Imagine if I actually knew what I was doing in that clip...

As someone who works in a SAAS company, we prioritize requests (generally) by
1. Fixes that have broken the software
2. Features that get us more customers
3. Features that keep our customers
4. Features

The shader problem is 3 or 4. There is far more time spent on 1 and 2 for Bungie right now.

This isn't specifically about the shaders. Bungie is slow to adapt and implement any changes (unless it is closing an exploit that gets you gear!). They are slow to move on just about everything.

That feels like a generalization to me. They are held back by server side changes, which they can do instantly, which is what they did for Bureaucratic walk by removing it from being purchased. And local changes, which have to go through a large QA/testing team, not only from Bungie but from XBox as well.

After what was detailed in HandMade Con regarding the mistakes they made in Destiny's design resulting in changes and additions being very painful, you would think that they would have decided not to repeat that mistake, and design Des2ny to be robust and flexible when it comes to fast or frequent changes. Other companies with online games are able to respond much more quickly, so it simply looks bad when issues go unaddressed. No one issue is super major, but it's death by 1000 cuts.

I don't know what to say about what you consider "slow" as well as what other companies consider "quickly". Every fix is dependent on so many factors. Engine, employees, platform, just to name a few. I'm not saying that Bungie hasn't made mistakes, but I feel like Bungie has done a good job at reacting to actual game breaking problems.

And when Bureaucratic Walk happened I distinctly remember they didn't fix the actual issue right away. They simply canceled Trails!

They fixed it within a couple weeks as I recall. Canceled trials because they didn't want it to affect everyone as well as took it off the store. That is as best as any development team can do.

As someone who works in a SAAS company, we prioritize requests (generally) by
1. Fixes that have broken the software
2. Features that get us more customers
3. Features that keep our customers
4. Features

The shader problem is 3 or 4. There is far more time spent on 1 and 2 for Bungie right now.

This isn't specifically about the shaders. Bungie is slow to adapt and implement any changes (unless it is closing an exploit that gets you gear!). They are slow to move on just about everything.

After what was detailed in HandMade Con regarding the mistakes they made in Destiny's design resulting in changes and additions being very painful, you would think that they would have decided not to repeat that mistake, and design Des2ny to be robust and flexible when it comes to fast or frequent changes. Other companies with online games are able to respond much more quickly, so it simply looks bad when issues go unaddressed. No one issue is super major, but it's death by 1000 cuts.

And when Bureaucratic Walk happened I distinctly remember they didn't fix the actual issue right away. They simply canceled Trails!

Why are those choices mutually exclusive? Spend the 100 hours for the band-aid, then redesign the underlying system. At least players have relief in the meantime.

They're not mutually exclusive, but anyone that is familiar with programming will know there is one resource that is the most valuable over all others: man-hours. If they provide a band-aid that is hundreds of man-hours (also notice the 's' on there) that is NOT going into a different new feature, or even fixing the overall system for something that will be temporary. I don't know any developers that would decide to provide a band-aid like that unless the problem was completely ruining the product.

Things change when your game is now apparently a Software-as-Service. Who wants to use a service when problems aren't promptly addressed?

Because this "problem" is relative to the user. The "problem" is actually functionally as intended. It's just that it's not up to par to what people want. There have been far greater problems in Destiny that Bungie has been all over. For instance the Bureaucratic Walk emote problem or the infinite tether problem. Those were problems because they broke the game. This is just something that people are annoyed with, don't like, or hate.

As someone who works in a SAAS company, we prioritize requests (generally) by
1. Fixes that have broken the software
2. Features that get us more customers
3. Features that keep our customers
4. Features

The shader problem is 3 or 4. There is far more time spent on 1 and 2 for Bungie right now.

If there's one thing I stand for, it's that tone matters as much or maybe even more than content. Especially in a non-realtime forum that lacks conversational clues. I think if we did a fair analysis, we'd find that most people agree with Korny's poinst, but very strongly disagree with the way he makes them and with the little digs he often includes.

