power 300 recommended. That's it as far as I've seen in the entire game. 270+ can do pretty much everything.

My testing seems to have revealed you are incorrect. I just tested identical snipers at 280 and 290 on a Standard boss of the Castleum. The 280 scored consistently lower hit points than the 290. The only explanation outside of errors that I can think of, is that power levels continue to improve DPS as they rise. At least in the Raid.

I'm working on piecing together a vid. I want to include the same sniper at 290+5 perk but haven't capped it yet.

You are probably at 305 over every piece of gear by now?

I've made it through that section multiple times with a power level of 280-85. I sure as heck wouldn't try to use snipers on the yellow-bars, though, not just because I suck with snipers. There are too many enemies around to mess up your shot.

I hope you are incorrect about power levels. Otherwise, what is the point of attaining 300+5?

There is no point. Okay, minor points: Prestige modes are for power 300. Also there's a quest after you beat the raid, if you were already on the quest step that was "beat the raid," that is power 300 recommended. That's it as far as I've seen in the entire game. 270+ can do pretty much everything.

My testing seems to have revealed you are incorrect. I just tested identical snipers at 280 and 290 on a Standard boss of the Castleum. The 280 scored consistently lower hit points than the 290. The only explanation outside of errors that I can think of, is that power levels continue to improve DPS as they rise. At least in the Raid.

I'm working on piecing together a vid. I want to include the same sniper at 290+5 perk but haven't capped it yet.

You are probably at 305 over every piece of gear by now?

If I'm reading this thread correctly, you are capable of completing the castellum (and you get rewards from the chest afterwards, so there's your rewards for doing it), but haven't cleared gardens, baths, or gauntlet yet? I hate to tell you, but castellum is not considered a "major" encounter in this raid. It's like an interstitial. The other encounters are the majors. Once you clear one of those, there will be a checkpoint.

Quick and dirty castellum tips:

- 2 people on offense, 4 on defense. Use your heavy ammo as needed, it drops like candy. Use good AoE supers. Try to chain your orbs. Be sure to kill counselors as soon as they appear. This is a pretty straightforward fight. Kill the standard bearers, carry the standards to the plate, repeat. The defenders keep the standard reclaimers from reaching the plate.

The other fights are not really about dps at all (you don't need light 305, by the way - anything above the light level of the enemies doesn't provide any additional bonus (270, iirc). All three fights are about mechanics execution, rather than gear checks or dps. If you're having trouble with any of it, please post your questions here.

Calus Tokens are a Bungie joke on players who may never see the end of the raid. They are unnecessary and are not a reward.

I think they're meant to be a method for people who've already cleared the raid to get raid loot they might not have randomly received by doing the raid, while also ensuring that people clear the raid without using the raid loot as a (very minor) crutch.

Castellum challenges every ability we have to compete. We know how to do it but it is quite a time sink and having to repeat it multiple times in one raid does not improve our spirit.

I'm sorry to say, but if the Castellum challenges you guys, then the raid really might not be for you. It's a very simple fight, mechanically speaking, and doesn't require high dps or coordination on the part of your teams. It does help a bunch if you're using your supers and heavy ammo, so if your raid group is trying to beat it all with kinetic weapons or something, then you're going to have a bad time. The only real mechanics to watch for are: Kill "counsellors" the moment they appear and ensuring that standard returner orange health dudes don't make it all the way to the standards and return them. When you see the alert "a counsellor" has appeared, everyone on defense should start looking around for the guy in the bubble (and then you have to melee him to kill him). When you see a legionnaire with orange health, use your heavy ammo or supers to kill him quickly. Call out for help if you need it. I understand a death or two during this fight, but no one should be wiping.

I hope you are incorrect about power levels. Otherwise, what is the point of attaining 300+5?

There is no point. Okay, minor points: Prestige modes are for power 300. Also there's a quest after you beat the raid, if you were already on the quest step that was "beat the raid," that is power 300 recommended. That's it as far as I've seen in the entire game. 270+ can do pretty much everything.

With our group, DPS is very important. Knocking down enemies quicker gives a bit more time to think and react. Having a clearer head helps with mechanics execution.

This could be said for any raid. The only "dps race" parts of the whole raid, as far I'm concerned are destroying the lanterns in the pools and beating the final boss fight in 2 cycles. Nowhere else are you really against a wall for DPS. You need to be able to solo down a bather without using your super (use your heavy!), but that's about it. The raid is really very forgiving about how much actual damage you and your team can put out at once.

What seems to be killing you in the castelleum? Are you having trouble finding the guys who carry the standards? Getting overwhelmed on defense? Not splitting the raid group into two groups?

You can bypass the Castlellum between challenges and use the underbelly to go to the next one. You can do it once for the initial drop, or not at all.

Does it actually save time?

Ultimately, it depends on how long it is taking you to get through the Castlellum.

^ This. If the Castlellum is that much of a problem I suggest finding a map online and learning the paths through the underbelly.

The benefit of this rotation, though, is great.

Yes, this change was good.

A checkpoint after Castellum would have made it much better. Not requiring Castellum in between subsequent encounters would be an excellent change too.

You can bypass the Castlellum between challenges and use the underbelly to go to the next one. You can do it once for the initial drop, or not at all.

Does it actually save time?

Ultimately, it depends on how long it is taking you to get through the Castlellum.

