DBO Forums - That was supposed to say 1385. https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/ Bungie.Org talks Destiny en That was supposed to say 1385. (reply) I got home, forgot the book I quoted cause I wanted to look into it more, read my post, noticed a typo. Can't let it go.

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=142362 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=142362 Thu, 16 Nov 2017 06:11:15 +0000 RecruitmentFunkmon
Useless argument. WARNING: basic semantic theory inside (reply)

And the thing is that it doesn't bother me either, because the idea gets across. 90% of the time, I won't say anything when someone makes a mistake, because it's pure pedantry. I'll catch it, yeah (call it an intuition, lol), but I'll only point it out when doing so would be funny to me, and because I know that it annoys the person that it's directed at

THIS. This is telling. How old are you now--30? SMH.

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=142357 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=142357 Thu, 16 Nov 2017 04:48:41 +0000 RecruitmentKermit
Then we agree completely. (reply) https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=142356 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=142356 Thu, 16 Nov 2017 04:47:30 +0000 RecruitmentFunkmon Useless argument. WARNING: basic semantic theory inside (reply)


My bone to pick with Kermit was the suggestion that inside would be indicative of a non-native speaker. There are other logical interpretations that could lead to that usage.

Predictive, not indicative.

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=142355 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=142355 Thu, 16 Nov 2017 04:28:26 +0000 RecruitmentKermit
Shouldn't it be Decoding lag, though? (reply) Good point. And now that you've mentioned it, I recall that I've used the phrase "mental overhead" to describe this.

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=142353 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=142353 Thu, 16 Nov 2017 03:56:50 +0000 RecruitmentKermit
Useless argument. WARNING: basic semantic theory inside (reply) Yeah, see, we agree about the mountains thing.

I'm saying this is semantics because certain things (eg "I am inside town") were meant to make the equivalency I just described; but were misunderstood as saying they were constructions I use in real life.

I then complicated matters, trying to defend the technical validity of the construction despite its awkwardity, which just sounded like I was affirming the "This is a completely fine, equivalent construction" position I accidentally made it sound like I was saying.

Further complicating things is that there is a semantic difference here, it's just not as broad as all that. I think "I am inside the woods", or "I am inside the building", are perfectly innocuous, while some other inside constructions are awkward, or even problematic (like with the mountains).

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=142346 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=142346 Thu, 16 Nov 2017 02:59:51 +0000 RecruitmentRaichuKFM
This is fun. (reply)

"Hey dad, how did the Tigers do?"

"Grass is green."

Ostensibly, these have nothing to do with one another, but I, as a human, assume my father is following these maxims, and he is trying to tell me something. Is the grass green because the outfielders barely had to move and Boyd threw a no hitter? Maybe it was a rainout and now the grass is greener. I have to think about what he could mean by that because I assume he is giving me relevant information. This happens.


Heh - my first thought would be that he's saying that the Tigers did what they always do. (I don't know what they always do - maybe they lose a lot, maybe they win a lot. I know nothing about the Tigers. I'm just saying that I'd interpret that response as "Grass is green, water is wet, the Tigers ______.")

But then again, you know your dad better than I do. :)

Actually I started with F=MA, then I thought "well that's so far off, the only thing I could do is propose that he might be stating some kind of truism about the universe and infer the Tigers are in a zen like state of maintaining a .500 record."

Then I went with grass is green to be more reasonable and you went there anyway.

If you find this fun, here's a good one.

-------

"Hey dad, how did the Tigers do?"

"Well, the Lions won."

-------

There's a lot going on in this one. He's not answering my question, so he's apparently not trying to follow the maxims...but I assume he is. So okay, he knows the answer, but won't tell me. Why? Well, there's an idea floating around of a "politeness" maxim. People don't like to say no, or give bad news. They are averse to it so strongly that they willingly break these fundamental maxims to avoid giving it. So, they break the maxim, knowing that somewhere deep inside we understand why they might break the rules. I would assume here that the Tigers lost, as my dad was changing the subject to a Lions victory.

Or, maybe there's a better explanation for it. My exposure to semantics is one graduate course, so there's probably some explanation beyond the politeness maxim, otherwise surely it would be generally accepted by now.