Play a little bit with Korny. Whenever I read his posts, I picture his little "heh heh" laugh afterwards. Then I know he doesn't mean it.

I have actually been playing with Korny more often these days and my head says he is the same person, but then I get on the forums and keep doubting that there isn't someone controlling his handle. Honestly, they are like completely different people.

Or they’re taking the piss out of themselves.

Yeah, making comments like them saying they are "lauding" it is a big part of the reason they are less fun publicly as a company now.

That's not really true. It's a very tiny part to be honest.

The big part is their leadership and their publisher.

If there's one thing I stand for, it's that tone matters as much or maybe even more than content. Especially in a non-realtime forum that lacks conversational clues. I think if we did a fair analysis, we'd find that most people agree with Korny's poinst, but very strongly disagree with the way he makes them and with the little digs he often includes.

Play a little bit with Korny. Whenever I read his posts, I picture his little "heh heh" laugh afterwards. Then I know he doesn't mean it.

Personally, I don't want to have to dig through goads and hyperbole and minor insults just to get to the actual, agreeable point. Further, I don't think the reaction you see is based on this one thread, but is the release of months of frustration at Korny's posting style. It's not hard to find where others have asked him to tone it down over the past few months.

I guess I want to clarify that I'm not necessarily trying to sail in to defend him, he's a big boy and he doesn't need my help on that. But I guess I'm just surprised at the extent of the reaction. I too sometimes hate the stuff I hear coming out of him about Bungie because I don't want it to be true. But that doesn't mean that it isn't.

Again, the validity of his points, in this thread especially (where I think they were very valid), are being overshadowed and smothered beneath the way he interacts. And I have no problem with that. I think anyone who goes out of their way to post in a disagreeable way deserves some large amount of backlash.

The good news is, I don't think anyone is permanently mad at Korny. We're just asking him to be less goading. I think if he were to follow through he'd get a lot of agreement with his points of view.

The thing I don't see Korny doing that has become a trend among a large swath of the Destiny-playing public is become embittered and tear down the game/dev at every turn for trivialities, or better yet, at one's own (over)investment in the game.

Uh, not touching whether it's right or wrong, that's exactly what the entire thread started about.

A humorous gif and a shrug is a crap way to explain why you are constantly so abrasive to everyone. It’s a cop out. It’s ignoring responsibility. It is just further antagonizing the people who legitimately want to know what your issue is.

I'll agree that it's no explanation.

But I think most of us remain here for the same reasons. I don't know why people take Korny's tone to heart about things. Has Korny ever cut someone down for being a fan of Bungie or Destiny? Because if that happened I missed it. Generally when he expresses a point of view that I don't share (which is most of the time); he still makes good arguments for feeling that way. I would say the same thing about you, Raga. I'm pretty confident in saying that about most of us here.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but don't we all generally value differing viewpoints, particularly when considering criticism of something we care about?

I think most of us are pretty familiar with the notion that Bungie are their own harshest critics. And I don't think there's anything wrong with taking a hard look at something that one wants to improve and being fearless in expressing the ways it can be better. The thing I don't see Korny doing that has become a trend among a large swath of the Destiny-playing public is become embittered and tear down the game/dev at every turn for trivialities, or better yet, at one's own (over)investment in the game.

Have we regressed recently into personal attacks or insults? I've admittedly stayed out of a lot of these discussions because frankly I don't care about shaders or how they're changing. They exist in my life and within my playstyle just fine. So forgive me if I'm weighing in only partially educated on this; but as I said at the beginning, I think we all hang out here for the same reasons. There's a history and a habit (and, I hope, a camraderie among us) of high-fidelity discourse that doesn't happen elsewhere.

I guess I want to clarify that I'm not necessarily trying to sail in to defend him, he's a big boy and he doesn't need my help on that. But I guess I'm just surprised at the extent of the reaction. I too sometimes hate the stuff I hear coming out of him about Bungie because I don't want it to be true. But that doesn't mean that it isn't.