The underbelly is HUGE, and a total maze, and filled with stuff to do. Every time my raid groups go down into it, we end up spending more time there than we do in the rest of the raid. But a lot of that is due to getting lost. On the flip side, my groups have the Castlellum down to the point where we can clear it in about 5 minutes, first try. It might be possible to get through the underbelly that quickly, but it seems like a stretch to me. I suspect that the castlellum is ultimately the faster way to go, once you get the encounter worked out to the point where it isn't too much trouble for you anymore.

Either way, the underbelly is worth exploring at least once. It's like a whole other adventure, layered on top of (er...underneath?) the raid :)

You can bypass the Castlellum between challenges and use the underbelly to go to the next one. You can do it once for the initial drop, or not at all.

Does it actually save time?

Depends on how well you know the underbelly. It’s not as large or confusing as it initially seems, but it takes time to learn the routes between all the encounters.

My group always just did the Castellum again as we didn’t know the underbelly well enough to not get lost.

The benefit of this rotation, though, is great.

Yes, this change was good.

A checkpoint after Castellum would have made it much better. Not requiring Castellum in between subsequent encounters would be an excellent change too.

You can bypass the Castlellum between challenges and use the underbelly to go to the next one. You can do it once for the initial drop, or not at all.

Does it actually save time?

Now that you mention it, I think Chickens or someone mentioned Totems as a reference point when we were figuring out the pools section. It definitely was the easiest section to figure out for us.

Yup. This was what came to my mind. I did, for longer than I want to admit, entertain the idea that instead of two teams, you would have the whole team weaving in an out in a clockwise (or counterclockwise) formation but the timing was off. I thought that might be a deeper refinement of the totems, but, alas, it was basically just the totems and my brain wanted to make it more complex.

The Prison of Elders made even less sense… the Vex can teleport and go through time and space… but they choose to stay in the prison. Uh huh.

When you have the ability to see across timelines and predict future outcomes things like this happen:

Qodron sees only its own glorious future. It has come to the Prison of Elders, with an army of devout Vex war-machines, to take what it believes to be its first steps toward that future.

This machine beast has only one mission. At some point a Light will shine within the walls of this Prison, and for its gloried future to unfold, that Light must die.

Qodron is not the prisoner here. You are, Guardian.

Tagline:

"It is no prisoner. It is here with a purpose."

Qodron, Gate Lord

Royals Pools is a cool variation of the square-dance-of-death finale of Wraith of the Machine

Nah. It's the Totems section of King's Fall with less wipes due to people forgetting about the tether.

That’s where my brain went. So much so that during my first run through the raid with Peaksutah and Slycrel, we poked around with the encounter for a while and then the lightbulb went on over my head and I said “oh, it’s like the Totems” and we got through it in no time, lol

Although I’ve gotta say, “square-dance-of-death” is the most perfect description of that WotM encounter that I’ve ever heard :)

:) In my mind I was drawing an analogy between the captains and the bathers.

Now that you mention it, I think Chickens or someone mentioned Totems as a reference point when we were figuring out the pools section. It definitely was the easiest section to figure out for us.

P.S. all the stuff you say is dumb I love. Royals Pools is a cool variation of the square-dance-of-death finale of Wraith of the Machine, Pleasure Gardens is a nice spin on the Gorgon maze, and the Gauntlet is a nice, more forgiving revision of Oryx mechanics, sans the Taken (Hallelujah!)

I personally gave up on raid encounters making canonical sense with Kings Fall. I think we even talked about it quite a bit at the time here at DBO... the “gameyness” of King’s Fall’s encounters compared to VoG or Crota. And I think that’s ok, really. I have a soft spot for the way VoG pulled me into the universe and felt like a believable place within Destiny’s fiction, but at the end of the day I’m ok with sacrificing that in favour of fun mechanics.

And in defence of Leviathan, the whole thing is presented in-universe as an exercise in amusement. It certainly makes more sense than the KF dick-wall or the Death Zamboni in WotM :)

The Prison of Elders made even less sense… the Vex can teleport and go through time and space… but they choose to stay in the prison. Uh huh.

Speaking of that... I was recently re-reading an old post I'd written about how I would recreate PoE, and it reminded me more than a little bit of what we ended up getting with the Leviathan raid, lol. Just in a few minor ways :)

P.S. all the stuff you say is dumb I love. Royals Pools is a cool variation of the square-dance-of-death finale of Wraith of the Machine, Pleasure Gardens is a nice spin on the Gorgon maze, and the Gauntlet is a nice, more forgiving revision of Oryx mechanics, sans the Taken (Hallelujah!)

I personally gave up on raid encounters making canonical sense with Kings Fall. I think we even talked about it quite a bit at the time here at DBO... the “gameyness” of King’s Fall’s encounters compared to VoG or Crota. And I think that’s ok, really. I have a soft spot for the way VoG pulled me into the universe and felt like a believable place within Destiny’s fiction, but at the end of the day I’m ok with sacrificing that in favour of fun mechanics.

And in defence of Leviathan, the whole thing is presented in-universe as an exercise in amusement. It certainly makes more sense than the KF dick-wall or the Death Zamboni in WotM :)

The Prison of Elders made even less sense… the Vex can teleport and go through time and space… but they choose to stay in the prison. Uh huh.