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=142344 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=142344 Thu, 16 Nov 2017 02:52:41 +0000 RecruitmentFunkmon
Useless argument. WARNING: basic semantic theory inside (reply)

So it depends on implications and semantics;

Yes, we're literally arguing over semantics, which is fun. Normally when people say "we're arguing over semantics," it's usually people quoting dictionaries at each other, then realizing they agree. Of course, this entire argument is based on semantics, which is fun.

You're making an argument that is immaterial. It doesn't matter about what you're asserting is technically true, and it isn't semantic baggage, it's actual meaning.

No, no physical spaces can you be in, but not inside of. In much the same way, reusing an example from last time, you have no wives who aren't mothers of your children. But they mean differently.

One is more specific. One implies you're inside the cave. The set of all things that mean inside (which is probably how I should have written it before) is a strict subset of the things which mean in.

If you told me "oh I'm in the mountains" and I found out you were spelunking, I would consider that hiding the truth. I would ask why you didn't tell me that. If you told me "I'm inside the mountains," I would ask, first thing if you were in a cave, playfully making fun of you for using an awkward construction which has only one context independent meaning.

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=142343 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=142343 Thu, 16 Nov 2017 02:42:52 +0000 RecruitmentFunkmon
YES PLEASE (reply) https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=142342 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=142342 Thu, 16 Nov 2017 02:33:22 +0000 RecruitmentFunkmon Only in Latin. (reply) The copula links the complement to the subject. In Latin, whence this English rule came a couple hundred years ago. Now, in Old English, we DID mark this with a nominative case. Case markings are essentially gone, however, and nobody did this for a long time. Nobody continues to do this. Disjunctive pronouns are accusative in the past 800 years of English and are treated as objects, and I think also were in Vulgar Latin. They are in French iirc.

It's currently an idiomatic usage in people who know the "rule," who say things like your father. We know it's idiomatic as it doesn't show up except in certain phrases, like "this is he" or "this is I."

Your father wouldn't say of your mom's picture, "this is she in 1971," he would say "this was her in 1971," more than likely.

Were he to have completely internalized that rule, which I highly doubt but is not out of the realm of possibility, he is very steadfast in his choices, and I would say non standard in all but idiomatic usage, like what you say he does on the phone.

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=142340 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=142340 Thu, 16 Nov 2017 02:03:29 +0000 RecruitmentFunkmon
Useless argument. WARNING: basic semantic theory inside (reply) Let me try again.

Put aside the implications of saying "I am inside" versus "I am in" for a moment. Because I agree with you, largely.

My contention by saying they mean the same thing is rather that the state of being in a space, and the state of being inside a space, are identical, regardless of how physical the boundaries of the space are.

The way you express that state varies on context and semantic baggage. "I am in the mountains" probably sounds like "I'm in this mountainous area", while "I am inside the mountains" might sound like you are inside the big rock formation itself. But if you arein a cave inside a mountain, you are in that mountain, and inside that mountain. As a matter of fact. Right?

So, I think we agree, there is no class of spaces that you can be in, but not inside of. That's just incoherent, right?

So it depends on implications and semantics; while the nature of the space impacts that, it doesn't categorically limit it.

"Hey! Have you made it out yet?" "No! I'm still inside!"

I hope we can all agree that that's valid, right? Even though "it" could be any space imaginable?

That was my main point.

The rest was faffing about and poorly communicating it, and accidentally implying I'm very nonstandard, when I'm actually just a little nonstandard and not thrown by this one difference when others use it.

I hope I got myself across this time, else I'm giving up.

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=142339 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=142339 Thu, 16 Nov 2017 01:53:35 +0000 RecruitmentRaichuKFM
Sometimes. Here it is used as a copulative/transitive. (reply)

Continuing in my series of inadvertently taking a dump on your father, he is making a distinction that isn't needed.

Is is very often not transitive. However, in copular form it is, and it is when doing the passive voice.

I continue to correct people on singular they. It doesn't mean it isn't a legitimate form.

A king proclaims "It is I, so and so!"

It'd be be weird if he said "It is me, king so and so!"

When you link two nouns (the copular form) with is, they are of the same case.