~m

Man, I didn’t know that. I was hoping for a more back to basics thing from Bungie. Trying to make games that have a soul. Crucible is relatively soulless, but I have fun with it. I enjoy the Leviathan, and I really really like Eater of Worlds. But Destiny 2 may as well be more of D1 at this point. In so many bad ways. Especially with respect to our time. I hope that a company and its backing for Bungie won’t lead to the stuff you’re implying.

Look up NetEase and judge for yourself.

The article, the comments, all of it. I have put zero time into this event. I won’t buy Forsaken on day one. I absolutely am waiting for the reviews. And holy cow, I hope Forsaken ends up being good. If this thing fails, bury Destiny.

The thing that I find amusing is that you will probably hit 400 in less than 30 minutes while playing Forsaken for the first time, since the cap is 600. So the only reason to do it is if you somehow LIKE the grind. I might play through the remixed campaign missions, but the armor will stay green.

Bingo. I’ve had a fun enough time doing Crucible and Raids on occasion. Not even at 370 light. I want New Spindle, but I can wait until later. We already rock the Raid mechanics without it, gun would just be gravy at this point. Not wasting time on this weak event (clarification edit: Solstice), and didn’t need the article I linked to to make that choice. Such a focus on this thread on shaders. Shaders could be the straw that broke the camel’s back for people. Easier to dismiss anger than get where it’s coming from, though. D2 wastes a ton of player time by design. Oh and before the accusations come out, nope, I’m not mad in the slightest. You don’t see me grinding away and wasting my time. I got fooled enough in D1 and just long enough after D2 launch to learn from it. Doesn’t mean others out there, be it here at DBO or around the internet or not posting at all anywhere (or playing anymore as a result of all of this) aren’t upset or concerned.

Next game in a new IP please.

You mean the one they are developing with the financial backing of a company that generally makes shitty free to play online games? A company that runs portals devoted to monetization? Sounds good, sign me up!

Man, I didn’t know that. I was hoping for a more back to basics thing from Bungie. Trying to make games that have a soul. Crucible is relatively soulless, but I have fun with it. I enjoy the Leviathan, and I really really like Eater of Worlds. But Destiny 2 may as well be more of D1 at this point. In so many bad ways. Especially with respect to our time. I hope that a company and its backing for Bungie won’t lead to the stuff you’re implying.

The article, the comments, all of it. I have put zero time into this event. I won’t buy Forsaken on day one. I absolutely am waiting for the reviews. And holy cow, I hope Forsaken ends up being good. If this thing fails, bury Destiny.

The thing that I find amusing is that you will probably hit 400 in less than 30 minutes while playing Forsaken for the first time, since the cap is 600. So the only reason to do it is if you somehow LIKE the grind. I might play through the remixed campaign missions, but the armor will stay green.

Next game in a new IP please.

You mean the one they are developing with the financial backing of a company that generally makes shitty free to play online games? A company that runs portals devoted to monetization? Sounds good, sign me up!

But Bungie's not the only developer that I follow, yet only Bungie seems to stumble so consistently over the dumbest no-brainer issues. Even 343 industries has spent the past few years crawling out of the hole that they dug themselves into, to great results.

What? While this entire thread has been hilarious, I will be the judge of this last statement. I am the 343 expert, after all. And there’s some H4 BS going on with MCC playlist structure right now. But that’s for another time! You stick to wrecking Bungie on the clear and obvious bullshit. Stay outta my 343 territory. :P

All jokes and fun aside, this link here is a great example of how others view the total time sink that is Destiny. Sure, shaders are a small thing and maybe not that big a deal (at least not to those here, apologists or not), but hey. It all adds up.

https://kotaku.com/destiny-2-s-new-grind-for-400-level-armor-is-no-joke-1828139482

The article, the comments, all of it. I have put zero time into this event. I won’t buy Forsaken on day one. I absolutely am waiting for the reviews. And holy cow, I hope Forsaken ends up being good. If this thing fails, bury Destiny. Next game in a new IP please.

So when's that 1v1 again?

Make an event! We'll set something up.