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=142337 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=142337 Thu, 16 Nov 2017 01:04:30 +0000 RecruitmentCody Miller
This is fun. (reply)

"Hey dad, how did the Tigers do?"

"Grass is green."

Ostensibly, these have nothing to do with one another, but I, as a human, assume my father is following these maxims, and he is trying to tell me something. Is the grass green because the outfielders barely had to move and Boyd threw a no hitter? Maybe it was a rainout and now the grass is greener. I have to think about what he could mean by that because I assume he is giving me relevant information. This happens.


Heh - my first thought would be that he's saying that the Tigers did what they always do. (I don't know what they always do - maybe they lose a lot, maybe they win a lot. I know nothing about the Tigers. I'm just saying that I'd interpret that response as "Grass is green, water is wet, the Tigers ______.")

That was my initial interpretation too. Human minds are amazingly creative at filling in the blanks when data is missing.

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=142336 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=142336 Thu, 16 Nov 2017 00:53:10 +0000 RecruitmentRobot Chickens
Sometimes. Here it is used as a copulative/transitive. (reply) Continuing in my series of inadvertently taking a dump on your father, he is making a distinction that isn't needed.

Is is very often not transitive. However, in copular form it is, and it is when doing the passive voice.

I continue to correct people on singular they. It doesn't mean it isn't a legitimate form.

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=142335 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=142335 Thu, 16 Nov 2017 00:52:12 +0000 RecruitmentFunkmon
Useless argument. WARNING: basic semantic theory inside (reply)

My bone to pick with Kermit was the suggestion that inside would be indicative of a non-native speaker. There are other logical interpretations that could lead to that usage.

Indeed.

But yeah, this thread has been derailed by dumb excuses like that, as well as misunderstandings about context, when at the end of the day, it's all about a simple concept and perception of what an area is, and the refusal of some people to see things in a broader and more logical manner.


I was with you on this until you said broader and more logical. Systems can have an inherent logic to the users that appears baffling to the outside observer. Inside can be perfectly cromulent to one group and make no sense to another for perfectly valid reasons.

I agree, but I meant logical in the sense that through logic, you can deduce what a person means, even if by definition it is incorrect from your perspective. It's why I said that calling the Cleavers/Axes "Scissors" is perfectly fine, because the people are logically referring to a specific symbol. It's always best to be willing to adapt, and if you accept that "x" will, for the purposes of this specific run, be referred to as "y", then there is zero confusion about what the people mean when they say "y", especially if the other options are "a/b/c".


Stubbornness, however, is a different matter. When approached with other valid interpretations, flexibility or compromise should be valued above all.

+1


That being said, I'm surprised you haven't defended stubbornness as a valid expression under the condition that it elicits the lols. :p

I have standards, man. :P
Defending stubbornness in any manner teeters on defending ignorance and inadaptability, which is a troll's low-hanging fruit.

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=142334 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=142334 Thu, 16 Nov 2017 00:51:55 +0000 RecruitmentKorny
This is fun. (reply)

"Hey dad, how did the Tigers do?"

"Grass is green."

Ostensibly, these have nothing to do with one another, but I, as a human, assume my father is following these maxims, and he is trying to tell me something. Is the grass green because the outfielders barely had to move and Boyd threw a no hitter? Maybe it was a rainout and now the grass is greener. I have to think about what he could mean by that because I assume he is giving me relevant information. This happens.

Heh - my first thought would be that he's saying that the Tigers did what they always do. (I don't know what they always do - maybe they lose a lot, maybe they win a lot. I know nothing about the Tigers. I'm just saying that I'd interpret that response as "Grass is green, water is wet, the Tigers ______.")

But then again, you know your dad better than I do. :)

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=142332 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=142332 Thu, 16 Nov 2017 00:44:55 +0000 RecruitmentClaude Errera
Useless argument. WARNING: basic semantic theory inside (reply)

And the thing is that it doesn't bother me either, because the idea gets across. 90% of the time, I won't say anything when someone makes a mistake, because it's pure pedantry. I'll catch it, yeah (call it an intuition, lol), but I'll only point it out when doing so would be funny to me, and because I know that it annoys the person that it's directed at.
I used that example because it shows that the whole concept of "intuition" with language is false, because someone who should have that so-called intuition clearly doesn't; while someone who doesn't speak English as their first language, and who (in Kermit's mind) has to "learn" it (because it couldn't possibly develop naturally as a result of their learning of the language itself)... does.

It kills me because I agree with much of what you say, yet you coat your arguments with trollish phrases. You know that you are misrepresenting Kermit here. Kermit has suggested that it's hard to blend into the vernacular of a culture until you've spent time gaining fluency (however you want to describe that). I suck at French. I can speak a bit and convince non-native speakers that I'm decent at it, but I will get instantly recognized by those more familiar with French for stumbling across these pitfalls. I'm pretty sure this is the scenario Kermit had in mind. I'm pretty sure he wasn't trying to make a universal rule that suggested non-native english speakers cannot develop fluency or even surpass native speakers.

My bone to pick with Kermit was the suggestion that inside would be indicative of a non-native speaker. There are other logical interpretations that could lead to that usage.

But yeah, this thread has been derailed by dumb excuses like that, as well as misunderstandings about context, when at the end of the day, it's all about a simple concept and perception of what an area is, and the refusal of some people to see things in a broader and more logical manner.

I was with you on this until you said broader and more logical. Systems can have an inherent logic to the users that appears baffling to the outside observer. Inside can be perfectly cromulent to one group and make no sense to another for perfectly valid reasons.

Stubbornness, however, is a different matter. When approached with other valid interpretations, flexibility or compromise should be valued above all.

That being said, I'm surprised you haven't defended stubbornness as a valid expression under the condition that it elicits the lols. :p

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=142330 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=142330 Thu, 16 Nov 2017 00:29:53 +0000 RecruitmentRobot Chickens
Useless argument. WARNING: basic semantic theory inside (reply)

S V O
This is us

Is is not a transitive verb dude. It doesn't take a direct object. It links two nouns that are the same.

My father taught english. When someone asked if he was speaking on the phone, he'd reply "This is he".

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=142329 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=142329 Thu, 16 Nov 2017 00:29:24 +0000 RecruitmentCody Miller
Useless argument. WARNING: basic semantic theory inside (reply)

Yeah, I won't say that Kermit is coming off as pretentious... but it does seem a bit prejudiced; being a native speaker does not grant you a superior and/or innate understanding of language.

Actually it does. It's built into the definition. A native English speaker has an intuitive understanding of English, learned it at a young age, speaks a dialect, and is productive.

You gave examples of poor writing from English speakers. You'll find that Claude and me is a perfectly fine usage, albeit an exception to the normal writing rule. Claude and I is nonstandard, and breaks the speaking rule of using me in a plural verb.

Me is actually all right to use in an impersonal verb, like methinks, or as a verb ellipsis, like saying "me too," in other words, "me can ___ too."

"Me and myn ayres..haue releissit..al my rycht clayme persuit chalenge or askyng..to fourty markis worth of land." This is from the Douglas book, in 1885. Jane Austen used this form. Everybody uses this form.

This, like the impersonal verb and verb ellipsis, is just another exception in the pronoun usage where it's used in a plural verb form. This is well known, well documented, and a common feature of all major forms of English.

This is a product of fairly recent efforts to standardize English, and usually identifiable as one man's idea. The split infinitive Cody came up with is anonymous, but if I recall correctly, this specific issue of a plural verb me came up with Robert Lowth, a poet who was interested in applying Latin grammar rules to English, which he knew was an issue, but it resulted in nice poetic sentences using emulations of the oblique case and stuff. His book on the subject, not written for English learners, but those interested in grammar analysis, was adapted as a style guide, and so some of this became entrenched in writing, but not in speaking.

The difference in writing and speaking what are supposed to be the same language is called diglossia. Any foreign speaker can write in English fairly, well, but there is an intuition about actual rules of the language, as opposed to split infinitives and the non-standard use of I in plural verb form construction built into native speakers. Non native speakers don't have it, by definition.

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=142327 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=142327 Thu, 16 Nov 2017 00:20:18 +0000 RecruitmentFunkmon
Welcome Brother (reply) You've passed the schism test.

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=142324 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=142324 Thu, 16 Nov 2017 00:11:07 +0000 RecruitmentRobot Chickens